Legend !

[goathead]

DS
Your my hero!
You are willing to resign from training !
About time ! Will other trainers follow ? Or will they not !
Me thinks NO
Perhaps DS , you can settle for next best , and write another letter! And you! DS can be the instigator !!
Goat

[Liam Gallagher]

i wondered how DS was going to square that circle.

Training Captain DS wrote to Training Captain DN, President of HKALPA, instructing him to write to IFALPA asking member unions to not assist in training Cathay pilots. This was obviously very hypocritical given that both DS and DN were themselves assisting in training Cathay pilots (coz it's different issinit?).

DS apparently has done the right thing - legend- I wonder if DN will follow suit? After all, he presides over HKALPA which wrote to IFALPA.

That only leaves the DPA and Air Hong Kong to justify their position. They were parties to approaching IFALPA, yet their pilots assist in training Cathay pilots....also hypocritical.....

[Staggers]

That only leaves the DPA and Air Hong Kong to justify their position. They were parties to approaching IFALPA, yet their pilots assist in training Cathay pilots....also hypocritical.....[/QUOTE]

err..
apart from the fact that they (the DPA) approached the AOA who didn't have a problem with it

[Liam Gallagher]

I assumed DS is el Presidilgo.

If he hasn't resigned from training, he's one heck of hypocrite and makes us all look like plonkers when IFALPA finds out.

[Xwindldg]

Yes well done. Let's do everything we possibly can to delay upgrades and career progression for many years to come. Brilliant, time to win.

[Liam Gallagher]

Staggers,

Yep... the HKAOA and DPA worked together last year. However, things have now changed. The DPA, as part of HKALPA, has written to IFALPA asking them to ask their member unions to deny training facilities, yet the DPA is providing training facilities. The DPA and HKAOA are a bunch of hypocrites.

[goathead]

No are not talking about el presidential, he wont resign as far as he is concerned its best to have a sandal in each camp
We are talking about cos 99 trainer who has threatened to resign over cx cuts to healthcare providers.

[RAT Management]

What's there to respect..... He hasn't done anything of substance..... He probably wont do anything of substance in the future either.


ITs all over

[TSIO540]

That only leaves the DPA and Air Hong Kong to justify their position. They were parties to approaching IFALPA, yet their pilots assist in training Cathay pilots....also hypocritical.....

How would you expect a KA trainer to refuse a rostered duty and keep their job? CX pilots are entitled to refuse training outside of Cathay but don't... we don't want to be training other airline crews.

[Liam Gallagher]

TSIO540,

I think we are actually in agreement.

The short answer is that I do not expect a KA Trainer to engage in the "denial of Training Facilities" (to adopt the language of the IFALPA letter).

It would be incredibly two faced/weak/gutless for the HKAOA to expect the DPA (or any other union) to withhold Training when the HKAOA is not doing that themselves (rightly or wrongly?). However, that is exactly what HKALPA (which includes the HKAOA and DPA) are doing by requesting "denial of Training Facilities" from IFALPA member unions.

IMHO this reflects very poorly on us all. However, the Presidents of both the HKAOA or IFALPA really stand out as they signed the letters of request, yet they personally provide training facilities to Cathay. I bet they didn't mention that in the letters of request!!

Would it not be great if we could get others to fight our fights for us?

[Xwindldg]

TB is effective all right, effective at screwing all the SOs and FOs. We're not even going to get an offer as good as the last one we turned down so this has all been a big waste of time. It's not a win if the AOA successfully blocks guys/girls getting an upgrade.

[Xwindldg]

Yeah curtain just an upgrade that's all, nothing important! I hope you're not on the CG because you are obviously waaaay out of touch.

[goathead]

Curtain
Please refain from bothering with Xwind hes a pillock, everyone knows that.

[ChinaBeached]

Xwnd - it's always about YOU. How you're hard done by simply by begging to scoff at the crumbs of a substandard package.... How the real pilots that you can never aspire to come close to matching in professionalism, maturity let alone airmanship fight for the long term betterment of the CX pilot body. Yes, the same one you begged to undermine via accepting a contract that placed undeniable pressure upon their long term security. But hey, it's all about YOU!

And you still wonder why ignorant brats like you are despised at CX? You represent all that is dispicable in our industry: self interest & greed.

[Xwindldg]

Well, I'm in the AOA and pay them some of the "crumbs" I earn every month unlike some others who have been here for nearly 20 years then make a near death bed conversion.

China I bet you're a skipper right?

[iceman50]

Xwindldg

The vocal ChinaBeached is not even at Cathay he just preaches how wonderful he is to have "turned down" an offer to work here whilst attacking thos ethat have joined.

[ChinaBeached]

Xwnd - you'e only a member of the AOA to be seen as "one of the boys", nothing more. You've demonstrated your disapproval on their stance on CC and the TB, etc... The main issues of this and other threads. The AOA opposed your existence at CX due to C-Scale: the very lowering of credentials that you are. So it's ironic that you pay money to a body that a) opposed you being at CX and b) you oppose their direction and stance is laughable. I'm sure that percentage of your salary that is paid to the AOA won't make a different if a member of the GC puts 1 or 2 teaspoons of sugar of their soy latte tomorrow - but good of you for thinking you're one of the fellas!

Ice - how "wonderful" I am? That's a very colourful word! Am I "gleeful" and "exuberant" as well? Or did you we disturb you from a Judy Garland movie marathon? No, I never said my decision was "wonderful". I used experience, credentials and integrity to make my decision. I know my decision was the right one. Just as I know that submitting my bank details in response to email promising me a share in a lucrative gold mine in Africa is plain DUMB. Whilst C-Scale and such emails are the same, guys like Xwnd would still be running around Africa with a shovel in his hand getting angry about how he's been hard done by....

[Xwindldg]

China,

So you're not in the AOA and you don't even work for CX, why are you even bothering to post anything here? You've got no dog in this fight and you have no idea what's going on. Really weird that you post such angry stuff and you don't even work here.

[Betsy and Nikki]

TB is effective all right, effective at screwing all the SOs and FOs. We're not even going to get an offer as good as the last one we turned down so this has all been a big waste of time. It's not a win if the AOA successfully blocks guys/girls getting an upgrade.

Ironic :ugh:... you joined on C scale thinking you would get better terms and conditions later on in your career. Clearly you didn't do any research on the history between CX management and the AOA. Be grateful that you have a job and a steady income. But of course that is never enough for you young joiners, always fed with a silver spoon growing up and being impatient (I want, I want, I want now!)

Also, now you have the audacity to say that the TB is "screwing all the SOs and FOs" := when you accepted the C scale offer in the first place. Get real!!

[goathead]

For the benefit of Mcnugget and xwind and all other 3 yr old new joiners
When PW ( a past president ) was voted in he immediately resigned from being a trainer
Thats integrity and not having a sandal in each camp.

[McNugget]

For the benefit of Mcnugget and xwind and all other 3 yr old new joiners
When PW ( a past president ) was voted in he immediately resigned from being a trainer
Thats integrity and not having a sandal in each camp.

Umm... I'm not a 3 year old new joiner. But thanks.

I appreciate (and agree with) your point. However, CB is nothing but a psychotic fraud who won't go away.

Who do you work for again, CB? Oh yes, you won't say.

Ps. Standing by for a long winded rant...

[MENELAUS]

No PW did mot immediately resign from c and t..took about 18 months.. hardly a short marching pace...

[McNugget]

Ironic :ugh:... you joined on C scale thinking you would get better terms and conditions later on in your career. Clearly you didn't do any research on the history between CX management and the AOA. Be grateful that you have a job and a steady income. But of course that is never enough for you young joiners, always fed with a silver spoon growing up and being impatient (I want, I want, I want now!)

Also, now you have the audacity to say that the TB is "screwing all the SOs and FOs" := when you accepted the C scale offer in the first place. Get real!!

I didn't think I'd get better at all

However, as an FO3, please do tell me where I'd make 115,000 a month, plus p-fund and allowances elsewhere. I reckon I've got m ear to the ground, but obviously you know best.

Also - do advise me of which jobs out there I'm not qualified for. 4500hrs 777, 3000 right seat. 1700+ in GA. Batchelors and Masters degrees. I would love to hear all about it (again).

While you're at it, a few yarns from your days in the military wouldn't go amiss.

Oh, that's right, they would.

[McNugget]

Ironic :ugh:... you joined on C scale thinking you would get better terms and conditions later on in your career. Clearly you didn't do any research on the history between CX management and the AOA. Be grateful that you have a job and a steady income. But of course that is never enough for you young joiners, always fed with a silver spoon growing up and being impatient (I want, I want, I want now!)

Also, now you have the audacity to say that the TB is "screwing all the SOs and FOs" := when you accepted the C scale offer in the first place. Get real!!
Strangely enough, I joined expecting better over time. The global market led me to such a conclusion. Funnily enough, that has happened.

I wonder what the future holds.

Any guesses?

[mngmt mole]

Anotherday. You say that freighter crew have the 'right' to quit CC. Huh? Although I appreciate they are particularly affected, it doesn't give them, or any other member, the 'right' to unilaterally quit CC. If they want to resign from the AOA first then certainly. There is no guarantee that each group would share the burden 'evenly'. The only answer to this dysfunctional industrial mess of an airline is to stick together and insist on proper terms and conditions.

[Steve the Pirate]

The only answer to this dysfunctional industrial mess of an airline is to stick together and insist on proper terms and conditions.

Insist on? To me, the ability to insist on something depends on being in a position of strength (in this case dependent upon unity) and having significant leverage over the person(s) of whom you are making your demands.

Or did you mean negotiate?

STP

[mngmt mole]

Yes, that. :)

[Betsy and Nikki]

I didn't think I'd get better at all

Strangely enough, I joined expecting better over time. The global market led me to such a conclusion. Funnily enough, that has happened.

Which one is it? As I previously mentioned to Xwindldg, prior research would have broadened your knowledge.

However, as an FO3, please do tell me where I'd make 115,000 a month, plus p-fund and allowances elsewhere. I reckon I've got m ear to the ground, but obviously you know best.

Also - do advise me of which jobs out there I'm not qualified for. 4500hrs 777, 3000 right seat. 1700+ in GA. Batchelors and Masters degrees. I would love to hear all about it (again).

That is all very good however it is not for me to worry about, rather it is for you to worry about. If you are not happy, then leave. That is what's best.

You must have joined after 2011 as someone who is now on FO3, had a short stint as an S/O (2yrs) compared to some others that were +4yrs. If you are not contempt with gaining experience from the right seat, earning a stable income, travelling the globe and simply being in a rush to get your Command rather than riding out the cycles that the aviation industry brings, then may I suggest that you go to other airlines that offer a quicker command. Maybe the ME as it's closer to home. :ok:

While you're at it, a few yarns from your days in the military wouldn't go amiss.

Oh, that's right, they would.
That's all good and well but I've never been in the military. Though, listening to their stories would be a lot more interesting rather than listening to you complain how you have been hard done by :ugh:

[Dragon69]

FO3 and 4500 hours? How do you figure?

[McNugget]

FO3 and 4500 hours? How do you figure?

6 and a bit years in. 3 years since jfo upgrade. May be a shade less. Haven't done my logbook tallies in a while, but the point I was making still stands.

[Dragon69]

6 and a bit years in. 3 years since jfo upgrade. May be a shade less. Haven't done my logbook tallies in a while, but the point I was making still stands.

Most airlines don't recognize SO time as you're technically not rated on type.

3x900=2700 You can then exclude bunk time which is roughly 50%. 2700/2=1350. Let's round it up to 1500.

[McNugget]

Most airlines don't recognize SO time as you're technically not rated on type.

3x900=2700 You can then exclude bunk time which is roughly 50%. 2700/2=1350. Let's round it up to 1500.
Actually, most airlines recognise SO time once you're P1 rated.

And no, my bunk time isn't anywhere near 50%.

Glad you know my logbook better than me.

Back to my point - what does my (lack of) experience preclude me from?

What direct entry FO airline gigs require more than 5000+ total and 3 years right seat?

[Dragon69]

I don't have to know your log book, unless you're fudging hours. In case you haven't figured it out Einstein it ain't difficult to figure out roughly your flying hour. Wasn't difficult to call BS on your inflated numbers.

And you have a Master's degree??? In what knitting??

[SweepTheLeg]

Remember when guys joining Cathay all had minimum 4000-5000 hours? Now all we have are 0-to-hero McNuggets

[McNugget]

Remember when guys joining Cathay all had minimum 4000-5000 hours? Now all we have are 0-to-hero McNuggets

Yeh, because it isn't rocket science anymore.

[mngmt mole]

Well, yes, until it is. And sadly there are numerous events around the world every year where experience counts far beyond the 'automatics'. :mad:

[McNugget]

Well, yes, until it is. And sadly there are numerous events around the world every year where experience counts far beyond the 'automatics'. :mad:

Correct. And many airlines, CX included, have a very long history of cadet pilots, while maintaining industry-leading safety records.

[Natca]

Correct. And many airlines, CX included, have a very long history of cadet pilots, while maintaining industry-leading safety records.

Only issue is many of those "cadets" dont make it. The real question is what is the cost to benefit ratio.

[TurningFinalRWY36]

any evidence to back that up besides your personal opinion

[McNugget]

The real question is what is the cost to benefit ratio.
I think you'll find that in the context of this conversation, that's not the real question at all.

[Betsy and Nikki]

Correct. And many airlines, CX included, have a very long history of cadet pilots, while maintaining industry-leading safety records.

Cathay has had cadet pilots since the late 1980's however no more than a handful of courses per year. The percentage of cadets to direct entry second officers/first officers (90's) was very small.

Nowadays, since the introduction of C scale from 2010/11 onwards, the majority of new joiners (cadets) have had very little, to no experience at all, compared to pre 2008. This lack of previous experience has been evident with many not passing their JFO/QL upgrades at their first attempt, compounded by not putting in the effort during their s/o days, proffering flights away in their JFO phase and then panicking once they see their QL scheduled. :ugh:

The safety standards have been maintained because many of the present captains joined with experience. Don't kid yourself :ugh:

[Oval3Holer]

McNugget, you have a "Batchelors" degree?

[Busdude]

He got it from a soup company.

[Bob Hawke]

And our managers have degrees too!

[RAT Management]

What about my training assessment line check? Can I sign on for that early?

[MENELAUS]

Rat. Brilliant.

[jumbobelle]

Reporting people...I despair.... Jesus talk about a toxic workplace!

[jumbobelle]

I wouldn't say I don't like it, I would say I find this kind of behaviour completely unacceptable in 2017. Bullying in the workplace is the common term. There are many many other CONSTRUCTIVE ways you could deal with this without intimudating colleagues who, at the end of the day are grown adults and have the right to make their own decisions. The company's behaviour is not justification for us to behave poorly.

[MENELAUS]

Thanks for the clarification Jurgen

[JayTee777300]

Yeh, because it isn't rocket science anymore.

Jesus Christ McNugget! By the fact you've been here 6 years I'm assuming you are HKPA. We have just rolled HKPA into contact compliance because apparently you guys are on a **** deal and can't afford to live in HK (which I believe by the way!) yet here you are bragging about how much you paid and how easy the job is! What's it gonna be? If you are getting paid so well and are obviously flush with cash then what the hell are we doing in contact compliance for you?

Either;
(a) you are on here as a management mole, or
(b) you are on here kicking home goals left, right centre.

Here's a little tip for negotiating. If you want a company to pay you more don't go on a public forum bragging about how much you earn. Which is why I'm thinking (a) you are a management mole... Because no one is that dumb (btw... Your pay figures appear a little embellished to me... Probably should pick more believable figures for a FO3).

We've got some guys on here complaining that CC/TB is screwing their upgrade, yet they are the self same demographic that just forced us into adding HKPA to CC thereby potentially extending it.

I'm confused as to what you guys want from us? It appears everything.

[McNugget]

Jesus Christ McNugget! By the fact you've been here 6 years I'm assuming you are HKPA. We have just rolled HKPA into contact compliance because apparently you guys are on a **** deal and can't afford to live in HK (which I believe by the way!) yet here you are bragging about how much you paid and how easy the job is! What's it gonna be? If you are getting paid so well and are obviously flush with cash then what the hell are we doing in contact compliance for you?

Either;
(a) you are on here as a management mole, or
(b) you are on here kicking home goals left, right centre.

Here's a little tip for negotiating. If you want a company to pay you more don't go on a public forum bragging about how much you earn. Which is why I'm thinking (a) you are a management mole... Because no one is that dumb (btw... Your pay figures appear a little embellished to me... Probably should pick more believable figures for a FO3).

We've got some guys on here complaining that CC/TB is screwing their upgrade, yet they are the self same demographic that just forced us into adding HKPA to CC thereby potentially extending it.

I'm confused as to what you guys want from us? It appears everything.

Calm down, petal.

I wasn't defending the contract. I was telling it as I see it. My rocket science comment? That is based on my experience. I wrote in reply to an embittered colleague who was bleating about the experience levels from days of old. My point still stands. You don't need 8000 hours to be a first officer on a modern jet.

The pay figures I quoted are on the conservative side for me. They are not embellished.

80 + 8 + 14 = 104k. Plus allowances. Plus 15.5% p-fund contribution of the 80 + 8. Thats year FO1.. It isn't bragging. It is a simple, accurate statement. Not sure what a home goal is. Is it similar to an own goal?

So, "Jesus Christ, Petal". Cool your jets.

Read what's presented to you, instead of leaping to conclusions.

[JayTee777300]

Sorry, my "Jesus Christ" comment was simply due my astonishment as to why you would come on here bragging about how much you earn whilst at the same time your peers are begging the rest of the union to double down on Contract Compliance to get you guys a better deal on HKPA?

Do your colleagues appreciate you undermining their bargaining position?

P.s. I appreciate you trying to get a rise out of me with the 'Calm down Petal' comments. Nice play ;)

[Flaender]

Thanks for the clarification Jurgen

I understand why you would confuse us, since I agree with 90% of mr. Curtain's posts and have often wanted to buy him a few rounds.
Seems like he now owes me one.

If you (think you) know me, you should also know I don't do "anonymous".
I fight full on and head on. No masks.

Blue skies.

JL

[The FUB]

McNugget.

With 8000+ hrs some will never make a half-decent FO, you included. However, with 250+hrs you are an accident looking for a grid reference. If you take your frustrations airborne with you, then you become a danger to those around you. Perhaps you are in the wrong occupation.

[McNugget]

Sorry, my "Jesus Christ" comment was simply due my astonishment as to why you would come on here bragging about how much you earn whilst at the same time your peers are begging the rest of the union to double down on Contract Compliance to get you guys a better deal on HKPA?

Do your colleagues appreciate you undermining their bargaining position?

P.s. I appreciate you trying to get a rise out of me with the 'Calm down Petal' comments. Nice play ;)

No apology necessary. As I thought I'd clarified earlier; there was no bragging. Merely a statement. It's no secret. It's up to people to decide if that will work for them. Plenty say that it won't, and that's a good thing. If answering questions honestly is undermining a bargaining position, then it appears said position is looking for a smoke-screen.

Undermining it would be me telling everyone it's awesome. I'm not doing that. All I can do is tell people answers from my perspective.

TheFUB,

Thank you for the pep-talk. I'll be sure to give it some thought, Ice-Man. Unlike you, I don't have frustrations. You're right, however, I'm sure I'll never make a decent FO - It's just so tricky!

I'm sorry you didn't get enough hugs as a child. Try not to take it out on your colleagues.

[Shutterbug]

McNugget

... Batchelors and Masters degrees.A batchelors... sounds mighty prestigious. Is that the same place Elizabeth Quat went to school? Sounds like it.

[1200firm]

Wait a minute! The chairman hasn't resigned from training? I bet Contract Compliance is not much of an embuggerence for him either. Talk about leading from the front.

[cxorcist]

I understand why you would confuse us, since I agree with 90% of mr. Curtain's posts and have often wanted to buy him a few rounds.
Seems like he now owes me one.

If you (think you) know me, you should also know I don't do "anonymous".
I fight full on and head on. No masks.

Blue skies.

JL

Does that include the times you were stabbing your "friends" in the back by betraying their trust and privacy?

You were exactly the wrong guy to be enforcing CC. You are as dirty and agenda driven as any of the CC violators you reported on. Zero integrity, the exact opposite of what you purport.

[Dilbert68]

Maybe DS can accept a promotion to STC?

He is already a complete hypocrite for remaining in training while asking the rest of the world not to assist in training CX pilots.

Hard to believe if it weren't true...

[cxorcist]

Maybe DS can accept a promotion to STC?

He is already a complete hypocrite for remaining in training while asking the rest of the world not to assist in training CX pilots.

Hard to believe if it weren't true...

Indeed, Dilbert, indeed. When will DSS wake up? Perhaps never, and the HKAOA is all the more compromised and weakened. Sad, but true.

[Numero Crunchero]

Cxorcist
in regards to your comment about JL - his integrity is without question IMO. And like him, I don't do anonymous!

[Pogie]

Actually, most airlines recognise SO time once you're P1 rated.

And no, my bunk time isn't anywhere near 50%.

Glad you know my logbook better than me.


MOST airlines recognize SO time? What in the hell are you smoking? SO time is the free **** you do to get in the right seat and start logging real time. And, as mentioned, you don't log your bunk time. You can know your logbook as much as you want, but it sounds like your logbook is a little fudged and a real airline is going to throw it back at you and you will not get hired. Not to worry, though -- there's always China, India and the Middle East for you to peddle your Parker Pen time.

[RAT Management]

aaaaaahhhhhhhh..... THis is so frustrating..... I just want this over with.... I just want to finally be able to enjoy my job again........The union is useless I am sorry to say. I just hope they can get my ass out of jail faster than they can negotiate a stop to CC and TB.:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confus ed::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confus ed::zzz::zzz::zzz::zzz:

[Jn14:6]

Anotherday.
To be fair, 'upgrade' from TC to TCC is NOT an upgrade and carries no increment, NOR is it voluntary, as ALL TC's HAVE to become TCC'S.
NOW, volunteering for training, or to go TCC to STC etc., that is a different kettle of fish.
Glad I'm going!

[Flaender]

Anotherday: EVERY member of the HKAOA that took an upgrade in training after May 2015 is no longer a member of the HKAOA. Fact!

[Zapp_Brannigan]

Anotherday, you're obviously not in the AoA and obviously a management troll.

I can think of 3 scabs who have been expelled (or resigned from the union just before being given the boot) after they took a training job or upgraded from within.

And don't worry, I'm quite sure the rest of us members will remember their names for a looooong time.

[Oasis]

Curtain,

I can't think of a single member who has taken an upgrade in training that has been expelled. Can think of plenty who have gone TC to TCC and TCC to STC. But I'm just a troll, what would I know.
So every AOA member who has upgraded in training in the last 2 and a bit years is out of the AOA? What about all the guys in Hong Kong who took Command upgrades while guys on bases turned them down to stay true to CC. How's that fair.
Pick and choose, it appears.


I'm not sure how delaying command on the base is the same as delaying command in Hong Kong.... lots of people were doing that anyway, seems silly to then say it was for "staying true to" contract compliance.

[Hugo Peroni the IV]

Nobody on a base deferred their command to stay true to CC. It was to stay true to lifestyle and their children's upbringing! Anyone who claims different is full of BS.

[Hugo Peroni the IV]

Quite simple really, fly with the based guys, talk to them. Those with families happily settled are generally staying on the base, those whose kids have grown up, several are coming back to Hong Kong for their command. Not a word about contract compliance from anyone of them in their thinking process.



theirYep Hugo and you know this how? And no one turned down the 330 course to stay on the 777 because the type change had them worried, it was all for lifestyle.

[Oasis]

I concur. Lifestyle is the main reason.