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das Uber Soldat
17th Mar 2017, 02:12
I hear Rex reduced the landing weight of a 340 today into SY by shedding a prop. Must have been entertaining for all involved.

1a sound asleep
17th Mar 2017, 02:41
https://www.facebook.com/AIRLINESECRETS/posts/1894470444159298:0

photo there

Captahab
17th Mar 2017, 02:41
Just the kiddies preparing for their jet interviews :E

logansi
17th Mar 2017, 03:06
http://i.imgur.com/bEmXGUD.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/IqbAt0v.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/rOmEpS3.jpg

https://twitter.com/www16Right

XM02A
17th Mar 2017, 03:52
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/yssy/YSSY-Twr-Mar-17-2017-0030Z.mp3

Around the 11:50 mark.

Torqueman
17th Mar 2017, 04:26
Same aircraft had power issues and a diversion into Gold Coast on Wednesday, Flt# RXA 344.


Well done crew for bringing it home safely.

logansi
17th Mar 2017, 04:33
Apparently aircraft was over Camden area when it occurred

jportzer
17th Mar 2017, 04:36
Transcript of the pilot's report of the emergency:

"768, we've just had uncommanded engine operations and then our propeller has just sheared off.

"We've lost the propeller, we've got normal controls, still able to fly, would require 16R and services on the ground.

"We should be able to conduct a precautionary landing just fine."

Car RAMROD
17th Mar 2017, 04:39
Wow!

They deserve a cool refreshing drink after that one.

Any reports on the prop being found?

Capt Fathom
17th Mar 2017, 04:44
No obvious airframe damage so looks like the prop has gone down and under the wing...luckily.

Lets hope it hasn't hurt anyone on the ground.

normanton
17th Mar 2017, 04:51
Looks like a job well done boys!

Scooter292
17th Mar 2017, 04:57
@Torqueman
The diversion to the Gold Coast was due weather, not aircraft related. It departed again at 7am local the next morning.

logansi
17th Mar 2017, 05:09
^^
Could be mistaken but I think there were almost 3 pans with a NZ aircraft touching down just a REX declared their's with a medical.

LeiYingLo
17th Mar 2017, 05:10
Two pans landing simultaneously, I was thinking that the Dash 8 Delta was a knob for demanding 16R then it transpires that he was on a pan too.

Wait... what??

Don't think it came off over Camden looks to be further west around Lake Burragorang near Yerranderie

logansi
17th Mar 2017, 05:11
The plane was likely to have been above Camden in south-west Sydney when the propeller sheared off.

Passenger plane's propeller shears off in mid-flight, forcing emergency landing at Sydney (http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/passenger-planes-propeller-shears-off-in-midflight-forcing-emergency-landing-at-sydney-20170317-gv0i1c.html)

Ex FSO GRIFFO
17th Mar 2017, 05:40
Nice job gents....:D

Cheers :ok:

Ollie Onion
17th Mar 2017, 05:44
Well done by all

jack11111
17th Mar 2017, 05:45
"The plane's distraught passengers were taken to the terminal at Sydney Airport after the plane landed and offered counselling."


Really?!

Roj approved
17th Mar 2017, 05:56
now management can introduce the single engine taxi procedure ;-)

Left 270
17th Mar 2017, 06:01
Nice job everyone! RH, I was thinking the same about the Dash, must of been fairly confusing for them!

Stationair8
17th Mar 2017, 06:17
Top marks to the REX flight crew.

ABC news are reporting a man on on the flight deck advised ATC of the problem!

aussie1234
17th Mar 2017, 06:34
Capt and first officer pay will now be docked until the full cost of the missing propeller can be recovered.

TBM-Legend
17th Mar 2017, 07:10
good job on the crew and lucky it was the RH prop too...

15 pax barely pays the bills methinks..

garpal gumnut
17th Mar 2017, 07:20
Counseling immediately after a trauma has been shown to lead to poor mental health outcomes.

Now back to the incident.

How come the propeller and environs went under he wing, rather than shearing the wing or going over it with possible damage to the frame or tail?

Rod Con
17th Mar 2017, 07:26
A spokesman for the Civil Aviation Safety Authority confirmed that the plane's right-hand propeller "came dislodged" about 10 nautical miles from Sydney Airport, and the plane declared a PAN emergency before it proceeded on to land safely.

Twin-engine planes can land safely on one propeller.

The wheels are a better option.

p.j.m
17th Mar 2017, 07:32
How come the propeller and environs went under he wing, rather than shearing the wing or going over it with possible damage to the frame or tail?
May have been poetic license, but the TV news showed it going over the wing and almost impacting the tail.

http://i.imgur.com/RXNmfL9.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/VvXI2H5.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/lt1Fo2Q.jpg

Willie Nelson
17th Mar 2017, 07:47
Great to hear there was a safe landing. Good job.

Delta kilo
17th Mar 2017, 08:14
From the SMH -

"Distraught passengers....offered counseling...."

Was there more to it than a successful single engine (prop) landing?

Lancair70
17th Mar 2017, 08:36
Quote from news.com.au Rex aircraft propeller fell off mid flight: Plane forced to land at Sydney airport (http://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act/news/regional-express-plane-in-emergency-landing-at-sydney-airport/news-story/4c34ae8ab329928283860185878dd312)


"Grahame Hutchison, an aviation photographer, snapped pictures of the stricken plane at Sydney Airport as it was towed from the terminal after its passengers disembarked.
He told news.com.au the pilots should be commended for staying calm under pressure.
“I would imagine for the passengers it would be a fairly frightening experience so hats off to pilots, they’ve done a great job.”
He said it was rare to see such damage.
“That’s the first time I’ve seen an aircraft with one propeller."

This guy needs to get out more often! LOL

lamax
17th Mar 2017, 08:37
Freed of the burden of dragging the aircraft through the air the propellor probably accelerated ahead of the a/c in a graceful descending arc. Not unknown with previous propellor separations.

onetrack
17th Mar 2017, 08:52
I just hate it when a prop falls off. It means you're gonna be late again. :)

No doubt gonna be some serious engineering investigation there, and some awkward questions asked about the last engine inspection.

Flying Binghi
17th Mar 2017, 08:53
Via Delta kilo:"Distraught passengers....offered counseling...."

Was there more to it than a successful single engine (prop) landing?


I think "offered counselling" is what's done for any event nowadays.

I'd reckon that fire ball King Air prang a few weeks back were probably fresh in the mind of many pax.




.

Eddie Dean
17th Mar 2017, 08:56
I just hate it when a prop falls off. It means you're gonna be late again. :)

No doubt gonna be some serious engineering investigation there, and some awkward questions asked about the last engine inspection.Yes onetrack, my thoughts go out to the maintenance crew.
Their sphincters would be working overtime.

garpal gumnut
17th Mar 2017, 08:59
That makes much sense.

Ex FSO GRIFFO
17th Mar 2017, 09:14
I saw the remains of the US Navy P-3 at Cocos that shed a prop.....unfortunately, it did not follow said 'graceful descending arc'.

Instead, it went thru the fuselage and impacted fatally with a crew member sitting adjacent to it.

The aircraft subsequently ditched into the lagoon.....for another 'associated' reason.

Thread drift....back to REX...
(Sic'em Rex)

Cloudee
17th Mar 2017, 09:23
US Navy P-3? If you're going to go off topic Griffo, get it right please. RAAF P3, A9-754, resulting in the tragic death of FLGOFF Tom Henniker.

Arm out the window
17th Mar 2017, 09:28
Maybe a bit lucky it didn't come through the cabin too ...

Frank Arouet
17th Mar 2017, 09:30
They normally go outwards and forward by my experience.

IsDon
17th Mar 2017, 09:36
I saw the remains of the US Navy P-3 at Cocos that shed a prop.....unfortunately, it did not follow said 'graceful descending arc'.

Instead, it went thru the fuselage and impacted fatally with a crew member sitting adjacent to it.

The aircraft subsequently ditched into the lagoon.....for another 'associated' reason.

Thread drift....back to REX...
(Sic'em Rex)

US NAVY! Get your facts right.

It was a RAAF P3-C.

And it wasn't the prop leaving the aircraft that caused it to crash, it was a distinct lack of leading edges rendering the aircraft unflyable. Totally unrelated to propellor issues.

When the aircraft ditched, with all four props producing 100% thrust, they impacted the water/reef. All four props departed up and right. Unfortunately No 2 impacted the fuselage after departing and killed the crewmember who happened to be in his ditching station where the prop breached the fuselage.

If you don't have any idea what happened Griffo then don't comment. Unless you're a journo now, in which case just make up whatever you like.

duncan_g
17th Mar 2017, 09:36
Below screenshot from FR24 playback just as they leveled off at 8000 - the liveatc audio seems to suggest the prop separated around here somewhere (controller asks would they like to maintain 8000 or continue descent).

http://i.imgur.com/AoCC2d5.png


Also... this AD would seem to be relevant? https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/granule/FR-1994-07-20/94-17328/content-detail.html and http://services.casa.gov.au/airworth/airwd/ADfiles/turbine/ct7/CT7-006.pdf

slocs
17th Mar 2017, 09:39
Since when is a pan a mayday? When reported by GT!:

Rex plane issues mayday call before emergency landing at Sydney Airport | Perth Now (http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/western-australia/rex-plane-issues-mayday-call-before-emergency-landing-at-sydney-airport/news-story/2bc1272ff0bf73bc0121354d57bfecb3)

ozbiggles
17th Mar 2017, 09:45
standby, fact checking

Ex FSO GRIFFO
17th Mar 2017, 09:51
OOOpppsss... OK OK, I'll go quietly.

When I saw it, it was very corroded, and I am aware of the wing leading edge separating after a severe pull-up, so the 'story' was....

Apols for 'giving' this one to the US Navy....

logansi
17th Mar 2017, 10:54
Is it possible that the prop shaft could literally rip itself apart due to an extremely excessive uncontrolled increase in RPM? That's what uncommanded engine operations would mean to me.

Ultralights
17th Mar 2017, 11:14
If the prop seperated in the approx area of the map above. It should be relatively easy to recover, from someone's lounge room, back paddock or garden. If it's in the blue mountains national park, it would be nearly impossible to find.

Ozgrade3
17th Mar 2017, 11:22
Isn't the CT7 engine a fixed turbine. Would the FCU be able to keep the RPM under disc explosion level once the prop came off. What sort of torque value do the SAABs use on descent.

Is there any mode of CSU failure that would drive the blades to fine pitch. I would imagine that the drag of accelerating the engine in this case would keep the RPMs much lower than on a PT6.

megan
17th Mar 2017, 11:40
I'm pretty sure that P3 was flown by an exchange officer... possibly US Navy? It was. And a repeat of a US Navy P-3 event at Cocos three years earlier that had similar leading edge collapse but landed safely. Interesting report on the investigation into the RAAF event by ARL. Design errors by Lockheed and manufacturing defects in the leading edge ribs part of the story.

Sad end for a plane IsDon.

http://www.adf-gallery.com.au/gallery/albums/Orion-3A9-754/A9_754.jpg

logansi
17th Mar 2017, 12:18
^^ I was referring to prop RPM

The main reason I make the point is too me "uncommanded engine operations" (stated to ATC) likely means an increase in power, because a loss/reduction of power would more likely be referenced as failed engine.

cooperplace
17th Mar 2017, 12:25
I'm pretty sure that P3 was flown by an exchange officer... possibly US Navy?

if I recall correctly, the US officer flying had played a significant role, and not a positive one, in the genesis of this disaster. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Jetsbest
17th Mar 2017, 12:44
if I recall correctly, the US officer flying had played a significant role, and not a positive one, in the genesis of this disaster. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

The Canadian exchange officer & captain flying at the time was but one of the 'slices of Swiss cheese' in the event's evolution.🤔😉

IsDon
17th Mar 2017, 15:31
The Canadian exchange officer & captain flying at the time was but one of the 'slices of Swiss cheese' in the event's evolution.🤔😉

Correct, the guy was on exchange from Canada, not the US.

I believe, happy to be corrected, he was also the Aurora display pilot prior to his posting to Australia. Doing air shows in the aircraft. I've been told this by others, I don't know it for certain.

shiftpattern
17th Mar 2017, 15:32
SF340 VH-EKT had torque motor issues immediately prior to this incident.

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/1992/aair/aair199201222/

Crew elected to land without going to torque motor lockout. Prop runaway ensued resulting in loss of control and snapping of nose gear on touchdown. Not saying todays incident is similar but the CT7, like any engine, is not infallible.

https://www.geaviation.com/commercial/engines/ct7-engine

It's been around a while and is pretty reliable.

Job well done by the crew. I'm sure Rex will give them a little bit of extra nothing in their pay check as a reward.

corrigin
17th Mar 2017, 16:34
Well done job by the crew, as well as ATC and emergency services.

Pistonprop
17th Mar 2017, 16:47
Interesting that they declared it only as a Pan. Then again I suppose they did have full control of the aircraft and they were Ozzies ;)

I'm sure the pax said "sod councelling, where's the bar"! :)

Car RAMROD
17th Mar 2017, 20:35
Auto feather.... Pffft... Auto-jettison!!

ChrisJ800
17th Mar 2017, 21:05
Did the flight crew call it a pan pan or was that designated by ATC? Nicely managed by all given the additional medical pan pan at similar time. But should both planes have been allowed 16R then the runway check done? As the taxi time from 16L is long for the flight with the medical emergency.

mrred81
17th Mar 2017, 21:23
Did the flight crew call it a pan pan or was that designated by ATC? Nicely managed by all given the additional medical pan pan at similar time. But should both planes have been allowed 16R then the runway check done? As the taxi time from 16L is long for the flight with the medical emergency.

The problem is the rex aircraft vacating the runway in time for the medical pan

CharlieLimaX-Ray
17th Mar 2017, 21:45
Has GT come forward with a theory yet?

Was the aircraft turning from upwind to a downwind air mass?

Has ATSB checked Cash Convertors out in western Sydney in case they have Saab prop for sale?

topdrop
17th Mar 2017, 22:25
Aviate, Navigate, Communicate - perhaps by the time they told ATC, they had everything under control and thought Mayday was no longer warranted.

Desert Flower
17th Mar 2017, 22:26
Great job to the crew!

Can't wait for the headlines, "ultralight crash lands at Sydney Airport"

I can't wait for the headlines "aircraft are designed to land with only one prop"

DF.

HEMS driver
17th Mar 2017, 22:34
Props to the crew for a job well done. :E

Adamastor
17th Mar 2017, 22:47
Pilot declared the PAN but ATC declared it a Distress Phase based on the information received so it was a full emergency turnout at YSSY. Absolutely sterling effort by the crew.

logansi
18th Mar 2017, 00:10
Crew, REX and aviation in Australia very lucky on this one. Could have easily turned deadly had that prop pierced a wing, fuselage or the horizontal or vertical stabs. We will never know but would be very interesting to know how close it came.

barit1
18th Mar 2017, 00:17
Ny bet is that the entire gearbox output shaft departed.with the prop attached. The shaft is secured to the "bull" gear (last step in the gear train) with a large single nut on the aft end of the shaft. ff this nut loses traction, the prop thrust will pull the shaft right out the front end. Don't be surprised if prop and shaft as a unit are discovered more-or-less intact.

Slippery_Pete
18th Mar 2017, 01:54
Where the hell is Geoffrey Thomas? No-one else will be able to unscramble this near disaster.

And what does Airline Ratings say about it all?

Jeps
18th Mar 2017, 02:41
Where is Geoffrey? I need someone to make sense of this ultralight Boeing A320 motor incident

c_coder
18th Mar 2017, 03:54
Interestingthey were Ozzies ;)
My Australian ears detected a New Zealand accent in the audio from the incident.

Jc31
18th Mar 2017, 04:10
Don't worry ladies and gents the situation is under control

http://www.airlineratings.com/news/1105/rex-aircraft-sheds-prop

blakemc
18th Mar 2017, 06:27
My favourite part is "audio logs obtained by ATC" making out as if they aren't openly available online

Lookleft
18th Mar 2017, 07:32
What do they say about it being better to let people think you are a fool than to open your mouth and prove it.

From the Airline Ratings article:

Australian safety authorities are investigating a rare accident which saw a propeller break loose from the right engine of a Regional Express (Rex) 34-passenger SAAB 340 as it approached Sydney airport.

Its not an accident if there were no injuries and no hull loss. It is an incident.

calmly continuing the flight and landing safely at 12.05am local time.

Daylight saving is good but it doesn't keep it daylight until midnight in Sydney!

And these two expect to be taken seriously.:ugh:

601
18th Mar 2017, 07:42
It is understood the pilots were in the process of shutting down the engine after experiencing vibrations when one of them saw the propellor detach and fly across the wing, luckily missing the tail section.

Have any of the crew given a statement that would be available to the media?

troppo
18th Mar 2017, 07:59
Have any of the crew given a statement that would be available to the media?

Yeah...employees of listed companies that make statements available to media don't remain employees for long. Whilst well intentioned it can have drastic effects on share price.

Edit...just saw the context you posted in and appreciate your question could be interpreted in another way ie that you were querying whether what was reported was from a statement...carry on...

Dogs Best Friend
18th Mar 2017, 08:20
Good on you guys. Good outcome

I hope the process of getting you back on line reflects a job well done and you are treated with respect by the powers that be. Best of luck!

Should make interesting reading when the report comes out.

Lasiorhinus
18th Mar 2017, 08:40
http://rex.com.au/MediaRelease/Files/503_MR20170317-FlightZL768Albury-Sydney.pdf

Rex themselves put out a comprehensively detailed press release.

Regional Express (Rex) flight ZL768 operating from Albury to Sydney on 17 March 2017
experienced an event associated with the aircraft’s right propeller assembly. The crew
followed standard operating procedures and the aircraft landed normally and on-time at
Sydney Airport.


So apparently it was just an event, and the most important thing is that they landed on time....

ThreeThreeMike
18th Mar 2017, 09:58
"Grahame Hutchison, an aviation photographer, snapped pictures of the stricken plane at Sydney Airport as it was towed from the terminal after its passengers disembarked.
He told news.com.au the pilots should be commended for staying calm under pressure.
“I would imagine for the passengers it would be a fairly frightening experience so hats off to pilots, they’ve done a great job.”
He said it was rare to see such damage.
“That’s the first time I’ve seen an aircraft with one propeller."

This guy needs to get out more often! LOL

.

This bit from a CASA spokesman was even better. One wonders what he's been doing for the last 20 years. Very good work by the crew..

.

In the pan-pan call, the crew said the propeller assembly had “dislodged”, Civil Aviation Safety Authority spokesman Peter Gibson told AAP, while photographs of the plane on the ground showed the right propeller missing altogether. Mr Gibson said during his 20 years in the aviation industry he’d never heard of a propeller falling off a plane.

“I’ve never come across it ... it’s very unusual,” he said

Jenna Talia
18th Mar 2017, 11:03
In reference to the propeller, Mr Gibson probably meant the entire assembly rather than throwing just one blade.

and you are treated with respect by the powers that be

Wholly agree, but the word respect and REX management are worlds apart.

RENURPP
18th Mar 2017, 11:05
I can't recall an event like this in the last 20 years either, I can recall one about 24 years ago. A baron inbound to Darwin about 20 DME from memory, lost its propellor (assembly)

megan
18th Mar 2017, 12:25
Going back to April 14, 1964, which was an exciting day for Capt. Keith Hants and crew when #3 of their Ansett-ANA DC-6B threw a blade and the engine ended up sitting in the bottom of the cowling. Pulled "g" over Port Phillip bay until it fell out, then landed. Old timers will remember Keith as a sim instructor at Essendon following his airline stint.

ImbracableCrunk
18th Mar 2017, 14:40
How come the propeller and environs went under he wing, rather than shearing the wing or going over it with possible damage to the frame or tail?

Maybe initially the prop went forward with the residual thrust and is it did, gravity pulled it down.

barit1
18th Mar 2017, 20:54
dehg5776The shaft sheared at the point where the drive shaft extends out of the gear box. Everything forward of that is missing.

Sounds scary. That kind of failure sequence likely results in substantial "wobble" of the prop as it falls off to one side and finally separates off-axis. In that case it does not fly straight ahead to fall off in a gentle arc, but instead flies sideways or up or down, endangering the airframe. I'd druther it flew straight ahead!

Band a Lot
19th Mar 2017, 03:45
I can't recall an event like this in the last 20 years either, I can recall one about 24 years ago. A baron inbound to Darwin about 20 DME from memory, lost its propellor (assembly)

Did this rip the engine out of its mounts? But engine was contained within the cowls and by flexible hoses?

Band a Lot
19th Mar 2017, 03:57
To see how a complete propeller assembly will depart an engine/aircraft while still rotating maybe buy one of these and see for yourself.

Child Kids Spin Space Toy Plastic Flying Saucer Saucers Shooter Gun Set Gift | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Child-Kids-Spin-Space-Toy-Plastic-Flying-Saucer-Saucers-Shooter-Gun-Set-Gift-/161547690425)

TTY
19th Mar 2017, 05:01
A little bit over 20 years ago but on Feb 1 1993 a Nord Mohawk 298 VH-HKS lost a prop somewhere over the national park area just north of Sydney whilst en-route to Tamworth. Don't think it was ever found.

aussie027
19th Mar 2017, 05:13
Well done to all involved.
They were extremely lucky the airframe was not hit and severely damaged when it came off as is often the case in these type of incidents.

For eg,
There was this accident back in 1995, sadly a crash and people killed.
A blade separated from the hub first, then the whole prop came off and lodged in the now drooping engine nacelle and wing LE.
Was on Air Crash Investigations show.

There have been a few of these type of events in transport category turboprops but thankfully they are rare.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Southeast_Airlines_Flight_529

ThreeThreeMike
19th Mar 2017, 05:30
.

ASA Flight 529 came to mind for me as well. The captain performed his duties to the fullest extent possible and saved lives.

Frank Arouet
19th Mar 2017, 08:22
The loss of a propeller blade as opposed to a propeller are two different incidents with two different consequences.

Dale Hardale
19th Mar 2017, 09:34
Where the f**k is the propeller?:confused:

If it occurred between Camden and Sydney, can't believe it hasn't been found by someone.

WhisprSYD
19th Mar 2017, 10:03
Pretty good chance it's come down somewhere around R555 (Holsworthy)

IsDon
19th Mar 2017, 11:04
Where the f**k is the propeller?:confused:

If it occurred between Camden and Sydney, can't believe it hasn't been found by someone.

Has anyone checked eBay?

It may be lost forever. Buried in the grass on someone's front lawn. Along with the 1978 Kingswood.

PoppaJo
19th Mar 2017, 11:04
Where is it? On gumtree of course!

https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/mount-annan/miscellaneous-goods/aircraft-propellor-saab-340/1142267959

LOL

Dale Hardale
19th Mar 2017, 11:25
excellent:\

jabflyer2200
19th Mar 2017, 12:16
A little bit over 20 years ago but on Feb 1 1993 a Nord Mohawk 298 VH-HKS lost a prop somewhere over the national park area just north of Sydney whilst en-route to Tamworth. Don't think it was ever found.

Here are two earlier prop and engine loss events


1964 Ansett ANA DC6B VH INA lost prop from RH inner due fatigue fracture after take off Essendon then engine itself fell off. Landed safe
1940 ANA C2 VH USY right hand engine fell off after engine fire. Landed safe NHill.

Dora-9
19th Mar 2017, 19:51
Not just two. Bell Brothers' Cessna 411 (VH-BBV) near Meekatharra WA around 1968. Prop sheared off, and then came back and punctured the fuselage in several places. It missed the pilot's head by a few inches. DCA (as they then were) subsequently mounted a huge, and unsuccessful, search for the prop. I thought Griffo would have mentioned this one.

I'm with everyone else - I think the Rex crew did a great job here.

0ttoL
19th Mar 2017, 23:20
Coincidentally, I saw an episode of Air Crash Investigations recently covering Reeve Aleutian Airways Flight 8 in 1983.
Lockheed Electra lost a prop.

"The propeller tore a gash 8 feet (2.4 m) long in the aircraft's belly, causing the cabin to depressurize (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncontrolled_decompression) and jamming the flight controls and engine throttle controls."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reeve_Aleutian_Airways_Flight_8

All were very lucky to survive.
Good episode.

logansi
20th Mar 2017, 04:52
REX has grounded 5 other aircraft with the same gear box series

Regional airline Rex has grounded an additional five planes as an investigation continues into how a propeller fell off one of its aircraft as it was approaching Sydney Airport late last week.
Regional Express says the crew had shut down the right-hand engine of the Saab 340 before the propeller assembly "was seen by the first officer to separate from its shaft" on Friday when the flight from Albury was 25 kilometres southwest of Sydney.
"Rex has decided, by abundance of caution, to immediately remove from service and quarantine all propeller gear boxes and shafts of the same series as that of the incident for further inspection and testing if warranted," Rex said in a statement on Monday.
A spokeswoman told AAP five aircraft were grounded in addition to the plane involved in Friday's incident, which has been quarantined.
Two normally operate on Rex's Melbourne network, one is from Sydney and the remaining two are Pel-Air freighters.
"There will be some minor disruptions for one or two days," the spokeswoman said.
The Saab 340's engine was shut down on Friday following "abnormal indications", with the pilot "feathering" the propeller to reduce drag.

Rex grounds planes after propeller mishap (http://www.news.com.au/national/breaking-news/rex-grounds-planes-after-propeller-mishap/news-story/73129cc7fd2763d274e2e8471ff0caf8)

The statement indicating the prop was being feathered indicates it was already shut down at the time of the separation which seems strange to me, what forces could rip a prop of if it wasn't under thrust?

Flying Binghi
20th Mar 2017, 05:11
Via logansi:
The statement indicating the prop was being feathered indicates it was already shut down at the time of the separation which seems strange to me, what forces could rip a prop of if it wasn't under thrust?

Going off the news reports, they were shutting down because of a vibration.
As the prop were slowing down it would have been affected by all the other airframe/engine/gearbox/prop vibrations and may have hit a 'sweet spot' of harmonics that created enough vibration to finnish the job off.

E.g., many aircraft prop/engine combinations have an engine 'rev range' where they should not be operated for any length of time due to vibration considerations.




.

onetrack
20th Mar 2017, 05:59
I'd suggest the engine vibration abnormality leading to the crew shutting it down, was due to the propellor assembly becoming unbalanced as the shaft started to fracture on a serious scale - and as the engine was being shut down and the prop being feathered, the fracture finally extended to the full circumference of the shaft, and the propellor assembly then fell off.

http://oi63.tinypic.com/29cxwkg.jpg

logansi
20th Mar 2017, 07:48
Does anyone know the maintenance/inspection scheduled for the prop shaft?

Band a Lot
20th Mar 2017, 09:04
The schedule is today and before further flight.

I hear they are extending this shaft in the next mod status so better NDTs can be conducted between overhauls. Also 3 extra grease nipples will be fitted for better (some) maintenance of the prop shaft other than visual inspection of the area you can not see when prop is fitted.

ACMS
20th Mar 2017, 10:02
So how's the Engine itself?

john_tullamarine
20th Mar 2017, 10:53
1964 Ansett ANA DC6B VH INA lost prop from RH inner due fatigue fracture after take off Essendon then engine itself fell off. Landed safe

A bit more to it than that. One story record is here (http://www.radschool.org.au/magazines/Vol42/Page12.htm).

Keith Hants ... lovely bloke. Gone now a few years ....

Band a Lot
20th Mar 2017, 12:33
Interesting prop de-ice brush block and its brushes!!

gulliBell
20th Mar 2017, 13:51
I'm surprised such a thin shaft can swing a 300kg prop with 1000+ horse power swinging it. Coming from the helicopter world, a sheared shaft like that for us would result in a very different outcome.

Eddie Dean
20th Mar 2017, 19:45
1964 Ansett ANA DC6B VH INA lost prop from RH inner due fatigue fracture after take off Essendon then engine itself fell off. Landed safe

A bit more to it than that. One story record is here (http://www.radschool.org.au/magazines/Vol42/Page12.htm).

Keith Hants ... lovely bloke. Gone now a few years .... From the Air Hostess:
One lady started to cry rather loudly, but her husband gave her a quick backhander and she was then content to just whimper quietly for the next hour.

Tim Hamilton
20th Mar 2017, 22:16
This is Ben's article on Plane talking -

REX broke safety rule in last Friday's lost propeller incident
How many times does an airline like REX ignore air safety rules before it is sanctioned?
Ben Sandilands
Editor of Plane Talking
Share to FacebookShare to TwitterShare to LinkedInShare to Google+

The propeller-less REX flight after landing at Sydney
Opinion It’s time to call ‘bulldust’ on REX’s claims about being ‘abundantly cautious’ in grounding four or five SAAB 340 propjets for inspections following the loss of a propeller off one of a similarly powered aircraft while approaching Sydney Airport last Friday.

If REX had been adhering to safety regulations it would have landed that flight from Albury to Sydney with 16 people on board at Canberra immediately after it had an initial malfunction in that engine.
Instead the crew is now known to have shut down the engine and feathered the propeller after noticing a vibration related problem while close to Canberra and electing to continue all the way to Sydney on one engine at a reduced altitude of 8000 feet until the propeller came off somewhere over the Macarthur area.

This is contrary to the rules. The relevant regulation is found here.
Relying on the discretionary provisions of the regulation in relation to Canberra Airport would be an exercise in implausibility not to mention stupidity that has already captured the attention of the safety regulator CASA and the safety investigator the ATSB.

Had this happened in the US or most other first world countries when it comes to the enforcement of aviation safety regulations, REX would have been sanctioned, audited, and even had its equivalent of an air operator certificate put at risk of suspension or the imposition of special conditions.
It is against Australian, and worldwide air safety regulations, to fly an aircraft on a remaining operating single engine past the nearest available airport (if useable) to a more distant airport.

In the case of the REX flight from Albury the duration of flight past Canberra Airport to Sydney would have been in the order of 40 minutes or so. The opportunities for an emergency landing on one remaining engine had a further crisis eventuated are limited, but would have included Goulburn, at least one private strip at Gundaroo, and the sometimes busy general aviation airport at Camden, which is near where it is estimated the feathered propeller, which has has yet to be found, fell off.
REX has left itself open to suggestions that it broke the rules to gamble on nothing else going wrong in order to make a near to on-time arrival at Sydney Airport.

The ATSB is reported as saying that it is ‘very interested’ in the reason for the decision of the pilot in command to have continued past Canberra with a dead engine.
CASA is also known to have expressed concerns about the nature of this incident.

This is a major change of attitude on the part of the safety investigator, the ATSB, and the safety regulator, CASA, since an incident with some similarities occurred on a REX SAAB 340 service between Wagga Wagga and Sydney in November 2007.
That flight experienced an engine shut down shortly after taking off for Sydney and was also within close range of Canberra Airport when the crew in consultation with REX operations, continued to fly all the way to the intended destination on one engine.

After the 2007 incident REX said the pilot elected not to land at Canberra because of poor weather on the approach to that airport at the time. The ATSB even made excuses for REX on that occasion, but never coherently defended the willful breaking of a vital safety regulation nor answered the obvious questions as to why Goulburn, Griffith, Corowa or similar available airports weren’t used.

The ATSB investigation into this latest REX incident is in its early days. The close up photos of the break point between the missing propeller and the engine appear to indicate some sort of structural failure induced by stresses that may or may not have been affecting the assemblage even prior to the vibrations that caused it to be shut down while near Canberra. Whether the causes include structural as well as maintenance related factors remains to be determined.

But there is no reason why a diligent Minister or the safety regulator itself should not initiate action to deal promptly with the prima facie case of a considered violation or disregard of the most fundamental of air safety practices involving twin engined airliners.

There is a question of imminent risk to public safety if a requirement as basic to flight safety as this is treated in such an apparently cavalier manner.
If it was good enough to ground Tiger Airways in 2011 for its outrageous indifference to Australian air safety rules then surely some timely intervention in the oversight or conduct of REX flights is required without further delay.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My Comment - Not Good Enough Rex !!
Sure this will be another CASA whitewash

Eddie Dean
20th Mar 2017, 22:29
Seems Ben is continuing with his bagging of the Rex group ala Pelair debacle.
From my reading the pilot shut the engine down and feathered about 20 mins from Sydney.
Any others know more about this?

Ultralights
20th Mar 2017, 22:32
really, 8000 ft above camden, and he thinks they should have gone somewhere closer? YSBK YSCN? YSSY is pretty much the clostest strip with the required emergency services, and im sure would be pretty close to gliding distance from there.
and if the crew had followed the Aviate Navigate then communicate bit, then im sure they would have done a control check, and deamed the aircraft safe to fly to YSSY.

Lookleft
20th Mar 2017, 22:39
Ben Sandilands wants every airline other than qantas to be shutdown. Continued flight on one engine criteria includes a pilots familiarity with an airport.

601
20th Mar 2017, 22:48
REX broke safety rule in last Friday's lost propeller incident

Maybe BS should read and digest Civil Aviation Order 20.6.3.1 and 3.2.

What would have happened if Sully tried tor the nearest airport?

IsDon
20th Mar 2017, 23:12
I usually have a lot of respect for Ben, but he's lost the plot here.

The nearest airport is not necessarily the best one.

Canberra has challenges due to its high density altitude and terrain very close to the airport, making a go around on one engine challenging to say the least.

He's also suggesting Camden or a private strip. Either would be unacceptable for a number of reasons. High numbers of GA aircraft at one, zero emergency services at another.

A crew has to balance all of these competing priorities before making a judgement call as to what is the best solution to the problem given all of the facts.

If the aircraft were on fire, possibly a different story. It wasn't. It was on one engine and by all accounts flying ok and in control. Once the prop fell off there was nothing to be gained in rushing an approach into an unfamiliar airfield with compromised terrain or support issues.

In my personal opinion the crew made the absolutely correct call.

Ben. Pull your head in. You're not qualified to make the comment you have.

megan
20th Mar 2017, 23:21
So Ben's trying to tell us they feathered the prop close to Canberra, and then flew 40 minutes to Sydney, and the prop fell off 19Km SW of Sydney? Bollox I'd say.

Tim Hamilton
21st Mar 2017, 01:07
[QUOTE=IsDon;9713166]I usually have a lot of respect for Ben, but he's lost the plot here.

The nearest airport is not necessarily the best one.

Canberra has challenges due to its high density altitude and terrain very close to the airport, making a go around on one engine challenging to say the least.

He's also suggesting Camden or a private strip. Either would be unacceptable for a number of reasons. High numbers of GA aircraft at one, zero emergency services at another.

A crew has to balance all of these competing priorities before making a judgement call as to what is the best solution to the problem given all of the facts.

If the aircraft were on fire, possibly a different story. It wasn't. It was on one engine and by all accounts flying ok and in control. Once the prop fell off there was nothing to be gained in rushing an approach into an unfamiliar airfield with compromised terrain or support issues.

In my personal opinion the crew made the absolutely correct call.

Ben. Pull your head in. You're not qualified to make the comment you have.

It is likely, from Bens informed piece. The PIC made the WRONG CALL !In line with CASA Regs

Tim Hamilton
21st Mar 2017, 01:23
It is likely, from Bens informed piece. The PIC made the WRONG CALL !In line with CASA Regs

IsDon
21st Mar 2017, 01:27
It is likely, from Bens informed piece. The PIC made the WRONG CALL !In line with CASA Regs

There are two people wrong.

You and Ben.

anonymouspilot
21st Mar 2017, 02:24
Can anyone provide evidence/reference the engine was shut down closer to Canberra? This hasn't been mentioned anywhere else.

Regardless of the location, the Orders are quite clear. Ben even provided a link in his article, you'd think he would have read it first. The Order says ' The PIC...may proceed to an aerodrome of his or her selection instead of the nearest suitable aerodrome if...' and goes on to list a number of considerations. You might disagree with the selection (Tim and Ben obviously do) but the ONLY person charged with the responsibility of this decision is the PIC, and the regs clearly allow him to exercise such discretion.

To categorically state that safety regulations have been contravened, because the PIC made a decision which the regs allow him to make, is simply incorrect.

IFEZ
21st Mar 2017, 02:41
Regardless of the location, the Orders are quite clear. Ben even provided a link in his article, you'd think he would have read it first. The Order says ' The PIC...may proceed to an aerodrome of his or her selection instead of the nearest suitable aerodrome if...' and goes on to list a number of considerations. You might disagree with the selection (Tim and Ben obviously do) but the ONLY person charged with the responsibility of this decision is the PIC, and the regs clearly allow him to exercise such discretion.

To categorically state that safety regulations have been contravened, because the PIC made a decision which the regs allow him to make, is simply incorrect.


Spot on. Ben seems to have dropped the ball on this one.

WhisprSYD
21st Mar 2017, 03:17
Where did Ben get his information about the aircraft flying past Canberra at 8000ft on one engine?

As far as I know the aircraft was at F170 until well past Goulburn and then started a normal descent at about 60nm sydney. Usual TOD from that level..

There's been no indication that trouble was encountered until shortly before the prop came off (which happened at around glenfield). This means the only 'closer' AD would have been YSBK... but the aircraft would of needed 25 miles of vectoring on one engine to get down on an unfamiliar approach through the Bankstown training zone.

Nice one crikey.

Eddie Dean
21st Mar 2017, 03:21
Where did Ben get his information about the aircraft flying past Canberra at 8000ft on one engine?

As far as I know the aircraft was at F170 until well past Goulburn and then started a normal descent at about 60nm sydney. Usual TOD from that level..

There's been no indication that trouble was encountered until shortly before the prop came off (which happened at around glenfield). This means the only 'closer' AD would have been YSBK... but the aircraft would of needed 25 miles of vectoring on one engine to get down on an unfamiliar approach through the Bankstown training zone.

Nice one crikey. And that is the facts as I read them also. Why is Hamilton coming on here trying to slander the operating crew and the operator is the question in my mind.

BPA
21st Mar 2017, 03:33
7 news are reporting that Polair have found the prop near The River Rd in Revesby.

megan
21st Mar 2017, 03:56
Plotted the descent point and is 60NM in round figures from Mascot (as quoted by WhisprSYD) ie Canberra was 76NM behind and Goulburn 36. Cruise speed unchanged to TOD. Tracked overhead SYD for a left downwind landing to the south.the aircraft would of needed 25 miles of vectoring on one engine to get down on an unfamiliar approach through the Bankstown training zoneAs it was, from overhead SYD to touch down consumed 15 minutes. Details from flightaware.

spinex
21st Mar 2017, 03:57
Well I hope for their sake Sandilands and Crikey have gotten their facts right, because if he had accused me of recklessly endangering pax on false allegations, it is a toss up whether I would be reaching for a club or a phone to call my solicitor.:suspect:

Even if the allegation were true - that the fault was identified earlier in the flight and the engine shut down near Canberra, I find it difficult to understand how a pilot could have foreseen the danger of a feathered prop flying off the aircraft. It is a very rare occurrence to start with and in all instances of which I am aware, it has happened whilst a prop was being powered.

The whole piece reads like someone has an axe to grind and I'm afraid that whatever the outcome of the investigation, Sandilands has slid down the dungheap of journalism and joined the baggage handler in my estimation.

jonkster
21st Mar 2017, 03:58
Really looks like the PIC - " Stuffed Up Here" Just get it down. It could of had some sort of airfram damage. Just get it down soonest !!

where is the evidence that YSCB was closest at time of problem? Where is there any evidence of stuff up other than... well what?

Seems like all speculation and innuendo at the moment which is not only unhelpful and unfair but potentially libelous.

If you want to go out publicly and lay blame and criticism you need to provide evidence. How do you know what happened and where? And how do you know what the decision process for landing at YSSY was? Were you on the flight deck?

Sorry - that smacks of armchair expert to me but feel free to back up with more evidence than hearsay and rumour.

FullOppositeRudder
21st Mar 2017, 03:58
Media releases: 21 March 2017 - Missing SAAB 340 propeller located (http://www.atsb.gov.au/newsroom/2017/missing-saab-340-propeller/)

logansi
21st Mar 2017, 03:59
Well look what we have here:

http://i.imgur.com/FSBlD3T.jpg

Found near Revesby Heights - almost 30km from Camden

Tim Hamilton
21st Mar 2017, 04:04
where is the evidence that YSCB was closest at time of problem? Where is there any evidence of stuff up other than... well what?

Seems like all speculation and innuendo at the moment which is not only unhelpful and unfair but potentially libelous.

If you want to go out publicly and lay blame and criticism you need to provide evidence. How do you know what happened and where? And how do you know what the decision process for landing at YSSY was? Were you on the flight deck?

Sorry - that smacks of armchair expert to me but feel free to back up with more evidence than hearsay and rumour.


Time will tell !!

itsnotthatbloodyhard
21st Mar 2017, 04:08
Ben has now retracted and apologised, and so he should. That was a pretty poor effort.

ozbiggles
21st Mar 2017, 04:13
Time will tell....

3 years is the going rate isn't it?

Tim Hamilton
21st Mar 2017, 04:15
Ben has now retracted and apologised, and so he should. That was a pretty poor effort.

Where is this ?

jonkster
21st Mar 2017, 04:18
Time will tell !!

It has.


#lostprop The information relied upon in the earlier post was incorrect. Apologies to #REX and their pilots

The crew and company got unfairly slandered, without evidence by armchair 'aviation experts' who gleefully want to have a free shot and act all morally upright and 'in the know' when they know little at all.

source: https://twitter.com/@PlaneTalking

logansi
21st Mar 2017, 04:19
Where is this ?

https://twitter.com/PlaneTalking?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5 Eauthor

Absolutely disgusting he should also ensure that media (such as CH.7) whom reported his claims as fact immediately apologies. I personally know of a Captain in the US who took his own life after getting 'trial by media' after a commercial incident in 2014.

propsmear
21st Mar 2017, 04:22
I hope you have a good solicitor Ben Sandilands, maybe then you will learn to keep pen from paper until you know some actual facts. Which you clearly don't at all. :=

spinex
21st Mar 2017, 04:22
Ha ha, went back to screenshot the offending article to find a new headline and buried well down the piece, a paragraph containing a retraction and apology - seems BS was fed some of the same by parties supposedly in the know and went off half-cocked. New text;

"An earlier post on this topic (for which the comments have been preserved) contained some incorrect information published in good faith. To be blunt, this reporter is unhappy with this situation, particularly given some of the sources.
It has now been established that the flight last Friday from Albury to Sydney was well past Canberra Airport when the pilots shut down the right hand engine and feathered its propeller, shortly before it separated and fell away, fortunately missing any control critical surface of the SAAB 340, which could have caused an crash likely to kill all 16 people on board. That propeller hasn’t been found. My apologies to REX and their pilots for doubting the judgments that led to a continuation of the flight when it was incorrectly described as having first encountered engine problems near Canberra."


Oh and BS, try and keep up would you, the propeller has been found.

itsnotthatbloodyhard
21st Mar 2017, 04:28
Interesting that right now, the article headline is still 'REX Broke Safety Rule In Last Friday's Lost Propeller Incident'.
Ben need to fix this up and then go and have a good hard look at himself.

Tim Hamilton
21st Mar 2017, 04:29
As I said previously perhaps it’s time to pension off the ageing SAAB-340B's

Been around a long time since 2007 for the B version and the A version (No longer in REX service) ever longer

Regional Express bought B version 340’s in 2007 second hand from American Eagle. who began operating them around 1990. So some in the Regional Express fleet could be up to 27 years old.:eek:

Question is - what could replace them.

Perfect for REX's missions.

Any ideas ?

Flying Binghi
21st Mar 2017, 04:50
Heh.. Sandilands is one of them global warming nutters so i'm not surprised he writes fact free articles..:hmm:





.

GADRIVR
21st Mar 2017, 04:56
So Tim......
you've slandered the crew pretty well here a few paragraphs ago.
Do you have an apology ready to go son?

p.j.m
21st Mar 2017, 05:16
Really found this time

Missing propeller found in Revesby bushland after falling off REX flight (http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/missing-propeller-found-in-revesby-bushland-after-falling-off-rex-flight-20170321-gv2x35.html)

A 100-kilogram propeller that fell off a Regional Express flight bound for Sydney has been found in bushland close to a built-up residential area in the city's south-west.

A crime scene has been set up at the location where the propeller was found in the Georges River National Park, just off The River Road.I'd love to know how they determine this to be a "crime" scene. They seem to do the same with car accidents.

https://i.imgur.com/TgM9YoO.jpg

p.j.m
21st Mar 2017, 05:22
Found near Revesby Heights - almost 30km from Camden

wow, Georges River National Park, just off The River Road Revesby Heights, barely 15 kilometres from YSSY in metro Sydney!

BPA
21st Mar 2017, 05:26
Really found this time

Missing propeller found in Revesby bushland after falling off REX flight (http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/missing-propeller-found-in-revesby-bushland-after-falling-off-rex-flight-20170321-gv2x35.html)



I'd love to know how they determine this to be a "crime" scene. They seem to do the same with car accidents.

https://i.imgur.com/TgM9YoO.jpg

Cirme scene means they (the police) will secure the site until the ATSB arrives, as the ATSB will want to photograph the surrounding damaged trees as well as the prop, before it's moved.

Tim Hamilton
21st Mar 2017, 05:28
ABOUT VH-NRX

Serial number 291
Type 340B
First flight date 25/02/1992
Plane age 25.1 years
Registered 6 Oct 2004 in Australia

Built by Saab Aircraft AB, Linkoping, Sweden - 1992
First flown with test registration SE-G91 - February 25, 1992
Entered onto the U. S. Aircraft Register as N362BE - March 24, 1992
Registered to Lambert Leasing Inc, U. S. A.
Leased to Business Express, New York as the registered operator
Registered to Grant Holdings Inc, U. S. A. - July 29, 1992
Leased to Business Express, New York as the registered operator
Business Express was renamed Business Express Airlines - May 22, 1997
Withdrawn from service and and returned to Lessor for storage at Nashville, Tennessee - December 2000
Leased to Peninsula Airways, Anchorage, Alaska as the registered operator - January 01, 2004
Withdrawn from service and and returned to Lessor for storage at Nashville, Tennessee - August 03, 2004
Departed Nashville on ferry flight to Australia - September 20, 2004
Arrived Wagga Wagga at the conclusion of ferry flight - September 24, 2004
Cancelled from the U. S. Aircraft Register - September 30, 2004
Entered onto the Australian Aircraft Register as VH-NRX - October 06, 2004
Registered to Saab Aircraft Leasing AB, Linkoping, Sweden
Leased to Australia wide Airlines Ltd, Wagga Wagga t/a REX Regional Express Airlines as the registered operator
Operated first revenue service Wagga Wagga - Sydney as ZL664 - November 03, 2004
Sold to Regional Express Holdings Limited, Mascot, Sydney - October 16, 2008
Wonder how many hours and cycles it has accumulated ?
Would be interesting information.

logansi
21st Mar 2017, 05:39
If Ben is reading this I just want to warn him that he needs to tread very carefully.

Speaking to my who is a commercial lawyer she believes that REX would have clear ground to take action against the claims, especially as REX is an ASX listed company where false, unverified claims can lead to reactions to stock price.

p.j.m
21st Mar 2017, 05:40
so one of these 2 areas then, probably the smaller one if the news report about being close to The River Road is correct...

https://i.imgur.com/QrUeFka.jpg

spinex
21st Mar 2017, 05:41
Resolute March 21, 2017 at 9:06 am (https://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2017/03/20/62116/#comment-81852)
As a ex commercial pilot, I dont understand why –
The PIC didnt land at the closest suitable airfirld/port ?
He should not of continued on to Sydney !
T i m.


They must have tightened up the English language requirements since old mate qualified as "a ex commercial pilot"(sic). Still awaiting that apology to the crew though.

marreeman
21st Mar 2017, 05:46
Would love to hear from Ben and/or Tim, on what classes an aerodrome as suitable for a Regional express Saab? In order to use a non suitable aerodrome a mayday would have to be declared.

das Uber Soldat
21st Mar 2017, 05:48
Ill take it that an apology isn't imminent shall I Tim?

Car RAMROD
21st Mar 2017, 05:59
Spinex, I wonder where old mate might be an "ex commercial pilot" from?

Would it be jumping too much to a conclusion that it might be the obvious, and there's some fairly sharp axes now?

Either that or just someone that likes to stir. But anyway, probably not worth expending too much effort on!

Tim Hamilton
21st Mar 2017, 06:00
Would love to hear from Ben and/or Tim, on what classes an aerodrome as suitable for a Regional express Saab? In order to use a non suitable aerodrome a mayday would have to be declared.

Bankstown is closest.

lamax
21st Mar 2017, 06:00
Sandiland's comments highlights the paucity of professional aviation journalists in Australia. The rush to make headlines indicates a lack of expertise and skill in independently researching and producing original material.

p.j.m
21st Mar 2017, 06:02
Bankstown is closest.

how would they handle an emergency at short/no notice??

they were only 15 klms from Sydney Airport when the propeller sheared off, and already on track.

j3pipercub
21st Mar 2017, 06:09
Keep doubling down Tim, it seems to be working.

In this situation, anyone that thinks it would be a good idea to divert to BK with SY only minutes away with looong, wide runways and fantastic RFFS, is a farking clown.

LeiYingLo
21st Mar 2017, 06:15
so one of these 2 areas then, probably the smaller one if the news report about being close to The River Road is correct...

https://i.imgur.com/QrUeFka.jpg

http://www.pprune.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=1952&d=1490076563

Seems to have drifted about half a mile north of track. It's just amazing it has managed to miss all that residential area and the roads to end up in the bush. The good fortune continues...

das Uber Soldat
21st Mar 2017, 06:28
Bankstown is closest.
You were asked what classes an aerodrome as suitable from the operators point of view. Not 'what is the closest'. Want to try that again?

Regardless, you're aware aircraft can't make an approach to land whilst in a vertical dive? Have a think about that.
You're aware BK has no on airport fire/rescue services?
You're aware BK is a 30m wide runway less than 1400m in length?
You're aware BK has large amounts of GA traffic?
You're aware BK is about 90 seconds from SY?

There is a village somewhere missing something.

Dogs Best Friend
21st Mar 2017, 06:45
What is it about this industry where we are all experts and some of us feel we have the right to mouth off about our thoughts and speculations about what happened and what should have been done.

Lets wait and see what the people who have all the facts in front them have to say before you wankers hang draw and quarter the crew.

Don't forget there are a few things to think about in a situation like this and its unexpected (not the SIM). Never mind the fact the aircraft is doing about three to four miles a minute and there was weather around at that time. Fair do's guys.

We should be all pleased and happy nobody was hurt.

compressor stall
21st Mar 2017, 06:56
If anyone is saying that a pilot faced with an engine shut down should always without fail proceed to the closest airport should lose their pilot licence privileges.

This crew had an emergency. They dealt with it.
The destination airport for which they had briefed the approach lay straight ahead on a normal profile
The pilots are familiar with the destination airport
They could fly a long easy ILS at the destination
The destination runways are larger
The destination airport had RFFS
The aircraft was under control

Yes there was a closer airport. But it:

Does not have RFFS (what if there was fuel leaking in the nacelle, being blown out by the slipstream and igniting on landing?)
Is unfamiliar to the flight crew
Would need to be briefed by the flight crew who probably have never been in there. This briefing would probably take longer that the transit time to YSSY.
Has smaller runways
Has lots of GA traffic.


If there is anyone suggesting that it was a safer option for the Rex crew land at Bankstown airport they are either not a pilot, or shouldn't be one. And should shut up.

markis10
21st Mar 2017, 06:57
so one of these 2 areas then, probably the smaller one if the news report about being close to The River Road is correct...

https://i.imgur.com/QrUeFka.jpg

Neither, propeller was 800m left of track in the river reserve between river Rd and sandakan Rd.

Tim Hamilton
21st Mar 2017, 07:25
The less time you sped in the air in a damaged aircraft - is vital !

Desert Flower
21st Mar 2017, 07:26
Resolute March 21, 2017 at 9:06 am (https://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2017/03/20/62116/#comment-81852)
As a ex commercial pilot, I dont understand why –
The PIC didnt land at the closest suitable airfirld/port ?
He should not of continued on to Sydney !
T i m.


They must have tightened up the English language requirements since old mate qualified as "a ex commercial pilot"(sic). Still awaiting that apology to the crew though.

Says the person who wrote he should not of instead of he should not have! :ugh:

DF.

Tim Hamilton
21st Mar 2017, 07:39
Some may say if a pilot that chooses to do the opposite is failing in his duty of care for crew and passengers.
Is complacent and arrogant in his ability to make a more distant airport safely.
Keeping in mind there may have been damage to the aircraft that is not immediately apparent, that could prove to be Catastrophic
travelling the extra distance. (I am not necessarily referring to this incident. Just in general terms)

jonkster
21st Mar 2017, 07:43
The less time you sped in the air in a damaged aircraft - is vital !

are you a troll or are you serious? If not a troll, what is your experience?

what is your motive for slagging off at the crew and Rex as you have been for several posts? Are you seriously suggesting ysbk would have been the best option from there?

If so why? Brief the landing at bk from that position for us and explain why it would be the better option - I would assume with a southerly wind on that day they would be using the 11 rwys, how are they going to set themselves up for that from where they are? What altitude are they? What configuration? How long will it take to get into bk from there compared to sy? Why would it be shorter or better time-wise or facility wise or workload wise? Over what sort of area will they need to fly to set themselves up to land on 11c at bk? What traffic did bk have - would they need time to close the airspace and get circuit and inbound traffic clear?

Hope the crew are not reading what you are saying as I would think it is highly offensive.

Tim Hamilton
21st Mar 2017, 07:50
I am simply saying there was another/closer option.

Nothing else !

You have misread my post above. I urge you to re read it :-)

Matt48
21st Mar 2017, 08:00
The less time you sped in the air in a damaged aircraft - is vital !



Mate, best quit while you're behind. !

Ultralights
21st Mar 2017, 08:07
I am simply saying there was another/closer option.

Nothing else !

yes, correct...

but not the BEST option..

josephfeatherweight
21st Mar 2017, 08:13
Appallingly ignorant comments from Tim Hamilton. Talk about digging the hole deeper!

Car RAMROD
21st Mar 2017, 08:14
I am simply saying there was another/closer option.

Nothing else !


Against my better judgement of not expending effort on you, here goes.

Yes there was "another option", but it wasn't a good one!

If they had enough fuel I'm sure Brisbane or Melbourne or was an option too!


Tim, the way you are writing is that the crew should have gone to BK simply because it was the closest physical airport, despite the fact that SY is the best option, given all the requirements as put forth in the CAOs for continued flight with 1 inop.
Have you given thought to the fact that, whilst something might be physically the closest, an airport a bit further may be better? Think of something called the need to descend and track miles- you wouldn't dive bomb in from over the top of something. Or maybe you would?

Now I suggest you refrain from posting unless you have something that is actually worthwhile.


I think the rest of us professional, and smart/logical pilots, are probably in agreement!

With that, I'd just like to echo what many others have said- good job crew!

Mach2point7
21st Mar 2017, 08:46
The modified Crikey story (including apologies) is now headed:

"REX may be victim of engine defect in lost prop incident"

But the text talks of an 1991 incident in the USA to which the NTSB concluded that it was "a fatigue fracture on the propellor shaft". Does not say anything about an engine defect, just the prop shaft.

First Crikey beats up on the aircrew and now on GE.

Surely the prop shaft is part of the propellor assembly or the gearbox assembly and not the engine. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Band a Lot
21st Mar 2017, 08:53
The less time you sped in the air in a damaged aircraft - is vital !


Actually QF32 proved that just the right amount of time in the air in a damaged aircraft "is vital"

Or Timmy should QF32 landed immediately back at Singapore?

Tim how long does it take to read the emergency procedures in Flight Manual for a lost propeller? or best relevant section of Emergency Procedures?

Or should crew not follow Flight Manual instructions in emergencies?

Show me any and I mean ANY POH or Flight Manual that has a "head to nearest airport" before reading this check list any further.

Not even Tim Taylor would suggest such stuff.

Nose wheel first
21st Mar 2017, 08:56
So Tim,

Keeping in mind there may have been damage to the aircraft that is not immediately apparent, that could prove to be Catastrophic
travelling the extra distance. (I am not necessarily referring to this incident. Just in general terms)

Based on the comment above I have a statement and a couple of questions.

1) But we ARE dealing with THIS incident. To introduce other hypothetical scenarios isn't helpful in this instance. To even suggest Bankstown, irrespective of you simply saying there was another/closer option. is implying that you absolutely believe they should have diverted there.

2) Do you have experience on the SAAB or any twin turboprop for that matter? If so, please share.

3) Are you suggesting that they should have abandoned their normal descent profile, steepened it up considerably, possibly stressed the aircraft more, rushed a briefing, flown into (possibly) unfamiliar airspace, elected to not have RFF available and elected to take a far shorter and narrower runway? All when Keeping in mind there may have been damage to the aircraft that is not immediately apparent, that could prove to be Catastrophic
travelling the extra distance

I suggest to you that distance isn't the factor in this case but rather time (if we expand on your argument). I'd bet my left one that had they decided to go for Bankstown, they would have been airborne longer than they were going into Sydney.

Jonkster is bang on the money with his comment: If so why? Brief the landing at bk from that position for us and explain why it would be the better option - I would assume with a southerly wind on that day they would be using the 11 rwys, how are they going to set themselves up for that from where they are? What altitude are they? What configuration? How long will it take to get into bk from there compared to sy? Why would it be shorter or better time-wise or facility wise or workload wise? Over what sort of area will they need to fly to set themselves up to land on 11c at bk? What traffic did bk have - would they need time to close the airspace and get circuit and inbound traffic clear?

Again, if you have some relevant experience and are able to comment from a position of authority, experience, knowledge, ability and expertise then I believe it is incumbent upon you to share with all of us what your qualifications are! If you have little or none then it would be nice if you'd kindly refrain from making ill informed comments. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

megan
21st Mar 2017, 09:14
Again, if you have some relevant experience and are able to comment from a position of authority, experience, knowledge, ability and expertiseJerk.....I mean, Tim Hamilton has none of those. Still awaiting the apology to the crew for a job well done.

Tim Hamilton
21st Mar 2017, 09:17
So Tim,



Based on the comment above I have a statement and a couple of questions.

1) But we ARE dealing with THIS incident. To introduce other hypothetical scenarios isn't helpful in this instance. To even suggest Bankstown, irrespective of you is implying that you absolutely believe they should have diverted there.

2) Do you have experience on the SAAB or any twin turboprop for that matter? If so, please share.

3) Are you suggesting that they should have abandoned their normal descent profile, steepened it up considerably, possibly stressed the aircraft more, rushed a briefing, flown into (possibly) unfamiliar airspace, elected to not have RFF available and elected to take a far shorter and narrower runway? All when

I suggest to you that distance isn't the factor in this case but rather time (if we expand on your argument). I'd bet my left one that had they decided to go for Bankstown, they would have been airborne longer than they were going into Sydney.

Jonkster is bang on the money with his comment:

Again, if you have some relevant experience and are able to comment from a position of authority, experience, knowledge, ability and expertise then I believe it is incumbent upon you to share with all of us what your qualifications are! If you have little or none then it would be nice if you'd kindly refrain from making ill informed comments. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

It saddens me to see you doing this :ugh: TWF

I enlightened many here with my fresh perspective, my job is done

Goodnight all.

Lots of Zzzzz

Tim aka The Yoda of Aviation.

spinex
21st Mar 2017, 09:17
C RAMROD, if you're in need of inspiration in the little room, a quick scan of old mate's previous utterings on these pages should get things moving along.

A long (very) time ago I had a business card that identified me as a Consulting Gynecologist (amateur); all that indicated was an enthusiasm for the subject, not any expertise and I'd suggest there may be a parallel here.

josephfeatherweight
21st Mar 2017, 09:20
I enlightened many here with my fresh perspective, my job is done

You're the finest example of a self-licking icecream I've come across in a long time.
Sleep tight...

Nose wheel first
21st Mar 2017, 10:07
I enlightened many here with my fresh perspective, my job is done

:}:}:}

Time to stop feeding the troll

Tim Hamilton
21st Mar 2017, 10:07
Note VH-NRX is an old aircraft.
Over 25 years old in fact.

As you can see from history in previous post above.
It has been around the block – many times
Nothing last forever.

Time to put NRX and the other SAAB-340’s out to pasture.

unworry
21st Mar 2017, 10:09
A little bit over 20 years ago but on Feb 1 1993 a Nord Mohawk 298 VH-HKS lost a prop somewhere over the national park area just north of Sydney whilst en-route to Tamworth. Don't think it was ever found.

You might want to pop into that old pub near wiseman's ferry and admire the ceiling fixture :E

Tim Hamilton
21st Mar 2017, 10:12
You might want to pop into that old pub near wiseman's ferry and admire the ceiling fixture :E

Dont tell me they have MDX there also ...

FlyingChipmunk
21st Mar 2017, 10:28
Spinex....
Gold!
you're up next on Jimmy Fallon's show :ok:

C RAMROD, if you're in need of inspiration in the little room, a quick scan of old mate's previous utterings on these pages should get things moving along.

A long (very) time ago I had a business card that identified me as a Consulting Gynecologist (amateur); all that indicated was an enthusiasm for the subject, not any expertise and I'd suggest there may be a parallel here.

unworry
21st Mar 2017, 10:43
Tim, if you're up,

I'm still intrigued why you so stridently believed at the time that AF447 was downed by a meteorite? Care to share?

dijical
21st Mar 2017, 10:43
I'm amazed that Ben Sandilands would totally shred his reputation in this way. What he wrote was extraordinarily negligent given the fact free basis that he started with.

If REX wants to sue him for defamation, I'd imagine it would be a complete shoe in. If they don't sue him, they will have a sword hanging over him that he can never escape.

Either way his credibility is gone. Very sad.

Tim Hamilton
21st Mar 2017, 10:51
Ben Sandilands is the most Respected and Knowledgeable
Aviation journalist in the land.
Resolute – the Yoda of Australian Aviation.

dijical
21st Mar 2017, 10:54
Ben Sandilands is the most Respected and Knowledgeable
Aviation journalist in the land.
Resolute – the Yoda of Australian Aviation.

Alas, no longer.

Tim Hamilton
21st Mar 2017, 10:59
This "Incident" will be punching a hole in their pax uplift figs . .

Looking at their flights tomorrow on their top city pairs
SYD - Albury/Wagga/Dubbo and Orange and reading between the lines.
It looks like they are cancelling/consolidating flights to me.

REALLY - Who would fly on their 340’s now, unless they absolutely had to - after this.
Another 340 of similar age/cycles may encounter the same thing.

Why tempt fate.

Prior to CASA report is released.

dijical
21st Mar 2017, 11:02
This "Incident" will be punching a hole in their pax uplift figs . .

Looking at their flights tomorrow on their top city pairs
SYD - Albury/Wagga/Dubbo and Orange and reading between the lines.
It looks like they are cancelling/consolidating flights to me.

REALLY - Who would fly on their 340’s now, unless they absolutely had to - after this.
Another 340 of similar age/cycles may encounter the same thing.

Why tempt fate.

Prior to CASA report is released.

Yeah, I'm going to stop driving my car too. Lots of fatal crashes. Why temp fate?

jonkster
21st Mar 2017, 11:06
Tim, you are a troll on hotcopper as the 'yoda of lithium' and a troll here.

I seriously doubt any of your claims to be a commercial pilot on either forum.

You are dealing with people's careers and reputations - from all we currently know the crew did a professional job under pressure and your ill informed sniping as a keyboard warrior expert is way out of line.

At least Ben Sandilands was a mensch and corrected himself and apologised. That says at least something.

You however are just trolling here like you do on other forums because you thrive on being controversial. Enough.

TWOTBAGS
21st Mar 2017, 11:08
It looks like they are cancelling/consolidating flights to me.

wouldn't have anything to do with having 10% of the fleet grounded for checks..... nah probably not.

For all their faults they are dealing with one of those good old "unknown unknowns" as best they can, kudos to the guys in the front.

Car RAMROD
21st Mar 2017, 11:09
Spinex, thanks but no thanks. I've read enough (well, too much actually) of old mates nonsensical crud in this thread already, no point looking for more! I've got other things to keep me better entertained.

Band a Lot
21st Mar 2017, 11:11
Tim with no due respect!

This is an engine issue not an airframe issue. The engines get overhauled and also changed often.

This engine could be as little as a few months old - I don't know, do you?

You would really look more of a fool if this was actually a brand new engine 9 days old (since fitment) with a total time of 22.3 hours.

Tim Hamilton
21st Mar 2017, 11:31
Just been looking at REX's financials. From a semi layman’s view - they don’t look great. Check for yourself on the ASX code REX

Sure however they are spending the money they need, to keep their ageing 340's in tip top condition.

I wouldn’t be surprised if VA or QF are waiting in the wings to snap up.

To recapitalise a new feeder fleet, for their mainline networks.

dijical
21st Mar 2017, 11:37
Just been looking at REX's financials. From a semi layman’s view - they don’t look great. Check for yourself on the ASX code REX

Sure however they are spending the money they need, to keep their ageing 340's in tip top condition.

I wouldn’t be surprised if VA or QF are waiting in the wings to snap up.

To recapitalise with a new feeder fleet, to their mainline networks.

Semi layman? You don't mean semi literate do you?
Full time troll for sure.

Band a Lot
21st Mar 2017, 11:51
Just been looking at REX's financials. From a semi layman’s view - they don’t look great. Check for yourself on the ASX code REX

Sure however they are spending the money they need, to keep their ageing 340's in tip top condition.

I wouldn’t be surprised if VA or QF are waiting in the wings to snap up.

To recapitalise with a new feeder fleet, to their mainline networks.



Since you looked, can you confirm the amounts of political donations to Labor and Liberal party's?

Tim Hamilton
21st Mar 2017, 12:00
Rex Net Profit in Millions -

2007 23.1
2008 24.3
2009 23.0
2010 24.6
2011 17.6
2012 25.5
2013 14.0
2014 7.7
2015 6.7
2016 -9.6


Source - Westpac Online Investing

Band a Lot
21st Mar 2017, 12:58
So new engines were/will fitted to all aircraft from 2013 till 2018?

Sauce - Mint, but chilli says that is less minus profits than most airlines over same years - even Qantas from memory (just lazy to post the same years). Dam Qantas mad a good profit last year for a change!!!

barit1
21st Mar 2017, 18:35
The less time you sped in the air in a damaged aircraft - is vital !

Shortest time in the air? Try a vertical dive! :*

Bleve
21st Mar 2017, 21:54
You are right, he is not a pilot and he is not a professional in anything he does!

Professional Troll & F*wit maybe?

barit1
21st Mar 2017, 23:53
Raptor090
You are right, he is not a pilot and he is not a professional in anything he does!

Gerhard Neumann's office wall bore a sign:
No man is totally useless; He can always serve as a bad example.

itsnotthatbloodyhard
22nd Mar 2017, 00:03
Maybe it's more a case of someone who's not quite playing with a full deck, but craving attention. The kindest option might be to just ignore him.

tartare
22nd Mar 2017, 00:24
Getting back on thread - aside from a big bang and sudden yaw - can anyone explain what the immediate signs on the flight deck might be that a prop had departed a turboprop engine?
Would you notice a sudden jump in N1 and N2 speed on the affected engine - change in oil pressure?

barit1
22nd Mar 2017, 01:07
change in oil pressure?
Since the prop appears to be a HSD Hydromatic, its actuating oil will be lost. I do not recall if it is an extension of the gearbox oil system, but in any case, it is separate completely from the core or gas generator system.

Would you notice a sudden jump in N1 and N2 speed on the affected engine -

The free turbine will try to overspeed but an independent electronic control will keep that from going ballistic by cutting back core speed. (These may be labeled Nhigh (core) and Nlow (free turbine) but it's been 35 years so I don't claim to remember for sure.) So yes, free turbine will overspeed and cycle up and down, driven by core also cycling.

tartare
22nd Mar 2017, 01:11
Thank you.

sms777
22nd Mar 2017, 02:35
Interesting to see that the prop was already feathered when it departed the airframe.

Checklist Charlie
22nd Mar 2017, 03:15
Forgive my confusion but there's something not quite right about this from the ABC, my bold.
The first officer saw the propeller separate and travel horizontally upwards and away from the aircraft.

CC

KRviator
22nd Mar 2017, 04:08
Forgive my confusion but there's something not quite right about this from the ABC, my bold.


CCDepends on your interpretation I guess. Did the prop adopt a horizontal attitude immediately on departing the engine, a'la a helicopter rotor, and residual thrust then push it up and over the wing?

p.j.m
22nd Mar 2017, 06:53
a few dings and nicks...

https://i.imgur.com/RcvGTbv.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/SNmdcMk.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/nQf8R2I.jpghttp://

https://i.imgur.com/jzngAn4.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/d9rx9pz.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/kSbE0id.jpghttp://

PinkusDickus
22nd Mar 2017, 08:37
I reckon some of the posters have got lots of egg on their collective faces. the Tim Hamilton I know is/was a commercial pilot with a lot of twin experience, has held management positions with second tier airlines and an owner of a high performance single. I'd suggest it's the accusers that are the trolls - just saying...

spinex
22nd Mar 2017, 08:46
And you reckon the womble posting here is one and the same? I reckon my complexion is just fine sans egg, thank you. I note that the mods on Rumours and News lost patience with his drivel quick smart and binned the posts within hours.

Band a Lot
22nd Mar 2017, 09:36
Don't know this system but if on fine pitch stops at time of depart - the prop would be in full fine. If in normal operation it will be off the fine pitch locks/stops and after depart head to either full fine or feather (depends on design) but it is a long time since props were designed to go full fine upon oil failure.

So to find the prop in a feather position seems normal to me.

BEACH KING
22nd Mar 2017, 10:40
Is it just me.. or does that prop assembly look to be in remarkably good condition considering it's last journey?

t_cas
22nd Mar 2017, 11:01
Is it just me.. or does that prop assembly look to be in remarkably good condition considering it's last journey?

It'll buff out.

Composite prop and tuff.

The crew did well under unusual circumstances. All souls safe. That is the best outcome.

I hope they are sleeping ok. It is tuff after any incident.

Take care out there.

Lead Balloon
22nd Mar 2017, 11:06
Is it just me.. or does that prop assembly look to be in remarkably good condition considering it's last journey?It's just you.

All of the entire propeller assemblies I've seen that have disconnected from a Saab 340B in flight have looked just like the one in the photos.

Pinky the pilot
22nd Mar 2017, 11:16
All of the entire propeller assemblies I've seen that have disconnected from a Saab 340B in flight have looked just like the one in the photos.

Ok Leadie, I'll bite.:} how many 'entire propeller assemblies' that have 'departed from a Saab 340B in flight' have you actually seen?:confused:

A genuine question BTW.

Lead Balloon
22nd Mar 2017, 11:26
Just the one!

But seriously: Why would anyone be surprised that an artefact designed and built to withstand the kinds of forces endured by a propeller assembly like that look in pretty good nick after it disconnects and falls to earth?

FlightBoy787
22nd Mar 2017, 11:50
“Interesting to see that the prop was already feathered when it departed the airframe”
Does that mean –
1. It was feathered immediately before separating and if so pilot did the right thing continuing to KSA
2. Was feathered earlier on in the flight, where a diversion to a closer suitable airport (Wagga Wagga/Canberra/Goulburn/Camden/Bankstown) should have been considered/done by PIC
Interesting.

barit1
22nd Mar 2017, 16:27
Don't know this system but if on fine pitch stops at time of depart - the prop would be in full fine. If in normal operation it will be off the fine pitch locks/stops and after depart head to either full fine or feather (depends on design) but it is a long time since props were designed to go full fine upon oil failure.

So to find the prop in a feather position seems normal to me.

After several decades of getting it right, this company surprisingly got it wrong. Very interesting reading:
http://libraryonline.erau.edu/online-full-text/ntsb/aircraft-accident-reports/AAR92-03.pdf

KRUSTY 34
22nd Mar 2017, 23:13
Is it me, or are there supposed to be nuts attached to the threaded bolts in pics 2 and 3?

Happy to be corrected.

Eddie Dean
22nd Mar 2017, 23:20
Is it me, or are there supposed to be nuts attached to the threaded bolts in pics 2 and 3?

Happy to be corrected. Looks same to me Krusty

Lead Balloon
23rd Mar 2017, 00:20
Seems to me to be very, very odd that out of the bolts that are visible, only one has a nut. Others appear to have a washer in place and one appears to have snapped off. The visible threads seem 'clean', as if they have had nuts driven on them relatively recently. The plate shows signs of washers having been in place.

I would find it very, very difficult to believe that there should not be washers and nuts on all those bolts, or that they were there and somehow wound themselves off after the propellor departed the engine.

Hopefully the ATSB report will shed some light on whether this is normal.

pistonpuffer
23rd Mar 2017, 00:21
It does show that a prop can depart a Saab 340 and not hit the fuse, how I don't know.

DrongoDriver
23rd Mar 2017, 00:33
Apparently they had another IFSD today coming out of Dubbo

Eddie Dean
23rd Mar 2017, 00:36
Most intriguing, are the missing flange attach nuts cause or affect?
Why can I see the letters FA on the broken tube?
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DraggieDriver
23rd Mar 2017, 00:47
Seems to me to be very, very odd that out of the bolts that are visible, only one has a nut. Others appear to have a washer in place and one appears to have snapped off. The visible threads seem 'clean', as if they have had nuts driven on them relatively recently. The plate shows signs of washers having been in place.


Compare picture 2 to 3 and you see in 2 all of the nuts missing as well as the larger tube which in picture 3 is being held by one nut. It looks to me like the pictures are out of sequence, and show the part which failed being removed from the prop assembly as part of the investigation process.

spinex
23rd Mar 2017, 00:47
That prop flange was removed by the ATSB recovery team before the prop was transported to the bat cave. I suspect the photos/video we're seeing were taken during the removal process.

FlightBoy787
23rd Mar 2017, 01:27
DUBBO IFSD (In Flight Shut Down) all over ABC News 24.

All the pieces on the REX 340 picture coming together to make an overall picture for me.

Sure media are digging for more. Will be interesting to see what they uncover.

Eddie Dean
23rd Mar 2017, 01:29
That prop flange was removed by the ATSB recovery team before the prop was transported to the bat cave. I suspect the photos/video we're seeing were taken during the removal process.That makes sense.

megan
23rd Mar 2017, 02:58
Tis said it was the FO's first day on the job. What an introduction.

Lead Balloon
23rd Mar 2017, 03:45
That makes sense.That does not make one iota of sense to me. Why would the ATSB remove a part out in the bush rather than in the controlled environment of its 'bat cave'. What was the advantage or necessity of removing a part in situ?

Nonetheless, that's a much better explanation - if true - than the alternative.

Cessna Jockey
23rd Mar 2017, 03:49
A Regional Express (Rex) flight travelling from Dubbo to Sydney was forced to make an emergency landing at Dubbo Airport on Thursday morning.

It is believed 26 people were on board, with early indications pointing to engine failure as the cause of the landing.

After departing at 9.33am, the plane circled Dubbo multiple times, then landed shortly after 10am.

An announcement made at the terminal indicated a flight from Parkes to Sydney would divert to Dubbo to pick up passengers.

The incident comes less than a week after a propeller detached from a Rex plane on the Albury-Sydney route, about 18 kilometres from Sydney Airport.

A statement from Orana Local Area Command outlined Thursday's incident.

“Police from Dubbo, along with NSW Fire and Rescue and NSW Ambulance officers attended Dubbo Airport about 10am today,” it read.

“It was reported that a Saab 340 aircraft approaching Dubbo, operated by Rex Airlines, was experiencing engine trouble and was awaiting emergency landing instructions.

“At the time the aircraft had 23 passengers and 3 crew on board.

“The emergency response plan for airport emergencies was activated and, once emergency agencies were in place at the airport, the aircraft made a successful landing with one engine shut down.

"The captain described the landing as 'normal' and according to procedure.

"None of the passengers or crew were injured and none presented for treatment to NSW Ambulance staff.

"The matter will now be investigated by CASA and the aircraft grounded pending the outcome of the investigation."


Rex flight en route to Sydney makes emergency landing at Dubbo Airport (http://www.smh.com.au/business/aviation/rex-flight-en-route-to-sydney-makes-emergency-landing-at-dubbo-airport-20170323-gv4nij.html)

Eddie Dean
23rd Mar 2017, 04:08
That does not make one iota of sense to me. Why would the ATSB remove a part out in the bush rather than in the controlled environment of its 'bat cave'. What was the advantage or necessity of removing a part in situ?

Nonetheless, that's a much better explanation - if true - than the alternative.That's probably because you would rather believe the engineers didn't torque the prop nuts correctly, your dislike of the workers is well known.

Wunwing
23rd Mar 2017, 05:35
Maybe so they could fit it into a prop dolly for transport?

Wunwing

p.j.m
23rd Mar 2017, 05:43
It is not obvious to me why ATSB would have considered it necessary or prudent to remove components on site. Do you have any insight into that?

Someone must have considered it a very important piece of evidence, and didn't want to let it out of their sight....

spinex
23rd Mar 2017, 08:38
Maybe so they could fit it into a prop dolly for transport?

Wunwing

Ha ha, have you seen the photos? Tied down, spinner up and resting on an old tyre on the back of a flat bed.

I don't know the ATSB's protocols, but I'm inclined to think that if they documented the whole thing properly, it may have been as well to remove the bit of obvious interest instead of entrusting it to a flingwing driver to deliver safely:8 They'd have looked right silly if the thing had slipped its tethers and dropped flange first onto some nice hard surface this time, destroying all that nice evidence of whatever made that shaft cry enough.

Lead Balloon
23rd Mar 2017, 09:36
So p.j.m, I am curious as to why you published a close up of the place where this apparently very important piece of evidence used to be fitted, rather than a close up of it in situ before removal.

And how is it that anyone at that site had authority to publish any photos of it?

All very odd.

KRUSTY 34
23rd Mar 2017, 09:57
Sorry, mystery may be solved.

Those threaded bolts are just that, bolts. Tourqued from the opposite side to hold the prop on.

Apparently nothing to see here.

Lead Balloon
23rd Mar 2017, 10:20
The bolts that hold the prop on are a red herring in an incident in which the prop came off? The bit to which they were bolted, and whether they were correctly bolted to it, may not be.

I still don't get why the removal of the apparently very important piece of evidence resulted in a bolt that has a washer and nut on it, some bolts with a washer remaining on them and some bolts with neither.

All very odd.

strim
23rd Mar 2017, 14:43
I've had 2 free turbine blades depart their scene after landing which made a horrible noise/vibration above ground idle but all engine indications normal...

Once fuel was cut the prop stopped dead - bits of mashed up blade jammed the FPT. It sent an almighty shudder through the airframe and I imagine a reasonable force through the prop shaft.

Could a sudden total seizure of the FPT, with additional aerodynamic forces, result in what happened?

601
23rd Mar 2017, 23:15
I still don't get why the removal of the apparently very important piece of evidence resulted in a bolt that has a washer and nut on it, some bolts with a washer remaining on them and some bolts with neither.

Maybe someone was trigger happy with the camera and took photos half way through the removal of said piece.

p.j.m
24th Mar 2017, 04:59
So p.j.m, I am curious as to why you published a close up of the place where this apparently very important piece of evidence used to be fitted, rather than a close up of it in situ before removal.

You must have also missed the big "7 News" logo plastered all over them. I didn't take the photos, they were part of the local television news story, what they broadcast is what we got to see.

Lead Balloon
25th Mar 2017, 07:38
I see Band A Lot's post and my response has been magically 'disappeared', but the accusation he made about my 'dislike of the workers' has been repeated and is allowed to remain in Eddie Dean's post. For the record: Yes, I really do dislike the workers. I'd never condescend to getting my hands dirty on maintaining aircraft. Except for the last 42 years....

Anyway, p.j.m, just because there's a 7 logo on everything 7 broadcasts does not mean 7 took the photos/videos.

If 7 journos took the photos/videos themselves, that would also be odd because I don't understand why they would have been given close-up access to the site.

And - again for the record - the "alternative" to which I am referring is sabotage, not negligent maintenance.

Connedrod
25th Mar 2017, 22:57
I see Band A Lot's post and my response has been magically 'disappeared', but the accusation he made about my 'dislike of the workers' has been repeated and is allowed to remain in Eddie Dean's post. For the record: Yes, I really do dislike the workers. I'd never condescend to getting my hands dirty on maintaining aircraft. Except for the last 42 years....

Anyway, p.j.m, just because there's a 7 logo on everything 7 broadcasts does not mean 7 took the photos/videos.

If 7 journos took the photos/videos themselves, that would also be odd because I don't understand why they would have been given close-up access to the site.

And - again for the record - the "alternative" to which I am referring is sabotage, not negligent maintenance.


1st its studs and nuts and not BOLTS big difference.
2nd there is zero damage to the studs. Indicating that the prop nuts are correctly torqued.

To make any suggestions that off in proper maintenance is not only liable but flase.
In your industry the saying is , to defend ones self you have a fool for a client. And then you can at worse end up in the big house.
To perform your own maintenance and get your hands dirty and make a mistake you end up in a box. Please go and do your LAME exams and let us know how you go.

LostProperty
1st Apr 2017, 01:22
It seems Rex might have a bit of a problem with another SAAB. VH-ZRC flew into Julia Creek as RXA5627 on 24th March but apparently did not leave. Later that day a replacement aircraft, VH-ZRI, flew to YJLC from Brisbane and completed the balance of the rotation to Mt Isa and back to Townsville. According to both FlightAware and FR24, ZRC has not flown anywhere since. Unless the ADS-B is inoperative it might still be on the ground at YJLC more than a week later.

hiwaytohell
1st Apr 2017, 07:29
Did anyone else think Paul Cleary's article, with expert opinion by Byron Bailey, in the Australian a load of drivel?

How Rex pilots narrowly avoided disaster after plane lost propeller

http://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/742fb94035954e7974af438096921ac0?width=650 (http://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/742fb94035954e7974af438096921ac0?width=1024)The Saab 340 had to make an emergency landing at Sydney Airport. Picture: Grahame Hutchison.



http://media.theaustralian.com.au/authors/images/bio/paul_cleary.png (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/author/Paul+Cleary)
Senior writer
Sydney

http://pixel.tcog.cp1.news.com.au/track/component/author/a08d9264e3d273919bd17ac796225521/?esi=true&t_product=the-australian&t_template=s3/austemp-article_common/vertical/author/widget&td_bio=false
The 26-year-old Regional Express turboprop that lost its propeller this month narrowly avoided cat­astrophe when the pilots took quick action to shut down an overheating engine, according to a source who has spoken to the crew.

Unlike jet engines, the aircraft’s turboprop engine has a gearbox, which pilot and aviation expert Byron Bailey says is its “weak link”. Mr Bailey said the crew was shutting down the engine because gearbox problems were causing the temperature to rise.
He said that had the pilots not taken action to shut it down, the propeller would have “been spinning faster and it could have impacted the fuselage”.
Rex has suffered three incidents this month, with another SAAB 340 turboprop having to return to Dubbo with engine trouble, while a third aircraft returned to Sydney after the crew heard air noise associated with the ground communications hatch. Industry experts say the root cause of these problems is the age of the Rex fleet, which at 23 years is the oldest of any public airline in Australia.
Rex compares poorly with other smaller airlines such as Virgin Regional, Airnorth and Cob­ham, which have a fleet age of 15-18 years. Its planes are three times older than those of Qantas and Virgin Australia.
Mr Bailey said the effective age of the Rex fleet was much older because its 52 Saabs had “very high utilisation”.
He said he was also concerned about the Rex pilots, who were worked very hard and paid poorly.
http://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/21b95f7cfa6db831bccd8b056443be32 (http://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/21b95f7cfa6db831bccd8b056443be32?width=1024)The age and fleet size of companies
Rex declined to answer a series of questions put by The Australian about the age of the fleet and any plans the company might have to modernise it. However, the company provided a blanket response.
“Since Regional Express (Rex) started operations in 2002, Rex has carried out in excess of 1 million take offs and landings. Rex has had a perfect safety record and has never suffered any injury related to flight operations. This is a testimony to Rex’s extremely high levels of standards in both engineering and flight operations,” a company spokeswoman said in a written statement.
“Rex is constantly scanning and analysing the regional aviation environment and making plans for the long-term sustainability of services to regional Australia. The issues faced are complex and multi-faceted and several parameters need to be carefully considered when making such long-term plans. Rex will communicate its decision when definite plans have been made.”
Rex remains Australia’s largest independent airline, operating 1500 weekly flights to 58 destinations throughout Australia. The group comprises Regional Express, air freight and charter operator Pel-Air Aviation and the Dubbo-based regional airline Air Link.
Immediately after the company was formed in 2002, a group of Singaporean investors swooped and acquired more than 30 per cent of the shares. This ad-hoc group now has more than 50 per cent, plus two board seats.
Executive chairman Kim Hai Lim, who owns 17 per cent of the business, has warned that regional aviation in Australia is facing intense cost pressures.
“It would be ironic if the decimation and collapse of regional aviation in Australia took place under the Nationals’ watch,’’ Mr Lim said at the time when Brindabella Airlines, the business founded by the CASA chairman Jeff Boyd, went into receivership.
But Rex has been a profitable airline. While it recorded a $9.6 million loss in the 2016 financial year, Rex returned to the black in its latest half with a pre-tax profit of $8.6m. Aside from the 2016 loss, the business has generated sustained profits over the past decade.
Dick Smith is a big fan of the airline, which he says plays a vital role in regional Australia.
He said it was “quite a competent airline” and “we are fortunate to have them”. However, the business was a victim of increased costs imposed by CASA’s regulations, such as the new digital tracking system ADS-B.
He said big airlines could afford to pay for new safety systems because they amounted to a few dollars per passenger, but for smaller airlines “like Rex, that’s when they descend into bankruptcy”.
Aviation expert Byron Bailey praised the action taken by the pilots in the recent incident, saying it was a case of a “good crew and good training”.
“The engine was playing up and the pilots were in the process of shutting it down. The co-pilot looked out the window and that’s when the propeller came off. It was in a low power setting.”
He said colleagues who had flown the Saabs said that when they have gearbox problems, this raised the engine temperature. He believes the gearbox seized up.
“The engine had been fluctuating as the temperature was going up. The engine was overcoming the drag inside the gearbox.
“For the propeller to fly off, there must have been stress on the shaft. The only thing that could do that is the gear box seizing up.”

Unlike jet engines, the aircraft’s turboprop engine has a gearbox, which pilot and aviation expert Byron Bailey says is its “weak link”. Really???

And;

He said that had the pilots not taken action to shut it down, the propeller would have “been spinning faster and it could have impacted the fuselage”.Really???

And;

Industry experts say the root cause of these problems is the age of the Rex fleet, which at 23 years is the oldest of any public airline in Australia.Do Rex really have more tech issues? I seem to recall some newer aircraft that have had considerable tech issues over the years, 787s and 380s have not been exactly the epitome of reliability.


Mr Bailey said the effective age of the Rex fleet was much older because its 52 Saabs had “very high utilisation”.Really?

And;

“The engine had been fluctuating as the temperature was going up. The engine was overcoming the drag inside the gearbox.
“For the propeller to fly off, there must have been stress on the shaft. The only thing that could do that is the gear box seizing up.”
Really? But let's see what ATSB find.


We have all seen a few catastrophic jet engine failures. More recently the 787 and 380 have not been exactly trouble free.


I think the old SAABs/CT7s fare pretty well, and REX's maintenance is also pretty good!

Desert Flower
1st Apr 2017, 10:19
Did anyone else think Paul Cleary's article, with expert opinion by Byron Bailey, in the Australian a load of drivel?


Really???

And;

Really???

And;

Do Rex really have more tech issues? I seem to recall some newer aircraft that have had considerable tech issues over the years, 787s and 380s have not been exactly the epitome of reliability.


Really?

And;

Really? But let's see what ATSB find.


We have all seen a few catastrophic jet engine failures. More recently the 787 and 380 have not been exactly trouble free.


I think the old SAABs/CT7s fare pretty well, and REX's maintenance is also pretty good!


Can't say I'm a fan of Byron Bailey's. Have seen him several times on TV & tend to tune him out.

DF.

AIRTAM
1st Apr 2017, 11:02
The Australian article says the Rex aircraft was 26 years old - am I correct in saying the part that failed could have been only, say 10 years old - engines hours, or age surely can be vastly different to airframe hours or age. If a new engine fails on an older airframe and an accident ensures, the airframes age surely can't be the cause of the accident?

MickG0105
1st Apr 2017, 11:22
The Australian article says the Rex aircraft was 26 years old - am I correct in saying the part that failed could have been only, say 10 years old - engines hours, or age surely can be vastly different to airframe hours or age. If a new engine fails on an older airframe and an accident ensures, the airframes age surely can't be the cause of the accident?
For starters, the accident airplane, VH-NRX, is 25 years (and one month and seven days) old; not 26 years old as claimed in the article. NRX is Saab 340B serial number 291 - its first flight was 25 February 1992 and it entered commercial service with the US regional operator, Business Express Airlines, a month later on 25 March 1992.

Paul Cleary seems to have perfected the journalistic version of the double-tap; you get two stories based on essentially the same "facts" (and I use that word advisedly) undr different headlines in rapid succession. How Rex pilots narrowly avoided disaster after plane lost propeller and Engine crisis as REX propeller dropped is just one example; he follows the same approach with stories on in-flight wi fi and Sydney Airport's CEO.

barit1
1st Apr 2017, 20:10
For starters, the accident airplane, VH-NRX, is 25 years (and one month and seven days) old; not 26 years old as claimed in the article. NRX is Saab 340B serial number 291 - its first flight was 25 February 1992 and it entered commercial service with the US regional operator, Business Express Airlines, a month later on 25 March 1992.

. . .

Merely applying fleetwide statistics: If the airline has 25% spare engines, then the average engine has 20% fewer hours than the average plane. And the average plane might operate 1500 hours per year, perhaps 38K total hours, since new. Thus 30K hrs TT for the average engine. (No great claim to accuracy here, just a feel for the possible usage.)

If the failed shaft in fact ran 30K hrs with that fault, I might expect a special inspection (ultrasonic?) on high-time hardware in the fleet. It perhaps could even be done on-wing overnight.

barit1
3rd Apr 2017, 13:57
Dot forget that parts are interchangeable as well, so the PGB may have been swapped in from a different aircraft.

True in a way, but in fact the PGB is married to the core engine in the shop, and the full powerplant is then hung in the aircraft.

And strange as it might seem, the PGB supports the core engine in space within the nacelle; consider that the major mount loads are imposed by the prop torque, which are directly reacted by the PGB connected to the nacelle. I believe this is true of many other turboprop installations as well.

ManInJapan
4th Apr 2017, 03:47
a few dings and nicks...
https://i.imgur.com/nQf8R2I.jpghttp://


I've been following this thread as best as I could, so apologies if I'm repeating someone's comment.

The flange above, which is connected to the driveshaft, is obviously the main focus of attention, so it's not surprising it was removed for safe keeping prior to prop transportation.

As for The Australian article:
The gearbox overheating and causing the gearbox to seize sounds very feasible to me. Maybe the gearbox overheated because of a lack of oil, or maybe because of a design weakness. If the SAAB gearboxes often overheat, then this would be a reasonable line of investigation to follow.

barit1
4th Apr 2017, 11:31
. . .As for The Australian article:
The gearbox overheating and causing the gearbox to seize sounds very feasible to me. Maybe the gearbox overheated because of a lack of oil, or maybe because of a design weakness. If the SAAB gearboxes often overheat, then this would be a reasonable line of investigation to follow.

Nice story and with a thread of history perhaps, except the overheat would be in the gears and bearings inside the PGB assembly, where moving parts and fixed parts are in contact, thus friction heat being generated.

Not so much in this external portion of the fan shaft, exposed full time to ambient airflow.

TBM-Legend
4th Apr 2017, 12:17
True in a way, but in fact the PGB is married to the core engine in the shop, and the full powerplant is then hung in the aircraft.


A CT-7 gearbox can be split from the engine on or off the engine on the wing or shop floor.

Byron Bailey, is this Ian Bailey??

Slippery_Pete
4th Apr 2017, 13:10
. . .As for The Australian article:
The gearbox overheating and causing the gearbox to seize sounds very feasible to me. Maybe the gearbox overheated because of a lack of oil, or maybe because of a design weakness. If the SAAB gearboxes often overheat, then this would be a reasonable line of investigation to follow.

Complete horseshit. The prop gearbox is pretty much the most reliable part of the entire CT7 power plant. His comments make it quite clear he doesn't understand which part failed, what a CSU does, or how a free power turbine works.

The only time this has ever happened in the last 30 years of SAAB operations it was the result of a metallurgical manufacturing defect in the shaft. To assume the cause is anything different at this stage is a gamble most "experts" would not be willing to take.

Oldmanemu
4th Apr 2017, 20:53
How can anyone ever take Paul Cleary seriously again. Ever.

barit1
4th Apr 2017, 21:19
A CT-7 gearbox can be split from the engine on or off the engine on the wing or shop floor.


With the right fixture, this might be true. Supporting the core engine is the issue; in the aircraft, the gearbox supports the engine, not the other way 'round.