BRAL/Brymon/Cityflyer future as 'training airlines'

[foghorn]

With Big Airways absorbing Brymon and Cityflyer, and making overtures to buy BRAL, possibly with merged seniority lists, does anyone have any ideas or opinions on how it is going to affect the status of these airlines as being 'training airlines', where self-sponsored folks can get their first airline job.

I hope that we are not going to see BA cadets filling all the turboprop right hand seats as a part of their training, thus closing a door to the airlines much used by self-abusers, ahem, self-improvers like myself.

[This message has been edited by foghorn (edited 16 January 2001).]

[Flying Spider]

Foghorn - that is a good question! I have started to ask myself the same thing, but who knows what will happen. If it transpires in the future that we will be deprived from applying directly to CF, BRAL and Brymon then that is probably bad news not just for self-improvers but also for self-sponsored integrated students as well. Brymon and the others are not just being used as training airlines, following the addition of regional jets many a pilot could quite possibly see out his/her career with them.

I think we will just have to sit tight and wait to see what finally happens. However, it's another concern to add to the long list we self-sponsored already have! http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif

[foghorn]

The worst case scenario is the one you point out, that direct entry to CF/Brymon/BRAL is stopped and integrated with the usual BA channels.

The question then would be how would BA fill vacant seats in the three absorbed airlines. They could put their cadets in, as mentioned above, but unless the CEP scheme is increased, that would not fill all the RH seats, and those people would probably go into turboprop RHS initially. That leaves the issue of Turboprop LHS and both seats of RJ's. They could fill them from the DEP pool, but would your average BA DEP pool candidate who I guess has several thousand hours jet time really accept a TP command or an RJ right hand seat just to get into BA? I guess that they would have to modify the DEP scheme somehow, but with a single seniority list that might be difficult. It's a tricky one.

[Canard]

If the mergers go ahead BA will have more seats to fill but most of them will already have a warm bum on them. CFE/Brymon/BRAL are currently fully staffed and unless BA take the planes but not the pilots nothing will change. If BA do take the planes but not the pilots the job market will be flooded with well qualified people looking for work. It's true that in the long run BA would need more CEPs and DEPs because it would have more planes, however this is not much consolation to the self funded looking for their first break. Whatever happens in the future if the mergers go ahead it will, almost certainly, make getting that first job difficult for the self funded.

[RVR800]

It could adversely affect seniority of
staff currently engaged as well in these
airlines

Captains may have to revert to RHS if there
is a requirement to transfer to new types

This is a major HR issue

[foghorn]

I gave this some serious thought in 'beer glass philosopher' mode last night :)

If BA aren't planning to seriously downsize their comibined fleet (over what they have already announced), I would expect most if not all crew to keep their jobs in the merged franchises. I'm not sure exactly what BA's business plans are, but I guess that the real savings will come from the removal of duplicate personnel on the ops and support side, plus some from the absorbtion of the lower cost working practice of the franchises into mainline ops ('synergies' in M&A speak).

Either way, the BA fleet will expand as they absorb the franchises' aircraft. A bigger fleet will mean more vacancies due to natural crew wasteage, which will require an increased DEP intake to fill the vacancies, maybe with an increased CEP intake as well.

Which brings me back to the question I posed above of whether your average BA DEP 'pool' pilot with several thousand jet hours and their heart set on a medium or large jet job would be interested in an RJ RHS or TP job, as a foot on the ladder to get into BA. I think in most cases these DEP pilots would not be happy with this.

Possibly BA could run a two-tier DEP scheme, taking on people with lower hours with the expectation that these people would be going to the TP's/RJ's and the higher-houred DEP's would go to the bigger aircraft. This is possible.

Now, let's assume that the CEP is not increased for cost requirements, which is a likely scenario, the DEP scheme isn't changed to allow the lower-houred, and BA CEP's are posted to the TP's or RJ's initially. This would create more vacancies for DEP's onto the larger machines as less CEP's would be coming through the system into larger jet RH seats. This will increase the already pronounced shortage of mid-hours type-rated jet crew (the true 'pilot shortage'), which could cause the charters and low-cost mob to have to take lower-hour people straight to the RHS in their jets to replace losses to the BA DEP. This could be a good thing. Factor into this the effects of the BA retirement bulge, and the effect could be even larger.

Overall any move that does not decrease the number of aircraft flying for British airlines must be a good thing, since there will still be similar number of vacancies at the bottom of the career ladder. The airlines and aircraft may change, but the jobs will still be there. And as long as the airlines respond to this by keeping sensible experience requirements rather than massively upping salaries which will suck in more overseas pilots, I don't think that us self-improvers have too much to worry about.


[This message has been edited by foghorn (edited 17 January 2001).]

[Mister Geezer]

This is an interesting topic.

I recall reading one post which was made by a fairly recent recruit to BA, he was a DEP. He said that he would not be pleased if someone from a different airline managed to join the BA seniority list without going through the full BA selection procedure etc etc. In otherwords I suppose he is saying how come they get the easy route into BA.

BA do propose to fully merge CFE and BA EOG. CFE will also move to the North Terminal in 2002 (IMO which is long overdue anyway). LGW is obviously not going to play the same role as it has done so in the past. Long haul movements will be cut dramatically and with short haul movements remaining the same, part of the current EOG fleet will be cut with better aircraft utilisation being planned. It is sorry to see that many jobs with BA (on the ground I presume) will be cut, however Rod Eddington seems to be making some difference due to average load factors hitting figures that show big improvements during the summer of last year. The replacement of 777s for 744s on many routes, will undoubtedly improve profitability on many routes.

With all these proposals for merging Turboprops into the fleet, I remember the time a few years ago when BA used its own ATPs and before that the Bae748, on regional routes.

BRAL on the other hand is a more difficult case. Since BRAL is still a quarter owned by Sir Michael Bishop (BD Chairman), I feel that might prove to be a little bit of an obstacle. IMHO anyway, I am sure that some of you will disagree with me on that one.

The time ahead will be very interesting as we see as everything unfolds.

MG

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...For Radar identification, throw your your jumpseat rider out of the window...

[This message has been edited by Mister Geezer (edited 17 January 2001).]

[Flying Spider]

Foghorn - if your philosophical projection comes true I think you are correct in stating we have little to worry about! However, I have heard rumours that BA may not want to retain any turboprops as part of a regional fleet. Despite this possibility, providing they are replaced with an equivalent/greater number of RJs then their DEP requirement will remain constant at least. However, this may affect the two tier DEP scheme you mooted in your last post. There could conceivably be only one DEP scheme post merger! As I said before we will have to wait to see what happens!

[alvinsmate]

As a FO at one of the above franchises, or to be more accurate subsidaries, I can let you all sleep well tonight.
CFE and Brymons are swallowed by BA already and have been for many months now. Both are still recruiting and there is no current procedure for Brymon or CFE pilots to progress into BA. Therefore CEP pilots into BA will go onto most commonly the 737.
Brymon is in deep discussions with BRAL on a possible merger, with Brymon taking Mr Bishops share of BRAL, with BAs backing. As BA are the parent company of Brymon and CFE, it is likely that all that will happen is the management will be restructured, enabling management to downsize and work together rather than be split.
The problem for BALPA to sort out is that of the seniority within the companies. As one post suggested, a Base Capt. for CFE could not be expected to go RHS on whatever as a result. This is going to get confusing !!!!
However, I can reassure all of you that BA has asked all franchises and subsids to get together and team up a little more, resulting in a less complicated fleet for example. At present I think the subsids have just about every turbo-prop going from Jetstream 31s- up to Dash 8 300s and ATR 72s. They have EMB 145s and Avro RJs and CRJs and 737s A319s.
What would be more likely is for subsuds to go all jet over the next 5-10 years and to decide on one regional jet type.

This is good news for everybody involved, and also promising that BA want to get involved in Domestic Regional carriers, which will mean more jobs for everyone in the future.