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Tony the Tiler
21st Mar 2017, 05:08
Everyone outside of the purple circle is in open revolt. As an outsider, I have never heard of so much disdain for a management team. It doesn’t matter who you talk to the story is the same, the criticisms are the same. Jetstar is departing from normal flight, the phugoid gets more out of control day by day. New batshit crazy ideas get rolled out on a weekly basis. The generals duly implement the plan. Communicated appropriately by yammer, Facebook, the weekly crap, a note from Georgie.

This can only end in tears, if a management team is so disconnected, so reviled by the front line, they cannot lead. They are openly laughed at, pet projects and jobs for the golden children open up festering wounds. The old Ansett jobs for the boys has been described as amateur in comparison to the wholesale corruption taking place now.

The results from the previous engagement survey were not released, as the year long polishing effort yielded insufficient improvement. Best to bury it and pretend it never existed. The Nile is managements favourite river (denial).

Anywhoo enjoy the crazy ride while it lasts. The day of reckoning cannot be far off.

framer
21st Mar 2017, 05:28
NZ, or Australia?

A320 Flyer
21st Mar 2017, 05:37
One in the same aren't they.....

BlackPrince77
21st Mar 2017, 05:49
Its all b##shit and propaganda as the real 'frontline' workers know. I don't think anyone takes their job seriously there, how can you? Just show up, tick the boxes, take plenty of fuel, go home, then enjoy life. Wait for the next opportunity to leave/retire. Simple as that, problem for all these hot shots at the top, once they leave JQ or we leave JQ and see them in public, they're nobodies and will be treated as such! :ouch:

Airbus A320321
21st Mar 2017, 06:05
JQ management are only interested in working us into early graves in order to improve their bonuses. I won't be filling out their BS engagement survey. The only feedback they need is fatigue OSCARs. Can't believe they're still rostering back to back back of the clocks.

coaldemon
21st Mar 2017, 08:52
I'm afraid you may have to wait until one of them gets promoted. :)

AerialPerspective
21st Mar 2017, 09:12
I'm not so sure it's just JQ... VA is just as bad... they make a point of appointing people who know nothing... do a survey of people as to who would be the least capable appointee for a position and they will get the job... when someone with talent and experience does walk in the door it's an endless string of belittling, interrupting during meetings, grandstanding, trying to pick a minuscule item and overblow it while ranting and raving about it to the equally useless boss - a combination of sucking up and trying to belittle and marginalise someone who is supposed to be a colleague only to protect yourself from scrutiny and cover up the general populace's total lack of ability, competence or knowledge of the industry they are in... to the point where the well qualified end up gaining the respect of the frontline people but either get engineered out, leave of their own accord in preference to banging their head against the wall any longer or end up being loved by their subordinates and hated by their peers for screaming bull--- at every chance and being the only frontline attuned voice of reason.
Thus, I don't think it's any different in VA. Management, like politics these days, seems to attract the least qualified wank3rs that are capable of BSing their way in... very few that can be respected these days.
I know this from let's just say. someone I know well, went in there, was treated with absolute lack of respect, talked over at meetings, belittled in front of subordinates, backhand ridicule and when that person reacted sometimes (for the most remaining professional) by understandably letting loose with a well targeted and blistering response to the cheers of the front line, that just further entrenched the hatred of the person by the peer level people who just couldn't stand anyone who had graduated kindergarten having any sort of responsibility. Incompetence, blame shifting, in one case a person who should have retired years before doing absolutely nothing but throwing crap at others to cover up their own inactivity - just beyond belief even for the not always well run companies many of us started with back many years ago. Some of the stories absolutely would turn people pale of egregious incompetence rewarded by promotion and yes, even at higher levels, people entrusted with advancing the company negotiate deals that cost it millions more... too much to cover, JQ not at all unique.

Aussie Fo
21st Mar 2017, 09:35
I think your comments could be applied to every airline ATM.

With regard to GS, I think her time in QF management she was well regarded after the debacle that was JG. AC was promoted above his abilities and then promoted again.

I won't say anything bad against the women promoted in QF, but I will say I doubt they were all the best candidate on the day. There has been a desire to promote women and it has been long coming but at the end of the day the best person should get the job.

At the end of the day, almost all management are in there for the right reasons. It's a crap job and they do more hours than any of us would offer for not much more pay.

It should be like the US presidency. 8 years max.. if you haven't delivered some positive change you had your chance. There are lots of people who could and should be given the chance.

The AN ppl at JQ had their chance. Time to move on

neville_nobody
21st Mar 2017, 09:38
Personally I think it is a power game from the top. Promote people in positions below you who then rely on you because they are incompetent or never had the experience/qualifications to get the job on their own merits. They also won't be challenging for your position.

Bonegi1
21st Mar 2017, 09:54
Aerialperspective
You wouldn't be talking about, among others, the human factors manager who was railroaded out by chance ?

Lookleft
21st Mar 2017, 10:11
For what its worth, most of the current flight ops managers in HO are ex-Ansett.:ok:

Orange future
21st Mar 2017, 14:15
"New batshit crazy ideas get rolled out on a weekly basis"

Do tell, some examples?

AerialPerspective
21st Mar 2017, 16:15
Aerialperspective
You wouldn't be talking about, among others, the human factors manager who was railroaded out by chance ?
I wasn't aware of that one, no, I was talking about someone else but there are plenty of examples... it's got to be the worst at the moment. QF actually make a profit and whether it's because of the ingrained process driven operational culture at QF that it continues to act mostly like a 'real' airline along with having the best systems for passenger delivery I don't know but the other mob definitely don't and they definitely don't like people with experience. Some ex AN people there who knew what they were doing also but were always under siege. The most toxic environment I've seen. That is the real reason why VA doesn't make money. Dysfunctional, scared of knowledge and competence, idiots keep remaining because they make those above them look good. Do tell about the HF Mgr though, what was the story???

Roj approved
22nd Mar 2017, 08:38
And today the madness continues!

Check capt appointments revoked��

titan uranus
22nd Mar 2017, 10:30
"New batshit crazy ideas get rolled out on a weekly basis"

Do tell, some examples?

Refer above? 👍

OM4
22nd Mar 2017, 10:36
How do we know this? No emails or FSO's?

OM4
22nd Mar 2017, 10:57
From over the ditch?

Snakecharma
22nd Mar 2017, 21:20
It is an unfortunate sign of the times that managers are judged on the "x factor" popularity ratings.

Now by that I don't mean that a manager should be hated, despised or universally a tool, rather it is a job where the best you can hope for is to be considered fair and consistent.

If everyone loves you then you are probably not making the hard decisions that must be made from time to time in those jobs, if you are universally hated then you are again not doing the job properly as it requires empathy, understanding and compassion.

If a manager does the job properly there will be elements on one side who are utterly pissed off with you, because you have not pandered to their self interest, a big group in the middle who are ambivalent "he/she is ok, they seem fair" and then the other extreme who are apostles - again for probably the wrong reasons.

These jobs are not popularity competitions, or shouldn't be, but the holder of said position should be fair, consistent and balanced - a post match review should determine some decisions favoured the pilots, some favoured the company, some suited neither I.e. They did what was best for as many people as they could.

They should look after their staff, particularly those in need (sick, troubled by personal issues etc), and do so without a big song and dance - the person involved will know you have positioned yourself between them and the people trying to mess with them, but it should be practically invisible to the majority of the troops. There shouldn't be a big "look at me I have done this for blogs" message.

Alas, my view of the world and how managers should fit in it isn't in step with the modern management paradigm. Certainly seems to not be the way of the world in either JQ or VA based on the messages above.

titan uranus
22nd Mar 2017, 22:13
I think the difference you're articulating is respect versus popularity. That's earnt, not demanded. Leadership 101 since the beginning of time, yet lost in recent times.

Lookleft
22nd Mar 2017, 22:54
Other than KD which other senior manager has resigned? BITW kva is back in sydney as one of the FDMs or whatever its called now and probably enjoying a better quality of life.

Things won't change at JQ until all the Flt Ops Managers are on the seniority list and not on contract. In QF you won't find a manager who is not on the seniority list. In JQ it can and will be used against you if you are on a Management contract and you don't toe the line or the CP just doesn't like you.

It would seem that the current JANZ CEO is just as ineffective as the last one in exerting any influence as to how the airline is run. I would have thought that one Deepwater Horizon on a resume would be enough.

Roj approved
23rd Mar 2017, 01:39
Snakecharma,

Don't go bringing your logic, reason and good management practices over here, you know there's no place for that at JQ:=:O

Lookleft,

"One Deepwater horizon on your resume"

gold:ok::ok:

Remember folks, easter's just around the corner, beware the ides of March.:eek:
(Although its in April this year)

Keith Myath
23rd Mar 2017, 02:08
Can’t wait for the Carla and Co Sydney intervention meeting. They’ll be selling tickets to this one. Just one question, does it come before or after the group email?

Snakecharma
23rd Mar 2017, 02:13
ROj, if it makes you feel better the other joint has not got much use for those ideas either from what I can see

Willie Nelson
23rd Mar 2017, 02:42
I love being a garden variety line pilot based away from HO. Apart from rostering and leave issues, life is very good for me.

There may well be something to what everyone here is banging on about but I'll be buggered if I have any idea what it is. Hope the venting session helps though, I really do.

titan uranus
23rd Mar 2017, 03:08
I love being a garden variety line pilot based away from HO. Apart from rostering and leave issues, life is very good for me.

There may well be something to what everyone here is banging on about but I'll be buggered if I have any idea what it is. Hope the venting session helps though, I really do.

Thanks for that Willie, glad you're alright jack!

Ollie Onion
23rd Mar 2017, 03:09
I am with you willie, have a great life at a base away from Melbourne and Sydney, I can hand on heart say I have NO idea what this thread is talking about? Which Check Captains have had the checking revoked and to what end?

High_To_Low
23rd Mar 2017, 03:39
I second Wille and Onion...lifestyle base for me and I have ABSOLUTELY no idea what's going on...

clark y
23rd Mar 2017, 03:56
The deck chairs are being rearranged, the ship is rudderless and there is no one at the helm anyway. Oh, and there is an iceberg approaching. Did I miss anything?

The rot in head office affects everyone, even those in lifestyle bases. It may not be immediately visible but it will be.

High_To_Low
23rd Mar 2017, 04:00
Time to jump ship if you have the option???

OM4
23rd Mar 2017, 04:09
Time to jump ship if you have the option???

If they let you leave 😏

Wasi Wasamadroota
23rd Mar 2017, 05:01
I am with you willie, have a great life at a base away from Melbourne and Sydney, I can hand on heart say I have NO idea what this thread is talking about? Which Check Captains have had the checking revoked and to what end?

The three B787 check pilot positions that were advertised, and then appointed. I think only 787 pilots were notified of the results. So the story goes, after the positions were allocated, the heinously rude and galactically inept "protected species" intervened as her selected protege's were not on the list.

The three positions have now been withdrawn.

High_To_Low
23rd Mar 2017, 05:01
Still waiting to hear from Nam OM4? Don't think you're alone - a mate in BN is in the same boat

OM4
23rd Mar 2017, 06:55
Still waiting to hear from Nam OM4? Don't think you're alone - a mate in BN is in the same boat

Yeah still waiting ...

Wear the Foxhat
23rd Mar 2017, 07:41
I love being a garden variety line pilot based away from HO. Apart from rostering and leave issues, life is very good for me.


Arrive at the blu emu 45 before sign on (still dark). Download plans while waiting. #3 busses turn up together doh. Review plans, [email protected]$#, aircraft swap mid duty, no APU. Review all the BS A/C status, rafts, TCAS version, engine model etc.

Read reams of irrelevant notams looking for the needle in the haystack, the one that might be important. Laugh at irrelevant FSO’s, bio hazard kits, really. Get to A/C. No tech log as engineering are under the same pressure as us. Get 4 different zone reports, 7 interruptions from groundstaff, refueller, leading hand, engineering, cabin manager, groundstaff and cabin manager.

Discover error on ULA, get leading hand back, pax count doesn’t add up, recount, still no good. New COBT required now with delay. Discovered missing pax with bag. Offload bag, head count now good. Need leading hand back to cockpit to tell that locks are engaged. Groundstaff remind us that COBT is XX, thanks for that, really needed another interruption.

Yay, loadsheet complete and performance data calculated. Do best not to swear when asked what the reason for delay is. Push back and start. Taxi out, S^&#, runway change, new performance calcs, new SID, box setup, check that F^[email protected] flap setting. Briefing, chart blah blah blah, OCP, THREATS???? Your kidding aren’t you. Checklist from QRH for changes after start required. Joke about Just Culture, just don’t [email protected]$& up!!!

Finally get airborne, amended wx for destination, start fuel calcs for next sector, wx diversions, slow down, speed up, hold, cx hold, vector. Eat apple and muesli bar for breakfast while trying to talk on radio. Wipe up spillage from mic.

Arrive at destination, no marshaller, call groundstaff, on their way, ATC getting crapped off as you block apron. Get to bay, wait 5 minutes for stairs. Disembark. Change A/C to one without APU.

Rinse wash repeat x 4.

Finished. Wait for blu emu, wonder why so hungry, then remember there are no meal breaks and you only brought b’fast, no time to get lunch during day. Salmonella sandwich from the cart? No thanks. Home at 6 to mildly annoyed family as you have missed another important date because ‘ROF removed due coverage’. Collapse on couch, try to listen to wife, but really just want peace and quiet, bed by 9. Up again at 3:15 for day 2 of the pattern. 2 earlies, 1 arvo then BOC. 5 days on, 2 off. Cant get leave, cant get days off. Don’t get me started on the +9hr flight time BOC.

Seriously, how long can this last?

framer
23rd Mar 2017, 19:28
Not long by the sound of it.
What is the BOC with more than 9hrs stick time? Surely that must be rostered with three crew?

Daylight Robbery
23rd Mar 2017, 20:01
Nup
9 1/2 flight time 12 hour duty under the CAO exemption that was only ever meant to get schedules up and running after the pilots dispute of over 25 years ago

Blitzkrieger
23rd Mar 2017, 20:15
Arrive at the blu emu 45 before sign on (still dark). Download plans while waiting. #3 busses turn up together doh. Review plans, [email protected]$#, aircraft swap mid duty, no APU. Review all the BS A/C status, rafts, TCAS version, engine model etc.

Read reams of irrelevant notams looking for the needle in the haystack, the one that might be important. Laugh at irrelevant FSO’s, bio hazard kits, really. Get to A/C. No tech log as engineering are under the same pressure as us. Get 4 different zone reports, 7 interruptions from groundstaff, refueller, leading hand, engineering, cabin manager, groundstaff and cabin manager.

Discover error on ULA, get leading hand back, pax count doesn’t add up, recount, still no good. New COBT required now with delay. Discovered missing pax with bag. Offload bag, head count now good. Need leading hand back to cockpit to tell that locks are engaged. Groundstaff remind us that COBT is XX, thanks for that, really needed another interruption.

Yay, loadsheet complete and performance data calculated. Do best not to swear when asked what the reason for delay is. Push back and start. Taxi out, S^&#, runway change, new performance calcs, new SID, box setup, check that F^[email protected] flap setting. Briefing, chart blah blah blah, OCP, THREATS???? Your kidding aren’t you. Checklist from QRH for changes after start required. Joke about Just Culture, just don’t [email protected]$& up!!!

Finally get airborne, amended wx for destination, start fuel calcs for next sector, wx diversions, slow down, speed up, hold, cx hold, vector. Eat apple and muesli bar for breakfast while trying to talk on radio. Wipe up spillage from mic.

Arrive at destination, no marshaller, call groundstaff, on their way, ATC getting crapped off as you block apron. Get to bay, wait 5 minutes for stairs. Disembark. Change A/C to one without APU.

Rinse wash repeat x 4.

Finished. Wait for blu emu, wonder why so hungry, then remember there are no meal breaks and you only brought b’fast, no time to get lunch during day. Salmonella sandwich from the cart? No thanks. Home at 6 to mildly annoyed family as you have missed another important date because ‘ROF removed due coverage’. Collapse on couch, try to listen to wife, but really just want peace and quiet, bed by 9. Up again at 3:15 for day 2 of the pattern. 2 earlies, 1 arvo then BOC. 5 days on, 2 off. Cant get leave, cant get days off. Don’t get me started on the +9hr flight time BOC.

Seriously, how long can this last?

Mate! I just about threw up in my brekky; you described it perfectly. Seriously, who would work in this industry?

Jet Jockey
23rd Mar 2017, 22:18
Well 94% no vote on the 1st instalment of the last EBA and with a little AIPA interference to secure the 787 for the mothership and a revised offer of $6hr meal allowance taxed instead of crew meals supplied. Then a resounding yes vote with What did you think was going to happen??? The pineapple coming home to roost and now the lube worn off not overly pleasant.
You make your bed you lie in unfortunately. What you failed to mention in your daily account of life at Jetstar is after a few years the wife decides to leave and take kids and house because the Jetstar work life balance just not what she signed up for. Local handyman has more to offer and better lifestyle so she shacks up with him.
The whole outfit should be shut down and with casa reviewing the FRMS An48 don't expect things to get better anytime sooner.
I hear more and more pilots there signing up for the Flexiline option including management pilots.
Good luck. It really is an orange cancer:ugh:

Ollie Onion
23rd Mar 2017, 22:20
I don't get it, if you are so unhappy why don't you do everyone a favour and go elsewhere?

titan uranus
23rd Mar 2017, 22:32
I don't get it, if you are so unhappy why don't you do everyone a favour and go elsewhere?

MOU perhaps? Here for a command then back to one's safety net...?
Easy cheap words Ollie

waren9
23rd Mar 2017, 22:44
crickey titan that bought back some memories :ok: :(

Y0SSARIAN
23rd Mar 2017, 23:11
Foxhat is spot on with his assessment of life on the A320/321 based out of Sydney. In the long run it is unworkable. There are several factors that cause this- the horrific car parking arrangement, the mostly 4 sector days due to Sydney's geography in the network, the cost of living making flexi-line unviable unless you are independently wealthy, and so on. The truth is that most of these problems are far worse in Sydney (and to a lesser extent Melbourne) than the other bases.

If you are on the 320/321 and can get out of SYD/MEL it's a different beast altogether. Ditto the 787 in any base (provided you don't commute). I would not recommend SYD NB to anyone in the long run who can not afford to go flexi-line.

Regarding CAO 48.1/ FRMS, the majority of the NB duties conducted out of SYD will probably still be legal, with the exception of maybe some 4 sector 0500 sign-ons and the trans-con BoC's. By the way the longest BoC done on the JQ NB fleet is CNS-PER-CNS. Sign on as late as 2000 and sign off 0715. 9:20 stick time (with the aircraft flying at a high cost index to plan within the 9:30 FDD limit!). It is a disgrace, and despite a huge number of fatigue reports submitted by pilots each month regarding trans-con BOC, management denial of the fatigue problem, combined with weakness and inaction on behalf of the regulator allow these operations to continue.

Back to GS- she made her bed when she took a sweet-heart endorsement on the 787, and never made an attempt to understand the Narrow Body operation, which makes up most of JQ's flying. She does not understand what most Jetstar line pilots have to deal with, and even if she did, it would be beneath her. "You're down in the weeds- I'm big picture!" - she was reported to have said to a pilot raising a concern about their job. Tells you everything really.

Willie Nelson
23rd Mar 2017, 23:52
Wear the Foxhat:

A lot of your concerns I sympathise with. The company indeed does do little to mitigate the effects of poor rostering. Lack of ground staff is a common concern and frustration that we all experience.

Many of your concerns however would not be alleviated by going elsewhere though, at least that's my view, better to try to work within the system and report some of the things that really are within the company's control.

Runway changes and checking flap settings are issues around flight safety that have squat diddly to do with any level of management other than their capacity to ensure safe procedures are in place to mitigate the risk, which I believe is now done quite well. As far as I understand this would not improve if you were to go over the road but I'm happy to be corrected.

I have had a pretty positive experience with 'Just culture' but I cannot speak for others, this would indeed always be a very subjective thing of course.

The job is indeed stressful at times and will always be so, its not all the fault of your employer though. There are plenty of less stressful jobs around and it gets to us all at times but I think things have improved a lot since I started and I therefore try to look on the positive side of things.

As for the 3 check 787 appointments, at least I know what everyone is complaining about now, but that's secret squirrel wide body stuff, I'd always be the last to know. Does sound a bit dodgy.

GA Driver
24th Mar 2017, 00:04
Does submitting a fatigue Oscar come back with the same:
"Thank you for submitting an OSCAR in relation to fatigue. Your OSCAR now constitutes data which is used as part of our FRMS data pack for trending and risk analysis of fatigue events within JANZ operations?"

Last few I did (a little while ago now) this was all I ever got back. Clearly taking fatigue levels seriously.....

Y0SSARIAN
24th Mar 2017, 00:58
Does submitting a fatigue Oscar come back with the same:
"Thank you for submitting an OSCAR in relation to fatigue. Your OSCAR now constitutes data which is used as part of our FRMS data pack for trending and risk analysis of fatigue events within JANZ operations?"

Last few I did (a little while ago now) this was all I ever got back. Clearly taking fatigue levels seriously.....

Yes GA driver, they all seem to come back like that these days. Of course Jetstar knows about the fatigue problem that exists in its operation. It is also obvious that the solution to this problem will cost money. Better rosters, overnighting crews in Perth, augmenting long BoC's on the 787 and proper crew rest all cost money.

Will Jetstar spend this money if they are not forced to by CASA? Anyone who has been in this company for more than 5 minutes knows the answer to that one.

What chance do a flight ops management team watching their back for where the next knife will come from have of successfully arguing a case for change to senior management and the Board? Do they even see a problem to begin with?

Will CASA act to reduce the current fatigue risk present in JQ's operations? A little research into the circumstances surrounding the 'resignation' of former CASA DAS Mark Skidmore last year- and the 'extension' of the CAO 48 exemption combined with a 'review' of CAO 48.1 the minute his foot was out the door could provide some insight into the likelihood of that happening in the near future.

IsDon
24th Mar 2017, 01:04
CNS-PER-CNS BOC?

I guess if these are already planned within 10 mins of the limit any delays in PER would mean a cancellation of the service, or a diversion en route should unforeseen circumstances mean busting these limits.

Knowing what PER is like from personal experience, I'd hazard a guess and say a delay of more than 10 mins would happen quite a lot. I guess these diversions/cancellations due to exceeding stick limits happen very often then. If not, why not?

Are guys knowingly breaking the rules? If so I'm sure the company appreciates your efforts, but good luck keeping your licence if CASA gets wind of it.

There is one simple bullet proof answer to all of this.

JUST SAY NO!

You have a legal requirement to refuse to fly if you feel fatigued. Use it!

The only reason you're rostered the way you are is that you continue to put up with it. Grow a pair.

Tuck Mach
24th Mar 2017, 01:19
Don am in total agreement.

QH SH pilots lose money and so do JQ if they don't extend.With MBT for many patterns, gaining adequate rest is nigh on impossible, the threat is always there that next day pay will be lost... ..How the 'regulator' ever allowed loss of income to be ignored considering the subtlety applied by management was a disgrace.

If one considers the potential PERSONAL liability from operating outside the rules ie CAO 48 in its various guises, any extension place the onus fairly at the pilot's feet.

Just say no. Or simply ask the company for an indemnity in writing from any resulting incident or accident. As happened with me a long time ago, they will never give you one! So without I would never extend.

Roster construction is an issue that needs urgent addressing, which CAO 48.1 was to address, but given the can kick by the 'regulator' it is pretty easy on whose side they fall... :mad:

ratpoison
24th Mar 2017, 01:20
The only reason you're rostered the way you are is that you continue to put up with it. Grow a pair.
Oh, will somebody buy the "don" a drink or two. Summed it all up in just over 20 words. :D:D

Y0SSARIAN
24th Mar 2017, 01:28
CNS-PER-CNS BOC?

I guess if these are already planned within 10 mins of the limit any delays in PER would mean a cancellation of the service, or a diversion en route should unforeseen circumstances mean busting these limits.

Knowing what PER is like from personal experience, I'd hazard a guess and say a delay of more than 10 mins would happen quite a lot. I guess these diversions/cancellations due to exceeding stick limits happen very often then. If not, why not?

Are guys knowingly breaking the rules? If so I'm sure the company appreciates your efforts, but good luck keeping your licence if CASA gets wind of it.

There is one simple bullet proof answer to all of this.

JUST SAY NO!

You have a legal requirement to refuse to fly if you feel fatigued. Use it!

The only reason you're rostered the way you are is that you continue to put up with it. Grow a pair.


IsDon, you are 50% correct. If 90% of pilots 'grew a pair' and called fatigued instead of operating shifts they know to be fatiguing then our problems here would be resolved very quickly indeed.

That is not going to happen. In my experience only 5-10% of a given population will have the guts to stand up and do something about a problem themselves. The main reasons that pilots often won't call fatigued for these flights are:

a) they fear being labeled a 'trouble maker' thus affecting their career
b) they are tight-arses and don't want to lose the overtime

This is why you are also 50% wrong. It is incumbent upon the regulator to ensure that pilots cannot be rostered to fly shifts that are known to be fatiguing. The regulator has tried to palm this responsibility off to the operator, however we can all see how deeply conflicted that arrangement is.

Both the regulator and the operator have an intimate understanding of fatigue issues in the industry. God forbid, if there is a fatigue-related accident in the Australian airline industry due to their inaction they will both have blood on their hands.

IsDon
24th Mar 2017, 01:44
That is not going to happen. In my experience only 5-10% of a given population will have the guts to stand up and do something about a problem themselves. The main reasons that pilots often won't call fatigued for these flights are:

a) they fear being labeled a 'trouble maker' thus affecting their career
b) they are tight-arses and don't want to lose the overtime

This is why you are also 50% wrong.

Then 90-95% of your crew are gutless whimps.

I'm not 50% correct on that.

While the regulator and the company are equally duplicitous in your scandalous crewing, take a stab at who'll wear 100% of the blame should an incident happen. CASA will say the pilots were undoubtedly fatigued, although they failed to stand them selves down. JQ will say we have a robust culture of fatigue management in place, or some other obfuscating alternative to shoot the blame right to the pilots involved. Summarily dismissed under Just Culture.

You guys are playing Russian Roullete with your careers and your passengers lives.

Y0SSARIAN
24th Mar 2017, 02:03
Then 90-95% of your crew are gutless whimps.

I'm not 50% correct on that.

While the regulator and the company are equally duplicitous in your scandalous crewing, take a stab at who'll wear 100% of the blame should an incident happen. CASA will say the pilots were undoubtedly fatigued, although they failed to stand them selves down. JQ will say we have a robust culture of fatigue management in place, or some other obfuscating alternative to shoot the blame right to the pilots involved. Summarily dismissed under Just Culture.

You guys are playing Russian Roullete with your careers and your passengers lives.

No you are not 50% wrong about that, although calling them 'gutless whimps' might not be the best way to go as you will find the same 90-95% in any company under similar circumstances. It's called human nature, and the minority who have the balls to stand up know this better than anyone!

IsDon
24th Mar 2017, 02:08
No you are not 50% wrong about that, although calling them 'gutless whimps' might not be the best way to go as you will find the same 90-95% in any company under similar circumstances. It's called human nature, and the minority who have the balls to stand up know this better than anyone!

Well then you need to work on the 90-95% that are clearly causing this problem.

neville_nobody
24th Mar 2017, 02:53
The assumption that isDon is making is that the system works as it should. In that you can make a big call and cancel a flight and the union, company procedures, and the regulator etc will back you up. Companies and the regulator are interested in nothing else other than covering their arse. Don't forget too the whole fatigue issue was dealt with last time by the imfamous 'toughen up princesses' response.

It is up to the Regulator to regulate, and from what I have seen they do not have the guts to take it on.
The other problem with fatigue issues is that companies can wheel out the whole 'illegal industrial action' routine. Given that it is such a fickled issue its very difficult to deal with as an individual

IsDon
24th Mar 2017, 02:58
The assumption that isDon is making is that the system works as it should. In that you can make a big call and cancel a flight and the union, company procedures, and the regulator etc will back you up. Companies and the regulator are interested in nothing else other than covering their arse. Don't forget too the whole fatigue issue was dealt with last time by the imfamous 'toughen up princesses' response.

It is up to the Regulator to regulate, and from what I have seen they do not have the guts to take it on.

Well Nev, if you can't beat em, join em.

If the regulator and the company are all about arse covering then better get with the program and do some of that as well, lest you be the scapegoat in a mishap.

The only way to do that is to say no.

I know GS well from the 767. Not a fan. What I do know for absolute certainty is that she has absolutely no tendency to stick her neck out if she might wear any risk, legally or otherwise.

If a hypothetical pilot were to call fatigued and cancel a service as a result, do you really think she would put her head in a regulatory noose by taking punitive action against that pilot? Not a chance. If she knew what's good for her she'd support said pilot to the hilt. She really has no choice.

If you make an honest call on fatigue you are legally, morally and ethically bullet proof. To fly fatigued you're on your own.

Lookleft
24th Mar 2017, 03:09
The other issue with calling fatigued is that you can't call in an anticipation of fatigue. I am at a level I would call fatigued at the time I am in the flight deck on the return leg. I submit OSCARS stating that every time I do a BOC. When I sign on for the duty I am FFD. When I take controlled rest on the flight deck I have mitigated the effects of fatigue. That the rosters should not be planned in the first place is the responsibility of the company and the regulator. To simply state that Jetstar pilots should "grow a pair" is very easy for IsDon to state from the flight deck of a widebody working for a legacy carrier. It also ignores the industrial system in which we work where concerted action to call in fatigue and cancel flights on a regular basis could be interpreted as unprotected industrial action. Collectively Jetstar pilots have rejected the Jetstar Group contract, voted down a pathetic EBA and through the system of OSCARs seen the worst BOC removed. Fatiguing rosters are not just a problem in Jetstar, but if other threads on Pprune are looked at, its a world wide problem so I suppose the world wide pilot community should "grow a pair".:ugh:

Y0SSARIAN
24th Mar 2017, 03:18
The other issue with calling fatigued is that you can't call in an anticipation of fatigue:

This is not correct. If you have not had enough sleep to complete the rostered duty safely you are not only able to but are required to notifiy the company that you are unfit for duty due to fatigue. What you have been told is an old management chestnut designed to discourage you calling fatigued.

Having said that I agree with the rest of your post.

Lookleft
24th Mar 2017, 04:23
I absolutely agree with you, if you are fatigued at the start of the duty then you are UFD for the whole duty. What I am saying is that you can't call in fatigued for the way you will feel at the back end of the duty. If you haven't been able to get adequate rest prior to a duty (sick family members, or roadworks outside your house) then you should call in UFD.

Wear the Foxhat
24th Mar 2017, 04:51
Wear the Foxhat:

Runway changes and checking flap settings are issues around flight safety that have squat diddly to do with any level of management other than their capacity to ensure safe procedures are in place to mitigate the risk, which I believe is now done quite well...

The job is indeed stressful at times and will always be so, its not all the fault of your employer though. There are plenty of less stressful jobs around and it gets to us all at times but I think things have improved a lot since I started and I therefore try to look on the positive side of things.



I know many of the things we do are expected as professional pilots, for example rebrief and flap / data setting check after rwy change. Ive got no beef with that or similar. What I was highlighting is the job is busy enough as professional pilots, without all the decisions management have made to load us up even more. Why do I need the leading hand to attend the cockpit to tell me he has done his job, why can’t this airline after 18 months work out how many people are onboard. Why do I need multiple different zone reports, one correct one will be fine. How hard is it to have marshallers available, stairs on arrival, engineering checks complete when I get to the aircraft for the first flight of the day.

Why am I inundated with rubbish FSO’s, notams, intap’s.It looks like an arse covering exercise from people who have no care for the people who work at the front line.

I get that Syd is 4 sector central, but why make turnaround times unachievable, factor in time for A/C swaps, MEL O procedures. Yes, I choose to live here, is it practical if all Syd crew take the advice of some posters on her and move base or leave? Does that solve anything? How about practical fixes.

If management were serious, they would address the multitude of rostering issues, a preferential bidding system, open time, access to annual leave, access to flexi line without making you wait 12 months. They could recognise that long duty periods with a car park out the back of bourke is counterproductive. The rostering rules we work under weren’t designed with 45 minute commute from car park to terminal, nor 1hr plus commute from home to car park in mind. Factoring in those realities should change maximum duty periods.

To do any of that, they would have to be engaged. And I don’t mean more yammer, FB or notes from Georgina. I mean face to face, stand infront of the troops and tell us what you are doing. Multiple meetings in all the bases so pilots can get heard.

Instead we have an absent Group CEO, Invisible JANZ CEO, Chief pilot who’s never taken any interest in what the NB pilots life is like. Disengagement to the MAX.

No management bulldust, no bluesky this, no aspirational that, no endeavour to do this, project to do that, no looking into this. I want changes, I want recognition that the current work practices are unsustainable and an iron clad commitment to change it NOW. Not in 6 months, not ‘we are recruiting pilots to fix the problem’, we’ll have more pilot in 6 months. Because you wont, pilots are leaving quicker than recruitment can keep up.

No more ‘diversity’, no more ‘celebrating our stars’, no more propaganda in the weekly wrap. I don’t care. ‘We’ve noticed you haven’t logged into Bravo’ No $#@& Sherlock, I don’t care. Instead we get management pilots awarding eachother bravo awards – yes Flipper that’s YOU. So disconnected from the front line it aint funny.

RUN THE AIRLINE. FIX THE ROSTER, LEAVE, FATIGUE, ROSTER SWAPS, RDO’s.

Chook raffles are run better than this joint.

framer
24th Mar 2017, 11:02
Fatiguing rosters are not just a problem in Jetstar, but if other threads on PPRuNe are looked at, its a world wide problem so I suppose the world wide pilot community should "grow a pair".
After 23 years in the industry, mostly in NZ and Australia, I think ' the world wide pilot community growing a pair' is potentially on the cards.
I think that 99.9% of the folk regulating and running the industry literally don't understand that current practices are shortening the lives of modern day Airline pilots and the pilots can feel it and their wives / husbands are sick of them being grumpy sick [email protected]
There are some Airlines like Air NZ and Qantas where pilots can have a nice lifestyle but the majority of Airline pilots are knackered.
The FlyDubai crash could happen in this part of the world. After hearing about the CNS-PER return BOC I'm surprised it hasn't already. We are running on luck. A confusing instrumentation failure at the end of one of these duties could likely end badly.
I can see a time not too far away where the unions are pressured by their members to join together and put an end to the rostering practices regardless of what the regulator says.
Even if we just adopted the national truck drivers legislation around fatigue many of these shifts would disappear.
The other issue is driving home after the shift. I know of cabin crew who have lost their lives. We have to be mindful of that too.

Flava Saver
24th Mar 2017, 11:46
Wear the Foxhat,

You have hit the nail on the head so well.

Plenty of lip service, but nothing changes except the 787 management it seems. The 320 fleet is the backbone, yep BS rostering, leave slots both AL/LSL not available and the list goes on and on.

People on the sidelines can judge/comment we need to grow a pair, but I do recall an event several years ago in September that apparently was remembered by plenty.

As the saying goes if you kick the nicest dog enough times, it will bite. :=

angryrat
24th Mar 2017, 14:02
To simply state that Jetstar pilots should "grow a pair" is very easy for IsDon to state from the flight deck of a widebody working for a legacy carrier

Sorry, but that's just another weak ass and typical of this day and age excuse. How the f*(k do you think legacy carriers got there T&C's? By doing nothing? Do you think we have had no major blow ups with our management? Grow up and get a pair or stop your whining. We have all been through this at the legacy carrier.

Now we have to put up with the indignity of listening to 10 year Captains whining about what the legacy guys refused to do, whilst having their career undercut.

Here's a tip, stop undercutting us, stop whinging about legacys, stop angling for red tail flying and bring up your own conditions by having some kahunas.

P.S. What I wrote doesn't apply to those who had the kahunas to leave their office/training job because they had some moral fibre.

titan uranus
24th Mar 2017, 15:38
I know many of the things we do are expected as professional pilots, for example rebrief and flap / data setting check after rwy change. Ive got no beef with that or similar. What I was highlighting is the job is busy enough as professional pilots, without all the decisions management have made to load us up even more. Why do I need the leading hand to attend the cockpit to tell me he has done his job, why can’t this airline after 18 months work out how many people are onboard. Why do I need multiple different zone reports, one correct one will be fine. How hard is it to have marshallers available, stairs on arrival, engineering checks complete when I get to the aircraft for the first flight of the day.

Why am I inundated with rubbish FSO’s, notams, intap’s.It looks like an arse covering exercise from people who have no care for the people who work at the front line.

I get that Syd is 4 sector central, but why make turnaround times unachievable, factor in time for A/C swaps, MEL O procedures. Yes, I choose to live here, is it practical if all Syd crew take the advice of some posters on her and move base or leave? Does that solve anything? How about practical fixes.

If management were serious, they would address the multitude of rostering issues, a preferential bidding system, open time, access to annual leave, access to flexi line without making you wait 12 months. They could recognise that long duty periods with a car park out the back of bourke is counterproductive. The rostering rules we work under weren’t designed with 45 minute commute from car park to terminal, nor 1hr plus commute from home to car park in mind. Factoring in those realities should change maximum duty periods.

To do any of that, they would have to be engaged. And I don’t mean more yammer, FB or notes from Georgina. I mean face to face, stand infront of the troops and tell us what you are doing. Multiple meetings in all the bases so pilots can get heard.

Instead we have an absent Group CEO, Invisible JANZ CEO, Chief pilot who’s never taken any interest in what the NB pilots life is like. Disengagement to the MAX.

No management bulldust, no bluesky this, no aspirational that, no endeavour to do this, project to do that, no looking into this. I want changes, I want recognition that the current work practices are unsustainable and an iron clad commitment to change it NOW. Not in 6 months, not ‘we are recruiting pilots to fix the problem’, we’ll have more pilot in 6 months. Because you wont, pilots are leaving quicker than recruitment can keep up.

No more ‘diversity’, no more ‘celebrating our stars’, no more propaganda in the weekly wrap. I don’t care. ‘We’ve noticed you haven’t logged into Bravo’ No $#@& Sherlock, I don’t care. Instead we get management pilots awarding eachother bravo awards – yes D Mc that’s YOU. So disconnected from the front line it aint funny.

RUN THE AIRLINE. FIX THE ROSTER, LEAVE, FATIGUE, ROSTER SWAPS, RDO’s.

Chook raffles are run better than this joint.

Wear the Fox Hat for President

Keg
24th Mar 2017, 19:20
I can list a half dozen pilots in the legacy carrier who have pulled the pin either before or during a tour of duty due fatigue within the last six months. I can probaly list a few more who have refused to extend tours of duty. Action taken against them? Nil.

Willie Nelson
24th Mar 2017, 21:44
Keg and others,

I can think of plenty of occasions when I and others both Captains and FO's have called fatigued without any reprurcssions either. As was pointed out earlier GS is not in a position to place sanctions on those that do.

But I am now going to respectfully leave this discussion because if it's just going to be a JQ versus QF pie fight:

A) I'm unqualified to engage the debate objectively because I've not seen both airlines from within.

B) From here on in I think it's just going to be character assassination and it serves nobody any purpose. I have a good life and I'm heading back to it.

Lookleft
25th Mar 2017, 01:34
Keg with all due respect if you are referring to widebody ops then its apples and oranges with regards to J* NB operations. I have flown under the exemption with two different airlines, a legacy and LCC. Operating to the Exemption under the legacy carrier had zero impact on time away from work. The rostering at J* is legal, but as someone else pointed out, it disregards a lot of assumptions that were originally considered common sense. Assumptions such as minimum rest times for an overnight should be different for those at home base. There was no specific requirement for sign-on and sign-off to not be in the same calendar day as it would be assumed that was not going to be rostered.

Fortunately the current exemption has restrictions on late night operations which actually works in the pilot's favour.

Wear the Foxhat has summed up the situation nicely.

Keg
25th Mar 2017, 01:44
Sure. I agree with both sentiments. I certainly didn't intend for this to become a QF v jQ comparison. Simply wanted to hilgjith that if you're tired, you can say 'no'. Perhaps the lesson for me is to not post after an all nighter. :O :ok:

Lookleft
25th Mar 2017, 02:40
All good Keg. Maybe posting after a BOC could be a good indicator of fatigue levels.