LEVEL: New Low Cost long haul from IAG Group

[seasexsun]

IAG is making Norwegian shake hard with this big announcement today
First base BCN, more european bases to come. Vueling will be the natural feeder, while Norwegian is strugling to make a crappy deal with its own competitor Ryanair to feed its B787 fleet.
flylevel.com

[samca]

FO s Norwegian long haul earn doble than a new FO in Level. They add two levels to the salary table, so new joiners entry in level 11 and their salary in the best of the case will be 3000 Euros flying long haul. While nobody touch BA.
That's IBERIA today a big sh...

[samca]

Last Assestment of IBE they don't requested flying hours so you can imagine cadets crossing the Atlantic and landing in the main airports of USA.

My God!

[seasexsun]

Well Iberia pilots get 2 "pagas extras" per year and have far more social benefits than Norwegian slaves hired by OSM :mad: Moreover,iberia pilots transfering onto long haul fleet must have a full ATPL licence, so you wont see any cadets at all on the widebody fleet.
Anyway, I understand that Iberia pilots and cabin crew will launch this new airline for 12 months, but then there will be a proper AOC and proper staff and crews.

[Luibar]

So, Level is a brand operated by Iberia. Will they have an AOC in the near future and recruit their own flight crews?

[macdo]

so the race to the bottom continues.......

question is, who's gonna go under first?

[captplaystation]

Why am I so reminded of what we used to apply to Ryan/Easy (back in 2002) "same :mad: different colour" . . . . kinda sums it up really. . . . . . .

[Sidestick_n_Rudder]

The funny thing is that both RYR and EZY have become a sort of "legacy LCC's" offering pretty decent conditions (pay, rosters, training ) in comparison to what is now offered currently by new LCC's... oh, the irony!

[R T Jones]

If Iberia crews are flying these jets, will that be on Iberia contracts? Has anyone heard of what the terms and conditions for Level will be? Will they just be using agencies? I've no doubt the conditions will be market leading...

[samca]

Well Iberia pilots get 2 "pagas extras" per year and have far more social benefits than Norwegian slaves hired by OSM :mad: Moreover,iberia pilots transfering onto long haul fleet must have a full ATPL licence, so you wont see any cadets at all on the widebody fleet.
Anyway, I understand that Iberia pilots and cabin crew will launch this new airline for 12 months, but then there will be a proper AOC and proper staff and crews.

The social benefits you get in IBE are after 3 years joining the company. And for getting the salary that had a normal FO before the new salary table was approved the new joiners have to stay 8 years in the company. The low cost company budget LEVEL for pilots and cabin crew is very low, so I doubt than a stablish FO flying long haul in IBE going to fly RH seat in Level keeping his salary. Probably they going to be offered LH seat BUT with less salary... you will see

[samca]

If Iberia crews are flying these jets, will that be on Iberia contracts? Has anyone heard of what the terms and conditions for Level will be? Will they just be using agencies? I've no doubt the conditions will be market leading...

T & C are crab. They are recruiting directly through Iberia no agencies. And they are not requesting experience practically in the last Assestment. You join the company in Level 11 of salary 2500 to 3000 Euros for the first 3 years

[healthy normal pew]

Yep in fact they shy away from people with experience and too much life experience, they even look bad upon a guy with a degree if he is " too old "

They want fresh out of school 18 year olds with as fewer hours as posible.


They will put those in the a320s and will start moving senior guys to this one.

[wiggy]

Just to tie in with samca's comment we have been told (elsewhere in IAG) that the flights will operated by mainline Iberia crews for at least the first year (i.e. internal recruitment of some form ) . No idea on how the T&Cs look.

[RexBanner]

I think we do have some idea, Wiggy ;-)

[wiggy]

Ain't that the truth.......................I suspect the slide will continue

[Iver]

T & C are crab. They are recruiting directly through Iberia no agencies. And they are not requesting experience practically in the last Assestment. You join the company in Level 11 of salary 2500 to 3000 Euros for the first 3 years

Wow - that is terrible. For 3 years too? I am surprised the Iberia pilots would agree to this slap to the face if true... Makes NAI sound generous.

[vikdream]

IB recent recruitment process is not for LEVEL or the A330. They are hiring for their short-haul fleet based in MAD. Transition onto the A330 (LEVEL or not) is done by seniority (a lot of people in front of the new joiners) and full ATPL required.

IB crews will be flying LEVEL A330s (possibly even under IB colors initially, as website says operated by IB), under IB terms and conditions with a few exceptions (FTLs is one of them, currently IB long haul pilots have a limit of 85h a month).

IB new joiners join on level 11, which is one of the worst in this industry (no better level if more experience, so same level for cadets or 10 year experience FO). It was agreed not far ago that promotion onto the A330 would mean transitioning to level 9, which is a quite better.

This might only be temporary. I would think future expansion will mean LEVEL crews under LEVEL contracts, possibly a lot worse than IB contracts (possibly similar to IB Express). However, that expansion is still unknown and unclear, as many Spanish people think this is only a temporary operation to kick Norwegian out of BCN. Iberia have done this in the past a few times with long haul operations from BCN (temporary ones) and Clickair, which was created to compete against Vueling, and then they both merged and are now part of the IAG group.

[samca]

Wow - that is terrible. For 3 years too? I am surprised the Iberia pilots would agree to this slap to the face if true... Makes NAI sound generous.

IBE is not what it is was and never it will be

[seasexsun]

Iberia have a low scale salary for new joiners, but still, people who join are many to come from Ryanair, easyJet and Norwegian. Anyway, as it is already officially said by Willie Walsh and by the Iberia CEO, "LEVEL" will eventually be a proper airline and Iberia is just launching it for 12 months. Funny to read people her saying that terms and conditions will be crap, actually nobody knows yet. The expansion plan is to quicly get 30 aircraft and open more bases in Spain and Europe, such as Paris. I guess then the new "frenchblue airlines" will not be very happy to hear that. Same for Norwegian who is just opening a new b787 base in Paris.
IAG a very profitable group, all its airlines make huge benefits, Qatar has invested a lot of money in IAG, the battle will be interesting.
20 years ago nobody believed in Ryanair and easyjet. This industry is now repeating the revolution with low cost long haul.

[samca]

Not agree with you, I don't know any single pilot of Ryanair who want to join in Iberia, at least from the last 3 years...

[seasexsun]

Trust me SAMCA, there are quite a few ex ryanair guys who joined iB last year. This year I coulnt tell you as the selection process is still ongoing.

[vikdream]

Not agree with you, I don't know any single pilot of Ryanair who want to join in Iberia, at least from the last 3 years...

On top of that, I know that at least from one of those airlines nobody (NOBODY) has joined Iberia, even if they had the chance to.

IB is a brilliant deal for somebody wanting a life in MAD and the possibility of long haul, but many will even drop that for other things (especially money).

Anyway this is not a threat about IB... but reality is that recent joiners (post 2015) have been, in the vast majority, people with (very) low experience or joining from Vueling. There are a few from other airlines, of course, but it is far from being the majority of them. My experience is that the vast majority of Senior First Officers in other airlines are not interested in IB level 11, although I have to say IB is probably the best career you can have in Spain... if you want to live on a suitcase.

And of course we know how things work in Spain and in Iberia in particular, so IB is not for everybody. But that's another story.

I hope LEVEL goes forward, but I can anticipate very low contracts and possibly the worst conditions in the industry.

[172_driver]

I hope LEVEL goes forward, but I can anticipate very low contracts and possibly the worst conditions in the industry.


You hope for that?

[vikdream]

I wish LEVEL and their crews the best and a long life, but as I said earlier on, many people in Spain suspect that their intention is different, but everything could happen.

And no, I don't hope they have the worst conditions in the industry (for long-haul) obviously.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

What's thw crack behind the name Level then?
Surely there must be a better name like Tryingtoshaftnorweigen.com

[samca]

L eave
E verybody
V ery
E mpty with a
L oan

Hahahaha

[Direct Bondi]

What's the crack behind the name Level then?
Surely there must be a better name like Tryingtoshaftnorweigen.com
The name Level is pertinent to restoring a ‘level playing field’ in the Open Skies Agreement.

Additionally, Norwegian is highly proficient at “shafting” themselves without help from others, as demonstrated last summer;

“Thousands left stranded over the weekend as Norwegian Air cancels 30 flights”

http://cphpost.dk/news/thousands-left-stranded-over-the-weekend-as-norwegian-air-cancels-30-flights.html

This is a smart move by IAG in establishing a separate low cost airline. If IAG legacy carriers had lowered their fares below Norwegian’s on the same competitive routes, Norwegian may have had an antitrust (US) and/or competition law (EU) claim against IAG. This way they are competing on the same Level.

[Payscale]

Just the name LEVEL is a potential risk to flight safety.... Every climb/descent clearance will contain the brand name. If its also their call sign, god help us.
"Climb flightLEVEL 350"..... "Confirm that was for LEVEL 350 to climb?"

[Sidestick_n_Rudder]

What makes you think their call sign will be the same as their brand name?

[Skindogg]

There's a good idea, call your airline "Direct final approach fix, number one for arrival". Your on time performance will improve significantly;)

[Direct Bondi]

Responding to Level, Norwegian’s paid mouthpiece said the competition is welcome. He may wish to reconsider.

Level ticket prices are two-thirds lower than Norwegian’s:

http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/level-british-airways-sister-airline-transatlantic-flight-fares-prices-norwegian-lower-rivals-a7639771.html

Level will increase its fleet to at least 30 aircraft:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-03-17/british-airways-owner-enters-discount-long-haul-with-level-arm

[WindshearAhead]

SAMCA please first of all learn proper english, it hurts my eyes. And second, you dont know what you are saying at all. Of course people from ryanair, easyjet and norwegian, captains from Vueling or Copa joined Iberia last year... Iberia is not what it was, but its the best you can get.

[7Q Off]

Responding to Level, Norwegian’s paid mouthpiece said the competition is welcome. He may wish to reconsider.

Level ticket prices are two-thirds lower than Norwegian’s:

Level: British Airways' new sister airline is offering transatlantic fares dramatically lower than rivals | The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/level-british-airways-sister-airline-transatlantic-flight-fares-prices-norwegian-lower-rivals-a7639771.html)

Level will increase its fleet to at least 30 aircraft:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-03-17/british-airways-owner-enters-discount-long-haul-with-level-arm

here in argentina tickets were cheap, the first day, now is more expensive. Prices are at the same level Norwegian charges for the same trip.

[7Q Off]

In the South America - Europe market Level and Norwegian will not kill each other. Will hurt the traditional carriers. The south america pass looks for price. GDP is lower here than in europe. They travel via hubs with 1 or 2 stops just to save 100 bucks. A lot or the trafic generated to spains is VFR (visit friend and relatives). Migrants. They care about prices. LATAM, Iberia, Aerolineas Agentinas, Avianca, will be hurt one way or another.

[aloa326]

SAMCA please first of all learn proper english, it hurts my eyes. And second, you dont know what you are saying at all. Of course people from ryanair, easyjet and norwegian, captains from Vueling or Copa joined Iberia last year... Iberia is not what it was, but its the best you can get.


Hi,
Besides what Samca said, Iberia is the best you can get comparing to.....

[samca]

SAMCA please first of all learn proper english, it hurts my eyes. And second, you dont know what you are saying at all. Of course people from ryanair, easyjet and norwegian, captains from Vueling or Copa joined Iberia last year... Iberia is not what it was, but its the best you can get.

WSahead, my English Level is enough for people who try to understand me. Anyway I think you are a Spanish guy that passed the Volotea Assestment in 2014, you have been not too many years in this business.
Please don't lie people selling your sh... Iberia and the contract offering to the new joiners is the worst contract offered by a spanish company in the History. Very far from Ryanair, Norwegian and Eeasyjet LOCOS and practically nobody in my company went through the Assestment. That's the reality.
Spanish conpanies are crab. Iberia, the first one, followed by Vueling, Volotea (cheap copy of VUELING), Iberia Express even worst and so...

[WindshearAhead]

Comparing to any other airline in South Europe, from my point of view, but I maybe be wrong ofc.

SAMCA I just said that you were lying, thats all. And I know many ppl like you and me over 35 who cant join Iberia, so I understand your frustration mate, but chill out. (Btw not spanish and never been in Volotea's assesment, I leave that for the young ones)

[slowjet]

Wasn't this tried decades ago ? Seem to recall BA 757 ops out of Spain or Portugal. On line applications only defeated me. Pursued it & finally got a humorous response from the "Selection Team" regretting my non-selection but patronisingly suggesting that " no doubt, a man of your capability will find an outlet for his talents ". Honestly , still got the email that I keep in my "Rejected" folder. Anyway, just wondered if it ever happened.

[papazulu]

my English Level is enough for people who try to understand me.

Hell, no it isn't. You want airlines to step up their game and pay up top dollar but you can't be bothered to improve your language skills? Love your attitude, macho...:hmm:

I suggest you get better in typing your thoughts in an international language that should be anyway a tool of your trade, then get your facts right and finally come back to expose them.

[samca]

Comparing to any other airline in South Europe, from my point of view, but I maybe be wrong ofc.

SAMCA I just said that you were lying, thats all. And I know many ppl like you and me over 35 who cant join Iberia, so I understand your frustration mate, but chill out. (Btw not spanish and never been in Volotea's assesment, I leave that for the young ones)

Never in my life went to an Iberia Assestment. So sorry you are wrong. I'm not interested in Iberia at all. In fact Iberia Express called me when I was flying for an Airline in America but when I heard about their working conditions I refused to come Spain for doing the Assestment.
So believe me, I work for the airline that I want to work for... I'm not frustrated

[samca]

Hell, no it isn't. You want airlines to step up their game and pay up top dollar but you can't be bothered to improve your language skills? Love your attitude, macho...:hmm:

I suggest you get better in typing your thoughts in an international language that should be anyway a tool of your trade, then get your facts right and finally come back to expose them.



Yeap I know, my grammar is a disaster but I'm not worried promise you. Most of the colleagues from UK I usually fly with understand me perfectly. Anyway do not deviate from the issue... Iberia working conditions are very poor, level 11 salary table is what it is and so...

[Keepittight]

So you were interested in getting into Iberia Express but not in to Iberia...yea I see...
This post is full of Spanish people working for LCC or for South American Airlines looking for a new job and mean time talking nonsense.

[Dan Winterland]

The funny thing is that both RYR and EZY have become a sort of "legacy LCC's" offering pretty decent conditions (pay, rosters, training ) in comparison to what is now offered currently by new LCC's... oh, the irony!

Low Ts and Cs only work for a short while, After the guys who went there for experience get it and go, and then bad mouth their employer so no one else joins. It's not really ironic that the first to adopt this policy now have half decent terms - they realised that if they were to survive, they have to pay. They get their pound of flesh from their employees in other ways, such as productivity.

Nevertheless, we see start-up LoCos testing the bottom with crappy Ts and Cs and it seems pilots are not biting - or even available - just look at the number of job ads Small Planet push out. The LoCos will continue to test the limit, but it seems like the number of pilots willing to take up these jobs is reducing.

[hubbs1982]

Interesting article here, see Iberia Pilots are doing LEVEL until the end of this year, anyone know if they're going to open up recruitment for 2018?

Link here - Iberia pilots will vote this friday the agreement of sepla on level | Spaintrips.org (http://spaintrips.org/iberia-pilots-will-vote-this-friday-the-agreement-of-sepla-on-level/4237)

[Northern Monkey]

Personally I think at some stage, passengers will become sick and tired of being treated like cattle. Up to this point, all most people care about seems to be the price of the ticket. But there comes a point when everybody loses patience. We haven't reached it yet but we may not be far away.

As airlines strip more and more away from their product in order to reduce costs, and demoralised staff are unwilling or unable to meet customer service expectations, there may yet be an opportunity for those airlines willing to invest in a proper product. Even if they have to charge more for it.

[hubbs1982]

https://centreforaviation.com/insights/analysis/iags-level-starts-four-barcelona-routes-to-americas-eyes-paris--rome-bases-asia-destinations-351171

Found another article, the paragraph copied below is particularly interesting, does anyone know when LEVEL will start recruitment? -

"LEVEL's corporate structure and management is still evolving. For now, LEVEL is using Iberia pilots and cabin crew and flights operate under an IB code.

This required IAG to reach an agreement with Iberia pilots, which was was signed between Sindicato Espanol de Pilotos de Lineas Aereas (Spanish Airline Pilots Union – SEPLA) delegates and Iberia in May-2017, to last until 31-Dec-2017. Although using staff from Iberia, LEVEL pilots' annual working hours limit has been raised to 900 hours from 850 at Iberia.

Nevertheless, after its initial phase IAG plans to establish LEVEL as a stand alone company with a new corporate structure. It will eventually have its own AOC and, presumably, recruit its own staff."

[mftx7jrn]

Agree NM. I, for one, am willing to pay extra for a decent service, especially on Long Haul. I personally think it is a mistake for the legacy carriers around the world (stand fast the US, where some legacy carriers have re-introduced certain 'service factors') to be stripping out their core service. Only time will tell and I guess a lot depends on the state of the world economy moving forward.

[The Mixmaster]

Looks like LEVEL could be a big airline in future if that CAPA article accurate. Would love to know if they're going to recruit externally soon. I heard it will be Iberia, BA or Aer Lingus pilots until they have their own AOC though.

[bringbackthe80s]

Don't want to be negative here, but given the contract IB offered to the last intake..can you even begin to imagine what they will offer at the low cost sister??

[The Mixmaster]

Bringback oh not good. I'd heard it was IB mainline contract initially, you know what the t's and c's are like? Pay, roster etc...

[hubbs1982]

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/interview-iags-head-of-strategy-robert-boyle-discu-438907/

Found this interesting

[Sidestick_n_Rudder]

Anybody hear anything on the recruitment front?

Every now and then there seems to be an articule saying how successful they are and that they are about to start new bases, AOC etc.

[flyingmed]

Plenty of internal recruitment within IAG aparently. Pilots are Iberia for now.

[Sidestick_n_Rudder]

Any idea If they plan external recruitment for bases outside of Spain?