CMD on flight tests

[radiodude]

Interesting find...

Some CFIs I've spoken too say they encourage their students to log their RPL and PPL flight tests as command time.

Othe CFIs say no no no, as the ATO is PIC.

What's your thoughts?

As for me I didn't. I logged dual.

RD

[Aussie Bob]

Well, if the candidate passes, it should be "in command" but if they fail, it could well be dual, depending on what the fail was about.

An ATO must not allow an inadvertent breach of CTA or a dangerous situation to develop. If these are prevented by the ATO, the flight is dual.

In the end, I guess it doesn't really matter. You logging dual is pretty normal. I say you are not really totally in command on a test. You are being told where to go and when to divert. If you were PIC you could say no.

[radiodude]

Interesting way to look at it Aussie Bob.

I might need to amend my logbook.

Actually on that note with logbooks. If your logbook is damaged how would you go replacing it and getting the CASA stickers and FI sign offs?

[Capt Fathom]

What is this obsession with Command Time?

Is a couple hours of Dual here and there going to change anything? :confused:

[radiodude]

No obsession, just a question...

Thanks for your input. It was exhilarating

[Aussie Bob]

Actually on that note with logbooks. If your logbook is damaged how would you go replacing it and getting the CASA stickers and FI sign offs?

With a Part 61 licence, the CASA stickers became obsolete. You can certify your own pages, in the end, no one will care anyway. I used to cut the CASA sticker pages out and carefully sticky tape them into the new logbook when the old one became full.

Now I just don't care .

[Capt Fathom]

Glad you enjoyed it! :ok:

[Stretch06]

No.

For the issue of a licence the FE/ATO would be the PIC.

The only test where you could log ICUS (not PIC) would be an IPC or FPC. Provided you are recent and current when the PC takes place.

PIC would always be the FE/ATO as he/she is ultimately the one in charge.

[scavenger]

If the ATO/FE occupies a control seat, they are the PIC. The ATO/FE cannot be the PIC from a jump or observer seat.

61.095 defines ICUS, and a flight test meets the requirements, providing the pilot is already licensed.

Dual for RPLs, or any other licence test if it is the pilot's first licence. All other flight tests are ICUS.

The FEH stupidly requires applicants log dual for all tests, but flight tests are not flight training under 141.015 or 142.015, nor under any other rule.

61.345 (3)(f) lists the 4 types of flight time activity that must be logged: PIC, ICUS, co-pilot and receiving flying training (dual). The RPL is not flying training so shouldn't be dual, can't be ICUS because the pilot isn't licensed yet, only leaving co-pilot. This result would look a little weird, and I can see why dual is preferred. I wish there were more simple guidance that actually complied with the legislation.

There's no requirement under part 61 for an ICUS logger to be recent or current.

[Brakerider]

During my initial training, my ATO's all said if you pass, it is logged as PIC. If you fail, it is logged as Dual.

My current operator requires all checks to be logged as ICUS.

[Capt Fathom]

During my initial training, my ATO's all said if you pass, it is logged as PIC. If you fail, it is logged as Dual

So who was actually the PIC during the flight?

Deciding who the PIC is after the flight is an interesting concept!

"I'm the PIC. If we crash, you'll be the PIC."

[RubberDogPoop]

PiC in NZ...

[swh]

If the ATO/FE occupies a control seat, they are the PIC. The ATO/FE cannot be the PIC from a jump or observer seat.

Care to show me where it says you have to be in a control seat to be PIC ? as far as I am aware, you can be PIC on the jump seat, on the throne, or in the bunk.

AFAIK it s the operator that defines who the PIC is, not where they are located in the aircraft.

[Aussie Bob]

Despite what I wrote in #2, I think we have firmly established that the testing officer is in fact PIC. I know I am when I do a flight test, even if I keep my trap shut and touch nothing (which invariably means you passed and acted "in command" and without supervision) .

How you log it afterwards ... I would say dual but I have never looked to see what "you" write. I don't even care. I am over the moon if "you" pass and somewhat depressed if "you" fail.

[Duck Pilot]

ICUS for a licence flight flight test if you pass, dual otherwise. Same for a rating renewal if your rating hasn't expired.

I'm probably wrong, so don't take my opinion as Part 61 compliant. The CAR 5 system was a lot easier to understand and logical.

[Arm out the window]

61.095 Definition of flight time as pilot in command under supervision for Part 61
(1) A person’s flight time as pilot in command under supervision is the duration of a flight if:
(a) the person holds a pilot licence; and
(b) the person performs all the duties of the pilot in command for the flight; and
(c) subregulation (2) or (3) applies to the flight.
(2) For paragraph (1)(c), this subregulation applies to the flight if:
(a) the flight is conducted by an operator that has training and checking responsibilities; and
(b) the pilot in command of the flight is authorised by the operator or the operator’s Part 142 operator to conduct the supervision of the person.
(3) For paragraph (1)(c), this subregulation applies to the flight if:
(a) the person is supervised by a flight instructor or flight examiner; and
(b) the person is not receiving flight training.

ICUS seems to be precluded for a licence test if they don't already hold a licence, so RPL would be out.
PPL, CPL or ATPL yes, if you already hold a lower level of licence.
Also ICUS if you're doing a flight test for a rating or an endorsement on a rating, ICUS would work. Otherwise it has to be dual I would say.

[scavenger]

Care to show me where it says you have to be in a control seat to be PIC ? as far as I am aware, you can be PIC on the jump seat, on the throne, or in the bunk.

Sure. We're talking about flight tests, so the Flight Examiner Handbook (https://www.casa.gov.au/file/139356/download?token=0FeaVBP1#page187) at 18.2.2 is instructive. Bottom of page 188.

CASA don't permit their delegates to the be PIC unless in a control seat, and this was stipulated in previous versions of the FEH. Now that examiners are exercising the privileges of their rating the wording has changed slightly, but the use of the word 'should' in the FEH indicates a strong obligation.

The requirement to log dual for flight tests has disappeared from the current FEH, a step forward.

ICUS if you're licensed, dual if not. AOTW has it...

[Propjet88]

So, if the candidate logs PI/C, what does the examiner log?
Fly safe

[Lead Balloon]

Only in Australia could such a fundamental question be the subject of such complexity and confusion....

[megan]

And what if the ATO is not even rated in the aircraft type? Was the case in my day.

[DeltaT]

As I understand it, and as my first CPL CAA flight testing officer told me, a flight test is the only situation in which both can log PIC if the candidate is successful in passing that flight test.
If you think about it, if you were successful in the flight test, then the examiner didn't have any input into your decision making or have overal command of the flight, hence your P1 fits.
In IR situations, I believe you still have to be within the validity period for the flight to be PIC otherwise it is P1S, as you would have to be exericsing the privilage of the rating.

[Capt Fathom]

both can log PIC
How can two people be PIC on the same flight?

[Lead Balloon]

The next alternative is obvious: Neither can log PIC time.

You know there'll be a rule somewhere to prove it.

[Aussie Bob]

But who cares? Just chuck it in your logbook as whatever and move on .....

[Lead Balloon]

OMG: I can't believe you said that, AB.

The law cares and the law is about safety.

The law says the time is logged as PIC time by the ATO, as dual by the pilot under test, as ICUS by the pilot under test, as PIC time by the pilot under test if s/he passes, as dual by the pilot under test if s/he fails, and as PIC time by neither.

Safety!

[Duck Pilot]

Wash you mouth out Bob, how dare you insist that anything should be simple and logical....

What's safety got to do with filling a log book in?