Turkey ramps up war games in Greek air space

[Lyneham Lad]

Extract from an article in The Times (http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/turkey-ramps-up-war-games-in-greek-air-space-g653lcbsf?shareToken=57563a7abb2edc030cc8108208b18e51):-
The Greek military was on heightened alert today after Turkish fighter jets invaded the country’s national airspace, buzzing over a number of islands, engaging in an aerial show of strength over the Aegean Sea.

The war games increased fears of a confrontation between the two countries as relations between Ankara, Athens and other European capitals deteriorated ahead of a referendum on April 16 that could boost the powers of President Erdogan, the Turkish leader.

Officials at the Ministry of Defence in Athens said sorties of F-4 and F-16 Turkish warplanes were intercepted by Greek fighter jets after they flew into national airspace on 37 separate occasions in the past three days. At least two of the Turkish jets were armed yesterday while two others flew at low altitudes over small islets north of Agathonisi in the southeast of the Aegean Sea, alarming their 100 inhabitants.

Should it come to fisticuffs, one wonders how NATO would react to both sides triggering an Article 5 call... :eek:

[Just This Once...]

For all intents and purposes Turkey has left NATO. NATO countries have withdrawn all but essential personnel from the country and the US have withdrawn all dependants. All Turkish military personnel serving with NATO have been immediately arrested on their return to Turkey and those who have not returned home are seeking asylum in various NATO countries. Some of these asylum applications have already been granted.

In these testing times a war with Turkey is no longer unthinkable.

[A_Van]

What makes this violation really special?


Such things happen between the two countries for some 3 decades already. Some planes and lives were even lost. E.g. there were 2000+ violations of Greek's airspace by Turkey in 2014 alone:


Turkish, Greek Jets Engage In Dogfight Over Mediterranean | Zero Hedge (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-12-29/turkish-greek-jets-get-dogfight-over-mediterranean)

[Sandy Parts]

Visited Geilenkirchen many years ago to see an ex-Kipper eng on the NATO E3. Joined in the Oktoberfest in the Hangar and speaking to the various nation's aviators involved operating the aircraft, it quickly became clear the Turkey/Greece relationship was a major issue. Crew complements and rosters were being changed purely on this basis. Madness, but I guess while both countries are paying in to the Nato coffers, the top brass pretend it works just fine.

[PPRuNeUser0139]

In the 80s, a Greek colleague in a NATO HQ showed me an official Greek govt English language newspaper where it stated that their N°1 enemy wasn't the Warsaw Pact but - yes, you've guessed it - Turkey.

[Whenurhappy]

For all intents and purposes Turkey has left NATO. NATO countries have withdrawn all but essential personnel from the country and the US have withdrawn all dependants. All Turkish military personnel serving with NATO have been immediately arrested on their return to Turkey and those who have not returned home are seeking asylum in various NATO countries. Some of these asylum applications have already been granted.

In these testing times a war with Turkey is no longer unthinkable.

Not quite true. LANDCOM is up and running (and couldn't survive without Turkish HN support) as is NRDC (T) in Istanbul. US dependents are likely to return shortly (not all left, contrary to popular opinion). Turkey commits resources to SNMG 2, SNMCMG, and is gradually repopulating overseas posts. Turkey reconfirmed its commitment to NATO during Tillerson's visit - and continues to run QRA in the Black Sea.

Remember that the coup attempt on 15/16 July was very real. Imagine, if you will, elements of the Household Cavalry running over protestors on Westminster Bridge (gulp!) and Tower bridge and tanks shelling both the Houses of Parliament and Buckingham Palace. AAC Apaches scything through protestors on the Mall and in Whitehall with chain guns and Typhoons bombing Parliament, New Scotland Yard, Holyrood, Hereford and BT Satellite Ground Stations ...meanwhile rogue SF teams attack Gleneagles to attempt to kill the PM and to Sandringham to kill HM, lead by Commander HMNB Clyde. Other teams occupy Broadcasting House and hold guns to the heads of announcers.

Meanwhile CDS is taken hostage by his own PSO; CAS's house staff take his family hostage and AOC 22 Gp holds a gun to CAS's head at a wedding of COS Ops's daughter. Meanwhile DSF is shot at point blank range by his ADC (who is then killed by his Staff Sgt). All the sS chief are bound and flown by helicopter to RAF Coningsby and locked up in rooms in the Mess. This is what happened.

There was nothing soft and fluffy about the coup attempt and Turkey is taking a long time to recover - sacking 30% of its F-16 pilots and 44% of its General/Flag officers because of their complicity.

Yes, Erdogan is exploiting the crisis for political gain, but as the UK has seen, supporting Turkey is a better optic than tactitly hoping the coup had been sucessful.

[Just This Once...]

I struggle to imagine a UK that could descend to the depths Erdogan has achieved in order to prompt so many good men to even consider a coup.

[Whenurhappy]

I struggle to imagine a UK that could descend to the depths Erdogan has achieved in order to prompt so many good men to even consider a coup.


No we wouldn't, I agree - but as I described it above - and you were to subsitute the names and locations - that is exactly what happened in Turkey. Previous coups have been reasonably quiet transfer of power - no street fighting etc - but loads of extrajudicial killings, executions etc..

But back to the Thread. Do not believe everything the Greeks claim - they can be as equally difficult as the Turks and the history of the Aegean leaves egg on our faces, too - such as in 1947 awarding islands that sat only a couple of hundred metres off the Turkish mainland to Greece - after they had been occupied by the Nazis. Greece also claims the FIR boundary as sovereign air space - and Turkey deliberately flies through what they believe as international airspace, to demonstrate customary usage.

[AnglianAV8R]

Coup ? Or maybe a false flag ? Engineered to enable the sultan to grab more power.

[Whenurhappy]

Coup ? Or maybe a false flag ? Engineered to enable the sultan to grab more power.

Oh , pul-leeeese. Without a doubt, Erdogan isn't wasting the opportunity the coup attempt has given him, and he - at best - set the conditions for a coup, by announcing the intention, inter alia, to dismiss 1400 Colonels in the August YAS. But every time I hear false-flag, I scream conspira-loon!

[Rwy in Sight]

Whenurhappy,

in 1947 awarding islands that sat only a couple of hundred metres off the Turkish mainland to Greece.

Those islands and islets belong to the Dodecanisus complex which was Italian soil before WWII - when Italy surrendered they were occupied by the NAZIs as you are rightly said. In other words Greece took over from Italy with Turkey having nothing to do with it.

Regarding a gap between Greece's sovereign air space and FIR boundary that's a major mistake of the Greek government - they should have brought territorial waters and air space boundaries to 12 miles a very long time ago.

What is annoying is that Greece keeps announcing those violations which are a fairly common occurrences like after work drinks on Friday nights. As a matter of fact as Whenurhappy correctly points out that those violations are parts of a custom in the area. In fact a former Minister of Foreign Affairs in Greece said once that it would be much better, in financial terms for both countries if just Turkey announced the flew in the disputed parts of the air space and Greece announced the intercept that flight.

[Whenurhappy]

The Dodecanese were seized by Italy in 1911 (and Libya) from the Ottomans on what was naked Empire-building. The UK could have/should have lobbied for these to have been returned to Turkey but there was concerns about the remaining Christian population there.

[Basil]

Well, in 1974 Greek plans for Enosis in Cyprus resulted in a bloody nose for them from Turkey. Brought it on themselves.

[Basil]

but there was concerns about the remaining Christian population there.
And not without good cause remembering the Armenian holocaust which the Turks would like us to forget.

[Herod]

Well, in 1974 Greek plans for Enosis in Cyprus resulted in a bloody nose for them from Turkey. Brought it on themselves.

If the British Government had stuck to their responsibilities within the tripartite agreement, the island would still be united.

[Rwy in Sight]

Well, in 1974 Greek plans for Enosis in Cyprus resulted in a bloody nose for them from Turkey. Brought it on themselves.
Plus a lot of Greeks believed that the 1967 - 1974 junta came in power to surrender a part of Cyprus to Turkey thus their fall just few days after the beginning of the Turkish invasion.
Currently I am not sure if the Greek government will like to risk a confrontation knowing the effectiveness of their armed forces. Their performance during the last crisis back in January 1996 was dissapointing to say the least.

[AnglianAV8R]

If the British Government had stuck to their responsibilities within the tripartite agreement, the island would still be united.

There was already effective partition on the island, since 'Akritas' in 1963, when Turkey almost invaded.

As for causes, it goes deeper than local / regional rivalries and a certain chap by the name of Kissinger has a lot to answer for. Yet another conflict that seems to have a connection with US foreign policy.

It is a tragedy. Cyprus is a beautiful island with some of the most hospitable folks on the planet.

[Herod]

But if the British had sent in a small force, removed Sampson and reinstated Makarious, the colonels would have had their wrists slapped, and all would have returned to the Status Quo, which was what the Tripartite Agreement was all about.

[Rwy in Sight]

Then Herod why this did not happened? BTW a very interesting theory that it seems it holds water!

[MACH2NUMBER]

To go back to the Aegean problem. When serving with NAEW&C Force Command I spent some unpleasant hours being bounced in and out of the Greek and Turkish Milrep offices in SHAPE. As each side tried to prove that the NAEW&C Force were partial to one side or the other. All handbags at dawn.

[Whenurhappy]

HMG does not have a position on sovereignty claims in the Aegean (sensibly most European countries and the US also follow this line); the FCO advises that both sides should seek arbitration.

[Herod]

Then Herod why this did not happened? BTW a very interesting theory that it seems it holds water!

For that you would have to ask the British Government of the time. Prime Minister and Foreign Secretary would be a good place to start.

[ShotOne]

By your earlier post, Herod about sending in a small force, are you suggesting we should have gone to war with Turkey? Did we really have a duty to risk our soldiers lives for territory whose people not so long before conducted a sustained terrorist campaign against those same forces?

[Herod]

No, certainly not Turkey. I'm talking about before the invasion, when the Greek colonels staged what was effectively a coup, attempting to capture the Head of State (Makarias) and installing their own puppet (Sampson). Removing said (illegal) puppet and re-instating the (legal) Head of State would have re-established the Status Quo.

[AnglianAV8R]

But if the British had sent in a small force, removed Sampson and reinstated Makarious, the colonels would have had their wrists slapped, and all would have returned to the Status Quo, which was what the Tripartite Agreement was all about.

I agree with you and so did our government, to some degree at least, but our chums across the pond (Kissinger) had other plans.

[ShotOne]

Really? Even though the Greek Cypriots had forcefully made the point, backed up with bombs and bullets, that they didn't want British help, most certainly not British military help, to run their affairs?

[Rwy in Sight]

ShotOne, it would be useful to differentiate between Greek Cypriots and Greeks. From what I understand Makarios was much loved among Cypriots. The problem was mainly with the Greek government and their decision to get rid of Makarios.

[2805662]

As for causes, it goes deeper than local / regional rivalries and a certain chap by the name of Kissinger has a lot to answer for. Yet another conflict that seems to have a connection with US foreign policy.



One has to be careful about glass houses and all that, especially when considering the effects that arbitrary lines on maps and the end of empire continue to have across the world.

[AnglianAV8R]

Oh , pul-leeeese. Without a doubt, Erdogan isn't wasting the opportunity the coup attempt has given him, and he - at best - set the conditions for a coup, by announcing the intention, inter alia, to dismiss 1400 Colonels in the August YAS. But every time I hear false-flag, I scream conspira-loon!


Operation Northwoods
Gulf of Tonkin Incident
USS Liberty
Operation Gladio.

[ShotOne]

This isn't Kissinger's fault. And neither is it a one-sided matter of aggression by Turkey. If Mexico extended its sovereignty claim the same way as Greece, there would be US jets whizzing through every day of the week.

[Eclectic]

The Greek Islands that the Turks harass have no Greek military presence because of the Treaty Of Lausanne.
I have been on one of these islands when the Turkish airforce beat it up, which residents tell me is a regular occurrence.

Ikaria has the topography of an upturned boat rising out of the water, lying East/West in the middle of the Aegean and rising to more than 3,000 feet.
The two F16s came over from West to East over the land along the North side of the island, well below the level of the peaks, maybe 100ft above the ground. They were travelling very rapidly and were very loud indeed. They repeated this a few minutes later. The local attitude is that the Turks are just children playing.

The big danger is that Ikaria has a civilian airport, with the runway running North South, near its Eastern tip. The runway is in an partly artificially created valley (there is very little flat land on the island) so aircraft taking off suddenly pop up out of it, at 90 degrees to the path of the F16s. The Turkish F16s obviously aren't under Greek ATC and they cannot see what is on the runway until the very last second. If a civil aircraft was taking off at the same time that an F16 was making a low level pass then there would be zero time to take avoiding action. The only redeeming fact is that the runway only sees a small number of movements each day.

The photo is of Ikaria from the East.
https://www.euroga.org/system/1/user_files/files/000/013/083/13083/a680ac33b/large/Ikaria.JPG

[GlobalNav]

Barrage balloons, anyone?

[Eclectic]

The locals say Turkey beats up Ikaria about 50 times a year, most often when they want to distract from domestic problems.
Occasionally the Greek AF turn up, as in this video. You can clearly see Ikaria in it:
SCRAMBLE DOGFIGHT GREEK F-16 Vs TURKISH F-16 (IKARIA) ? SAMOSVIDEO.COM (http://www.samosvideo.com/?p=2098)

[ORAC]

Greece intercepts Turkish drone over Rhodes (http://www.ekathimerini.com/227472/article/ekathimerini/news/greece-intercepts-turkish-drone-over-rhodes)

http://www.ekathimerini.com/resources/2018-04/drone_web-thumb-large.jpg

The Greek air force has intercepted a Turkish military drone that violated Greece’s national airspace in the southeastern Aegean, Kathimerini has learned.

The Turkish Anka unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV ANKA) twice entered Greek airspace above the Dodecanese island of Rhodes, at an altitude of 19,000-20,000 feet on Thursday. The drone was intercepted by Greek F-16 fighter jets that took off from Kasteli air base on Crete.

On Thursday, Greek and Turkish fighter jets engaged in two dogfights over the Aegean, after the Turkish jets violated Greek airspace 16 times in the northeast, central and southeastern Aegean.

[BEagle]

Was it merely intercepted and identified, or was it subsequently engaged?

[glad rag]

What NATO needs to do about Turkey is build a big wall around the western border.

The EU are also keen to support the dictator having, as of 2013, given 990 million in euros for democratic and social development........

[Heathrow Harry]

I'd rather have them still in NATO than have Mr Putin there................

[2805662]

Putin is already in Turkey (see the S400 sale)...and Turkey is NATO in name only (NINO - again, see the S400 sale).