Missing Twin Squirrel: Wales/Ireland

[gulliBell]

A warning to all those gung ho PPL's: If you don't have a s a minimum - an IMC rating and have retained IMC currency (suggest every week) then going IMC is probably your last activity as a mortal!

The switched on PPL, is the one who avoids bad weather like the plague.



At the very least every PPL should do inadvertent IMC as part of their training; having experienced that should discourage them from pushing the weather too hard and risk going IMC.

[nigelh]

Gullibell . 👏👏 It seems to be just you and me thinking that is a good idea to be part of the course and not just something that maybe you and I were lucky enough to get !
In fact it appears everyone else has NO ideas other than more rules that don't work ...

[[email protected]]

Agreed but then you'd have to have an instructor with an IR and an IFR aircraft to do it in legally.

Given how many people learn on R22s and are taught by hours-building junior instructors, that might be difficult to guarantee.

Plus you need the right weather to do it in.

[gulliBell]

As much as I'm one for advocating that a safety conscious mindset begins with knowledge and compliance with the rules under which we operate, the fact of the matter is "operational flexibility" intervenes which, for whatever reason, blurs the lines between what you can, and perhaps what you shouldn't, do. The pressure to get the job done, whether that pressure is real or implied, whether it comes from the employer, or the client, or from colleagues, or simply from oneself. The lines do get blurred out there in the operational space. That is, until one day you're faced with a situation that crystalizes those blurred lines into sharp reality and you wished you'd made a better choice earlier.

In the case of this twin-squirrel accident, the 5 victims were all family, heading to a family wedding. It is very sad and regrettable that they ended up where they did. Ultimately, the decisions that were made that put them where they were can't be taken back. Aviation can be unforgiving, sometimes you don't get a 2nd chance.

[ShyTorque]

ST - that is a mindset issue, not something limited to PPL. Check-out the AAIB database and you will see similar arrogant, or over-confident, calls also being made by CPL and ATPL holders and, given the material you are reading from, that the consequences thereof are no respecter of license type.

I never mentioned anything about license type. :confused:

I can assure you I have been reading the AAIB reports for many years.

[gulliBell]

Agreed but then you'd have to have an instructor with an IR and an IFR aircraft to do it in legally.
.

Yes, and this is the problem. To get training value out of it you really need to do inadvertent IMC in cloud, and not in VMC with foggles. I've had experienced pilots but with newly minted IR, where for the whole of their IFR training never went close to a cloud, on day 1 of the IFR job as soon as they get into cloud for the first time things are totally out of control within about 30 seconds.

[birmingham]

Yes, and this is the problem. To get training value out of it you really need to do inadvertent IMC in cloud, and not in VMC with foggles. I've had experienced pilots but with newly minted IR, where for the whole of their IFR training never went close to a cloud, on day 1 of the IFR job as soon as they get into cloud for the first time things are totally out of control within about 30 seconds.

Well said. I notice we are assuming he didn't have an IR or have I missed a post? Thing is - even if he did - the only way to be comfortable in that sort of weather is to have worked "two up" in a rated machine with regular IMC over many many hours. In the real world most PPL(H) guys can't get that sort of experience- so probably safer not to bother, just make absolutely sure they keep out of such conditions. "A little knowledge" can be a dangerous thing.

[Thomas coupling]

I know this is thread drift but if it means just one newbie sitting up and learning something that may save his life one day...read on.

I'm not sure I understand what Nigelh is saying when he mentions that we already have enough rules so what else is out there to protect the new guy on the block??
Scud running or mountain flying in bad weather or going IIMC are all recipes for disaster. Asking some 'mate' who tells you he's done it before - to demonstrate each of these will serve no purpose and if you won't or can't accept this, you need to read on.
Those who understand, have already transitioned to becoming a competent and professional aviator.

Here's why:
Apart from the fact scud running is dangerous (even illegal in some circumstances)....(ask the pilot who crashed in Vauxhall), it benefits no-one. Not you, nor the guy coming the other way thinking the same tactic.
Flying in mountains in bad wx is an emergency and should only be attempted by those who put their own lives at risk to save others.
IIMC is the quickest way to CFIT for inexperienced pilots.
Asking your mate or employing an IRI and borrowing an IFR cab to 'experience' IIMC serves no purpose because controlled flight in IMC is an art form which can only be sustained by constant, regular practice - atleast several hours of actual monthly 'hands on' to retain your scan and SA. A demo, every other year for a few minutes is a complete and utter waste of everyone's time and money.
So a partial response to: "what;s out there" other than the rules which forbid you from doing any of this, I would suggest a cautious knowledgeable grounded attitude to aviation in general, starting with no experience but lots of rules to keep you on the straight and narrow and eventually as you gain more experience and quals - practice - loads and loads of practice in a safe environment. This means applying to go on courses like IMC, mountain flying, display, water landings etc etc, whatever makes you curious.
Remember the saying: There are plenty of bold pilots and plenty of old pilots but hardly any old AND bold pilots.
Helicopters can get you into places FW dream of but there's the rub......it takes additional effort to get you out of there, too. That's why a helicopter pilot tends to explore a greater range of expertise than a FW pilot might need to, I would suggest. Helo flying is 3D, FW is 2D. (most of the time):)

[nigelh]

That is just daft !! Why is this the case ? I could show them IFR almost daily in Yorkshire !!
Edit ... This is in response to IR pilots not getting to ever fly in actual IR .... Not to TC .!!

TC .... I hear you but those of us who like the idea of taking a new ppl " inadvertent IFR " do not think they will learn anything about flying IFR !! I think the point is that they very likely don't know just how bad it would be for them . When I did it I landed in the certain knowledge that I would be toast flying IFR for any length of time ..... and I actually found instrument flying really quite easy !!!! ( hood )

[[email protected]]

Is that IFR as in I Follow Roads/Rivers/Railways?;)

[[email protected]]

Of course in Yorkshire it would be AHFT'R

[Thomas coupling]

Fersakerly Crab...Nigel I am assuming your tongue is well and trully in your cheek

[nigelh]

TC .... Most of the time it is ...but not this time !!
When you teach your son to drive a car and he passes his test and goes off on his own in the pouring rain ....... Do you feel better that you took him into a field and showed him how you can feel when the car is about to skid . Maybe you let him over cook it and spin the car and show him how he was powerless to stop it spinning ? Then you hope he thinks of that when he is on the road ..... Forewarned .
With helicopters we have none of this . We train in good weather . We land at prepared sites . We practice loads of engine off autos etc which are fun , but quite frankly the very least thing likely to kill you !! We pass our test .
Then alone we go to friends houses , unprepared and we fly home into a front . This is possibly the first time we have ever flown in bumpy cloudy weather , albeit keeping 500ft ..just .
That is not the way I first flew with my licence I can tell you !!
But you stay happy with the system that you think is working so well ....

[Sir Korsky]

It's all down to the individual I'm afraid. Some folks just need to learn the hard way for themselves. I've had private students that I'd toss the keys to a $5m ship and guys with 20 years commercial experience that I wouldn't let wash the screens. All we can do as a community is to try and make our experience pubic and hopefully those that are reachable become educated. As a private pilot you'll pretty much do anything to go flying. Most of the commercial guys that have some scope to reject missions without reprisals, will always veer with the safety card and decline flights when the SMS score is off the charts. It's not done to inconvenience the customers, it's done because it's the right thing to do. Don't be a hero, just say no. There's always tomorrow - just make sure you keep the option open.

[Peter-RB]

Alpha,

There are many new PPL's who want to fly Rotary that would have great difficulty in riding a two wheeler, money and paying more dose'nt really get to the point,, how many people have a sack full of cash and no brainpower to decide what they want...;)

[rotorspeed]

I'm with TC and no doubt several others on this one - I do not think VFR pilots undertaking a bit of IMC experience/light training will help in an emergency IMC situation. And indeed is likely to make some more cavalier in such weather.

It is not that difficult, in a pre-planned exercise with an instructor alongside, maintaining straight and level on instruments for a while. Turning, climbing and descending a bit too. However the difficulty escalates massively when thrust into the reality of using those tentative skills in anger on your own - because you've entered IMC inadvertently. Firstly there is the panic of being in an emergency situation. Now you're really on your own. And the circumstances are completely different to a nice little exercise - to even be in this situation the weather is seriously ****ty and ground beneath you unsuitable for a landing - otherwise you would have done. So now, amidst major stress, those nice little control inputs that kept you close to a target attitude and heading in your IMC experience are getting increasingly large and the whole deal has got massively more challenging. Quite probably too challenging - and disaster is seconds away.

But say you manage to stay calm enough to maintain control - now there are a load of things to think about - on top of keeping that attitude and heading in tolerance. What's the surrounding terrain like? Which direction must you head to avoid high ground and obstacles? Is your climb rate high enough to avoid them? The chances are you've been so preoccupied groping along semi VFR that you've not got any clear idea of where or how you can climb to MSA safely and start to settle down. Look at the chart to see? Forget it! Even glancing at a moving map will be a huge challenge. But say then you get to MSA safely. Now what? Where is there good enough weather to do a safe let down? How will you know? Have you got enough fuel to get there - and try several times?

Then the chances are such VFR pilots are in a single engine, VFR machine, and probably don't have an autopilot, which massively increases the workload. Indeed a u/s autopilot renders single pilot IMC operation illegal in Europe, even for IR pilots, so what chance has a VFR pilot got in this situation?

And so it goes on. IFR flying requires a whole load more thought and planning than VFR - it's not just the aircraft control.

No, I'm afraid I advocate a policy of VFR pilots just never ever getting IMC inadvertently. It's not that hard. Keep to (legal) limits that you're comfortable with, go lower and slower until you reach them, and then either turn back or land. But never lose visual contact with that precious ground!

[Thomas coupling]

Hear hear rotorspeed.
Nigelh If I was to use your analogy of teaching your son to drive a car, I would compare apples with apples. IE, the equivalent of going IIMC (don't confuse IMC with your IFR) in your sons circumstances would be like asking him to drive in the pitch black with all the lights off and at relatively high speed (70+kts = 80mph).
I challenge anyone other than a very well trained and current expert to achieve that.

Flying IMC safely is a perishable skill. Don't practice regularly and you'll find you have to start almost from scratch the first time you try it after a long lay off.

Sir Korsky - aahh the pilot who knows when to say no. Of course we all have that choice don't we. Tell that to the wife of the deceased pilot who flew his boss into the ground during that private IMC departure from a field about 5 years ago. The boss didn't threaten him with the job did he? The Chelsea chairman crash in 1996.......not that easy in real life I'm afraid if you are either a corporate pilot, or, for that matter, an EMS pilot in the USA

[Sir Korsky]

Sir Korsky - aahh the pilot who knows when to say no. Of course we all have that choice don't we. Tell that to the wife of the deceased pilot who flew his boss into the ground during that private IMC departure from a field about 5 years ago. The boss didn't threaten him with the job did he? The Chelsea chairman crash in 1996.......not that easy in real life I'm afraid if you are either a corporate pilot, or, for that matter, an EMS pilot in the USA

You've pretty much described why no job is worth your life. We had to fight hard for a change in perspective where I work TC. There were many lessons learned that now adorn our SOPs. We almost found out the hard way a few times. Belittle me if you like, but I take no pleasure from reading accident reports, especially if they were totally avoidable in the first place.

Maybe somebody needs to take over from where Gary left off.

http://www.helicoptersafety.org/safetyevenings.asp

[Arfur Dent]

How many more examples will there be whereby intelligent (non qualified) passengers in light aircraft would rather die than ask the "Captain" what the hell he is doing?? How many times will said Captain persuade himself that all is well when he knows that he's in big trouble and he's unsure what, if any, his solution is to this self induced problem.
As others have said - have a Plan B/C , don't go IMC unless you are trained and current, turn back early and keep away from mountains in bad weather.

[nigelh]

Rotorspeed .... Thanks , but you say it like I don't agree with you !! All you say is in agreement with me .....but maybe you are just not reading it !!
Last word is that I believe a scripted inadvertent IFR expedition for a low time pilot , under supervision, will make him a safer pilot . He will then be under no illusions that he could brave his way out . It is certainly the effect it had on me 35 years ago and I haven't gone into cloud since without supervision to this day .
Maybe your right and I'm wrong but we can agree we all want the same thing !!

[gulliBell]

I'm with TC and no doubt several others on this one - I do not think VFR pilots undertaking a bit of IMC experience/light training will help in an emergency IMC situation. And indeed is likely to make some more cavalier in such weather.


The context of suggesting the inadvertent IMC training is not to impart the handling skills necessary to depart from the inadvertent IMC, but to impart better decision making in the first place so as not to require the handling skills they don't have.

[cyclic flare]

stop bashing the PPL's some of them are extremely good pilots. I fly and train with both PPL and commercial pilots.

One thing for sure is I keep reading about twin engine commercially operated machines crashing in poor weather a lot more so than PPL's recently,

It's a very sad situation - let's let the AAIB do there job and then we can comment.

Oh and maybe we should put an experience restriction on posting on here too!

[Cows getting bigger]

Does anyone actually know the level of experience/qualifications/currency this particular pilot had or have that last few pages been based on the assumption of "rich-bloke-fancy-toy"?

[SFIM]

Mr Cows, his experience was briefly mentioned by me in #79

[[email protected]]

Cows - I'm not sure it matters whether he had 100 hrs or 10,000 or whether he was PPL orATPLIR - it appears he planned to make a flight in poor weather, with few options, under self -imposed pressure to make a family gathering. It was his decision-making process that was at fault and, as we have discussed frequently, it is not just low-time pilots who make crap decisions.

Scardy - what you describe is flying supervision, something that may be available if you work for a company with experienced pilots but is generally sadly lacking in private flying. Having someone to look at your plan with a fresh pair of eyes and no self-imposed pressures and who is prepared to be honest about your ability to perform the flight in the prevailing conditions can be the difference between life and death.

[mary meagher]

SFIM, you only posted that he was "greatly experienced". Hours and currency not specified. I had a FW PPL IR, with probably about 30 hours total actual IMC. And more than once chickened out when the forecast did not agree with actual weather encountered. Much easier to chicken out when you are by yourself.

[Cows getting bigger]

crab@..., I agree. I was just that we appeared to have gone down a particular rabbit hole.

[mickjoebill]

All we can do as a community is to try and make our experience pubic and hopefully those that are reachable become educated.

Talking works!

I was educated about a particular private operator with a twin IFR helicopter whom, I was told, would unnecessarily fly into crap weather rather than wait it out.

That advice I took seriously and steered clear of a commercial involvement with that operator. Sadly, two years later he perished in very poor weather on a mission where I may have been a passenger.


Mickjoebill

[Kawa1400]

I have known this pilot for 20 years, he was a friend, I am not a pilot but find this thread very interesting, I suppose it is the wanting to known what could of gone wrong.

Reply 180 states he was at 2700ft between 1227 and 1253 wouldn't that put him IMC if he was IMC at 2300ft?

If so then it was not an 'inadvertent' IMC more a MSA issue ??

Would that not be a "off course" issue, looking at the google earth map it looks like the last major hill to cover before water ?

Just so Ive said it, I do not understand 6 family members, snowdonia then water with adverse weather - just doesn't compute with the man that I knew

[Delta Torque]

Sometimes, pilots do the most 'out of character' things. I've lost a few friends over the years, and I've pondered the same thing.

[Mike Flynn]

Knowing the terrain well, the pilots problems would have also involved turbulance plus low cloud base. Why he chose to take a short cut is another matter.

Mountain flying is an art not practiced by low level pilots.

[Thomas coupling]

Mountain flying isn't an art - you don't caress the slopes or ridges. You don't surf the mountain waves. You don't bask in the rotors.
It is an exact science. It's all about calculating speeds, heading heights downdraughts, demarcation lines......

It's true then Jay Sata - you do talk rubbish, it seems.

[Georg1na]

"Mountain flying is an art not practiced by low level pilots."


Absolute meaningless tosh!!

[Mike Flynn]

Perhaps this explains it better.

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/2005/mountain_wave_turbulence/
Mountain wave and associated turbulence
In Australia, mountain waves are commonly experienced over and to the lee of mountain ranges in the south-east of the continent. They often appear in the strong westerly wind flows on the east coast in late winter and early spring.

Mountain waves are a different phenomena to the mechanical turbulence found in the lee of mountain ranges, and can exist as a smooth undulating airflow or may contain clear air turbulence in the form of breaking waves and 'rotors'. Mountain waves are defined as 'severe' when the associated downdrafts exceed 600 ft/min and/or severe turbulence is observed or forecast.

'Breaking waves' and 'rotors' associated with mountain waves are among the more hazardous phenomenon that pilots can experience. Understanding the dynamics of the wind is important in improving aviation safety.



https://s8.postimg.org/qlu36vdk1/IMG_3406.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/qlu36vdk1/)

https://s8.postimg.org/9zcixskm9/IMG_3407.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/9zcixskm9/)


image hosting over 5mb (https://postimage.org/)

[rotorspeed]

Jay

Are you actually a pilot? What licence do you hold with what appproximate experience, out of interest?

[newfieboy]

Jay
Maybe you should stick to the private pilot forum and keep bashing TCT.
Ain't no art mountain flying in Canada, it's just another day in the office, as long as you have the knowledge a la mountain flying. Maybe you should try long lining drills, seismic , logging in the Rockies. A skill for sure but not an art. Like I said just another day turning and burning.....maybe you can sign up for Canadian Helicopters mountain course in Penticton, probably the best in the World. You might learn a thing or two...:ugh: Or maybe get a hobby, something like angling, you seem pretty good at fishing!!!

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Sometimes, pilots do the most 'out of character' things. I've lost a few friends over the years, and I've pondered the same thing.


Agree - but then there are also pilots who are consistent with bad decisions or bad handling, who get away with it for a while due to luck. Eventually they come a cropper because their luck runs out, not because they did anything unusual for them. Please note this is a general observation rather than a comment on this particular case.

It is an exact science. It's all about calculating speeds, heading heights downdraughts, demarcation lines......


How can it be an exact science? It is impossible to be 100% sure when and where the downdraughting/turbulence/demarcation line will be experienced. I would say that there is definitely some art involved.

[mary meagher]

Jay Sata and Thomas Coupling, and other rotorheads, or power pilots who get nervous flying in mountains, may I recommend a trip to the Deeside Gliding Club in Scotland to broaden your horizons? (Have a look at their website!) Or visit one of the French clubs that can introduce you to Alpine soaring....

No, we don't fly IFR in gliders very often, or not on purpose, but we do use ridge lift and mountain wave to maintain flight, and so acquire with experience a pretty good idea of where is lift and where is sink! And where is rotor....relative to wave bars....clouds that will mark the rising air on the windward side, and the horrible sink or rotor on the lee side of the bar. The wave bar cloud formation, usually saussage shaped, is distinguished by not traveling with the wind, but remaining fairly stationary over the ground, DOWNWIND from the mountain ridge that has created the wave bar. I like to ask beginners to think of a rock in the river, and the ripple that forms DOWNSTREAM from the rock. It (and the wave cloud) will remain fairly stationary and usually has at least three wave bar formations, possibly more in succession less powerful.

When the usual wind from the west comes up against a mountain range, it moves up the slope, creating what we glider pilots call ridge lift. Conversely, on the other side you will find sink, and turbulence. But a strong steady wind from the west will also produce mountain wave on the downwind side of the mountain ridge. So a knowlege of general conditions and prevailing wind direction can be useful.

Glider pilots have achieved over 50,000 feet in mountain wave (with oxygen!!) I managed to get to 20,300 feet at Deeside. That was enough for me.

[[email protected]]

Mary - I feel you completely miss the mark with your post which comes across as rather condescending.

You will find that TC and others here are not 'nervous' about flying in the mountains. Your experience of mountain waves and ridge lift is nothing like having to operate IN the mountains, especially on bad weather days (or nights).

I suspect that if you were taken into the mountains in a helicopter in 20 plus kts of wind you would not enjoy it at all.

BTW guess what subjects are covered in helicopter met lessons both during basic and advanced training and in QHI training (TC is an ex-QHI) - yes mountain waves, rotors, up and downdraughts, anabatic and katabatic winds etc etc etc.

TOTD - agreed, I have flown with many very experienced mountain pilots and there is definitely some 'art' involved especially when considering the modifying effects on the local winds that the features upwind of the one you are flying around have.

[212man]

Mary - I feel you completely miss the mark with your post which comes across as rather condescending.

You will find that TC and others here are not 'nervous' about flying in the mountains. Your experience of mountain waves and ridge lift is nothing like having to operate IN the mountains, especially on bad weather days (or nights).

I suspect that if you were taken into the mountains in a helicopter in 20 plus kts of wind you would not enjoy it at all.

BTW guess what subjects are covered in helicopter met lessons both during basic and advanced training and in QHI training (TC is an ex-QHI) - yes mountain waves, rotors, up and downdraughts, anabatic and katabatic winds etc etc etc.

Beat me to it! Yes; I'm pretty sure TC is not nervous. Respectful, perhaps.

[oldbeefer]

Having been rotary since 1970, I'm still nervous in the mountains (particularly when the wind picks up). But then, I'm still alive!

[Whirlybird]

Mary, as others have pointed out, helicopters are not gliders. Helicopter PPLs should go on a mountain flying course at the very least. Several schools run them; I went on one many years ago, in Snowdonia. We had 40 knot winds for most of the weekend, and despite the highly experienced instructor sitting next to me, I remember it as scary, vomit-inducing, and not to be repeated by choice. I learned a huge amount about dealing with the mountain phenomena that before that were only theoretical, but as a result I chose not to have to unless absolutely necessary. Greatest respect to those like TC and others for whom it IS necessary at times. For the rest of us, in helicopters take the coastal route unless it's a lovely sunny day with light winds and a good forecast...and even then be prepared to divert if necessary.

And I repeat, in case others need to be reminded - helicopters are not gliders!!!

Sorry to go on at such length, but there are too many accidents like this and clearly the point needs to be made many times.

[gulliBell]

I prefer bad weather offshore to fly into 100% of the time compared to bad weather in the mountains...I've been flying over tiger country in the mountains for a while and the pucker factor never goes away, no matter how good the weather, especially if I've only got one engine.

[Sir Niall Dementia]

I did a mountain flying course with Mike Smith (Q's Dad, not the late headset hair) back in the 80's in Snowdonia. At one point we were going up 400 fpm with the needles split in a Hughes 269. I've also seen an S76 around the area of this crash hit nearly full power at 5500 AMSL just to stay level.

I love mountains, but in a helicopter they are best admired from a distance:\

SND

[Thomas coupling]

Si Naiail: Snowdon peaks out @ 3065 feet. Don't say that too loud to any one from the rest of the world, because they'd laugh at you. They trip over this altitude en route to the real mountains in their back yard. But I must add that I have total and complete respect for the hills......absolutely.

Yes I spent 13 years living inside this beautiful but unforgiving terrain near Snowdon but was very lucky indeed to have completed a proper mountain flying qualification on exchange with the CAF many moons ago where the average landing zone was around 15-18000 feet. But the machines we flew could cope (CH124's).

And don't even quiz VF over his credentials - he makes all of us look like newbie's!:ok:

Mary - I occasionally spoke to those glider wallah's near Deeside as I traversed their zones. I bet if you were honest - you'd admit that when in fact you did soar at 20000 feet - you did it without oxygen, didn't you?:eek:

[jimf671]

... Don't say that too loud to any one from the rest of the world, because they'd laugh at you. They trip over this altitude en route to the real mountains in their back yard. ...

Yes, they do, but often 300km to 1000km from a nice warm ocean. A large part of the problem with British and Norwegian hills, whether you are on the ground or in the air, is that the air comes in from a cold ocean and straight onto them.

[sudden twang]

Mary,
Thanks for the lesson the lenticular over Mt Blanc is called the Donkey because it doesn't move for days on end.
Never ridge soared a big helicopter but sat next to a Deeside man whilst he did up A4 alley.
But back to the thread strong winds, mountains and low cloud at or below MSA needs caution.

[newfieboy]

Jim
True, in the case of the Rocks, but be very careful on the Alberta side of them. The mountains in Baffin and en route Alert a different beast altogether. Same with the Tourngats in Labrador, stunning but be careful. Got quite a bit of experience in these, bit of a knee trembler towing a survey bird up and down them contouring at 240ft AGL when the bloody thing on a 180ft line.......:sad:
Most scary for me was years ago flying seismic in Alberta dropping a survey crew off at around 10 grand in a Notar. Got nailed by a downdraft as we were climbing up to the pad. VSI was pegged at the stop....finally got spat at the side.The holy f@ck handles came in handy that day, we were along for the ride....:ok:

[[email protected]]

TC - I think you've knocked off about 500' from the top of Snowdon:)

Is that age-related memory or a typo because you haven't got your glasses on:)

[mary meagher]

To Pilots Crabb, 2l2, and Whirlybird....I apologise for sounding condescending. Please don't ban me from the Rotorhead site, you chaps talk a lot more sense than most who contribute to PP. Especially the pilot who recommended on this forum the pre-briefing of pax to avoid pressure to carry on when better to go to Plan B.

Thomas Coupling, it did take me several attempts to make the oxygen system work correctly. It worked OK eventually, when really needed.

I would never turn down a ride in a helicopter! (I did go for one lesson, at Elstree, and enjoyed it, but too old now to change from FW, that's for sure) My favorite trip was a joy ride down the beach in New Jersey, the aircraft had amazing viz all around, and straight down as well past our feet!

[Whirlybird]

Hey, Mary, I didn't accuse you of being condescending. I just wanted to make the point that helicopters aren't gliders. OK, I've said that enough times now. BTW, I enjoyed your book, which I won at the BWPA Christmas Lunch raffle...so now you'll have worked out who I am, if you didn't know already. ;-)

[Mike Flynn]

Mary - I feel you completely miss the mark with your post which comes across as rather condescending.

You will find that TC and others here are not 'nervous' about flying in the mountains. Your experience of mountain waves and ridge lift is nothing like having to operate IN the mountains, especially on bad weather days (or nights).

I suspect that if you were taken into the mountains in a helicopter in 20 plus kts of wind you would not enjoy it at all.

BTW guess what subjects are covered in helicopter met lessons both during basic and advanced training and in QHI training (TC is an ex-QHI) - yes mountain waves, rotors, up and downdraughts, anabatic and katabatic winds etc etc etc.



Good post Crab but I beg to differ on your last paragraph.

After a decade fixed wing in Wales I obtained my PPL H at Jandakot Perth in 1989.

Waves rotors and downdraughts are not encountered in West Australia.

However I have memories of some pretty nasty ones in NW Wales.

[Mike Flynn]

Jay

Are you actually a pilot? What licence do you hold with what appproximate experience, out of interest?

35 years fixed wing PPL and 27 years helicopter PPL.

Lots of transcontinental flying in Europe,USA and Australia.

All paid for from my own pocket.

Still not sure if that makes me a pilot as it is a learning curve.

What about you?

[Whirlybird]

Mary, but too old now to change from FW, that's for sure I'm pretty sure ex-ATA pilot Lettice Curtis was older than you when she learned to fly helicopters, and got her PPL(H), I think. I believe she was in her 80s, but Lettice was extremely cagey about her age.

[Mike Flynn]

Nice post Whirly.

Whenever someone asks me about flying helicopters I always tell them it is no harder than driving a JCB digger.

I have owned a few of them over the years for purely private recreational landscape work.

I reckon both helicopters and excavators are as useful and dangerous on a par.

Excavator drivers tend to be less self important.

Slightly of topic but I have recently read Mary Meaghers wonderful Flying Granny book on a red eye flight back from Asia.

Happy to post free of charge if someone wants a nice read.

PM me

[[email protected]]

Good post Crab but I beg to differ on your last paragraph. I should have specified it was military helicopter training.

Whenever someone asks me about flying helicopters I always tell them it is no harder than driving a JCB digger. it's not the physical handling of the machinery that is difficult, it is deciding what you will and will not do with it that causes the problems.

Still not sure if that makes me a pilot as it is a learning curve.it certainly makes you a pilot, just not a professional one.:ok:

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Excavator drivers tend to be less self important.

Not my experience. In the last couple of years, a significant number of them who we've landed next to for a chat about their proximity/ lack of safety provision when working near HV electricity cables clearly prove you wrong there, I'm afraid.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

At one point we were going up 400 fpm with the needles split in a Hughes 269


As a first tourist, I remember being surprised to find myself in a hover in a Sea King at approx 19000lbs AUM, lever on the floor, couldn't stop it climbing (not quite 400 fpm admittedly!). Scotland rather than Wales, but same difference really.

[obnoxio f*ckwit]

And in a Wessex in a lovely hover over a ridge line in Wales (I think), in full autorotation, until the realisation dawned that this was a really stupid idea.

[Georg1na]

and an empty Wessex 5 with 60knots in the hover going down at 1000fpm on full power and going up at the same rate in auto. Good fun in good weather with good vis! Bit bumpy though..............

[Al-bert]

And in a Wessex in a lovely hover over a ridge line in Wales (I think), in full autorotation, until the realisation dawned that this was a really stupid idea.

OK - as stupid ideas go - in a Wessex, winter night, cloudbase just above Bryn Poeth, cloud tops 5k ish, request to deploy Oggie MRT as high as possible on Carnedd Dafydd to locate missing Sandhurst Cadet party. "No prob" sez I and proceeded to hover taxi sideways up mountain with section of MRT, Nav in LHS, Winchie in door with Aldis to give tip and tail clearance. Wind quite strong SW'ly, we get to around 3000ft and lever mostly fully down so it's time to get out chaps I say. As last of 'stick' jumps out up we go up like cork out of bottle! "Turn left onto 300 and climb to 5000ft" says Nav calmly (thanks JM!) and so we did (already had 40kts A/S in hover). Came out on top, quick call to Valley approach, asked for cloud break over Menai which we got and went back to repeat with rest of MRT. This time I chucked 'em out 200ft lower and carried out a pre planned climbout. The crew seemed quite happy to carry on flying with me on subsequent shifts, as did the 'troops', and a bunch of Sandhurst cadet were rounded up and walked off the mountain - those were the days! :}

[MightyGem]

It's true then Jay Sata - you do talk rubbish, it seems.
Much as he's done on the NPAS thread

[John Eacott]

Good post Crab but I beg to differ on your last paragraph.

After a decade fixed wing in Wales I obtained my PPL H at Jandakot Perth in 1989.

Waves rotors and downdraughts are not encountered in West Australia.

However I have memories of some pretty nasty ones in NW Wales.

Jay, again you need to look outside your limited box. WA certainly does have wave rotors and downdrafts, albeit not as severe as the Welsh mountains. Glider pilots and the Stirling Ranges spring to mind, odd little ridge lines up Tom Price way, even the Kimberleys can give some difficult turbulence for helicopter ops. If your instructors failed to teach about that as part of your training then they were deficient in preparing you for flying.

Fixed wing in turbulence is quite a different kettle of canaries compared to helicopters, although rigid rotor helicopters do resemble fixed wing reactions. But no doubt you are aware of that?

[Mike Flynn]

John

I appreciate you are a well experienced Aussie helicopter pilot who has flown nice well organised flights
in expensive kit.

With all due respect I paid for my helicopter PPL at Jandakot in 1989 but spent 8 years flying across Wales in a single engine fixed wing aircraft and often in winter at night.

The low end of fixed wing and rotary flying.

Have you ever flown accross the mountains of North Wales,day or night?

The weather can change so quickly in that part of the world which is why so many pilots from England have died trying to cross Snowdonia or the Cambrian mountains.

Australian weather is quite predictable.

Australia does not have rapid weather changes in a matter of under an hour.

You say Jay, again you need to look outside your limited box. WA certainly does have wave rotors and downdrafts, albeit not as severe as the Welsh mountains. Glider pilots and the Stirling Ranges spring to mind, odd little ridge lines up Tom Price way, even the Kimberleys can give some difficult turbulence for helicopter ops. If your instructors failed to teach about that as part of your training then they were deficient in preparing you for flying.

I know from experience the chances of having a helicopter operating there as a private flight in marginal weather is on a par with Bob Hawke becoming Premier again.

This is a recent example of where two commercial pilots flying a state of the art helicopter died.
http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/witnesses-reveal-the-chilling-details-behind-last-year-s-gillingham-crash-1-3992567

The pilot in the accident we are discussing did not set out to kill himself and the passengers.

He just never had the experience or training to warn of the danger ahead if he chose the direct route.
That is what catches pilots out.

VFR flying across the UK is dangerous if you ignore the weather.

It a lot more dangerous at night single engine and single crew.

The odds become even greater flying from Wales to the Channel Islands at night in winter a PA28 or a 172.

Night VFR single engine is risky but very few accidents happen because the aircraft let you down.

I am sure some of my critics who fly for a living in very expensive kit view private pilots flying their own helicopters or fixed wing as cavalier.

If that was the case commercial pilots would never make a mistake such as the one above.

[tigerfish]

We seem to be way off thread over the past two pages!

TF

[Mike Flynn]

We are not Tigerfish because you are not a pilot nor have you ever experienced the sort of rapid weather onset that killed this pilot and his family.

No pilot leaves A to B with the intention of having a rough ride unless they are paid to transport someone.

Private pilots and owners have the luxury of changing course and plans enroute.

I have turned back many times over decades,landed in places I never planned for, and indeed have great memories of journeys that could have become disasters.

This man had the desire to get to his destination despite the weather and died

Tory peer among four killed in helicopter crash - ITV News (http://www.itv.com/news/anglia/story/2016-01-13/tory-peer-among-four-killed-in-helicopter-crash/)

Lord Ballyedmond was 70-years old and one of the richest men in Northern Ireland. He leaves behind a wife and three children.

[John Eacott]

John

I appreciate you are a well experienced Aussie helicopter pilot who has flown nice well organised flights
in expensive kit.

With all due respect I paid for my helicopter PPL at Jandakot in 1989 but spent 8 years flying across Wales in a single engine fixed wing aircraft and often in winter at night.

The low end of fixed wing and rotary flying.

Have you ever flown accross the mountains of North Wales,day or night?


Aware of tigerfish's comment, but yes I am experienced in UK flying: my first PPL was at Stapleford Tawney in 1965. I was hiking the Brecons in 1962, abseiling with the RAF MR as well, before flying all areas of Wales in a later life. I'm a Londoner by birth and didn't come to Australia until 1979.

I even paid for my own flying at times in nice well organised (and less well organised) flights in expensive kit: that I owned and paid for :hmm:

Research is letting you down again.

Australian weather is quite predictable.

Australia does not have rapid weather changes in a matter of under an hour.

You obviously have no idea of the weather in the Australian Alps: where I ran a winter operation for 10+ years.

[Delta Torque]

John,


You always fly in expensive kit. And the aircraft is quite natty, too. You can take the man out of the Royal Navy, but.....

[Mike Flynn]

Sorry to disagree with you John but I am at the lower end of the food chain.

I doubt you have ever experienced how quickly weather in Wales can overcome a single crew private pilot.

I also have flown the low end helicopters such as the Rotorway which makes a Robbo feel like a BMW.

The topic we are discussing here is a single crew private helicopter pilot leaving Southern England in a nice well equipped helicopter with a destination of Dublin with a fuel stop en route.

Sadly he missed the bit in the middle in his flight plan.

Perhaps you can show us how you would flight plan that?

I do appreciate you have substantial multi crew experience ,and have flown the Snowden mountain area from RAF Valley ,but have you ever got in to a sticky situation low level in bad weather as the only pilot up front?

Do you know what it feels like in a small aircraft IMC being thrown around the sky and trying to focus on the panel?

Not nice!

Death staring you in the face.

[Mike Flynn]

John,


You always fly in expensive kit. And the aircraft is quite natty, too. You can take the man out of the Royal Navy, but.....

My son is Royal Navy so lets not go down that route Delta

Done some hairy VFR flights from Nassau to North Eluthra at night single engine in a 172 many years ago.

John is a bit like Dick Smith (well known rich Aussie pilot)

Well planned and not had the hassle of the crap UK weather.

Plus the temptation to fire up and fly when it is just a few steps next to the house.

No need to ask anyone to approve or sanction the flight.

When the aircraft or helicopter is in the garden the urge to go is easy.

[John Eacott]

My son is Royal Navy so lets not go down that route Delta

Done some hairy VFR flights from Nassau to North Eluthra at night single engine in a 172 many years ago.

John is a bit like Dick Smith (well known rich Aussie pilot)

Well planned and not had the hassle of the crap UK weather.

Plus the temptation to fire up and fly when it is just a few steps next to the house.

No need to ask anyone to approve or sanction the flight.

When the aircraft or helicopter is in the garden the urge to go is easy.

I had promised myself not to respond, but you are going too far if that's a reference to me and my flying. You obviously have no idea of my background nor my flying experience in and around the UK and world wide both before and after I migrated to Australia.

The very seldom occasions when I had one of my helicopters in my property were when a job required it, such as positioning prior to a dawn departure for a bushfire job. All others were from one of my bases around the east coast or the Alpine region. Your insinuation that I have no experience of mountain flying and associated conditions is, quite frankly, offensive.

I am well aware of the Welsh mountains and the associated conditions, and (since you ask) had I been flying that route it would have been easy to dogleg around the hills to remain over lower ground and/or coastal. Banging on in the manner that you are does you no credit and, again, makes me question your ability to research a story that you may report upon.

No more from me: I'll get on my motorbike and do something more constructive than discussing this nonsense.

[Mike Flynn]

I think the issues we have John is that you have always been a commercial paid pilot while I have been a private recreational pilot. As a member of the latter group we are more likely to get in to situations and areas that commercial pilots never enter.

I have landed in places in Australia that would horrify you.

The sad fact about the accident we are discussing is that the pilot learnt to fly in a low level
benign weather area. The helicopter he was flying was an easy machine to fly and he was very confident he could reach his destination.

He would not have taken off that day if he felt he could not reach his destination.
.
I am well aware of the Welsh mountains and the associated conditions, and (since you ask) had I been flying that route it would have been easy to dogleg around the hills to remain over lower ground and/or coastal. Banging on in the manner that you are does you no credit and, again, makes me question your ability to research a story that you may report upon.

The suggestion you would "dogleg" around the hills raises questions for me.

I am sure you are well aware of Snowdonia but I question whether you have ever tried to fly it low level in bad weather single pilot?

There is no opportunity to dogleg around the area. It must be avoided at all costs if you want to fly VFR.

[[email protected]]

There is no opportunity to dogleg around the area. It must be avoided at all costs if you want to fly VFR What utter bollocks! Why don't you take your PPL 'horror stories' off to the bar at your local flying club where you can thrill and impress the newbies - on this forum you are dealing with professional pilots (the clue is in its name) and mostly making a bit of a prat of yourself = as you have on the NPAS thread.

[Whirlybird]

There is no opportunity to dogleg around the area. It must be avoided at all costs if you want to fly VFR.

Loads of opportunities actually. But you need to plan for a possible diversion, or know the area well. I suspect he did neither, though we don't actually know that.

[John R81]

Article here (http://www.stewartslaw.com/irish-aviation-community-pauses-to-reflect-on-three-helicopter-accidents-in-march.aspx)mentioning this flight, the coastguard S92 and an R44 accident.

[rotorspeed]

John
Surely hardly an article, in the accepted media sense, but essentially a marketing promotion for Stewarts Law. Don't think this says anything new does it?

[[email protected]]

Not so much an article as blatant advertising for the law firm he works for - and a bit of bigging himself up at the same time.

[Georg1na]

"What utter bollocks! Why don't you take your PPL 'horror stories' off to the bar at your local flying club where you can thrill and impress the newbies"


Well said crab!! I think you and I know the area a bit better than some............!

[Hughes500]

Gentlemen
Think you will find that the guy's surname from Stuarts Law says it all, well thats how he came across when he came to see me !

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Loads of opportunities actually.


I can only think of two - north then west, or west then north ;)

I would usually choose the latter, assuming a typical westerly/south-westerly wind, but I have done both. And gone straight through the middle on various occasions when the weather suited. On one occasion, leaving Valley for a secret airshow in Gloucestershire, the weather was so bad that we had to go all the way round the tip of the Lleyn Peninsula and down the coast past Aberystwyth before the cloudbase lifted enough for us to coast in. All very straightforward of course with big tanks and C**** B***** on the radar :ok:

[birmingham]

I think we need to temper the single pilot PPL(H) VFR debate a little. We don't know the pilot's background yet. While a businessman and flying PPL he may well have had significant experience, military training, IFR etc - we don't know yet. And also - even though I agree everything points to a weather related incident assumptions can be dangerous. There are many businessmen pilots (and commercial pilots) who take unnecessary risks - and likewise many who do not

[Al-bert]

TOTD - the weather was so bad that we had to go all the way round the tip of the Lleyn Peninsula and down the coast past Aberystwyth

Ok, not wishing to willy wave but! DEC 1998 Valley to London with, I presume, a VIP with friends in VERY high places requiring an urgent medevac (liver transplant). Night, cloud cover extensive with embedded cb and down to 300ft over land and sea, snow showers and icing if we'd gone IMC. So, 200 feet, rad alt hold engaged, 3 prs of NVG plus radar right the way down the coast to the Bristol Channel, turn left, two bridges clear so eventually speaking to Heathrow we were able to climb with reported cloud tops of 5000ft. Return journey made with emergency cloud break over Lyneham having gone IMC following the M4 and unable to cross a motorway bridge due to low cloud. Reason for return rather than nite stop? We had the only consultant surgeon and two specialist nurses from Ysbyty Gwynedd on board and they needed 'em back. Craziest job I ever did. :hmm:

[mickjoebill]

Not sure if your question was ever answered, I understand it to be a company decision, to prevent the media from tracking the cabs on missions and harassing the SAR flights.

It's a bit pointless since they can usually be seen via other public means.

Agreed.
Come now, is it likely that a UK network news helicopter will get in the way of a SAR mission?

News helicopters with their 1000mm stabilised lens very occasionally stumble on the subject of a search.

Whilst distressing scenes may be visible from the air, it does not follow that such scenes are always broadcast, quite the contrary.

Public awareness of the role of SAR can be maintained by including air to air video in news broadcasts.


Mickjoebill

[[email protected]]

Not sure if your question was ever answered, I understand it to be a company decision, to prevent the media from tracking the cabs on missions and harassing the SAR flights. Yes that sounds like a PR cover for some other reason, maybe they don't want people to see how much training they are doing:E

[jayteeto]

Can't dogleg around Snowdonia?

Those last two runs I did to Bangor hospital must have been an optical illusion

[toptobottom]

Jay Sata
I am sure you are well aware of Snowdonia but I question whether you have ever tried to fly it low level in bad weather single pilot?

There is no opportunity to dogleg around the area. It must be avoided at all costs if you want to fly VFR.


You are talking complete and utter bollox

[dClbydalpha]

Agreed.
Come now, is it likely that a UK network news helicopter will get in the way of a SAR mission?


A sadly naive view of the problem.

[Kawa1400]

Can I just pass a comment.

As I have said before I am not a pilot but a friend of the pilot and the family that were killed in this accident.

I have read this thread with a view to try and get some understanding or insight into what could of gone so horribly wrong.

The last two or three pages are a revelation, perhaps I expected a professional pilots network would have pilots that have geniune knowledge to impart and a willingness to share, learn or explore different options. I am an intelligent man and understand the early points raised in this thread.

The last few pages just comes across as a 'dick swinging' competition.

I am sorry if I am rude, I don't mean to be. Kevin was a man that did not take unneccesary risks. He owned a business that assembles huge metal structures - he was risk averse in business and cherished his family - I accept that all the available evidence looks like he made a fatal error of judgement - but why

If the point in the reply 180 states that he was above the cloud threshold so IMC at that point. So one could assume on autopilot - the aircraft was fitted with it.

Is there anyway to find out if he turned back ?

With absolutely zero flight knowledge or flying hours get the impression this is a below MSA and a heading issue - he was not on course

Could that be right

Are the accident investigators reports published ?

Thank you for reading this, I apologise if i come across as a jerk, just lost a friend and don't understand why

[Whirlybird]

Kawa1400, I'm really sorry that you lost a friend. The AAIB (Air Accidents Investigation Branch) report will eventually be published. Details here https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/air-accidents-investigation-branch
It looks as though you can sign up to receive email alerts from them; I've never done it, so I don't know how that works. Maybe someone else here will. But I know that reports sometimes take months to be completed.

As for what happened, it's all speculation right now. I do know that even careful people sometimes make mistakes or act out of character. We all do, but only in aviation does it tend to be fatal. I've lost friends that way too.

Did he turn back? The report may be able to comment on that; I'm not sure. They can probably find out which direction the helicopter was facing when it crashed...or maybe not. He could have been off course, especially if the weather was bad, and even a small mistake like that in Snowdonia can be fatal. I really don't know, and I don't have as much experience as some of the people on here.

I'm sorry if you've been upset by some of the comments here. Bear in mind there are all sorts of people on these forums - real experts, some who know rather less, some who know absolutely nothing, plus people who aren't what they pretend to be. Yes, and dick swingers too! It's the internet after all. But one thing most of them have in common, maybe, is a tendency to assume that they're talking only to helicopter flying colleagues, not people like yourself. We shouldn't do that, but it happens.

If you stick around long enough you may find out something useful on here, but don't bank on it.

Sorry I can't be of any more help.

Whirly

[rotorspeed]

What an excellent response Whirly, well done. Really sorry Kawa1400 for your loss, hope Whirly's comments help a bit.

[Kawa1400]

Thanks for your comments

I suppose I am interested, I ride a ZZR1400 motorbike, friends have been in accidents and unfortunately some killed. As a bike rider I can look at the junction, or the aftermath or know the rider and make a pretty educated guess as to what went wrong. I wouldn't of gone that fast on that bend, or that car pulled out etc etc

With this it is the total vacuum of knowledge, I can't 'best guess' what happened and think 'silly mistake, but we all make them', 'you deliberately flew into that knowing a and b, i wouldnt of done it but I see your point' etc etc

As for the internet forum, we are all them, I'm on a bike one, we have the same on that. Thanks for your kind words, I'll sign up for the AAIB updates.

I wont take up anymore of your time - it just the whole - I know this man, he is safe, he has 1000's of hours of flight time, he employs steel erectors who can be bolshie and difficult and can stand his ground, if he didnt want to go he wouldnt of gone, wife nagging or not (as it happens Ruth wasn't like that) - something made him clip the top of that hill, obviously IMC - you dont fly deliberately into a hill you can see - insufficient MSA - again you dont deliberately fly around in hills with your MSA less than the highest one IMC.

Did he think he'd cleared it start descending -

Its just such a waste, a small miscalculation, it looks OK to fly, autopilot set to wrong MSA, a too short glance or incorrect program of nav

Thanks for indulging me, and its been good to read some of your insights

Fly safe

[[email protected]]

A sadly naive view of the problem.
Can you point to a situation when this actually occurred? Even when HRH was flying SAR there was never any harassment or intrusion from news helicopters.

[Ddraig Goch]

Well said Whirly.
Kawa my deepest sympathy for the loss of your friends.
It's a shame that some on these threads loose sight of the fact that the people they are criticsing are just like them with families and friends who care.
As it has been said by others they didn't set out to die.
c

[gulliBell]

...They can probably find out which direction the helicopter was facing when it crashed...or maybe not...

If there was a GPS on-board then the track of the aircraft for the whole of the flight should be recoverable from unit memory, at good resolution, by the manufacturer.

Flying in mountains in reduced visibility can make it difficult to judge whether you are going to clear the ridge line, or not. Given the crash was close to the top of the mountain, it's quite possible he may have thought he was OK, until it was too late. But if you stick to the weather rules for visual flight then you have adequate visual cues for judging height when crossing a ridge line.

There is an optical illusion where you think there is clearance between the cloud base and the ridge line, but in reality the clouds go down to the tree tops on rising terrain. You must be able to clearly see the valley on the other side of the ridge before attempting to cross. Crossing the ridge at an oblique angle is a safer option than flying directly at it, gives you more of an opportunity to turn away at the last moment if you miss judge it.

[birmingham]

I think we need to temper the single pilot PPL(H) VFR debate a little. We don't know the pilot's background yet. While a businessman and flying PPL he may well have had significant experience, military training, IFR etc - we don't know yet. And also - even though I agree everything points to a weather related incident assumptions can be dangerous. There are many businessmen pilots (and commercial pilots) who take unnecessary risks - and likewise many who do not

Kawa - hopefully most of us have tried to avoid rabid speculation. To answer your question the reports will be published at the AAIB website and they are very thorough

Sorry about your friend

[dClbydalpha]

Can you point to a situation when this actually occurred? Even when HRH was flying SAR there was never any harassment or intrusion from news helicopters.

Sad because of the world we live in.
Naive because the issue is not to do with interference it is to do with the value of exploiting information.

Imagine the following scenario.

Person A, looking at his tablet notices interesting activity involving SAR assets.
They see it is close to them so wander up the local hill with their radio scanner.
Listening in they find the comms and over hear the casualty has serious head injuries. The subsequent transmissions contain further medical and casualty details.
Person A provides info to a website, who know that breaking news creates clicks, and clicks create money, and have no qualms about publishing.
Consequence one : NoK find out their loved one's condition from the internet.
Consequence two: The SAR agency is scrutinised to establish if they took all reasonable precautions to protect personal information. Recommendations are made for future.

There are other scenarios involving lawyers and "experts". I won't even go in to that waste of everyone's time.

End result SAR agency is careful over any broadcast information.

I don't know if the above is the case here, but the general public don't need to know these minute by minute movements of SAR assets, so why choose to make it available? Those that need the info get the info. The rest, at best, is voyeurism.

[[email protected]]

That seems the extremes of paranoia and supposes that the rescue is in an easily accessible location - it would be much easier to do with an air ambulance rather than a SAR aircraft.

The simple answer is secure comms - airwave can't be picked up on scanners and any decent wireless aircraft to crew comms shouldn't be either. Names should never be mentioned over the air either so your scenario isn't likely at all.

Knowing where a SAR aircraft is doesn't compromise anything - the public pay for it so why shouldn't they have access to such information unless there really is something to hide.

[dClbydalpha]

Secure comms as much as possible was also a recommendation. But it requires the other end to have the same. That's not always an option. TETRA is not available to most people and so sometimes you have to resort to standard comms, TETRA also doesn't have perfect coverage. Analogue vs digital is a debate not to be had here as the thread may have drifted far enough already.

Tight protocol is another, but again not everyone is part of the SAR organisation.

Accessibility is only a matter of LOS at any particular moment.

I pay for police, fire, ambulance, refuse collection ... I have no desire to track them. As I say, those that need to can, the rest is voyeurism. To think they "may be hiding something" now that is extreme paranoia.

The scenarios are not hypothetical, so your opinion of the likelihood is of no relevance. Whether UK SAR considered them I have no idea. I was simply offering my view that other SAR operators have answering a specific question earlier in the thread.

[jimf671]

A few years ago I was spending the day at ARCC Kinloss and I had a conversation about comms with the duty controller. This was a former SAR Force SK pilot and SH Chinook pilot. "I'm not interested in talk-groups and all that stuff. I just want to press the button and talk and everyone understands what's going on." :cool:

What I take from that is that situational awareness is a valued commodity in SAR scenarios and that there are enough complicated things in helicopter cockpits already: especially when flying around near big bits of rock.

The radio discipline that Crab referred to is already instilled into most SAR pilots and at Kintail MRT it also features in the radio aide memoire that I encourage our folks to carry. :ok:

General MRT comms is in the process of moving from a widely-used radio band and during the next three or four years can be expected to partly or wholly move to digital VHF emissions. Airwave is history and the first major ESN migrations are programmed for summer/autumn 2018. ESN and other 4G/LTE rollouts will also provide improved opportunities for secure comms in some areas and satellite phones are in use by some teams and by SAR aircraft. :ok:

There is also the factor that these 1000m propagation barriers have a tendency to make it difficult for anyone at all to receive messages, so good luck with your Maplin-made-in-china scanner. :rolleyes:

[SilsoeSid]

Admitting his son was a fishhead and now this post on http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/593112-cardiff-heliport-open-day-fly-9th-april.html#post9740508 confirms that Jay is indeed our old pal 'Ye Olde Pilot' :rolleyes:

[dClbydalpha]

Crab , Jim,
My previous post seems to have disappeared.

Neither of my scenarios are theoretical ... real world, real requirements.

[jimf671]

Here's the real world.

If you were good at physics at school and understood radio propagation, would you end up as a Home Office minister or a Chief Constable? No.

People flying HEMS or SAR helicopters in these situations have the first priority of not turning into red mince on a piece of rock themselves. Everybody knows the issues about privacy and confidentiality and works their messages around it. Secure comms with fancy kit comes way way down the list of priorities. I know of at least one aircraft spec that has some comms problems because the radios fitted are ludicrously complicated and deserving of a dedicated radio operator. Like the Lady said "I'm not interested in talk-groups and all that stuff. I just want to press the button and talk and everyone understands what's going on."

The foot-soldiers on the ground are on the same page as the Lady above who just wants to press the button and talk. They are often wet and cold and more interested the patient's vital signs than the correct talkgroup or waiting for a satellite call to go through.

For every incident in wild or mountainous country that has Airwave coverage, there are several that have not. We currently have no idea how good ESN will be when it replaces Airwave or what access will be available to groups like MRT, CRS, Red Cross and so on. I believe (uncorroborated) that the basis for providing ESN coverage is different from that used for Airwave coverage but I do not expect coverage in wild and mountainous terrain to be substantially different.

If an aircraft has Airwave coverage above an incident, that has no relevance to the situation on the ground. If they cannot advance collaboration with those at the scene and cannot advance air safety and navigation then guess how much use it is at that point? Having said that, HEMS are far more likely to be using it since their controllers and the other ambulance assets are using it. In a SAR aircraft, Airwave is for ordering takeaways at the end of a long tiring shift. (And for updating hospital staff about patient condition.)

Open net VHF belonging to MRT and others similar groups are inevitably the back-up comms for the rest of the emergency services when a major incident is in wild and mountainous country or when their secure systems collapse under intense operational pressure.

[dClbydalpha]

Jim, all I answered a very specific question regarding why the SAR aircraft would not have its position forwarded into the public domain.

I answered it privately as it seems to have no relevance to the main point of this thread.

The question came up again, so I answered publicly.

I cannot comment on UK. But I know SAR agencies have required their FF and AIS positions to be prevented from being forwarded, as much as possible, into the public domain. I have explained why.

I've given my answer, based on my knowledge. I don't believe it really merits further discussion. It doesn't progress this thread any further.

[SouthernExplorer]

From an MRT perspective - teams do have access to ADSB data from Air Ambulance and SAR Helicopters via various sources - firstly from a network of receivers set up by various teams and also via a feed from an online aircraft watchers database that normally block such info to other subscribers.

Airwave is very much with us for a fair while with the delayed roll out of ESN. ESN coverage will be worse than Airwave - as the contract for sparsely populated areas was dropped from the requirement. At present there is Airwave in several areas with no cell coverage - ESN will not cover this.

The MRT VHF bands are migrating shortly to new bands due to the requirement to release bandwidth for marine ship-ship channels. Digital is rolling out but as yet this is not on a national basis but done by particular teams due to their own requirements. The current standard is analogue and likely to remain so for some time.

[SilsoeSid]

Jimf671;
If you were good at physics at school and understood radio propagation, would you end up as a Home Office minister or a Chief Constable? No.

You know what's coming next ...

LMGTFY (http://bfy.tw/BFqY)

Paul West QPM held the position of Chief Constable (West Mercia Police) from 2003 until 2011. Paul started his police career in 1979 when he joined the Durham Constabulary after completing a physics degree at Oxford University.

Surrey's new temporary Chief Constable Nick Ephgrave. He’s the carefully-spoken former physicist who spent the 90s hunting IRA terrorists and went on to take down the brutal murderers of Damilola Taylor.

On 4 November 1996 Ronnie Flanagan took up his post as Chief Constable of the RUC, one of the most powerful posts occupied by an unelected official in either Ireland or the United Kingdom.In 1970 Ronnie Flanagan joined the RUC while still at Queen's University where he was studying physics.

Alan McQuillan was Acting Deputy Chief Constable in PSNI until 2003. He holds a BSC (Hons) Degree in Physics from Queen’s University, Belfast.

Assistant Chief Constable (Durham Constabulary) Dave Orford
After growing up in County Durham, Dave attended Manchester University gaining a degree in physics before being commissioned into the Royal Engineers.

OK, so a few assistants there :rolleyes:

Not quite sure who is where these days, but;

Members of the UK Parliament with science and technology degrees in 2015
So with help from twitter, the list of MPs with science degrees looks something like this (will update as needed):

Heidi Allen MP for South Cambridgeshire (BSc in Astrophysics)
Steve Baker MP for Wycombe (BSc Aerospace Engineering, MSc Computer Science)
Gavin Barwell MP for Croydon Central (BA Natural Sciences)
Margaret Beckett MP for Derby South (BSc Metallurgy)
Karen Bradley MP for Staffordshire Moorlands (BSc Mathematics)
Tom Brake MP for Carshalton and Wallington (BSc Physics)
Julian Brazier MP for Canterbury (BA Mathematics)
Andrew Bridgen MP for North West Leicestershire (BSc Genetics)
Alan Brown MP for Kilmarnock (BSc Civil Engineering)
Therese Coffey MP for Suffolk Coastal (BSc & PhD Chemistry)
David Davis MP for Haltemprice & Howden (BSc Computer Science)
Robert Flello MP for Stoke-on-Trent South (BSc Chemistry)
Liam Fox MP for North Somerset (Bachelor of Medicine)
Mark Hendrick MP for Central Lancashire (BSc Eletrical Engineering)
Carol Monaghan MP for Glasgow North West (BSc Physics)
Liz McInnes MP for Heywood & Middleton (BSc Biochemistry)
Chi Onwurah MP for Newcastle Central (BEng Electrical Engineering)
Chris Philp MP for Croydon South (BSc Physics)
Alok Sharma MP for Reading West (BSc Physics & Electronics)
Alec Shelbrooke MP for Elmet & Rothwell (BEng Mechanical Engineering)
Graham Stringer MP for Blackley (BSc Chemistry)
Stephen Timms MP for East Ham (MA Mathematics)
Philippa Whitford MP for Ayrshire Central (Bachelor of Medicine)
Sarah Wollaston MP for Totnes (Bachelor of Medicine)
Valerie Vaz MP for Walsall South (BSc Biochemistry)
Nadhim Zahawi MP for Stratford-on-Avon (BSc Chemical Engineering)
https://duncan.hull.name/2015/05/08/scientist-mps/
:ok:

[John Eacott]

Admitting his son was a fishhead and now this post on http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/593112-cardiff-heliport-open-day-fly-9th-april.html#post9740508 confirms that Jay is indeed our old pal 'Ye Olde Pilot' :rolleyes:

Good memory SS: and mind numbing to look back at YOPs posts, especially in the NPAS thread :rolleyes:

[RotorKraft]

Rest in peace

[helispeediii]

god bless, for the grace of god, most of us have made mistakes

[ExGrunt]

Hi Kawa,


First of all condolences on your loss.


I wont take up anymore of your time - it just the whole - I know this man, he is safe, he has 1000's of hours of flight time, he employs steel erectors who can be bolshie and difficult and can stand his ground, if he didnt want to go he wouldnt of gone, wife nagging or not (as it happens Ruth wasn't like that) - something made him clip the top of that hill, obviously IMC - you dont fly deliberately into a hill you can see - insufficient MSA - again you dont deliberately fly around in hills with your MSA less than the highest one IMC.


I cannot help feeling that some of the criticism here has been particularly harsh, especially when counterpointed with the parallel thread where a fully equipped (bar perhaps NVG) S92 with a crew of four impacted terrain.


Does the twin squirrel have any form of CVR? Or may this pilot suffer in the way that the crew of ZD576 were damned by the absence of evidence?


EG

[sudden twang]

Hi Kawa,


First of all condolences on your loss.





I cannot help feeling that some of the criticism here has been particularly harsh, especially when counterpointed with the parallel thread where a fully equipped (bar perhaps NVG) S92 with a crew of four impacted terrain.


Does the twin squirrel have any form of CVR? Or may this pilot suffer in the way that the crew of ZD576 were damned by the absence of evidence?


EG
I've never known a 355 to have a CVR but there may have been a Go Pro or other camera recording.
All theories are purely that at this stage but I think ZD576 is a different issue.
Imagine a car on a dual carriageway approaching a roundabout. It's February OAT 1degC, it's raining. The car impacts a tree on said roundabout. What is the likely cause? Yes it could have been a tyre blow out or brake failure but in all probability it was black ice. Can we be certain.. no but logically speaking????
Now to liken it to 476 you would have to factor in that the particular type of car had questions over the accelerator linkage. Factoring this into the equation would make the cause much more questionable.
Kawa I know how you feel I lost a friend on 576

[ExGrunt]

ST,


Thanks for your response re CVR.


WRT to ZD576, I accept that the incidents are very different, save that deceased aircrew may be subject to unfair allegations without a CVR to illuminate what was happening in the cockpit.


EG

[sudden twang]

ST,


Thanks for your response re CVR.


WRT to ZD576, I accept that the incidents are very different, save that deceased aircrew may be subject to unfair allegations without a CVR to illuminate what was happening in the cockpit.


EG

Yep no certainties just probabilities. See G ARPI .https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/4-1973-g-arpi-18-june-1972
Page 69 recommendation 3

[tistisnot]

Page 59 recommendation 3

[donotdespisethesnake]

AAIB have published a summary of investigation into G-OHCP accident in Mar 2018 bulletin. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/686642/AAIB_Bulletin_3-2018_Lo_Res.pdf

From the Conclusion

Conclusion
The accident occurred after the helicopter entered cloud while descending. The pilot did not
carry out a 180° turn away from the rising ground and probably did not regain VMC before
impact with the side of the mountain

[[email protected]]

So, very sadly, pretty much as surmised earlier - a poor plan with inadequate met appreciation and a pilot's ambition exceeding his ability to manage the flight.

The self-imposed pressures to get the family to Ireland seem to have clouded sensible judgement regarding both the preparation (over AUM on departure) and the conduct (ending up IMC on a VFR sortie) of this flight.

Another CFIT which could so easily have been avoided, RIP.

[EESDL]

Another tragic element is that the pilot had access to all the relevant planning/weather information before and during the flight but pressed on regardless.
It sounds like the cockpit was full of gadgets, displaying that reassuring track line to destination......

[booke23]

The report makes some interesting human factors observations on pilots faced with a transition from VFR to IMC.

‘a. When under stress, people tend to place a greater emphasis on positive
outcomes when making decisions.

b. When conditions deteriorate gradually, cues suggesting that a course of
action be abandoned often fail to change that course.

This indicates that, if intending to remain in VMC, it is better to anticipate the
need to avoid the boundary between VMC and IMC than to fly towards it and,
perhaps inadvertently, across it.’

[[email protected]]

It seems to be a difference between the professional pilot and the successful businessman/sportsman - when faced with a changing scenario whilst flying, someone who is used to being right (or being told they are right) in their own profession appears to be less likely to change their course of action when conditions change.

Now that is clearly a generalisation but a professional pilot is more used to replanning on the hoof when the weather changes suddenly - the 'amateur' who may have bags of experience in his own profession may be more reluctant (especially when he has people relying on his plan) when his aviation scenario doesn't turn out to be what he hoped for or expected.

If you are a VFR pilot, it is likely you have very little experience of dealing with rapidly deteriorating weather and even less of IIMC.

Perhaps it is a problem with over-reliance on i-pad style planning which seems so much quicker, modern and more attractive to modern aviators rather than looking at a synoptic or ringing a met office to check conditions. Or even looking at a proper map to gain a better appreciation of the terrain you will be flying over.

Interesting that the report seems to indicate that one of the apps he had running thought the aircraft was much further East than it actually was - or I may have got the wrong end of the stick on that detail.

[India Four Two]

crab,

They were screenshots, stored when the aircraft was approaching Welshpool.

Figure 13 to 15 show the stored screenshots for the relevant apps.
Both of the screenshots for RunwayHD (Figure 13) and SkyDemon (Figure 14) show the position of the helicopter as 8 nm east of Welshpool Airport (33 nm from the accident site, at 2,280 ft amsl with 112 kt groundspeed), implying that SkyDemon had been selected prior to this point (no information available as to how long for) and that RunwayHD was then selected and remained selected until the accident5.

[[email protected]]

I thought I might have got it wrong but why have screenshots of that point - are they surmising that he cross checked one against the other and then selected Runway HD as his choice?

[212man]

I thought I might have got it wrong but why have screenshots of that point - are they surmising that he cross checked one against the other and then selected Runway HD as his choice?
Yes - that's how I read it

[malabo]

He had the tools. Own position map with terrain GPWS shading, backed up with the Garmin. Plus an autopilot. Could have stayed coupled on heading and altitude and bored along until he could descend to VMC, or punched off the autopilot before going into cloud and maneuvered lower to stay visual. Unprepared for the decision. I’ve trained a few owner/pilots that have two or three screens up but nothing meaningful on them for the conditions. The shaded EGPWS page is a good start.

[SASless]

god bless, for the grace of god, most of us have made mistakes


Some of us have, freely admit it, learned from them....and others will blunder on down the path thinking they are immune till we read about them someday.

A wise man will quickly learn from other's mistakes and be slow to criticize.

Seeking to understand what might have happened in and of itself is not unfair criticism.

[Two's in]

The fact that the direct track between point A and Point B took these unfortunate souls over some of the highest terrain in the country on a day with marginal (for VFR) ceilings speaks volumes. In the "ipad" and Garmin era, does anyone even do route planning and terrain appreciation anymore? Twin engines are no protection against cumulo granite.

[anchorhold]

Yet another AAIB report which does not really consider the HF elements as follows:

(a) Why did the pilot plan a flight when Shawbury was RADZ 003 and Valley cloud base at 600 ft, was the pilot's thinking that the Rhiongs would be better?
(b) Would a 180 degree turn helped, simply do not enter IMC.
(c) Did the pilot brief the PAX that in the event the weather was bad, they would land at Welshpool, or Liverpool and via taxi and scheduled flight continue to Dublin.
(d) Jut another CFIT of not lossing face in not getting to the destination.

I am sorry if this is not respectfull to the deseased, but perhaps we can learn from this,

[Sir Niall Dementia]

It seems to be a difference between the professional pilot and the successful businessman/sportsman - when faced with a changing scenario whilst flying, someone who is used to being right (or being told they are right) in their own profession appears to be less likely to change their course of action when conditions change.

Now that is clearly a generalisation but a professional pilot is more used to replanning on the hoof when the weather changes suddenly - the 'amateur' who may have bags of experience in his own profession may be more reluctant (especially when he has people relying on his plan) when his aviation scenario doesn't turn out to be what he hoped for or expected.

If you are a VFR pilot, it is likely you have very little experience of dealing with rapidly deteriorating weather and even less of IIMC.

Perhaps it is a problem with over-reliance on i-pad style planning which seems so much quicker, modern and more attractive to modern aviators rather than looking at a synoptic or ringing a met office to check conditions. Or even looking at a proper map to gain a better appreciation of the terrain you will be flying over.

Interesting that the report seems to indicate that one of the apps he had running thought the aircraft was much further East than it actually was - or I may have got the wrong end of the stick on that detail.

Crab;

You're pushing on an open door here. I don't know how many times over the last 30 years I've commented on the fact that success in one area of your life means being successful, or even competent in others. The risk taking attitude that so often makes business success can be lethal in aviation.

I flew OHCP a lot between 2000 and 2005, she was a good 355, but heavy, taking off 150 kg over weight says to me that the rules were there to be bent, if not ignored.

SND

[Al-bert]

SND
I don't know how many times over the last 30 years I've commented on the fact that success in one area of your life means being successful, or even competent in others.

is that what you meant to say? :confused:

[Sir Niall Dementia]

SND


is that what you meant to say? :confused:

B####r;

I meant to say that being successful in one area of your life does not mean being successful, or even competent in all others.

Don't get distracted whilst posting:ok:

SND

[212man]

Yet another AAIB report which does not really consider the HF elements as follows:

(a) Why did the pilot plan a flight when Shawbury was RADZ 003 and Valley cloud base at 600 ft, was the pilot's thinking that the Rhiongs would be better?
(b) Would a 180 degree turn helped, simply do not enter IMC.
(c) Did the pilot brief the PAX that in the event the weather was bad, they would land at Welshpool, or Liverpool and via taxi and scheduled flight continue to Dublin.
(d) Jut another CFIT of not lossing face in not getting to the destination.

I am sorry if this is not respectfull to the deseased, but perhaps we can learn from this,
Brief the pax? They were his family!

[Nescafe]

Brief the pax? They were his family!

Yes, brief the pax. If the pilot had raised the possibility of diverting due weather in a pre take off brief, it wouldn’t have been as much of a ‘loss of face’ in flight to have to say ‘well, I told you it was possible we wouldn’t get through.’

[Cows getting bigger]

150kg overweight when lifting out of J13. :hmm:

Sometimes the invincible aren't invincible.

[[email protected]]

Yes, that is symptomatic of his attitude to the whole flight it seems.:ugh:

[Pittsextra]

It seems to be a difference between the professional pilot and the successful businessman/sportsman - when faced with a changing scenario whilst flying, someone who is used to being right (or being told they are right) in their own profession appears to be less likely to change their course of action when conditions change.

really? more recent CFIT include an S92, AW139 and 109 all professionally flown weren't they?

[[email protected]]

I didn't say professional pilots were immune to CFIT but the S92 certainly had mitigating factors and the 139 had severe operator/owner pressure, I'm not sure which 109 you refer to.

The 92 had errors in its navigational database and perhaps a crew that were too comfortable following the magenta line.

The 139 crew should have said no but pushed on using an inappropriate departure technique.

There have been far, far more GA pilots hitting the ground unintentionally over the years and the root cause is often poor weather appreciation and unnecessary risk-taking due to pressonitis.

[ShyTorque]

really? more recent CFIT include an S92, AW139 and 109 all professionally flown weren't they?

Flown by pilots with professional licences, but not flown in a truly professional manner - there lies the difference.

[hobbit1983]

Yet another AAIB report which does not really consider the HF elements as follows:

(a) Why did the pilot plan a flight when Shawbury was RADZ 003 and Valley cloud base at 600 ft, was the pilot's thinking that the Rhiongs would be better?
(b) Would a 180 degree turn helped, simply do not enter IMC.
(c) Did the pilot brief the PAX that in the event the weather was bad, they would land at Welshpool, or Liverpool and via taxi and scheduled flight continue to Dublin.
(d) Jut another CFIT of not lossing face in not getting to the destination.

I am sorry if this is not respectfull to the deseased, but perhaps we can learn from this,

The answers would almost certainly be pure speculation at this point..?

[booke23]

I think there have been some very pertinent observations from crab, two's in and others about flight planning in this era of electronic tablet navigation. Scrolling around a map on a screen is no substitute for sitting in front of a real map when you're planning a flight.....you just see so much more.


TAF EGOV 290747Z 2909/2918 18020KT 8000 BR OVC006 BECMG 2909/2911
OVC007 TEMPO 2909/2918 3000 RADZ BKN003=

METAR COR EGOV 290950Z 16019KT 8000 BR OVC007 11/10 Q1015
BLACKGRN TEMPO 3000 RADZ BKN003 YLO2=

What I can't understand is this. He got airborne around 10.30, he would have seen the above TAF and METAR for Valley before he got in the aircraft. Why did he think the flight could have been conducted safely in VMC?

I notice he had the weather radar from the Met Office displayed on his ipad......maybe he thought he could dodge the Wx radar returns and remain VMC, but Wx radar from the Met Office shows areas of rain.....it's not a low cloud radar.

Very sad....he even had the autopilot engaged, so when it started looking dicey he could have selected a climb to MSA until over the sea.

[Pittsextra]

I didn't say professional pilots were immune to CFIT but the S92 certainly had mitigating factors and the 139 had severe operator/owner pressure, I'm not sure which 109 you refer to.

The 92 had errors in its navigational database and perhaps a crew that were too comfortable following the magenta line.

The 139 crew should have said no but pushed on using an inappropriate departure technique.

There have been far, far more GA pilots hitting the ground unintentionally over the years and the root cause is often poor weather appreciation and unnecessary risk-taking due to pressonitis.

I will defer to your experience and give it the respect it deserves but the common thread with all is that a human is behind the controls.

Someone suggested the human factors weren't covered so well and I would think the AAIB might recognise that hasn't been their strongest area as they recruited for that exact role recently.

All that said there is only so many times you can pass essentially the same message, in this case the pilot was experienced and one must surely be generous enough to think that a pilot with 3650hrs can read and understand TAF and METAR and F215 information. Why the obvious wasn't heeded is no clearer here than the fuel situation in Glasgow or the decision making of the 109 pilot who crashed in London or the two crew members of the 139 in Norfolk.

Pressure? I'm sure in most of those, I understand that this pilot was enroute to a wedding and for sure you can well imagine if that was the case it brought pressure.

If he was using an iPad as his primary nav did it freeze giving him a false impression of his position? who knows and one would still be pulled back to the preflight weather info and airmanship around continuation of a VFR flight into IMC.

But all that to one side people err and plenty of "great guys" have been caught out too and paid pilots are not immune.

[[email protected]]

Pitts - you are completely correct - it is the human element that keeps failing in these (usually) avoidable accidents but I don't know why you think the CAA should have the answers.

There are reams of information about the human psyche, decision making, perceived pressure et al and HF is a required element of all licences - yet the accidents keep happening.

Why do people keep crashing on the roads? Cars are safer yet the frustrations and pressures of real life (plus a lack of awareness in many cases) keep contributing to the death toll.

There are so many reasons that the human being is the weak link in the man/machine interface that even when you think you have educated everyone about everything, something bizarre occurs - who saw the German Wings suicide coming?

As an instructor, I keep finding myself teaching the same stuff, over and over again, using incidents like this one to help other pilots learn from others mistakes.

BUT, however well trained you are, it just takes a bad day with something happening that you didn't want or expect, just to drop your guard enough for those human failings to override that training and start you on the slippery slope to an accident/incident.

If you are lucky, your in-built sense of self-preservation comes to the rescue in time to avert disaster - if not..............

[Pittsextra]

Hi - I don't think I've mentioned the CAA?

I agree with your last post, my prior point just being everyone can err.

When you instruct you are very close to the coal face in terms of being forced to think about your flying and no doubt your students highlight things that you may not have considered as something that could "err"??

But as a community what is the engagement? Who talks to the 3000hr pilot about best practice or just gives a review? Does his LPC cover things? Possibly but these continued VFR flights into IMC are akin to just not putting enough fuel in the tank. Maybe operation off private type sites should have some buddy system with a phone call to someone who can have the "are you sure..?" comment?

All with its own un-intended consequence and snags.

[[email protected]]

Hi - I don't think I've mentioned the CAA?sorry, I meant the AAIB:ok:

On your last point, the GA community could learn something from the military where each flight is required to be authorised - it can be self-authorised or more often done by someone else.

The process means you present your plan and someone else casts their eye over it and asks pertinent questions.

In this case, if he had phoned someone and briefly talked through his plan, you would like to think they would have asked questions about the weather and what he would do if it was bad en route.

It may be that he had done this sort of thing many times before and been lucky to get a cloudbreak or weather improvement - this is another classic human failing where the risks become normalised and he assumes he is a better pilot because he got through last time.

[212man]

I'm not sure which 109 you refer to.

There's a choice of two - Vauxhall Bridge and Mourne Mountains

[[email protected]]

Ah yes and both of those could be classed as Shy Torque described a few posts ago.

[ShyTorque]

Not forgetting the other A109 that suffered an accident, flown by a PPLH holder in what could be described at best as very marginal VMC. The pilot probably attempted to fly an ILS, for which he was neither qualified or trained. Or another that quite a few of us in the industry know about - another A109S hit the ground and bounced, at night whilst trying to land in low cloud/fog in a remote area; thankfully not too hard a bounce such that the pilot got away with it, but the aircraft didn't fare too well.

People always make mistakes, be it whilst flying, driving, walking or whatever. Increased legislation won't prevent many of them. An AOC holder has a responsibility to monitor the safety of all involved, but that won't ever prevent professional pilots making errors of skill, or judgement of a situation once airborne.

[anchorhold]

In the Vauxhall Bridge accident the pilot was using his mobile phone, yet the AAIB did not really indentify that as a major facitor.

As for military authorisation, that did not make a difference in the CFIT Chinook accident and various other RAF CFIT accidents.

[ShyTorque]

this?

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5422fe4440f0b613420008a1/Agusta_A109E__G-PWER.pdf

ATPL holder with 3,000 hours

Yes, you're right, that's the one. I failed to recall that he had a professional licence but I knew he didn't have an IR, which was still highly relevant to the situation leading up to the accident.

The Mountains of Mourne accident was inexcusable, in my book. I had flown with that pilot in the past and cannot understand why he failed to fly at MSA.

[rotorspeed]

The specific cause of this accident seems something of a mystery, ie why did the pilot descend in IMC into high ground. There was no apparent reason to. He had the equipment to know his position with the iPad moving map, the height of the terrain in his path, and his altitude. There was nothing wrong with the aircraft and no reason eg icing to force him down. And he had engaged autopilot modes to enable stable flight in IMC.

The task before him was pretty simple really. Had he just continued on track at the 3000ft he achieved he could have got to his destination. So what went wrong?

Well, we know he was sloppy. His log book was not remotely up to date and he well overloaded a limited power aircraft. We know too that the weather was going to mean he had virtually no chance of achieving this flight according maintaining VMC, as his licence required him too. So what went through his mind pre flight ref weather? One scenario is that he just didn't look carefully enough at the met info. Seems a bit strange to me that the visited pages were rainfall, not TAFs and METARs. I guess it is possible he was clueless enough not to be able to obtain and understand a general weather picture, but after over 3000hrs VFR experience that seems very unlikely.

Another scenario is that he did know the weather was likely to be poor en route but that he was happy (ish) to continue IMC, because he had an autopilot and knew how to push the buttons. And indeed he'd done this before. The AAIB report surprisingly didn't consider this possibility. Though if this was the case why did he descend at all?

If he intended to maintain VMC why climb as high as 3000ft, into an increasing headwind, so early - ie 20 miles before he needed to for terrain clearance? Possibly to get a smoother ride - it was probably fairly bumpy. But I'm not sure this pilot would have thought this way. And if he wanted to maintain VMC, why not descend earlier and faster to maintain VMC, or simply turn back. Two very easy actions.

Another point - I was surprised by the lack of any reference in the report to any RT comms. He was squawking 1177 which would indicate he was talking to London Information. If so, I wonder what he said to them?

The rate of descent from the peak of 3000ft is very interesting and significant to me - it is minimal, at 25ft/min, and is maintained for 15mins. Who ever descends at such a fine rate - and immediately after climbing? Even in a cruise descent to a destination you might choose a VS of say 200ft/min to optimise speed, but not 25ft/min. And I can't believe the cloudbase he was keeping under was reducing so slowly and progressively.

So here's a scenario. The pilot climbs to 3000ft having selected a climb on VS. At 3000ft he turns down the VS to level, but doesn't select ALT. But actually he's selected not 0, but 25ft/min down. He makes both mistakes because he's sloppy. And he doesn't check the altimeter for the same reason.

Now he trundles on at 115kts, passing through and over bits of cloud, until eventually he comes to much more solid cloud ahead. At this point he decides to descend and keep under it. He knows highest ground is 2300ft but as he's at 3000ft he can descend 700ft before he's going to hit anything. And he can see patches of ground well below through gaps in the cloud.

However of course he's not descending from the 3000ft he thinks he's at, but 2700ft. And that 300ft makes a fatal difference. Any thoughts?
An alternative is that his rate of descent rapidly increases when he encounters the forecast mountain wave conditions. Maybe he hasn't deliberately descended faster at all - after all, 185ft/min is still strangely slow to be an effort to maintain VMC - and that this extra modest descent is from downdrafts.

And then finally there is the slightly mysterious reference to "other substances" being found in the pilot's body. Which clearly has the potential for judgment to be even more flawed.

[[email protected]]

AnchorholdAs for military authorisation, that did not make a difference in the CFIT Chinook accident and various other RAF CFIT accidents. I didn't say it was infallible but it is a layer of safety/supervision that doesn't exist in GA.

The Mull crash had a lot more going on than just a simple CFIT - I have seen several military CFIT crashes discussed at length on various mil flight safety courses - including that one - the auth process is a check and balance but ultimately if the captain doesn't comply with his auth there's not much you can do.

Rotorspeed - I think your logic is sound regarding the use of the VS mode but without a CVFDR we won't ever know.

Every pilot should study this accident to try and understand how poor practices can too easily convert a serviceable aircraft and several humans into a scar on a mountainside.

[anchorhold]

I think pilots in their intial training and recurrent training there needs to be more emphasis on decision making, risk assesment through reading AAIB reports.

As mentioned before I think there is within parts of the rotary community a different attitude to pressing on in poor weather and many fixed wing pilots have a different attitude climb to MSA and or 180 degree turn and request radar, of course the latter is not an option in a valley.

While even the RAF at Valley were probably not flying and this flight was planning to fly go through Snowdonia was a CANP filed, that would be a sensible option. It concerns me that even if the conditions were flyable, that a Hawk or SAR rotary might be coming in the opposite direction.

[[email protected]]

Hawks and SAR rotary have standard routes in, through and out of Snowdonia which are generally at low level.

The route the Squirrel took would have been very unlikely to meet mil traffic - even if he had managed to stay VMC throughout.

CANP is usually used for specific sites - hang-gliding, USL work etc rather than a 'VFR' route.

Agree with your point about different attitudes to pressing on in poor weather RW vs FW.

[anchorhold]

Crab... I am not sure how strickly applied the low level military routes are applied I would err on the side of cauction with CANP. But on weekdays, it is probably best to leave North Wales to the RAF.

To add what you said about the military briefing and authorising has a place in GA, but does not always work when someone is operating outside an organistion. But you should read AAIB G-BIIJ where the clubs instructors auuthised a flight to a stag night. The difficulty here than the instructor having checked the weather authorised him. Of course I do not how the conversation went, but my concern is here that the pilot was in the mindset that if the instructor authorised him the trip was possible.

Had it been me I think I would have perhaps asked question about his gameplan it the weather became worse, such as landing at the nearest airport or turning back and hiring a car, have they got their driving licence and a credit card with them, had the pax been briefed on the possibility that they might have to make other travel arrangemnts. I think I would kindly reminded them about the consumption of alcohol and substances, bearing in mind it was a stag night. I would add that on the fatal outbound which ended at Tryfan, there were traces of drugs in both the pilot and pax, again this says alot about the attitude of the pilot in terms of his operation.

Now going back to the military, I once went on a secondment to a University Air Squadrom, at the begining of the day an Cadet Pilot would be delegated to give a full weather briefing to his instructor and fellow cadet pilots, it was from a training point a really good training exercise.

On that basis, in the civilian world it does make me wonder if we should do something similar and get our student pilots to do something similar to place more emphasis on weather planning and having an alternate gameplan when the weather is worse than expected

[[email protected]]

Again I have to say that the authorisation process isn't infallible - it is one of the main areas that is discussed on military Flight Safety courses - and once the aircraft is airborne it is up to the person with their hands on the controls how the flight is actually conducted.

The authoriser is a check and balance in the aviation process and can assess if the sortie is possible under the conditions he is briefed on. If the weather changes en route it doesn't mean the pilot can charge on regardless just because he has been authorised.

I concur with your thinking regarding what questions you would ask as the authoriser - that is exactly what someone could have done with this Squirrel crash - asked the 'what ifs'.

The low level routes into and out of Valley are strictly adhered to and were created to deconflict Hawks from Mil rotary. I have seen very few CANPs in Snowdonia and only ever for USL work repairing the paths. Even civilian helicopter clubs doing mountain flying training tend not to CANP their activities.

The students giving met briefing is a standard part of the military training system.

[[email protected]]

And that, in a nutshell, is why the system won't change and we will still see pilots attempting flights beyond their capability.

None of those objections is insurmountable but the attitude behind them sounds like the NRA when someone suggests gun control.

[[email protected]]

It doesn't have to be officially run or cost money - it just needs to be viewed as another convention for sensible pilots.

Think of it like hillwalkers, those that value their lives when venturing out into the wilds, tell someone where they are going, their route and when they expect to be back so that the alarm can be raised if they fail to return.

All it takes is a phone call to someone you know and trust - they may just shrug their shoulders and say 'crack on Lofty' but they might just ask pertinent questions that could cause you to think again about your plan.

Sadly, the type of over-confident character who is often found in the AAIB reports, is likely to see this as a challenge to their manhood or general superiority as an individual.

[rotorspeed]

Forget any ideas about authorising flights, it's never going to happen, being totally unworkable and minimally effective. Those that need advice will never ask - they can do that now electively easily enough, by asking whoever does their LPC.

Some forget that in the general aviation world most people fly to save time, and GA's benefits can be undermined rapidly by unnecessary faff such as trying to get a flight approved by someone who may well have less of an idea than the pilot asking.

Focus needs to be on intelligent decision making, both before but particularly when actually flying, if we are to reduce accidents. There always needs to be an out from any developing difficult situation, mainly weather but also challenging approaches and departures for example. And despite what some might believe, history shows that commercial pilots can be as guilty as private pilots in doing dumb things - eg Harding and Carter AS355 accidents, Haughey 139 and several 109 accidents. And most accidents probably involve a degree of pressure, from self or others, which needs to be managed and minimised.

[500e]

I don't hear Crab saying you have to get flight approval, he is suggesting if you discus the flight with someone else preferably without a vested interest in where & when you get there it will at least make you think & may be question your own decision, when I fly or sail we always tell someone our departure \ arrival time (wife, friend, whoever) & contact them on arrival or as soon as possible.
Have always done this for 60 years when sailing just seemed sensible to do same flying other than local flights, so far managed to survive nearly 80 years.

[RVDT]

In days of old you used to consult with a guy in flight service or met who would give you the “brief”.

If what you were doing was not exactly too prudent it would normally be pointed out with subtlety.

In days of new, it’s anyone’s guess ……

[[email protected]]

Some forget that in the general aviation world most people fly to save time, and GA's benefits can be undermined rapidly by unnecessary faff such as trying to get a flight approved by someone who may well have less of an idea than the pilot asking. And spearing into a hillside somewhere saves time how?????

There is a good adage in military flying - time to spare, go by air - which acknowledges that all sorts of things can slow down your aim of getting from A to B quickly and that rushing is often foolhardy where aviation is concerned.

If you are going to fly then do it properly and professionally even if you are not a CPL or ATPL holder - it is the mindset that makes the difference, which is why some professional pilots can make the same mistakes.

[SASless]

Crab,

It might come as a shock to you that civvie Street ain’t like the military and at some point you ain’t wearing the off color blue suit anymore.

What works in the Mob doesn’t necessarily transfer over from the RAF to your local Air Taxi, Corporate, or personally owned aircraft operation.

Awkward transition for some I know but at point in your life you do have to accept the fact you no longer have a Batman or a Rack to stow your Serviette.

[toptobottom]

Crab
Hawks and SAR rotary have standard routes in, through and out of Snowdonia which are generally at low level


The hawk jockeys do a lot of low-level work, but regularly fly at all levels. Also, although they file a FP, they rarely stick to it (this is from the horse's mouth).


Re the 'phone a friend' idea, I appreciate this might cut down your workload, but it's fantasy for GA land, particularly the rotary owner community, which is almost exclusively comprised of individuals who resent asking anyone about anything that might risk denting their ego.

[paco]

Quite agree with the last statement. The basic premise is flawed, as it is with the gun control mention above. Until you change basic attitudes, you will always get accidents such as the Biggin Hill 206 crash. It's why many examiners, including myself, refuse to deal with private owners. It's a long process, having taken many years to change attitudes towards drunk driving - I don't believe legislation has helped there at all.

Having said that, many things could have happened with this accident. In trying to maintain VFR, many people try to fly as high as possible in mountains, too near the cloud base. This is a mistake, as a bit of turbulence could put you unexpectedly IMC. Couple that with the lack of any help from the stabilising surfaces at low speeds (typically below about 45 knots, but VTOSS on that machine is 55 kts if memory serves) you are in a situation where you should be climbing and speeding up, which is not instinctively what you want to do. At least with FW you get a basic stability from the machine.

Of course, that may well not have been the case here - I just mention it as a general safety point.

[[email protected]]

TTB - when you say file a flight plan, you mean put their route on CADS and get a low flying booking I think.

I know they fly all over LFA 7 but the routes and heights (unless they have been changed after 30 plus years) in and out of Valley through Snowdonia are pretty well adhered to.

Sas - you just don't get it - I left the mil 4 years ago and am quite comfortable operating to other rules and regs - I don't think the mil auth system should be imposed on GA, I just raised the idea of a check and balance for those that might want it.

However, I think TTBs assessment of rotary owners, whilst maybe a generalisation, is certainly true of some out there (often the ones we read about on these pages).

[BluSdUp]

Or children of the magenta line, call it what You will!.
I just read the report.
Nr 1000 and counting.
This was a Cali type accident in slow motion.Something like that anyway.
A greatcircle track to Dublin VMC at 3000 feet in that weather.!! Then descend!!
With that experience and such fancy equipment!!!

Pure ignorance!! Sorry I call it what it is!

We are at a point in time were technology is fancy, but poorly incorporated and interpreted by incompetent operators.
I see it every second day in the right seat in airline ops.

Over- reliance on pads and apps.
Ignoring the hard facts and basic airman-ship.
It will get worse , trust me on this!
Hope I am wrong.

[The Nr Fairy]

I thought I might have got it wrong but why have screenshots of that point - are they surmising that he cross checked one against the other and then selected Runway HD as his choice?

It may be an artifact of how the iPad does swapping between applications. It takes a screenshot when you move away from one app to another, then a double tap on the Home button shows a mini version of the screenshot.

So it may be one app was being used for a while, the last time the other was used was a few minutes ago therefore shows further east.

[anchorhold]

Quite agree with the above, this new reliance on IPAD is not always a good thing, on entry into inadvertant with an IPAD, iwould just see as a distraction. What wrong these days with dead reckoning, use of navigation aids and a radar service? I just wonder what happens if the GPS fails.

I should say I like Garmin 430, but only as a secondary source of information.

A similar trend amongst hill walkers is the reliance on GPS, why not use a map and compass, enjoy the veiw, fresh air and escape technology for a while.

[rotorspeed]

Crab

Like it or not the reality is that efficient use of time (and money) is important in the GA world. And commercial air transport world too of course. In some areas of aviation it is much less of a priority. That means that "unnecessary faff" as I termed it, should be avoided. Necessary flight planning, aircraft preparation, and professional flying is necessary use of time and of course should be undertaken. But it should be appreciated that 99.99% of flights operate perfectly safely within the existing framework of regulations and procedures, which is why focus should be education of pilots in specific areas of high risk. Returning to the Wales accident, I think here it was a fundamental lack of spacial awareness. So the key message here is, always make sure you know where you are and what’s around you.

I stand by my view that your suggestion that “the GA community could learn something from the military where each flight is required to be authorised”, if implemented, would be an unnecessary faff and unworkable. The way you floated the idea was that each flight should be approved. But if you were going to flesh this out (which is necessary to validate the practicality of any idea) who exactly would you think this should apply to? All pilots? Just PPLs? Low time PPLs? And for flights in what weather? All, even CAVOK 20 mile hops? Or just bad weather flights? Then what weather? And who would do this? What credentials would they need to authorise flights? What notice would they need? How long would it take? How much would it cost? And then there is the big one – what insurance will they need to cover the liability risk when the relatives of crashed pilot add the authoriser to the list of parties they are going to sue? Not an issue in a mil world I’m sure, but it will be in the civilian! And then if you consider it should only be a recommendation, this has always been open to anyone to do – and those that felt they needed it could be doing it already.

Don’t get me wrong, you usually have some very good views – but I don’t think this is one of them!

Anchorhold

If you're over the Welsh mountains and relying on dead reckoning and using nav aids (what radar service?) you're going to have a lot less spare time to think about what you're doing, looking out, looking at instruments and generally thinking, compared with glancing at an iPad moving map with your exact position and speed instantly shown. And you're Garmin 430 will give you a GPS back up anyway. And if they don't agree - sure, dial up a VOR. If you're high enough.

Totally agree on your earlier post ref reading AAIB reports though. Essential educational reading for everyone.

[Thomas coupling]

Or aborted until the Wx improved.

"Press onitis" rears its ugly head again.................

[[email protected]]

Rotorspeed - I understand the likely resistance from the GA community and I am not advocating a mandatory compliance with another layer of regulations since there are more than enough of those already.

However, if there was an ability to ring someone of appropriate experience and credibility simply to have them cast an eye over your planned sortie (obviously of the longer, cross country variety rather than circuits) would some of those RW owners use such a facility?

Even if just one did and then aborted a planned flight rather than pushing on into another CFIT incident, it would be worthwhile.

The issues of legal responsibility and indemnity insurance are valid but definitely surmountable.

And I don't think I am the only one with ideas in this vein, there are plenty of responsible. experienced aviators who hate to see senseless waste of lives for the sake of a little education and guidance.

It's worth considering just for the sake of the families and friends who are either taken along to perish or left behind to grieve.

[paco]

Sir Niall Dementia was talking about this very subject some time ago.....

[[email protected]]

Yes, he prompted my last post

[jellycopter]

Crab,

Several of my civilian PPL(H) clients have (and occasionally still do) phoned me to run their plans past me and to take my advice on their suitability and the weather. On occasions the flight has been curtailed, on others it's been re-routed or delayed. On a few, the pilot has been hesitant but after discussing scenarios and plan B (and C, and D etc), the flights have been successfully accomplished when they would have been cancelled without the chat. However, several of my clients would never consider such a phone call as they like to exercise their own judgement.

This accident, as with so many others, is probably down to the personality type. As with attendees of Safety Awareness evenings, those that are likely to welcome an 'authorisation' chat, are the ones that are least likely to need it.

J

[[email protected]]

Jelly - I'm sure there are more like you and your students out there doing it right, that phone call is all that is required and they clearly respect your advice.:ok::ok:

[rotorspeed]

Crab - that all sounds a lot of sense now. I'm sure there would be quite a few pilots (maybe retired) who would love to be a wise old sounding board to those that contacted such a group. I wonder if it really could be organised and publicised? And who would be best to nudge the vulnerable into using such expertise? Tricky, but probably less difficult in this era of social media and web etc. Sounds like Jelly has got a good rapport - and that's key I think. Be great if it could work on a decent scale and those who most needed it used it!

[Sir Niall Dementia]

Crab, Paco;

I'll call you both today when I've got my drunks, sorry, tired and emotional pax to Cheltenham. There are some other names on the list, quite a few Paco will know. I'm aiming for a core of 6-8 to get things started.

SND

[paco]

Sure, will look forward to it.

[[email protected]]

Ok thanks, hope no-one hurls in the back!!

[anchorhold]

Following on to crabs point probabably we all need a mentor regardless of our experience. I have mentored ex students and sydicates/fying groups over the years and sometimes you have to point out the error of pilots ways.

Whether I was mentoring or authorising I think the criteria may vary between different pilots.

For example, what if a pilot phones me this morning regarding a flight this afternoon from Bristol to Jersey in a PA28. I go through the weather with him, it is nil wind and CAVOK all the way, I check his fuel plan, load sheet and the MEL. Do I say yes that is fine for you to go.

So should I check he has an immersion suit, PLB, lifejacket flares, if he hasn't should I advise him to delay the flight until June. Again the issue is my duty of care, if I do not tell him that he needs the above euipment and he ditches and dies of hypothermia, what is my position in law?

Within the framework of flying clubs and the military authorisation I think authorisation and mentoring, yet the problem is where the aircraft owner and operator will not take advice.

[Thomas coupling]

Anchorhold - good observation.

In practice, I still think the most effective way to get a message across is to organise/get involved in, regional flight safety meetings.
Arrange them yourself, invite local pilots to attend, have a beer/meal make it informal. Give lectures or tell stories and share your experiences.
That way, more will learn and they too will want to share.

This surely must be happening somewhere in the UK, no?

[Thomas coupling]

Crikey - I see what you mean, thanks Hargreaves.

Is it time for another session methinks?

New thread perhaps?

[paco]

Yeah, we had several at helicopter services, gary spender, shawn coyle and a few others turned up, at redhill as well.

Leon graciously allowed some people to sit in the sim and get crap weather between denham and wycombe. That made a severe point!

I'm going to be there between 21st and 25th if anyone wants a quick meeting in licensed premises.

[idle stop]

GASCo Safety Evenings, (what was the old CAA safety evenings), some 50-60 nationwide during the autumn to spring period, are aimed at ALL GA pilots and major on Human Factors.
There are plans to have a dedicated GASCo helicopter safety day later this year.
But those who attend Safety presentations are generally the least likely to have a mishap. It's a mindset thing....

[PEASACAKE]

Did I read the article correctly in the Daily Mail yesterday that the pilot/owner had just taken cocaine before the flight.

[paco]

I think it said there were traces - still not good, though.