33 French Stinsons - where are they now?

[CloudHound]

Looking for help with a major piece of research upon which I've embarked.

In 1940 just before France fell, 33 Stinson HW75 liaison a/c were purchased from mostly private owners in the US and Canada to be shipped over the Atlantic from Newfoundland.

There's a long a fascinating story (worthy of a film) of how each one found its way to Newfoundland and threads of that story, post war, of where some ended up.

Two came to the UK from French Aero Clubs in the 70/80s and and I have some data on a few more.

So what happened to the 25 or so others?

Any avenues of enquiry forumites can suggest, on here or by pm, would be very much appreciated. Thanks

[DaveReidUK]

I can help with half-a-dozen of them, including the two that came to the UK:

7039 NC22586, to French AF 22586, subsequently F-BGQP, G-AFYO
7040 NC21189, to French AF 21189, subsequently F-BGOO, G-BCUM, G-BMSA, G-MIRM, G-BMSA
7043 NC25545, to French AF 25545, subsequently F-BDJI
7079 NC22523, to French AF 22523, subsequently F-BFXP
7094 NC23727, to French AF 23727, subsequently F-BFXQ
7249 N15143, to French AF 15143, subsequently SL-AAN, D-EMUB, OY-EFP

[megan]

Did the French really order 600 as mentioned on the web?

[CloudHound]

Thanks Dave,

Interesting to see the French used the US reg as their serial number.

[barit1]

The Howard DGA series has been my specialty. I know that three new DGA-15P were contracted by Free French and were completed about the time of Pearl Harbor (12/41). These seem to be serials 550,551, and 552. (The prototype DGA-15 was 500)

I know photos of at least one appears in a Howard advertisement of the day. They appear to be adapted for ambulance duty, with a large R/H door.

Is there an archive or other resource to discover usage, disposition, etc. of these Howards?

Thanks!

[treadigraph]

"Cloud Hound", that name rings bell (painted blue and yellow!)

[Dr. Jamieson]

The Stinson HW-75 aircraft were transferred to the RCAF in 1940. They came over the border with both American and Canadian registration. This was done to circumvent the US Neutrality Act in place at that time. The aircraft were then assigned RCAF serial numbers and reverted to the original Canadian registration at wars end. These aircraft are very rare and as far as we know there is only one example of an original HW-75 extant in Canada. There are a few flying in the US but they are usually model 10's or 10-A's with 85 hp Continental or Franklin engines. This information is out there on Google.

[onetrack]

Did the French really order 600 as mentioned on the web?From what I have read, it was not unusual for wartime orders to be placed for huge numbers of items of equipment.
It was a time of fear, of uncertainty, and of projections of the worst magnitude, based on the worst fears.
Even in the U.S., after the country entered WW2, massive equipment orders were placed, and then modified again with weeks - often to even larger order numbers.
The U.S. had to form committees to ascertain the capabilities of raw resources and manufacturing facilities, able to support production figures, that were required to reach completely unforeseen levels.

There are regular references to the 600 Stinson aircraft ordered by the French - but it appears obvious that any French records pertaining to this order have long been destroyed.

There's a pretty comprehensive and detailed Stinson specification and production record in the link below.

Stinson (http://aerofiles.com/_stin.html)

[DaveReidUK]

These aircraft are very rare and as far as we know there is only one example of an original HW-75 extant in Canada.

There are seven examples currently on the Canadian register.

[Dr. Jamieson]

Regarding the seven Stinson HW-75 aircraft registered in Canada, our research has indicated that there are additional aircraft that are not currently registered but, as stated, only one original unmolested example of the type with the original Continental 75 hp top side exhaust surviving. Any information about these aircraft would be greatly appreciated. After the war most of the surviving examples were usually re-engined and modified.

[CloudHound]

All,

Thanks for the contributions. I should have said I've been trawling the inter web for years. I've recently put together a list of all known 1939 HW-75s ordered by construction number not sequentially by N number.

This is a short extract of three pages, compiled from FAA, Canadian, French, Algerian and UK Registers. Also Aerofiles, Airport Data, Air Net and a number of contacts in France:-

21121 Stinson HW75,7000 no data Prototype
Stinson 105, 7001 no data
21136 Stinson 105, 7002 no data
21181 Stinson 105, 7003 no data
21137 Stinson 105, 7004 no data
21183 Stinson HW75,7005 canx 29/7/1970
21179 Stinson 105, 7006 no data
21146 Stinson 105, 7007 no data
21166 Stinson 105, 7008 no data
21151 Stinson HW75,7009 revoked
Stinson 105, 7010 no data
21142 Stinson 105, 7011 no data
21161 Stinson 105, 7012 is c/n 7846? duplicate reg; s/n 7012?
21140 Stinson 105, 7013 no data
21168 Stinson 105, 7014 no data
21143 Stinson 105, 7015 no data
21180 Stinson 105, 7016 no data
Stinson 105, 7017 no data
21157 Stinson 105, 7018 no data
21150 Stinson 105, 7019 no data
21138 Stinson HW75,7020 cancelled 6/10/1977
21139 Stinson 105, 7021 no data
21145 Stinson 105, 7022 no data
21163 Stinson 105, 7023 no data
21165 Stinson HW75,7024 active USA
21159 Stinson 105, 7025 To Canada as CF-CHI
21160 Stinson 105, 7026 no data
21173 Stinson 105, 7027 no data F-OAAG
21169 Stinson HW75,7028 active USA
21167 Stinson 105, 7029 no data
22544 Stinson 105, 7030 no data
Stinson 105, 7031 no data
21162 Stinson 105, 7032 no data
21153 Stinson HW75,7033 canx 21/5/1965
21171 Stinson 105, 7034 no data
21177 Stinson 105, 7035 no data
21184 Stinson 105, 7036 no data
21188 Stinson 105, 7037 no data
21187 Stinson 10A, 7038 expired 4/5/2015
21189 Stinson 105, 7039 exported to France 13/6/1940 F-BGQO
21190 Stinson 105, 7040 corrupted data
21172 Stinson 105, 7041 no data
22503 Stinson 105, 7042 expired 22/7/2011
25545 Stinson 105, 7043 exported to France F-BDJI
21192 Stinson 105, 7044 no data
21149 Stinson 105, 7045 destroyed 18/4/1966
21154 Stinson 105, 7046 canx 22/2/1956
21144 Stinson HW75,7047 canx 17/6/1970
Stinson 105, 7048 no data
21164 Stinson 105, 7049 active USA
etc.,

If anyone wants all of my list, has any gaps to fill in or can show me how to host the list I would be very grateful.

There's a long time error which I've corrected in my list as, G-AFYO is c/n 7039 and was NC21189 and F-BGQO. Whereas Cloud Hound is c/n 7155 (not 7040) and was NC22586 and F-BGQP. The big question is what became of c/n 7040 NC21190?

Treadders, I'm guessing you don't mean I was yellow and blue? Yes he was that plane, became G-MIRM (a girl!) and is slowly changing back to my belov'd.

[Kewbick]

Montreal, August 19, 1940:
http://i1047.photobucket.com/albums/b477/gumpjr_bucket/bcatp-aircraft-stinson-may-montreal-ground-pl-2140.jpg

C-FBSU:
http://i1047.photobucket.com/albums/b477/gumpjr_bucket/stinson%20hw75%20rcaf.jpg

[DaveReidUK]

If anyone wants all of my list, has any gaps to fill in or can show me how to host the list I would be very grateful.

I can't help with the hosting, but I'd love a copy of the complete list, please.

[A30yoyo]

It should be pointed out that G-AFYO was allocated to this Stinson long long after WWII as a 'retro' style registration. At the beginning of WWII it was first assigned to one of British Airways never to be delivered Douglas DC-5s, then to a Bristol Bombay (never applied) and in 1944 to an American Liberator on the first Sonnie flight to Sweden (painted on in Sweden briefly for diplomatic reasons)

[CloudHound]

Deleted as Kewbick beat me to it.

[CloudHound]

Yes and when I asked the CAA Registrar for G-AFYP back in 1985 I was miffed when told they didn't do that anymore.

[DaveReidUK]

It should be pointed out that G-AFYO was allocated to this Stinson long long after WWII as a 'retro' style registration. At the beginning of WWII it was first assigned to one of British Airways never to be delivered Douglas DC-5s, then to a Bristol Bombay (never applied) and in 1944 to an American Liberator on the first Sonnie flight to Sweden (painted on in Sweden briefly for diplomatic reasons)

Yes, after being demobbed from l'Armee de l'Air it was operated by Aero Club Air France, based at Lognes (just outside Paris) until cancelled from the French register on 5th December 1973. It then seems to have gone into limbo for a few years until taking up G-AFYO in April 1977.

[treadigraph]

Treadders, I'm guessing you don't mean I was yellow and blue?
:ok: Many years ago, a well-known former owner parked it outside his home on a trailer, just half a mile from where I am now - to the delight of we aircraft-mad young lads. I think it had been recovered from a gale-assisted mishap in the Orkneys. The blue & yellow paint scheme accompanied the repairs at Biggin as I recall. I occasionally see him walking his dog on the local common and say hello.

[CloudHound]

From the photo I have-

BRY
BSB 23742
BSC
BSG
BSK
BSL 22509
BSN
BSM 2***3
BSO or D
BSP 23782

[tonytales]

In Post #14, A300yoyo nebtuibsm re registrations of Stinson's:
At the beginning of WWII it was first assigned to one of British Airways never to be delivered Douglas DC-5s,
I have never seen any reference to any interest or orders for Douglas DC-5 on behalf of British Airways or any other British airline.
The DC-5 was a rare bird, only 12 being produced for KLM and the US Navy and Marine Corps. I realize the outbreak of WW-II curtailed production and would have cancelled any further orders. The reserving of a Registration for a DC-5 by British Airways as you indicate certainly indicates some interest.
I would appreciate any links to any information on possible british airline orders.

[megan]

tony, the chronicler of British aviation "Flight" makes no mention, other than to say, "The DC-5 was designed and built just prior to the war in direct competition with the D.H, Flamingo".

[tonytales]

I should have done a little more research. On the web in one of the blogs on the DC-5 I found the following:
British Airways also originally ordered this aircraft for use on the London to Berlin route and one of nine ordered by the company for this purpose. Allocated the registration of G-AFYI. With the outbreak of war in Europe the Air Ministry instructed the company not to proceed with the order and the deposit paid was transferred to other Douglas aircraft for use by the Air Force.
Still it was a bit surprising inasmuch the Lockheed twins were already in service in England although their capacity not quite as large.
Of course I should have consulted Renr J. Francillon's definitive book on Douglas which covers the 1939 vintage British Airways who did purchase nine DC-5. It sys they did a comparative study of the Flamingo versus the DC-5 and picked the DC-5. Two aircraft were scheduled for delivery in December, 1939 to Floyd Bennett Field, NY but as already mentioned the Air Ministry cancelled the purchase and thereby releasing the reserved registrations for the Stinsons. Apologize for my thread drift.

[CloudHound]

Hi TonyT,

Thanks for acknowledging TD, now back to the search.

Is there public access to the original Canadian Civil Register to trace these 10?

Update. Answering my own question; yes there is.
http://www.rwrwalker.ca/Civil_cdn_1_ww2.html

I'll fill up my list and see what that does to fill in the blanks.

[India Four Two]

Cloud Hound,

You can find the currently registered Canadian HW-75s here:

CCARCS-RIACC - Quick Search Result (http://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/Saf-Sec-Sur/2/CCARCS-RIACC/RchSimpRes.aspx?cn=STINSON%7c&mn=HW%7c&sn=%7c%7c&on=%7c%7c&m=%7c%7c)

[DaveReidUK]

You can find the currently registered Canadian HW-75s here:

CCARCS-RIACC - Quick Search Result (http://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/Saf-Sec-Sur/2/CCARCS-RIACC/RchSimpRes.aspx?cn=STINSON%7c&mn=HW%7c&sn=%7c%7c&on=%7c%7c&m=%7c%7c)

Though note that there's one more (CF-BST 7055), also current on the Canadian register but described as a "105" rather than an HW-75.

CCARCS-RIACC - Aircraft Details (http://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/Saf-Sec-Sur/2/CCARCS-RIACC/ADet.aspx?id=20781&rfr=RchSimpRes.aspx?cn=STINSON|&mn=105)

[A30yoyo]

[QUOTE=tonytales;972596. Two aircraft were scheduled for delivery in December, 1939 to Floyd Bennett Field, NY but as already mentioned the Air Ministry cancelled the purchase and thereby releasing the reserved registrations for the Stinsons. Apologize for my thread drift.[/QUOTE]
The delivery schedules by sea for all 9 DC-5s running into early 1940 had been arranged before the cancellation when WWII broke out.
As mentioned before it was many years before the vacant registration G-AFYO was allocated to that Stinson