UK Criminal record (Nearly spent)

[Neolamprologus]

Hi All,

I am working through my flight training at the moment with a view to obtaining a frozen ATPL.

I am fully aware of the Rehabilitaiton of offenders act and how this all works in the UK. By the time I finish my training and Im job hunting my conviction (ABH - 100 Hours community service) will be spent. I also have two other offences for assault when I was a teenager, they were just common assault and dealt with by a fine only and have been spent for some time.

My question is this:

I am single with no familly (32) and more than willing to basically move anywhere in the world for my first job. However, Im struggling to understand how my criminal convictions (once the last one is spent) will fare for applying to jobs abroad? I see jobs in other EU countries for low hours frozen ATPL pilots, singapore, UAE, etc etc...

Does anyone have any experience of this type of thing for countries OTHER than the UK? I dont want to limit myself to applying to jobs in the UK only but it seems like the UK might be the only place I would be employable? Does anyone have any thoughts or info on this?

I know outwith basic disclosures (all thats required for pilot in the UK, shows ONLY unspent convictions), there is such a thing as a police certificate (which I believe shows everything forever?) and also a subject disclosure request (another type of police certificate that shows everything too). Do foreign airlines ask for the Basic disclosure and accept this or would it be the police certificates only?

Also, same question goes for VISAS. Seems like UAE dont even ask about criminal records for VISAS?

Basically, Im looking for some advice on how I could go about applying for overseas low hours jobs and managed to be successful considering I at the time of applying will have 3 spent convictions, 2 old and one 3 years old.

All help greatly appreciated!

[KingAirJimmy]

I knew a guy that was in the same boat.. I suggest that you look into your paperwork and see exactly what is disclosed, as unfortunately some airlines state no previous convictions, and that means just about any previous conviction you might have had.
Especially for some middle east airlines, even previous traffic fines can be an issue.

I hope you get sorted tho and its nothing too serious.

[Neolamprologus]

Thanks for your response. And how did this guy you know get on?

I've been doing some further reading tonight. It seems like if for example I was to apply to Susi air in Indonesia, I would need a work pass/visa which would need this Police certificate. This probably would be ok as Assault/ABH probably wouldnt rule me out from a Visa/Eligibility to work in the country point of view.

What I cant seem to figure out is, as a UK citizen, what are overseas employers going to ask me for as proof of criminal history. A basic disclosure? If so, then all is well as my convictions will be spent. I dont see how they could ask for an Enhanced disclosure as being a Pilot isnt a regulated activity.

Also, the Police certificate (by ACRO) is listed as for use with Embassys for the purposes of VISA applications only - not for potential employers.

Is there anyone on here who is a UK citizen that has provided a basic disclosure for an overseas employer before or just has knowledge on this subject? My conviction of ABH is a disqualifying conviction for an airside pass in the UK. This however isnt an issue as my conviction will be spent here soon. Im worried about a potential overseas employer asking for a police certificate as a way of showing criminal history (rather than a DBS Basic disclosure) and this being turned away from jobs. Does anyone know if overseas employers accept basic disclosures?

Thanks in advance!

[KingAirJimmy]

Basically if you get the basic disclosure then spent convictions will not show up as they are minor and of less importance and nobody will know about it.

Unless you have something that cannot be spent, that I guess you are a no go.

[Neolamprologus]

Hi mate. Yes I'm aware of that about basic disclosures. My question is, do foreign companies accept the basic disclosure as a criminal record check? The police certificate according to the acro website is for VISA applications only and not to be used for employment purposes. If I used that it would show all my convictions.

Does anyone know if foreign employers accept the basic disclosure?

[Bloated Stomach]

Do us all a favour and keep away from Aviation. If you had one previous conviction of assault and you seriously learnt your lesson and changed your ways, you'd be welcome into aviation. You have a few convictions and therefore haven't learnt your lesson. Please stay away from aviation.

[Neolamprologus]

How is me staying away from aviation doing everyone a favour? How very judgemental of you.

I wouldn't have thought getting into a couple of scuffles in my life made me public enemy number one, nor made me any less trust worthy or capable of working in aviation, be it a solo pilot or an airline pilot.

I am just trying to figure out if legally I can work abroad. As far as the UK is concerned, my convictions will be spent and I am no better nor worse than anyone else once my convictions become spent and that's the way I and anyone else should be treated. The types of Convictions which seriously do bring into question ones character simply do not become spent at all, or if they do the rehabilitation period is very long. Both my offences were very minor and as such have short rehabilitation periods....

If anyone out there with a spent coviction has applied for jobs outside of the Uk, knows someone who has or just us knowledge on the matter that id really like to hear from you.

The only other thing I can think of doing is calling up some overseas airlines and asking them what they would need for a criminal record check from a UK citizen. I wonder if they would tell me.

Thanks in advance all help appreciated.

[blind pew]

Bit harsh bloated as you know nothing about it.
My father went to prison for a year when I was a kid...bent fraud squad whom he refused to pay off because he wasn't guilty.
Similarly had a posh, hard working mate who did a citizens arrest of a drug dealer who used his car as a battering ram. Ended up with an ABH conviction as the CPS and the bill fiddled the trial.
The dealer had similar form but was a grass for the bill...although in france there are areas where the gendarmes are working with the drug dealing scum.

[Neolamprologus]

Yeah I dont want to drift off topic. Im a nice person, getting into a few scuffles doesnt make me any less trust worthy or capable of working in the aviation industry in any capacity.

Just wondering if anyone has had to provide a UK criminal record check to an overseas employers that could give me some information on what was asked for and how the process went please?

Thanks in advance!

[appleACE]

My overseas employer accepted a Basic Disclosure, I didn't even realise there options other than the Basic Disclosure and I don't think they did either.

I forget the exact wording they used but I think they asked for a 'Criminal record check' and were fine with the Basic Disclosure. I got the feeling it was something of a box ticking exercise.

It may vary though especially when it comes to getting a visa because the embassy may be more familiar with the UK system than the employer.

[Neolamprologus]

appleACE, thanks very much for your input. What country is your overseas employer from if you dont mind me asking?

For VISA purposes Im almost certain some countries will need a Police certificate. Which isnt too much of an issue I dont think as being granted a VISA with a criminal history (police certificate shows all convictions, none of them go spent) isnt a deal breaker. It does have me wondering though, is an Overseas employer involved in the applicants process to get a VISA in any way shape or form? Or is that something you do completely separate from your employer?

[appleACE]

In my case my employer handled the visa issue I just had to make the initial application at the embassy. They hire a lot of expat pilots so they have a system set up for doing it all, which was very convenient.

[PA28161]

If you've got any sort of criminal record, whether convictions are spent or otherwise I doubt very much if any UK or major overseas airline will employ you. You will be seen as a security risk when you apply to get an airside pass.

[YOP]

From the government website:

The rules as to when a conviction or caution will be filtered are set out in legislation. This states that a certificate must include the following:


cautions relating to an offence from a list agreed by Parliament (see below)
cautions given less than 6 years ago (where individual 18 or over at the time of caution)
cautions given less than 2 years ago (where individual under 18 at the time of caution)
convictions relating to an offence from a prescribed list (see below)
where the individual has more than one conviction offence all convictions will be included on the certificate (no conviction will be filtered)
convictions that resulted in a custodial sentence (regardless of whether served)
convictions which did not result in a custodial sentence, given less than 11 years ago (where individual 18 or over at the time of conviction)
convictions which did not result in a custodial sentence, given less than 5.5 years ago (where individual under 18 at the time of conviction)

Assault occasioning ABH will never be filtered from a DBS check so even if it's spent it will still show. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/dbs-list-of-offences-that-will-never-be-filtered-from-a-criminal-record-check Therefore whilst you have no obligation to tell your potential employer about a spent conviction as the ABH isn't filtered they will see it even on a basic disclosure.

Also from the government website:For those 18 or over at the time of the offence

An adult conviction will be removed from a DBS certificate if:


11 years have elapsed since the date of conviction; and
it is the person’s only offence, and
it did not result in a custodial sentence

Even then, it will only be removed if it does not appear on the list of offences which will never be filtered from a certificate (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/dbs-list-of-offences-that-will-never-be-filtered-from-a-criminal-record-check). If a person has more than one offence, then details of all their convictions will always be included.

If you were under 18 at the time then the removal time would be 5.5 years as long as you don't have more than one conviction.

Not sure if that's what you wanted to hear unfortunately.

[Neolamprologus]

Hi mate. Not sure why you have copy and pasted all that information regarding DBS checks? It's a basic disclosure that is done for an airside pass not a standard or enhanced check (Dbs type checks)

Thanks though anyway ...

[Sygyzy]

Neo, Even though you're in denial I think Yop was trying to point out, letter by letter, that thanks to your previous conduct you are going to be pushing string uphill for a long time trying to get any sort of security clearance in aviation.

Every time you're sitting in a classroom/briefing/interview and someone who you're not expecting comes in and has a private word with the instructor/invigilator/training captain you'll be bricking it just in case you've been 'found out' and these are your last minutes in aviation. What about someone who knew you in a previous life, wonders how you reached where you are and starts making checks and informing management. Not everyone is of a generous nature.

You might be able to circumvent the employee checks and pass the interview for a job, but then there'll be the checks for your airside pass(es) [as mentioned] at your base and possibly elsewhere. Knowing/hoping that this or that won't show up and if it does it'll be career ending will give you much more than a stress headache. Remember too that if it goes tits up once, you will have that record following you around in the future and your name will be known. Aviation, country by country is a small business. People know each other even worldwide - you'll be forever looking over your shoulder.

Sorry to say this but I think it's time to fold your tent and accept the inevitable - actions have consequences - and a career in a very security conscious business (and this goes for other than aviation) probably isn't for you.:(

[Bealzebub]

You will usually be asked if you have the right to unrestricted world wide travel. You will require visas for travel as crew to many countries including the USA. That might prove problematic as many of these countries require a full disclosure of all arrests, charges or convictions even if (in the case of the first two) a conviction didn't result.

The Rehabilitation of Offenders Act does not apply to US visa law and spent convictions,regardless of when they occurred will have a bearing on a traveler’s eligibility for admission into the United States

[Shytehawk]

I would say that you are in denial. There is a huge difference between a scuffle and ABH. With three convictions you have obviously not learned. With your aggressive attitude the last place you should be is in an aircraft cockpit.

[hobbit1983]

Well don't piss him off then.... ;)

Neo, at the moment there are a fair amount of jobs going in the UK. I can't speak as to hiring overseas with a record, but you might find getting a job here more likely than you think.

[VariablePitchP]

I would say that you are in denial. There is a huge difference between a scuffle and ABH. With three convictions you have obviously not learned. With your aggressive attitude the last place you should be is in an aircraft cockpit.

That's the three he got caught for, how often do you reckon people actually get caught having a brawl? Once every twenty or so times? People check backgrounds for a reason, to stop people who think knuckles are solutions to problems from getting into places like cockpits.

At least you know now before throwing money at getting a licence. Find an industry where security isn't the absolute number one priority above everything, unfortunately for you it is in aviation.

[dera]

US requires ACRO and court records when it shows "no live trace" as yours will (only "no trace" is OK for them). Since ABH is very much a "crime involving moral turpitude" (it is actually used as an example in the INA when there is intent to cause bodily harm), you are not eligible to travel to the US.

[PA28161]

Neo
Getting a job in an airline is tough enough even after you get through your CPL/IR JOC MCC ATPL exams. There's "thousands" of wannabe FO's out there (Integrated/modular) with no criminal records who after three, four, five, years still have not got that RHS job. Airlines carry out in-depth criminal records searches with police authorities. This is over and above the basic disclosure on-line exercise for the airside pass to very sensitive areas. I feel very sorry for you but that is the reality of the situation. I hope you can find some other less demanding and sensitive career that will be a source of contentment to you.

[jonkster]

Take this as you will - feel free to ignore...

How much do you want to fly? Is flying a passion for you or is being an airline pilot what drives you? (These are not necessarily the same things).

If you potentially have difficulty getting an airline job because of youthful indiscretions but have a real passion for flying, have you thought much about other domestic based non-airline flying jobs?

I believe if you *really* want a job flying because you love flying and are willing to look further than airlines or similar and can do it tough for a few years, there are potential options. Certainly less well paying and less glamorous (at least from the outside) and that require a lot of persistence to get but how much do you want to fly for a living?

One obvious example (assuming your previous record is not really a representation of your nature), people with dedication and persistence, good people skills, life experience, a thoughtful attitude to flying (and a passion for it) can make great instructors. Not lucrative in any way (and that is an issue - little money can make marriages and family raising hard) but good instructors are gold (even if they are not paid much gold). It can be very fulfilling as well.

If you went that route my gut feeling would be to be up front about your past to employers and show (with strong references, clean recent record, community participation etc) how your past is not representative of how you are now. Better they find out from you than discover it themselves and think you have hidden it.

[Hawker 800]

Assault occasioning ABH will never be filtered from a DBS check so even if it's spent it will still show. https://www.gov.uk/government/public...l-record-check (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/dbs-list-of-offences-that-will-never-be-filtered-from-a-criminal-record-check) Therefore whilst you have no obligation to tell your potential employer about a spent conviction as the ABH isn't filtered they will see it even on a basic disclosure.The above says it all. There is no way you will hold an airside pass with a previous ABH. It's with you for life. Many country's will mark you as 'criminally inadmissible'. You have more than one offence that will show on some checks, that makes it even harder.

Have you ever committed, been arrested for, been charged with or convicted of any criminal offence in any country? Select ‘Yes’ if you have ever committed, been charged with or convicted of a crime in any country.The above is cut and paste from Canada, for example. You cannot even go on holiday there without prior Canadian approval - that's just for a tourist.

Sadly, your (lifetime) ABH is the sticking point here as you will never be deemed rehabilitated.

criminal convictions obtained in the UK are generally assessed under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 instead of under the Immigration & Refugee Protection Act. As a result, once your criminal record becomes spent under the 1974 Act, you cease to be inadmissible to Canada and are regarded as ‘deemed rehabilitated’.Many countries don't welcome criminals for obvious reasons, but what criminal history is relevant and the period that must have elapsed since a conviction varies from country to country. For some countries, particularly Canada and the US, even a minor criminal conviction 50 years ago can cause you to be refused entry, while others would require a conviction for a violent or serious crime to be refused entry.https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Traveling_with_a_criminal_history

'Moral Turpitude' is grounds for not being issued a UAE visa also.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

https://www.mygov.scot/disclosure-types/?via=https://www.disclosurescotland.co.uk/

Why not apply for your own CRC from disclosure, and see what it says?

You could always work as an instructor from an airfield that does not have an airside pass system. Even bush flying in some countries in Cessna 206/208's etc require a CRC for a visa. Good luck though, and all the best.