Grey area?Chartering or is it Hour Building

[thecoltster]

Having recently gained my CPL/IR I have tried to keep my hours up and my IF skills up to scratch.
I have done numerous flights with a passenger/s who have taken an equal share of the cost. Alot of these flights have involved dropping off and picking up passengers to/from separate destinations. This situation works out really well for both myself and the pasengers that I fly, as the price that I pay the school/club from which I am hiring is dissolved between myself and the passengers. However, though I have made my passengers aware that i am not a charter company/pilot and that I have to take an equal cost of the flight I am still wary of this grey area that appears regarding flying for hire and reward. Should I be?

Such is the popularity of this convenient service that I offer, I find more and more friends/aquaintances and family wanting to use (effectively charter) me to take them to and from various destinations. Am I right to be wary of this situation or should I just be grateful that I am getting some subsidised flying both single engined and multi?
I hear that this area between flying for fun and for charter purposes is a very grey area? Any ideas?

[Field In Sight]

I am due to have my CPL/IR by spring next year and was thinking of doing exactly the same thing as you to continue to build "quality time".

The only problem that I saw with it was the fact that you are not allowed to "advertise" this "service" apart from in your flying club for other flying club members.

As for flying family and friends, does that include friends of friends?

[thecoltster]

As you say it is a great way to build quality time, I have undoubtedly had some of the most challenging as well as enjoyable flying to date.
Usually the flying is just with friends and family but occasionally friends of friends have been involved. On ALL occasions I have taken an equal share of the costs and haven't advertised or touted for business in any way. The fact is that both myself and the passengers are benefiting in our separate ways, by saving the pax a great deal of time and hassle (and sometimes money) whilst offering me quality flying time. Such is the popularity of this "service" I am begining to be approached by friends of friends who, via word of mouth are keen to use me.
Having the IR and a suitably equipped aircraft has meant very few cancellations, however days/weeks prior to each flight I have made the pax well aware that I may HAVE to cancel due weather and that it is just there tough luck as I won't take ANY risks. This consequently hasn't caused any problems or imposed any "commercial" pressures for me to fly.
Should I be wary doing this practice? As from what I have researched there doesn't seem to be any black and white regulations against it??

[eyeinthesky]

More knowledgeable people than me (BEagle/Bookworm?!) will be able to quote the regs at you but I think you should be careful.

If the people are asking you to fly from A-B because it suits them and then you come back empty, someone might argue that you are flying at their request, not yours, and this could be construed as public transport. If, as you say, your word of mouth 'advertising', whether deliberate or not, is bringing in more and more people then you could come unstuck.

How many people at a time? Remember that the maximum for cost sharing is a total of 4 including the pilot.

Is the aircraft on a private or public C. of A.? Might be relevant.

In short, I don't know whether the rules forbid it, but it sounds like you might be exceeding them. Otherwise, what would stop everybody doing it?

[thecoltster]

The aircraft is on a public transport CofA, and when I do take people I try not to make it a one way drop off, rather a trip whereby I try to go both ways with them and get involved in whatever it is that they are doing at the destination.
I have never had more than 2 pax and doubt that I would ever have as many as 4. I hadn't heard of the 4 person cost split rule so thanks for that!
To be honest i don't know why more people don't do it?
I often fly over to france and back with people and effectively join in on their weekends/trips away. The time savings are immediately obvious, friends enjoy coming with me as very few carriers other than ferries offer similar routes. It is cheap for them and I get weekends away and much cheaper hours, this in turn saves me money! Alot of my friends/family do this trip, so I often get the chance to build hours this way.
Maybe others don't have the option to do such a trip that has such obvious benefits, their friends would sooner and just a cheaply go by road rail etc?
From what i have seen I don't think I am breaking or even bending the rules, however I don't write them so I am never sure!? As I have heard from others it just seems to be a big Grey area!?

[GoneWest]

From your description of the service - my vote is that the trips are highly illegal.

[Don D Cake]

I think your are stretching the rules to the limit but I'm not sure you're breaking them. I should be very, very careful not to engage in any activity that could be construed as advertising.

Some bits from section 130 of the ANO....

(ii)

(aa) no more than 4 persons (including the pilot) are carried on such a flight;

(bb) the proportion which such contribution bears to the total direct costs of the flight shall not exceed the proportion which the number of persons carried on the flight (excluding the pilot) bears to the number of persons carried on the flight (including the pilot);

(cc) no information concerning the flight shall have been published or advertised prior to the commencement of the flight other than, in the case of an aircraft operated by a flying club, advertising wholly within the premises of such a flying club in which case all the persons carried on such a flight who are aged 18 years or over shall be members of that flying club; and

(dd) no person acting as a pilot on such a flight shall be employed as a pilot by or be a party to a contract for the provision of services as a pilot with the operator of the aircraft being flown on the flight.

For full text go to

ANO (http://www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si2000/20001562.htm)

[englishal]

There is a website containing a database of backpackers who are travelling around the USA and want to travel as cheaply as possible. Can't remember the address but I'll see if I can find it.

So long as you intend making the journey anyway, then there is nothing to stop you taking some of these people along for the ride, and they pay their way.

Bit of a grey area, but I suppose as long as you decide to go from A to B before logging on to the website, then everything is above board...just...:)

EA

[boeingbus2002]

The flying club members thing shouldnt be a problem as pax usually have to fill a form to be non-flying members with the club.

You cannot advertise outside the club. As they "are" members, you could tell them about flights etc.

Confused? I still am!:D