P8 to Waddington

[llamaman]

As this is a rumour network, anyone wish to comment?

[Davef68]

One way to lose a referendum,

[Ken Scott]

Or sensible planning in the event that the Scottish colony gains independence?

[neilf92]

I always thought it was the other way round - Scotland invited England to join them and let you share our king :)

[Tashengurt]

A shot across Sturgeon's bows?

[superplum]

I thought that all sturgeons within the UK belonged to the Queen.

:*

[charliegolf]

The Queen, though, may not want all of them!

CG

[Brian W May]

Sturgeon??? I thought it was Krankie??

[Pure Pursuit]

It's a rumour that's buzzing around waddington but, I suspect that it's based on pure speculation.

I'd love to see where they'd put it! Not a lot of room left at Waddo...

[Just This Once...]

Waddington has loads of space, even if the P-8 arrived (the original assumed basing option) Waddington would still only have a fraction of the large aircraft based there during V-Force times. Even if we ignored 5 Sqn for a moment there is still a completely undeveloped waterfront hangar (14 Sqn), loads of space around VASS and a completely undeveloped eastern side of the airfield including a golf course and direct access to an extensive explosive storage area.

[Finningley Boy]

PP,

There must be plenty of room? All them dispersals that once shored up four Vulcan Squadrons!:ok:

FB:)

[Martin the Martian]

I thought contracts had already been put in place for work at Lossie?

[MPN11]

I thought contracts had already been put in place for work at Lossie?
That proves it will be Waddington ;)

[NutLoose]

I concur with MPN11.

[Arclite01]

not to mention the relocation of the IND to Devonport and obviously the refit and maintenance of the carriers somewhere south of the border............

Arc

[Pure Pursuit]

i was thinking more of infrastructure. The messes are both rammed, JR accommodation is, frankly, woeful and the infra on station is already very busy as it's not set up for the number of sqns that are actually there. So, unless they finance annexes to the messes and SLAM the JR accom, I think Waddo would be struggling...

[Heathrow Harry]

"not to mention the relocation of the IND to Devonport and obviously the refit and maintenance of the carriers somewhere south of the border............"

You'd be lucky - there isn't space at Devonport for the Successor boats and all the infrastructre that goes with them - they were looking at Falmouth a year so so back

And if the carriers need to be dry docked there isn't much capacity left anywhere south of the border unfortunatley

[air pig]

HH

"not to mention the relocation of the IND to Devonport and obviously the refit and maintenance of the carriers somewhere south of the border............"

You'd be lucky - there isn't space at Devonport for the Successor boats and all the infrastructre that goes with them - they were looking at Falmouth a year so so back

And if the carriers need to be dry docked there isn't much capacity left anywhere south of the border unfortunatley
Heathrow Harry is online now Report Post Quick reply to this message

IND UK only enclave at Kings Bay.

[MPN11]

i was thinking more of infrastructure. The messes are both rammed, JR accommodation is, frankly, woeful and the infra on station is already very busy as it's not set up for the number of sqns that are actually there. So, unless they finance annexes to the messes and SLAM the JR accom, I think Waddo would be struggling...
I'm obviously not current (Waddington 81-83), but we coped with 4 full Vulcan squadrons and all their associated support.

I know there's now a collection of Squadrons/Units (6 badged squadrons, the Stn website says) but they're surely not on the scale of a full-blooded Cold War Vulcan squadron. Or has too much effort been expended in creating a structure to preserve number-plates, with the concomitant manning issues?

[Just This Once...]

i was thinking more of infrastructure. The messes are both rammed, JR accommodation is, frankly, woeful and the infra on station is already very busy as it's not set up for the number of sqns that are actually there. So, unless they finance annexes to the messes and SLAM the JR accom, I think Waddo would be struggling...

I'd agree that infrastructure is woeful and DIO would be first against the wall, but compared to what they rammed into Brize the folks at Waddington will have loads of space, with or without P-8.

[Herod]

I always thought it was the other way round - Scotland invited England to join them and let you share our king

Errr, I think Darien had something to do with it. Scotland wanting a bail-out.

[Martin the Martian]

MPN11 said:

That proves it will be Waddington

Yes, I should know how the MoD do things by now.

[brakedwell]

Has Ballykelly been completely trashed?

[Pontius Navigator]

BW, after being green for 50 years, I ask you.

[Tiger_mate]

P8 to Aldergrove would be a virtually cost free operation with excess of good quality infrastructure across the board. It would also send a positive political and economic message to NI of continued support from London. The economic cost to the Province of the removal of the SH Force would have been noticeable. The UK military in NI may not to to all the locals taste, but the financial input into the community cannot be overlooked.

[Just This Once...]

I'm sure the Irish Government & Neutrality was not far from your thoughts either....

[Biggus]

How long before somebody mentions St Mawgan?

Oh, I just did!

[brakedwell]

or St Eval :ok:

[Green Flash]

Or Machrihanish. Or HMS Gannet. West Freugh, even.

[Green Flash]

Although maybe not Stornoway :)

[brakedwell]

Scotland will be entitled to two or three of the nine P8's on order when the UK becomes Little Britain, so money being spent on Lossiemouth won't be wasted after all :E

[JAVELINBOY]

Any reasons why Fairford couldn't be used must be plenty of room there or is it reserved for the USA?

[Biggus]

Brakedwell - one actually.

[superplum]

Mildenhall is only 70 miles away!
:)

[Martin the Martian]

Trebelzue, anyone?

[NutLoose]

St Athans has some nice hangars.

[engineer(retard)]

10% of 9 isn't 2 or 3 :E

[VX275]

Boeing are to set up a UK base to support the Chinooks and Apaches so why not the P8 as well? Boscombe Down it is then

[Yellow Sun]

IIRC one of the early proposals was to locate the Nimrod fleet at Gaydon. Maybe it's time has come again?

YS

[GeeRam]

IIRC one of the early proposals was to locate the Nimrod fleet at Gaydon. Maybe it's time has come again?


Err........:confused:

[RedhillPhil]

IIRC one of the early proposals was to locate the Nimrod fleet at Gaydon. Maybe it's time has come again?

YS


That's fantastic. Base your maritime fleet about as far away from the briny as you can get.

[Lima Juliet]

RedhillPhil

Or equidistant to all coasts depending on how you view it? Anyway Gaydon is full of Aston Martins but Upper Heyford or Abingdon are free...

LJ

[Yellow Sun]

That's fantastic. Base your maritime fleet about as far away from the briny as you can get.

Just in case you hadn't noticed, they fly not float. The Nimrod fleet went to St Mawgan and Kinloss because that was where the real estate was at the time. The attraction of Gaydon was that it was in effect "green field" (long before that phrase was invented); the only permanent buildings were Air Traffic and the Command Power Plant Bay. Although the transit times to task areas were longer, the specified on task duration would still have been achievable. The cost saving in logistics from having a single central location were significant. In the end other factors prevailed and the Nimrod went to the extremities of the UK. Not forgetting of course that the Kinloss NDBs were stored at Macrahanish; but that's another story.

Let's face it, the P8 isn't going to be doing Stage 2 in D001 or the Moray Firth and the training regime will be considerably different from that on the Nimrod; MR1 or 2. Neither will it be sitting on a barrier somewhere south of the gaps waiting for a Yankee in transit to the the Westlant box. I don't know what the P8 profiles or operational concepts will be, but I am certain that they will be very different from those of the Nimrod. They won't be updating the Malin Head AGI in the transit either.

I operated the Nimrod from the North Pole to the South Pacific and most places in between. That would have been achieved from the centre of the country equally as well as from St Mawgan or Kinloss. My mention of Gaydon as a specific location was tongue in cheek, but I would challenge the necessity of the P8 having to be parked next to the sea; North or South.

YS

[Sideshow Bob]

IIRC one of the early proposals was to locate the Nimrod fleet at Gaydon. Maybe it's time has come again?

YS

At least 201 Sqn would feel right at home there, it's got the right name :)

[camelspyyder]

And with that comment, I guess we should start up the number plate argument again. I only have tours on 42TB 120 and 206 behind me but can see how 201 has a claim as the senior number. Has the Poseidon squadron number been announced yet?

[JAVELINBOY]

How about asking the Army to hand Brawdy back?

[camelspyyder]

Oh yeah. Like manning the P8 isn't going to be difficult verging on impossible already."...by the way you'll have to live in Haverford West"
"Oh I'm sorry, I seem to have a call from Conoco on the other line...Good day"

[pr00ne]

Brawdy is closing and the Army moving out.

[chopper2004]

IIRC one of the early proposals was to locate the Nimrod fleet at Gaydon. Maybe it's time has come again?

YS

Mate of a mate is working for one of the vehicle manufactuers on Gaydon nice test track they have there......:ok:

[pmills575]

Boeing are just about to build a large hanger for servicing the Dreamliner at Gatwick, perhaps they could tag the P8 onto that scheme. Handy for the channel, North sea and the Atlantic. No need for all those uniformed, expensive techies......

[Arclite01]

If you want to be in the south............
Manston ?
St Mawgan ?
Lydd ??

if you want to be in the north.............
Blackpool ?
Humberside ??

None of those are busy.

If you want a military site

Mildenhall will be empty soon.................
Wattisham might be as well ??
Leeming isn't busy...............

Just some thoughts

Arc

[charliegolf]

Oh yeah. Like manning the P8 isn't going to be difficult verging on impossible already."...by the way you'll have to live in Haverford West"
"Oh I'm sorry, I seem to have a call from Conoco on the other line...Good day"

Assumes that the P8 is going to be exclusively manned by serving personnel, none of whom want to go west. Is that the current state of affairs? New entrants will know at the outset whre they're likely headed. They're clever people, you know, top 2% an' all that jazz.

PS, road to God's country (Port Talbot) is much better these days; and better than 8 hours to the Chunnel!

[Pontius Navigator]

1. Finningley?

2. CG, unless things have changed, New entrants go where the system thinks they are suited. IMHO there were more Scots at ISK than Welsh, but most aircrew were English, so getting locally employed support staff would not be impossible but aircrew would be something else.

At least today you are unlikely to have the Newquay B&B owners bitching about serving at Kinloss.

[Martin the Martian]

Can't be Leeming. That must be earmarked for Lossie's Typhoons when Scotland goes indy.

[Onceapilot]

Can't be Leeming. That must be earmarked for Lossie's Typhoons when Scotland goes indy.

It certainly could be Leeming. I see little problem with co-locating those types. These days, the base security measures and protection costs are far better covering multiple assets at one location. As far as operating frontline large-ish aircraft from a civvi base... you might as well forget security and, the cost of all the support infrastructure would be sky-high. Maybe, if Scotland casts off, further development of Leeming would be a no-brainer? It would seem wise that a runway/airfield upgrade to be able to operate all RAF types there would provide some real bonuses in various ways. The Army would certainly appreciate some trooping capability from/to Leeming. :)

OAP

[Pontius Navigator]

OAP, surely a civil airport has better security? At an airfield near me there were holes in the wire and the runway ends are practically open. Back in the day Prestwich offered secure parking.

[Sideshow Bob]

but most aircrew were English, so getting locally employed support staff would not be impossible but aircrew would be something else

Except for the fact that most of the aircrew you need to attract back in currently live in Burghead/Lossiemouth/Forres/Elgin and the surrounding area.

[Pontius Navigator]

SB, do they want back in? Or are you implying that they remain domiciled there but are employed to the south?

Mind you, that never stopped the FJ sqns shuffling up and down the country although I bet a fair few emulated the SHAR aircrews who voted with their feet on a move to Cottesmore.

[Arclite01]

I find the crew aspect odd.

It's a mobile service, mobile role with mobile assets - why do people think they will be permanently based in one location ??

I was always reckoning on being posted every 3 years...............it went with the territory (and the paycheck).

Even nowadays in a civilian job I fully expect to be mobile and to go where the work is.

Manning will be an issue. But it shouldn't be................


Arc

[Onceapilot]

OAP, surely a civil airport has better security? At an airfield near me there were holes in the wire and the runway ends are practically open. Back in the day Prestwich offered secure parking.

Pontious, With the greatest respect, we are not "back in the day".:ooh: Assets such as squadrons of Typhoon and P8 will have pretty good security these days. Yes, large Civvi airfields have reasonable security against background criminality but, the levels of security required for a permanent operational Military airfield are considerable and expensive. ;)

OAP

[Sandy Parts]

Arc - fair enough if you are happy with that mobility. However, the RAF seems to view 'permanent basing' as a necessary step for the future. I'd like to think based on thinking about the welfare of the personnel and therefore increasing their retention. Cynically, I'd say it was far more influenced by selling off housing (buy local if staying local) and reducing the number of stations overall...

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

further development of Leeming would be a no-brainer? It would seem wise that a runway/airfield upgrade to be able to operate all RAF types


Move the runway to an orientation that suits the prevailing wind? Or can the P-8 cope with big crosswinds?

[Pontius Navigator]

OAP, the point I clearly failed to make was that the military airfield today has noticeable perimeter security weaknesses, especially when compared with a minor civilian airfield 50 years ago.

Additional security for assets operating inside an already secure civilian airfield should not be more expensive than a military airfield on its own.

[trim it out]

OAP, the point I clearly failed to make was that the military airfield today has noticeable perimeter security weaknesses, especially when compared with a minor civilian airfield 50 years ago.

An excellent example of such being Cranwell.

[terry holloway]

The RAF, an organisation independent of PPrune, appear to have selected Lossie already according to an interview in the Specialist Aviation Press!

[Pontius Navigator]

Terry, we know that, see earlier comments about infra work. What you see here is the work of experienced sceptics well versed in the way of infrastructure works preceding closure and transfer to the Army and with a political mix including the wee Scot.

The life blood of pprune

[Davef68]

An excellent example of such being Cranwell.

As indeed is Lossiemouth

[Guernsey Girl II]

The RAF, an organisation independent of PPrune, appear to have selected Lossie already according to an interview in the Specialist Aviation Press!

Terry, 'call me Dave' selected Lossie the weekend before SDSR15 as a political move. It came as news to the RAF and Boeing who were planning on Waddington.

[Onceapilot]

Pontious, The point you are missing entirely is, that no one who knows much about security is going to say much on here! :rolleyes: If you, or anyone else, has security information or concerns I suggest you contact the Police, or your MP!
My general point is that a certain amount of concentration of assets can have benefits in the economy of scale in infrastructure and facilities. Of course, that can be taken to extremes but, the expansion of Leeming as the RAF Northern Base after Scotland leaves the Union, would make a lot of sense.:)

OAP

[Pontius Navigator]

OAP, indeed. Having drawn the RAFP attention to the hole nothing was done as the risk was 'low' and more importantly there was no money.

At my own unit where I had different priorities I was able to get several security enhancements. It just seems that civil airport security attracts more media attention so they are more proactive plugging holes, and of course the threat of intrusion, while different, is higher.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

An excellent example of such being Cranwell.



As indeed is Lossiemouth


In the interests of equal opportunities for all parts of the Union, I would add Valley to that list - even when the second in line to the throne worked there! Can anyone think of any airfields in Ulster?

[bluetail]

I seem to remember they tried to operate P8s out of Leeming a few years ago as part of a Joint Warrior but the ramps (or runway) wasn't able to take the weight of one, and they ended up operating out of Teeside/Durham.

[NutLoose]

Bruggen?? :E

[Martin the Martian]

OAP, surely a civil airport has better security? At an airfield near me there were holes in the wire and the runway ends are practically open. Back in the day Prestwich offered secure parking.

There does appear to be a lot more overt security around the perimeter of Newquay Cornwall Airport, including very tall f*** off fencing, than in the days when the same establishment went under the name of RAF St. Mawgan and had US Marines loitering around the bomb dump menacingly.

I appreciate the key word is 'overt', but even so...

[Cyberhacker]

At the risk of bringing some cold-hard logic to this fest:
Can't be Leeming. That must be earmarked for Lossie's Typhoons when Scotland goes indy.
If/when Wee Jimmy gets her way, presumably (as part of the division of assets) some Tiffies will stay with Scotland?

[Guernsey Girl II]

At the risk of bringing some cold-hard logic to this fest:

If/when Wee Jimmy gets her way, presumably (as part of the division of assets) some Tiffies will stay with Scotland?

Maybe not:

SNP to update defence policy (From HeraldScotland) (http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15165581.SNP_to_update_defence_policy/)

[Tay Cough]

Move the runway to an orientation that suits the prevailing wind? Or can the P-8 cope with big crosswinds?

No mil experience but there's quite a popular civvy version ;) which I have a lot of thousands of hours in and I've never been crosswind restricted in Western Europe. Max demonstrated XWC is 35kts+ depending on version. The rudder is very effective (arguably a bit too effective on the early short body ones).

I appreciate with all the bits and bobs hanging off a P-8, the answer maybe slightly different but it won't be by much.

[betty swallox]

28kts crosswind limit.

[Tay Cough]

In fairness, that's a bit more than I thought.

[chopper2004]

Might as well head to the Northern Lights :ok::mad:

us-navy-talks-use-icelands-keflavik-air-base-again (http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/2016/02/18/us-navy-talks-use-icelands-keflavik-air-base-again/80561786/)

cheers

[Sandy Parts]

woohoo - long nights in the BrassNut and BurnsSuppers staggering through snowstorms tied together by extension cable while leathered and wearing kilts! happy days

[PeterGee]

Seems we have bought a couple, delivery in 2019. https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/boeing-receives-22bn-deal-for-17-p-8as-435845/

[M609]

Norway signs contract for 5 P-8A (http://navaltoday.com/2017/03/30/norway-signs-contract-for-five-p-8a-poseidon-maritime-patrol-aircraft/)

All 5 to be delivered by end of 2022. Based at Evenes/ENEV. Current base at Andøya to shut with the phase out of the P-3C/N.

[Arclite01]

Interesting how more and more countries are suddenly seeing a need for the P8. Obviously shows years and years of under-investment (under-appreciation ?)in MPA. UK not the only ones at fault here then..........

List now includes:

India
Norway
USA
UK
Australia

and potentially Italy, New Zealand and Canada.

Amazed that these 'Maritime Nations' have got themselves into this situation. and the impact will be a long waiting list for the P8..............

Scandalous..........

Arc

[ORAC]

Interesting how more and more countries are suddenly seeing a need for the P8.

Russia adds 'Kazan' to its nuclear attack submarine fleet (http://www.defensenews.com/articles/russia-adds-kazan-to-its-nuclear-attack-submarine-fleet)

Russia?s submarine patrols reach levels last seen during Cold War | The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-submarines-patrols-highest-levels-cold-war-attack-putin-fleet-a7664841.html)

Next Big Future: China has built a nuclear submarine mass production superfactory (http://www.nextbigfuture.com/2017/04/china-has-built-nuclear-submarine-mass.html?m=1)

[Sandy Parts]

Arc - not to mention all those operating the P3 and needing an update at some point...Maybe even the French will abandon the Atlantique?

[OFBSLF]

Interesting how more and more countries are suddenly seeing a need for the P8.

For quite a few years, the Russian Navy was mostly tied up at port. Now their subs are back patrolling.

[GlobalNav]

Russia launches its fleet's 'most deadly EVER nuclear attack submarine' which can strike targets 1,500 miles away - Mirror Online (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/russia-launches-most-dangerous-nuclear-10159314)

[ICM]

MOD Confirmation that we're getting the first two - on Twitter, today's favoured News channel:

https://twitter.com/defencehq/status/850060656766222337

[Davef68]

Interesting how more and more countries are suddenly seeing a need for the P8. Obviously shows years and years of under-investment (under-appreciation ?)in MPA. UK not the only ones at fault here then..........

List now includes:

India
Norway
USA
UK
Australia

and potentially Italy, New Zealand and Canada.

Amazed that these 'Maritime Nations' have got themselves into this situation. and the impact will be a long waiting list for the P8..............


To be fair, of those, only the UK abandoned it's MPA capability - the others are merely updating their capability.

Germany and South Korea are updating their P-3s to meet the same issues

[kiwi grey]

Interesting how more and more countries are suddenly seeing a need for the P8. Obviously shows years and years of under-investment (under-appreciation?) in MPA. UK not the only ones at fault here then..........

List now includes:

India
Norway
USA
UK
Australia

and potentially Italy, New Zealand and Canada.

Amazed that these 'Maritime Nations' have got themselves into this situation. and the impact will be a long waiting list for the P8..............

Scandalous..........

Arc

The RNZAF P3-K2 is a pretty capable platform and will be good for probably another decade, so no 'situation' here in The Land Of The Long White Cloud.

When the P3-K2 needs replacing, I hear that the Kawasaki P-1 is being looked at with considerable interest, it is supposedly much cheaper than the P8.
It may also be more suited to the RNZAF's role which has a great deal more low-level HADR & SAR (i.e. ISR) work than the USN's CONOPS (mostly ASW) for the P8.

[ORAC]

New Zealand buying 4 x P-8A

New Zealand ? P-8A Aircraft and Associated Support | The Official Home of the Defense Security Cooperation Agency (http://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/new-zealand-p-8a-aircraft-and-associated-support)

Whilst UK buy is in danger.....

Military is fighting ‘£20bn cash crisis’ (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/military-is-fighting-20bn-cash-crisis-rnv9mb9mp)

The core plan for Britain’s armed forces will be revised after the election because of a funding crisis, The Times can reveal. The unravelling of the 2015 defence review is a blow for Sir Michael Fallon, the defence secretary. Sources questioned whether he could remain in post after an anticipated Conservative election victory in June given the problems that he has presided over at the Ministry of Defence (MoD). They include:.......

A £1.8 billion programme to buy a fleet of Apache helicopters and a £3 billion plan to buy and support nine maritime patrol aircraft from the United States are under threat. Both projects could be slowed down or reduced........

[Roland Pulfrew]

Military is fighting ‘£20bn cash crisis’


That's what happens when you decided to plan your future buy based upon making financial "savings" over the 10-year plan. What really happens is you cannot get anywhere near the assumed level of savings, because there are always more ops to do and if you aren't on ops you need to train for ops. You could stop the training but then what else is there to do? If you don't train you have no op capability and a lot of very bored people.

You could of course hit the T&S budgets again, but that saves peanuts, or you could bring in great ideas like PAYD and FAM which all make people (our most important asset) even less valued than they already are (great summation of the SFA fiasco in the Gruaniad (https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/apr/25/mod-privatise-military-housing-disaster-guy-hands) recently - well worth a read)

Just like most government departments, all the low and medium hanging fruit has already been saved in Defence, which leaves just cuts to capability. Oh and we tried that once, with an entire FJ fleet and the MPA force, and that's worked really well. :ugh:

[davejb]

Well it's a good job we mothballed the Nimrod 2000 then isn't it...

[typerated]

More like shame we wasted lots of money and time on a poor idea.

[glad rag]

More like shame we wasted lots of money and time on a poor idea.

Yeah those flat-tops and F35b are no longer required due to the PMs stated move away from expeditionary warfare. BIN THEM!

[betty swallox]

New Zealand Requests $1.5 Billion In P-8A Aircraft - Defense Daily Network (http://www.defensedaily.com/new-zealand-requests-1-46-billion-p-8a-aircraft/)

[MSOCS]

Glad Rag, I think anyone who believes the UK intends to sit at home with a military, only willing to participate in a conflict of national survival, is delusional.

Inferring a future defence policy from a glib statement of pre-election rhetoric is also a bit daft. Does she want to appeal to voters fed up with us engaging in far-flung lands for little gain but much drain? Either way, if the way of leading in the world is to be ready to be a force for good, or keep the wolf from the door, you need an expeditionary capability.

Still, another SDSr (small "r") is in the pipeline by all accounts. Should be interesting.

[Onceapilot]

Sorry MSOCS, I suspect you have been reading too much official MOD blurb! It is obvious that the UK is in for a long period of belt tightening and, UKMil is not able to support the depth of capability (cost) needed for exped Ops that the QE boats are designed for. The P8 capability represents a much greater need than a couple of floating targets and, it would be a travesty of logic to cancel the P8 in favour of those boats! Too late for the RN now. They should have fought harder for a decent capability in medium size warships. :oh:
Standby for some procurement fireworks over the next few years.:uhoh:

OAP

[MSOCS]

Fair cop OAP, but there's a fair bit of personal opinion in my prediction. The carriers will likely end up driving Defence for the next 50 years. The view that "build them, and the government will be embarrassed into funding the optional extras" isn't going to pass muster when funding such might leave the other Services with more redundancies or loss of vital capabilities for land and air warfare.

A direction change could be in the offing, perhaps.

[Arclite01]

No way the carriers will go. They have been given 'those' names for a reason. I think like MSOCS that they will form the central focus of Defence visibility for the next 50 years.

How much they are used and what for, what equipment they eventually have, and whether they are really required is another, different question of course.

My preference would have been 3 medium sized, multi-role...........

Arc