Australians with questions for US Pilots and ATC's about your airpsace

[Achilles]

In Australia, our airspace is to be 'reformed' soon using the North American Airspace system as a model. Problem is, we don't have anywhere near the amount of Radar, navaids and airports or other aviation infrastructure that the US does. This raises some concerns and questions for pilots and ATC's here. I am hoping that Dunnunda members will post questions here, directly to you guys.

Thanks.

['%MAC']

All that is holy and sanctified, forbid such a foolish endeavour. There must be a better system out there.

[karrank]

Here's a few to start with that have cropped up in my mullings over your low-level airspace. Unlike the fanatic pushing this plan, I can't afford to come over there and look for myself... Please answer any or all of them??

Does the USA have any large areas where a pressurised twin would be out of communication for significant portions of the flight? How do you manage clearances & separation involving step-descents, DME standards or establishing definite passing outside VHF (and radar) coverage?

How do you establish definite passing in IMC between aircraft when one is not RNAV equipped and there is no radar or navaid coverage?

The model being contemplated by the above-mentioned fanatic includes Class E airspace between 4000 and 14,500 ft over all our capital cities, (the busiest would be a Class C airport over there). Is this still the model in place over there after 9-11?

Do you have a huge increase in workload when the weather is crappy?

Do you ever pass traffic in Class G or is separation applied regardless? Would you ever establish that a flight is clear of controlled airspace to avoid separating it?

Are you senior managers all back-stabbing @ss-holes like ours?

[FWA NATCA]

Karrank,

First of all I would like to encourage you to visit the National Air Traffic Controllers Web Site Public BBS at http://www.natca.org/PublicBBS.asp and post your specific questions there.

On the NATCA Public BBS your questions will be answered by some of our Regional NATCA Safety Reps, NATCA controllers (enroute and terminal), and by our esteemd NATCA President.

To answer a few of your questions:

>Do you have a huge increase in workload when the weather is crappy?<

Who's workload doesn't increase because of thunderstorms, or low visibility and ceilings.

>Do you ever pass traffic in Class G or is separation applied regardless?<

We issue traffic and apply separation in accordance with the 7110.65. If I'm providing radar service to a VFR yes I provide seperation and issue traffic, and I always do for an IFR acft.

>Would you ever establish that a flight is clear of controlled airspace to avoid separating it? <

Yes, this would only occur to a VFR aircraft that was receiving VFR flight following. Radar service would be terminated and we would no longer provide separation services or provide traffic advisories.

>Are you senior managers all back-stabbing @ss-holes like ours?<

Thankfully, no, we still have some back stabbing managers, but their numbers are few and still on the decline.

I'm proud to say that we have some managers (locally, regionally, and nationally) who work hard with NATCA to make our job as controllers better, and work with NATCA to improve the system.

Mike

[Pitts S2B]

US airspace is in a nutshell

Class A - Above all, fl180-fl600 IFR only, DME required above FL240

Class B - Busy and Busted, large airport terminal areas, it is busy and you will get busted if you fly in it without a clearance.

Class C - Crowded, surrounds airports that don't fit in the Busy category you need to be talking to someone to fly in it but a clearance is not required (be warned that many US class C airports have more annual movements than London Heathrow)

Class D - Don't fly here unless you are talking to the tower. Surrounds airports that don't get into the crowded category (it can include some very busy places, Long Beach for example)

Class E - Everywhere, that is almost everywhere in the US that is not one of the other classes, you do not need to talk to anyone if you do not want to but if you feel inclined someone will be there to listen and respond. Class E is widespread especially in the lower 48 states. E airspace can go all the way to the ground around non towered fields that have instrument approaches.

Class F does not exist in the USA

Class G - Uncontrolled, only found in places like Alaska and the Southwestern deserts, prairies, and small pockets here and there(below 700 or 1200ft above ground level), usually in remote and unpopulated areas. No services available and no one to talk to.
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In the continental United States you will have to look long and hard to find a place that Radar service is not more than a climb away.

There are some anomalies to the system like the airspace that surrounds Palm Springs. I can never figure out exactly what a TRSA is but I fly it like Class C and it works just fine, it stands for Terminal radar service area.

['%MAC']

Class G is constrained by other airspace, but exempting that is limited by the continental control area which starts at 14,500. Why 14.5? Mt Whitney.

Out west the airspace is mostly G (west of the Mississippi).

[Spodman]

Interesting answers thank-you. I actually have posted on the NATCA BBS, with no answers yet...

>Who's workload doesn't increase because of thunderstorms, or low visibility and ceilings.

Ours actually, 'coz we don't separate. We have Class G in which we pass traffic to IFR. Bad weather generates more radio traffic & the odd diversion, but non-availability of distance standards & figuring approach clearances and holding doesn't exist for us. How would you feel about sectors used to the above suddenly being required to provide services down to the ground?

I also would like to hear about the nuts-&-bolts of separating in non-radar Class E.

[FWA NATCA]

Spodman,

I'm the sysops for the NATCA Public BBS and I haven't seen any questions about airspace on any of the conference areas.

It's possible that you didn't hit the post button the second time. The first time you hit post lets you review your message and correct spelling errors. The second time that you hit the post button actually post your message.

Mike

[StbdD]

As with any other aviation related topic interpretations vary.

This is a link to the US Airman's Information Manual which has a massive amount of info. Specifically, it discusses Airspace and ATC procedures/regulations and may help answer your questions.

http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/aim/

[weasil]

My two cents worth,

As far as pilots are concerned as Specific Clearance is NOT required for class c airspace. You have to establish 2 way radio communications. The AIM says this is established once the controller has repeated your call sign to you, unless the controller specifically says remain outside class C. This is as opposed to Class B where you have to be issued a Clearance to enter class B.

I think this is the point that was being made in the earlier post.

I began my flight training in AUstralia and so have been watching with interested the heated discussion on the Dunnunda forum with Dick Smith and the pilots of the great south land.

I wonder what is the reason for changing the airspace Dunnunda?

Weasil

[Chimbu chuckles]

What's the reason for changing the airspace dunnunder?

Two reasons actually!

1/. Useless 'public servents' who would not function in an iron lung needing to look busy and productive.

2/. Egomaniacs, like DS, who want to put their stamp on a system that worked perfectly well before they came along and stuffed it up!

The 'excuse' for all the above is User Pays and cost saving...or more accurately GAR, Government Abdication of Responsibilities.

Probably 80 to 90% of Australia resembles your SW Deserts/prairies and yet under Dick Smith's 'leadership' we have seen the destruction of Flight Service Offices (we just don't have them anymore) and the introduction of a system which charges fees for zero service. Probably 5% of Australia has radar coverage below 10000'. As a guess we have probably 1% of your VHF Navaids.

And then there's frequency sharing where everyone from Meekatharra to the Torres Straights (Like San Francisco to Chicago but mostly desert) is on the same frequency.

We have a tiny fraction of your aircraft numbers but still the system will not be allowed to provide even basic services like uncrowded frequencies and traffic seperation between IFR RPT Dash 8/B737 and VFR Charter C206/210 in areas where 30 movements in a day is a big day!

Chuck.

[zerozero]

Sorry for joining the thread late (been outta town).

The description in the original post sounds more like rural Alaska than our deserts or prairies.

We have our problems (poor communications, sparse radar coverage, etc) but things generally work out fine with a little resourcefulness--a quality that I'm sure is as common in the bush of Australia as it is in the Alaskan bush.

I'd gladly answer more questions but I'll have to apologize right now for any delay as I'm leaving town again soon.

By the way, I used to fly Metroliners down the Aleutian chain and out in the Bering Sea so I understand about being IFR and out of radio contact.

Hint: Over-flying aircraft are a big help. They're usually bored as hell and more than willing to help out.:)

[Yankee_Doodle_Floppy_Disk]

For how it works in Godzone go to the CAA website:New Zealand CAA (http://www.caa.govt.nz/)

Click on Airspace and look up rule part 71. Of course the practicalities of communications and RADAR coverage are slightly different than in the West Island. :D

[Panama Jack]

I don't understand what the problem is. Is the beef about going to the alphabet soup classification? Maybe a closer examination of Canada's airspace system will offer better comparison on how it works for large undeveloped geographical areas.

[Spodman]

No, we have alphabet soup here. Like you took your old airspace and picked ICAO letters to describe it, so did we. So everything looks the same, but is completely different. We are now actually commencing a process of changing what we do, and how we do it, but I (for one) are not convinced those driving the changes understand all the issues.

Either do I.

Question 1. I was reading in "Flight" the FAA is recomending GA aircraft encountering GPS interference climb to 5,000ft, thus putting themselves within range of at least one VOR, and they will retain enuf VOR in the future to provide this back-up to GPS. Does this really give an indication of the VOR coverage in the US or am I being misled?

Question 2. This reference in AIH (Chapter 4. IFR Section 1. NAVAID Use Limitations (http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp4/atc0401.html#4-1-1) ) seems to indicate that I can't clear a AC50 between, say, YMIA (VOR) and YHSM (Class H RBN 146NM away & outside radar coverage) unless the flight is RNAV equipped. Is this the case? Our rules only require a positive fix every 2 hours, which we separate with by assuming a maximum cross track tolerance of 30nm. It would also be entirely considered a pilot problem and ignored as a factor in clearance issue. Is this sort of restriction actually imposed?