AIP index removal

[Hamley]

I operate commercial aircraft a few times per week. As with any other aviation professional safety is my absolute priority.

I regularly access many different tools to maintain the safety of my operation, to make sure I'm doing everything correctly. Often my first stop is AIP, which also often clears up what I need to know. I go to the index, find the topic I'm looking for, and there is the reference. Easy and efficient safety.

I recently inserted the latest AIP update (02 MAR 2017). Imagine my surprise when I looked in the back to find there is no index! Not only that but they have replaced it with 10 pages of blank paper!

It is now much harder for me to find the information I require. I know this sounds like splitting hairs, but it really is much more difficult to clarify things.

I'll say this clearly. Removing the AIP index has made it more difficult for me to keep my operation safe.

I contacted Airservices with my concern and was told the index was removed because it is a 'time consuming manual process'. Poor dears. Coincidently they have recently engaged a new printing company to produce this material. It doesnt take much imagination to see that the index has been removed as a way to save on publishing costs.

I was also told by Airservices that because it is a manual process, including the index creates more opportunity for error. An extremely thin argument that removing the index was a step forward in safety.

Does anyone else share my concerns? Can anyone suggest someone specific I could contact about this? I have contacted CASA and am awaiting a reply.

[Lead Balloon]

I'd suggest you contact Jeppesen.

[knight kevlar]

i agree the index should maintained as it is a reference document not a paperback.:{

[Ejector]

I had to check its not a April Fools Day Joke, incredible the stupidity.

[The name is Porter]

I had to check its not a April Fools Day Joke, incredible the stupidity

You're still surprised by their stupidity?

[Slippery_Pete]

Have you considered going to an electronic AIP copy on your iPad?

I assume the other reason they've binned the index is because many people have electronic copies now. Don't need an index if you can search for terms yourself.

[Capn Bloggs]

Does anyone else share my concerns?
Yes. The Index has gone from the electronic copy as well. Slippery, you are partially correct; if you know what to search for (and of course if you haven't joined up the three separate PDFs, GEN, ENR and AD, a search is even harder). Often though I find myself going into the index to find the topic, then going to the page.

Not having an Auto-Index in this day and age is non-sensical. Word Perfect could do indexs 15 years ago.

[Hamley]

Have you considered going to an electronic AIP copy on your iPad?


I have, and I do use it. But I prefer the hardcopy complete with my tags etc.


I still pay the same amount for my subscription, but now I get less.



Don't need an index if you can search for terms yourself.



By that logic they could save even more money by not printing charts any more. My iPad does that too.

[Lead Balloon]

I'm guessing the index used to be prepared by some of those useless back-office staff who contributed nothing to safety.

[sagan]

Safety issue

[sunnySA]

safety issue

[Hamley]

If anyone is concerned I suggest you contact Airserves to register a complaint.

[thunderbird five]

The complaints department officer was one of the 922 people who left.

[CYHeli]

CASA has reduced the number of document tags that a student can use in the exams because there is an extensive index.
Now what???

[ramble on]

It is bad enough trying to find any AIP reference WITH the Index as it stands let alone without it.

This pile of lawyer-speak vomitous verbiage is already a travesty and yet exemplifies the beauracracy in control of Oz aviation.

This is a step too far by a pen pushing public servant in the name of costs & margins.

If you are responsible for writing this AIP then you are responsible for keeping someone employed to arrange and index your drivel.

SAFETY.

[john_tullamarine]

Ah, the AIP and changes. It used to be an easy document to use in the dark ages ... but then CASA, when Buck was in the Chair, revamped it mightily and it went downhill from then .. I never quite worked out why it came to be an AirServices document.

Maybe I'm just an old dinosaur .... ?

[triadic]

A formal response to a RAPAC inquiry:

Cc: Docs, Amend
Subject: RE: AIP Amendment 90 [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

Good morning,

The index has been removed from the AIP Book. Indexing of the publication is a time consuming and manual process that has an increased risk of errors being published. It is not required by ICAO. The Table of Contents is comprehensive and provides more information than is required by ICAO.

Regards,

Aeronautical Information Officer
Airservices Australia


:ugh::ugh:

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Thank God ....I'm now purely 'VFR', and in 'bug smashers' at that.....

Can't remember any of this CRAP any more....and don't want to.....

Its troo....I've forgotten more than I'll ever know......

No Cheers,...nope...none at all..!!!:ugh:

[jas24zzk]

To the IPAD solution..........

Not everyone uses an EFB

[ComradeRoo]

A formal response to a RAPAC inquiry:

I guess the key point in the response is:"It is not required by ICAO". So here we are: a bit of cost savings, a marginal increase in KPI's and a pat on the back from the boss. Someone's got an employee of the month award for that :E

On the other hand - I always found that index convoluted and misleading, so no hard feelings.

[outnabout]

I am biased against electronic versions of the AIP / CAAPs / Regs.

When updating the hard copy, I usually find something that I had forgotten, or had been "amended" (changed) that I might not have been aware of....

[Hamley]

That's the same canned email response I received.

Attempting to paint it as a contribution to safety is ludicrous. Whoever made this decision to save publishing costs has made aviation a little bit less safe and therefore undermined the basic function of their organisation.

The removal of the index has made it more difficult for me to access information that keeps my aviation operation safe.

[Creampuff]

Reg Meissner would be turning over in his grave. :ugh:

[Dangly Bits]

Another good reason to buy the VFRG.

[Capn Bloggs]

To the IPAD solution..........
The Android version of Ozrunways doesn't have a search function for the AIP, so it's just as bad as the paper version...better off just downloading the 3 PDFs from the AsA website.

Now why doesn't AsA at least just combine the sections into one PDF? At least we'd have a chance of using the search with Xodo or Goodreader...

[le Pingouin]

Here ya go Bloggsy!

Current: http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/aip/current/aip/complete.pdf

Pending: http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/aip/pending/aip/complete.pdf

[Capn Bloggs]

Well there you go! Didn't see that; I'm sure it wasn't there for the March AIP when it was first posted. My digital intercourse with XXX of the XXX section of some months ago must have had an effect! Now all they need to do is add another heading level to the PDF Bookmarks and almost all will be forgiven...

[compressor stall]

Wow, I never thought I'd see the day. Well done ASA.

I now no longer get to write my rant at AirServices about not publishing the AIP as a whole document. I'll save the epithets for a sternly worded letter to my local council who have just approved a $350k pedestrian crossing in my town....

[BlockNotAvailable]

I was watching some other controllers trying to service some (super safe) class E procedures the other day. They had AIP out and were taking a very long time to find it. We wish the index was back too. We can't have electronic copies with us while we are working.

[Hamley]

I was watching some other controllers trying to service some (super safe) class E procedures the other day. They had AIP out and were taking a very long time to find it. We wish the index was back too. We can't have electronic copies with us while we are working.

Does anyone know an appropriate line of contact we can all use to make our feelings known?

I would like to raise my concerns with CASA as they are responsible for overseeing AIRSERVICES.

So far general contact addresses for both organisations have got me nowhere.

[triadic]

Try your NSW RAPAC Convenor. Details on the CASA web site.
Subject has already been raised at Vic and SQld RAPACs.

[Hamley]

This continues to be a pain in the neck for me.

In a reply to my enquiry, and editor from Airservices told me making the index is a 'time consuming and manual process' as one reason they stopped doing it.

Airservices are obviously very concerned about wasting time.

Why then do I receive bucketloads of these useless little edits and re-phrasings of unimportant little tidbits with every update?

http://i1356.photobucket.com/albums/q733/liamodonnell88/d5673d25-0378-4b56-81ac-dd4750e81d64_zps3sjdh18o.jpg

They had to go through the process of discussing, re-wording, typing, printing, packing and distributing thousands of these pages so that subscribers could take out the old one and insert the new.

What a stupid waste of time. Whoever is in charge of this is doing a rubbish job.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Agree Mr H,

Maybe 'they' are frightened that nobody can remember what 'ICAO' stands for...??

Remainder of this page (post) 'intentionally left blank'.....

:eek:

[Stationair8]

Better still it would be really nice if the amendments would fit into the frigging AIP folder!

[Lead Balloon]

You have it the wrong way 'round, Griffo. The later amendment removed the spelling out of the words that create the acronym "ICAO".

Either way, though, it was a perfectly pointless exercise and therefore perfectly appropriate for bureaucratic busy-work. :ugh:

[kaz3g]

To the IPAD solution..........

Not everyone uses an EFB

No Jas, but some of those that don't, should!

In fact, if they took some advice from the internal GPS they might find gold, rather than searching fruitlessly for silver. :D

Kaz

[Capt Fathom]

Look out, the sky is falling in! No More AIP Index?

With the decline in GA over the last decades, surely this is the least of our problems!

[gcafinal]

Airservices Australia blithely allegedly state that an item "is not required by ICAO. "However I would like to see the specific reference. I am not sure that their comment is correct. I was amused by the fact that I received my Australian AIP amendment package a couple of amendments ago, that comprised a complete replacement of the AIP document. That made life very easy and I thought (incorrectly) that the next amendment would be almost zero since the document had been completely (or so it seemed) re-written. My amusement was that the next amendment was not the complete document, but just as big ! I cannot believe the number of agencies that independently look after aviation matters in the Australian Government. Surely, this would be more cost-effective and efficient if it was all put under one Federal Ministers portfolio. The whole set-up and especially the documentation is a mighty unsafe jumble at the moment!

[Lead Balloon]

Airservices is technically correct on two grounds.

First, the only 'mandatory' provision in ICAO is the one obliging Australia to notify differences. Secondly, ICAO Annex 15 Chapter 4 (which details the content and format of AIP) only 'requires' a TOC. There is no mention of a separate index.

I'm surprised people are still paying for and using the paper version of AIP. It's masochistic.

As to the rest, here's an idea: Let's merge CASA and Airservices into a thing called the Department of Civil Aviation, reporting to a Minister for Aviation ....

[gcafinal]

LB. I am aware of the regs, however on the rare occasions I can get an Airservices Australia rep to actually talk to me, they often respond with throw-away lines like "ah its in the regs somewhere - you're a pilot YOU need to look it up!" My purpose is to ensure that what we are talking about, is also qualified with regard to the actual reg(s) and to also confirm that they do know what they are talking about too. In the DCA days, even the administrative staff had at least PPLs and other aviation qualifications. Aside of that, with all the debate about "aviation systems safety management," given that we are paying for the hard copy documents anyway, I fail to see why cost is a problem. If I need a reference, I need it quickly in today's flying environment, not spend some time looking through poorly constructed ambiguous texts soaked in legal language with the increasing threat of "strict liability." I operate in remote sectors where total local power supply failures are common, hence the need to keep hard copy documentation readily available for the "what if." The merger you mentioned is long overdue, but should include the Department of Transport and Regional Development as well as CASA and Airservices Australia and even the ATSB. Given that general aviation and the regional hubs associated with it appear to be gradually closing down, a Department called ..."Regional Development," is sad. Plus they are responsible for aviation security, yet CASA issues ASICs! The ATSB appears to be lacking serious expertise at the moment with Executives that have never flown professionally and people who join ATSB with aviation expertise, but then assigned to railway incidents! Even under one Minister, the ATSB can be kept independent with regard to ensuring the bona-fides of their role. The whole business needs a jolly good shake-up.

[kellykelpie]

A formal response to a RAPAC inquiry:

Quote:
Cc: Docs, Amend
Subject: RE: AIP Amendment 90 [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

Good morning,

The index has been removed from the AIP Book. Indexing of the publication is a time consuming and manual process that has an increased risk of errors being published. It is not required by ICAO. The Table of Contents is comprehensive and provides more information than is required by ICAO.

Regards,

Aeronautical Information Officer
Airservices Australia


I'm guessing it's much cheaper now - right?

[Hovercraft111]

I share your sentiment.
Completely unacceptable. It has hampered search ability and therefore jeopardizing time and therefore safety.
This is an obvious attempt to cut costs in they're ever changing AIP or they just can't keep up.
I was told to search under contents but we all know very well there is much that can be missed searching contents.

We need to put pressure on CASA and AIRSERVICES to Get them to include it ASAP

[Hovercraft111]

Have you considered going to an electronic AIP copy on your iPad?

I assume the other reason they've binned the index is because many people have electronic copies now. Don't need an index if you can search for terms yourself.

Electronic copies not acceptable for exam purposes

[Hovercraft111]

The index has been removed from the AIP Book. Indexing of the publication is a time consuming and manual process that has an increased risk of errors being published. It is not required by ICAO. The Table of Contents is comprehensive and provides more information than required by ICAO.

Alternatively, you can access the document online and use the Find (ctrl F) function if you wish to do a search for specific information.

Stock standard canned useless reply

[Hamley]

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/8b986619_07df_4942_a86f_c8aedefa4cc9_03374a6cc5c718561cf4f98 26a60bfd5f0637152.jpeg
Sorry to clog up the airwaves. This is from my latest AIP update. The previous and updated page are pictured - the change is a minor detail in the URL. Guess what happens if you enter the old one into your browser - SAME RESULT!!! How much does it cost per page for someone to edit this stuff, approve it, print it, distribute it ... for what? This is a waste of time and money. Whoever approved and distributed this change is wasting all our time (and paper).