Boat in HK good idea and where?

[jumbobelle]

Now that the deal is back on the table a boat seems a good idea financially but where is good for getting to the airport and easy to live in. DB is convenient but lots of rumours about debentures and closing the marina. So Aberdeen? Sai Kung?

[goneferrying]

Can some of the DB marina residents shed light on the marina's future, please?

[MENELAUS]

It's a great idea for lifestyle. However a lack of privacy and of course the usual HK money obsession means it comes with a whole load of caveats. To say nothing of the same uncertainty as the current CX deal is not laid out in stone for very long.
Sai Kung. By far most picturesque, however v hard now to get a berth in HEBE and RHKYC virtually unattainable. CWB marina beautiful. Sadly a closed shop thanks to Li Ka Shing and his cronies crowding out liveaboards.
DB. Some doubts as to debentures and the future of the whole marina. Frankly there's always been something in the air since the bloody place opened.
GOLD Coast. Most"stable" of the lot, not a bad location although access to town is difficult.
Aberdeen. V busy, boat traffic and people. Not much in the way of privacy. Access now easier with MTR.

[Gnadenburg]

Where does all your ****t go ?

[MENELAUS]

Have less ****t. Very cathartic.

[Ex Cathedra]

Rumor has it that the GC marina is the one that might get the landfill treatment...

Risky option in any case. HK developers would rather fill out all the marinas and build towers and shopping malls instead... more profits.

The day they evict you from the marina, they'll give you the debenture's face value, which is about 5 times less than what you paid for it, and your boat becomes instantly worthless without a mooring.

Tread carefully.

[Liam Gallagher]

Globocnik,

How is the current deal not set in stone? After the RP debacle, I thought the HKAOA had learnt its lesson and moved away from short term BS deals.

[Shot Nancy]

Where does all your ****t go ?


Holding tanks are now compulsory.

[MENELAUS]

It expires when arapa is up for review. As I understand it. So far from set in stone

[Trafalgar]

Considering the above comment: ...so, no different than an ARAPA pilot considering purchasing an apartment?

[Rice power]

Info ref Gold Coast only:
-debenture face value is the same as what you initially paid ie no mark up built into the boat price unlike others.
-airport to Tuen Mun tunnel opens Dec 2017 earliest / more likely 1st quarter 2018. Should drop travel times to work to around 15 mins.
-Strong rumours of MTR extending thru Tsing Yi with station at Sam Shing (1 km away) so continuous MTR line thru to Central.
-Sino group pouring money into marina and looking to expand more berths.

Would be helpful if some of you "experts" knew what you were talking about before punching the keyboard.

[catpac]

One of the guys from the marina once told me, there are only 2 happy days of boat ownership. The day you buy it, and the day you sell it...

[MENELAUS]

Rice. It is a rumour network. Tonto

[missingblade]

Huge shortage of marina space. No way the government will approve the rezoning of any marina for other purposes.
Old wives tales about this is nonsense.

The so called lack of privacy on a boat is nonsense too. Boats dont share walls like apartments so you never have to listen to your neighbors. And if you don't want to see them close your curtains. Like everywhere else.
Marinas are great social communities. Which is a lot more than you can say for the average hkg building where you don't even know who lives next to you.
It's also dead quiet. I never have to listen to jackhammers and traffic.

Best quality of life you'll ever have in hkg.

Only downside is costs. Which will slowly keep going up due the relative increasing value of all berths due shortages.

[Fliegenmong]

I used to stay on a CX mates boat in Sai Kung / Hebe Haven?? Not bad at all...but it was long ago...

[Veruka Salt]

I'd disagree with Missingblade about rezoning not happening, and though I'd agree theres no jackhammers, I'd disagree that 6 inches of plywood and fibreglass keep noise out better than Mr Concrete.

No scraping of furniture/kids toys across the floor above you, no jackhammering in the walls. No sound of old mate above you taking a 3am leak. No putrid cabbage smells permeating through from your neighbour's cooking. You get the idea.

[fire wall]

I cannot stand the stench of steaks sizzling on the neighbour's bbq, that is until he invites me over then it's all good.
In truth, I will never live in an apartment again.

[missingblade]

To recap. Basically it's a fantastic lifestyle. But there are ' perceived' risks. Which has never actually materialized in all these years but maybe one day could lead to some issues and or some value loss.

It's not as good financially as buying a concrete box but it's better than renting because at least some of your $$$ goes into an asset you can sell on. That being said buying a concrete box in the current market has some value risk attached as well..

Once you accept that - harden up and make the move - you'll never look back. Nobody ever leaves a marina cause they don't like it...

[Flapslat]

This "Hong Kong" special has ended.
DB Marina: 80% of boats on the market. Prices in free fall.
Gold Coast marina not allowing sales with debenture and berth. Prices in free fall.
Big business run Hong Kong and to rezone build apartments which pay stamp duty and rates to the government, boats do not. Of course this will happen. It's all about $$$

[Bigpicture12]

I would recommend renting a boat for a few weeks if possible first. I too though living in a marina would be the ideal Hong Kong lifestyle until I spent a few weeks on board a friends. Whilst some of it was indeed fun, I personally found there were many negatives, in particular ongoing costs.. and don't forget the Fly's,Float's, F... s expression. All very true from my experience!

[Bigpicture12]

I don't own a golf cart in DB, but from what I hear, they are indeed, a better investment!

[Rice power]

Gold Coast IS allowing boat sales with debenture and associated water.
Movement was halted whilst the new management got a grip on the mess left behind by the previous encumbants. Normal service has been resumed.
I understand this is a rumour network but at leat try and find out if the rumour you a regurgitating has some basis in truth.

[MENELAUS]

I did state that GC was the most stable of the lot; the mooted MTR stations/lines are at the planning stage and aren't even gazetted yet.. I would agree, however, that it is a great way of life..Caveat emptor..twice in this case

[frampton]

What about all the Junk mail you might receive?

[Trafalgar]

Well, there are 30 year old junks in the Marina worth 6 m + (about 6 X what they cost new). So....

[TSIO540]

We tried to buy a $3.7 flat but could not justify 19.5% duty that would result in a million dollar loss just for signing. We then considered the risk / cost of a boat and I can say that the only way we're leaving the marina is to leave Bong Kong.

We have 2,500 sqft, 3 beds, 4 bathrooms, 2 lounge rooms, 2 decks, good kitchen, a double office, a laundry room and plenty of storage. In all that we were able to have the main fridge, the beer fridge, the standby beer fridge and the wine fridge - a BBQ too.

[jumbobelle]

When buying, brokers seem to be asking for 5% commission, is that normal or are there brokers that don't charge the buyer?

[Veruka Salt]

Usually, no commission charged to the buyer. Seller pays 2-3%

[mngmt mole]

Make an offer, no commission (seller pays commission). The only other method is 1% from both buyer and seller. Asking prices are starting to head back up again now that the deal is in place. Best years of my life in HK were living on a boat in DB. Miss every day I had there, was like a vacation. :{

[jumbobelle]

Thanks for all the info. Also someone mentioned CX wont pay for the mooring, how do you get around that (without spending a small ransom on one?)

[Flapslat]

Basically you will find it hard to get around the mooring costs. Most agents and sellers will try to include this in the price of boat. Be careful this is specifically not allowed and you might be liable or worse if company question value!!!!

[LGB]

So, what's up for having a boat in DB or GC at the moment?

[mngmt mole]

Well, when you correct your grammar so that we can figure out what it is you are asking, i'm sure someone will let you know. :ugh:

[Shot Nancy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGp4DvFEgh8

[Captain Dart]

The mast would be ‘up’ unless the boat has capsized.

[morningcoffee]

Basically you will find it hard to get around the mooring costs. Most agents and sellers will try to include this in the price of boat. Be careful this is specifically not allowed and you might be liable or worse if company question value!!!!

I’m guessing if you’re in the DB marina as the final months of your debenture tick down, this is the least of your problems. Hoping a solution can be found.

[Dragon Pacific]

To the guys in DB Marina the very best of luck. I hope that you can all salvage the most possible from the terrible situation you have been plunged into. I used to live there, it was a fantastic community and I never thought that it would come to such a cruel and heartless end.

[Oasis]

To the guys in DB Marina the very best of luck. I hope that you can all salvage the most possible from the terrible situation you have been plunged into. I used to live there, it was a fantastic community and I never thought that it would come to such a cruel and heartless end.
What happened?

[Dragon Pacific]

What happened?
https://m.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/society/article/2162366/hong-kong-houseboat-community-200-families-faces-eviction

[Frogman1484]

Despicable! Hong Kong is a rotten toxic place to live in!!! The greed and lack of compassion shown by HKRI is nothing short of criminal. Karma will get them in the end ����

[unitedabx]

Just got a quote to tow mine to the typhoon shelter. No plug-ins available and 5 day max stayover. Looking for quote to send mine on a container ship down South. Anyone got any ideas ?
My missus has thrown a wobbly and flew down to MEL last night.

Also, you can get your debenture back immediately but must vacate marina within 7 days.

Two berths at Gold Coast but not for liveaboards, only berths.

[mngmt mole]

My understanding is that the boat owners would prefer that there not be any public comment outside of their nominated reps. They deserve all the support we can give them. HK at it's worst.

[unitedabx]

MM. The WhatsApp chat group is a hive of activity and I understand a local radio station is doing interviews in the marina as I write this. HKR has given a public statement in the local rags.
CX to put out a statement reminding boat owners that the allowance is only payable if the boat remains their sole/permanent residence in HKG.

[Frogman1484]

You serious Cx is going to act like a dick and stick it to the guys as well!

[Brown Nose]

You serious Cx is going to act like a dick and stick it to the guys as well!

CX knows no other way

[744drv]

If CX do that it will push all boat owners over the edge such that there will be 100 pilots unfit due stress with one sweep of the pen. A considerate employer wins dividends in the long run ..... CX is doomed.

[UnaMas]

I ship all my boats around the world with -

freight plus dot com

Not affiliated with them at all, just used them a lot and they are pretty good at it.

Happy to talk via PM for anyone interested in getting contact details

[unitedabx]

As I reported yesterday, the DFO has made an announcement and the company will "reach out" to the DB boat owners !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well certainly to at least one called PC.

[bonzaboy]

So what is Clause 35.4.j referred to in the DFO "reach out" missive.

[swh]

So what is Clause 35.4.j referred to in the DFO "reach out" missive.

is that where your employment will be terminated if you are bankrupt?

[Busbert]

As I recall there were some ‘seniors’ on the 3rd floor in the ‘same boat’, so that might help in an outbreak of compassion.

[ACMS]

Wow, the DFO didn’t act like a dick and stick it to them........

Some ( yes you Unitedabx ) in here were wrong, who would have thought that possible !!

[unitedabx]

ACMS

You need to READ what is written and stop shooting off half cocked. All I said was the company would make a statement and it has. I happen to know that the company is looking to assist the boat owners. So wind you neck in.

[unitedabx]

Hot off the press.
CX considering providing "one off loans" to help boat owners pay off their personal loans when the companies call them in. The first such call in of outstanding debt arrived in the post today.

[unitedabx]

Company offer very generous under the circumstances.

[STW]

United, please watch your manners, you cannot say positive things about the company in here.

[ACMS]

Unitedabx—-no mate you actually said more than “CX will make a statement”, in fact you went further:—“CX to put out a statement reminding boat owners that the allowance is only payable if the boat remains their sole/permanent residence in HKG”

They didn’t do that did they, they appear to be acting with compassion.

You directly tell me to wind my Neck in whilst at the same time your Head seems to be stuck somewhere unpleasant.......

[Babbalito]

I'm not sure how the transfer of debt helps these families. They will still be homeless while having the same debt and a virtually valueless boat/debenture in many cases.
A truly dreadful situation for them.

[Busbert]

Well I guess it keeps the bailiffs from the door. Presumably the $20k currently going to the marina club in mooring/service charges will go a long way towards a small flat in Tung Chung until they shift the boat.
Back in the day when junks were around 1-2m, buying and paying off a junk was seen as a way of syphoning the owner occupier allowance, and then selling the junk as soon as it was paid for (and of course buying another from a fellow pilot). There was a running gag about how many times the CX allowance had paid for certain of the older junks.

[mngmt mole]

Very helpful Busbert. Thank you for such a positive contribution to the misery of so many of our colleagues and their families.

[Freehills]

True - but expecting compassion from a HK property development company is like the story of the frog & scorpion. Of course the scorpion stings the frog. It is a scorpion.

CX seems to be doing the right thing in at least offering a path out. (though obviously in their interest vs pilots having to resign & leave HK)

[Air Profit]

And what "path" out is CX offering? Any boat owners care to comment?

[Arfur Dent]

Seems like the perfect incentive to leave and work somewhere that gives a damn.

[unitedabx]

And what "path" out is CX offering? Any boat owners care to comment?

Fridays offer was a surprise and very welcome. It should prevent most from possible bankruptcy and forced resignation from CX. I for one will be at CX City bright and early tomorrow morning to sign up.

[Verbal Kint]

What was Friday’s offer? As one affected, I’d really like to know. PM if you prefer.

[Krone]

Very helpful Busbert. Thank you for such a positive contribution to the misery of so many of our colleagues and their families.

People have forgotten the 97 property slump. Did CX bail out owners then? Its discrimination, I hear you say!

Boat owners have been on the merry go round of buy , pay off, sell, and pocket millions of HK$ for years. Whats pi$$ed off the local oligarcs is that they are being embarassed by expatriates, making shed loads of cash off their backs. They are angry and annoyed.

To HK Resorts, (or Sino at the Gold coast ) the income from boats mooring fees is laughable. A boat boy drowned in Gold Coast, while working for a CX captain. Not Ideal.

I think Gold Coast Marina will soon follow HK Resorts in clearing the livaboards. They seem to want day boats.

Finally, historically, livaboards were junks, wooden and not unsightly . However, many livaboards are taking the mickey on size. I mean they are Huge, 5000 sq feet upwards. towering masses of ugly fiberglass and twin radar domes.
These owners are greedy, and have ruined it for the rest of the boating community.

[Frogman1484]

Really? I can’t believe I have just read this!

would you say this in public to the boat owners at the marina? I doubt it you would have the balls to do that...coward !

[Brokeidiot]

So the company are helping those who are knowingly breaking the law...

On an unrelated note I wonder if the company will give me and interest free loan if I lost a shipment of blood diamonds.

[Bingo24]

Or lend money to the thousands of local staff who will never be able to buy a “shoe box” to live in.

[Freehills]

This is CX - since when have moral qualms about laws been an issue? (Basing, Cargo fines)

this is pragmatism along with some nepotism. CX can’t afford to lose that many crew, and some impacted are well connected.

[main_dog]

Some of the affected people might indeed be well-off fatcats with multiple houses, having some water-borne fun “on the merry go round of buy , pay off, sell, and pocket millions of HK$ for years”.

Some however are simply crew who have moved to HKG over the last few years, found that between stamp duty and absurd real estate prices even on ARAPA/BOAS they couldn’t afford to buy anything decent, and so they tried to buy a boat to live on instead, pouring in a substantial amount of their own money in the process. They now face possible bankruptcy, victims of HKG greed and speculation, not examples of it.

[unitedabx]

What was Friday’s offer? As one affected, I’d really like to know. PM if you prefer.

You should have received an email from CX Housing.

[Verbal Kint]

Thanks United; haven’t yet, but will have another look.

[unitedabx]

Just back from CX Housing. I didn't know there are actually 4 different "boat buyers" contracts, so the "offer" may not be open to all.

[Brokeidiot]

Some of the affected people might indeed be well-off fatcats with multiple houses, having some water-borne fun “on the merry go round of buy , pay off, sell, and pocket millions of HK$ for years”.

Some however are simply crew who have moved to HKG over the last few years, found that between stamp duty and absurd real estate prices even on ARAPA/BOAS they couldn’t afford to buy anything decent, and so they tried to buy a boat to live on instead, pouring in a substantial amount of their own money in the process. They now face possible bankruptcy, victims of HKG greed and speculation, not examples of it.

Are you trying to imply they did not know it was illegal? I don’t agree with “victim of HKG greed” when conducting illegal activity. Kind of like expecting sympathy when getting ripped off by a drug dealer... you know due to drug dealer GREED.

[Verbal Kint]

Ok Brokeidiot, as you’re the self - appointed repository of wisdom on HK legal matters, please point us to the specific legislation and supporting CaseLaw showing illegal use of these pleasure craft.

[Brokeidiot]

Ok Brokeidiot, as you’re the self - appointed repository of wisdom on HK legal matters, please point us to the specific legislation and supporting CaseLaw showing illegal use of these pleasure craft.

Nope not a lawyer nor am I a judge never claimed to be one. Is it your arguement that it is a legal to live on a boat in Hong Kong? Unless you referring to the 4 boats legally licensed as such. P.S In case you wondering I also know it is also illegal to live in a building registered as Industrial building can’t give you a reference for that either before you ask.

[main_dog]

Brokeidiot, I’m sure your “holier-than-thou” attitude isn’t helping these people. While technically you are correct, you also know full well that the government closing an eye to this practice is long-established in HK in view of the limited real estate available, so much so that even the company has been understanding and has allowed it.

The issue here is not the legality or lack thereof, it’s simply typical HKG greed and lack of transparency which is personally hurting some of our colleagues.

[mngmt mole]

To my affected colleagues, you are in my thoughts. As to those individuals taking delight in adding to their misery on this forum, you can be certain that every one of you will reap what you sow at some point in your own life. If you do not have anything helpful to add, then keep your otherwise negative and hurtful opinions to yourself. This is a great drama, and having a close friend and his family suffering from whats happening makes me appreciate that nothing in this godforsaken place is ever certain. To have some of your fellow pilots seemingly take perverse delight in their misfortune is sickening. BrokeIdiot, Krone, Busbert. The three of you in particular make me ill. Shame on you all.

[Brokeidiot]

Coming across as “holier-than-thou” is not my intent. The point I am trying to make is the individuals must of know the risk was there. I make bad decisions in life like everyone else but don’t expect special treatment when it goes badly.

[mngmt mole]

Why don't you learn all the facts about the situation before posting hurtful and unhelpful comments. Seriously, just shut up and go away, as these people are already greatly suffering. Or conversely, pick up a bigger shovel and keep digging yourself a deeper hole. Your username will undoubtedly describe yourself in about 30 years.

[positionalpor]

Brokenidiot,
we sincerely don’t care about your comments.
PA

[Brokeidiot]

As always no one can express a differing view without the junior school play ground insults. Might I suggest if you that easily angered it might be best if you “go away” from public discussion forums.

Why don't you learn all the facts about the situation before posting hurtful and unhelpful comments. Seriously, just shut up and go away, as these people are already greatly suffering. Or conversely, pick up a bigger shovel and keep digging yourself a deeper hole. Your username will undoubtedly describe yourself in about 30 years.

[main_dog]

Coming across as “holier-than-thou” is not my intent. The point I am trying to make is the individuals must of know the risk was there. I make bad decisions in life like everyone else but don’t expect special treatment when it goes badly.


The dire straits our colleagues now find themselves in have nothing to do with the legality of living on a boat, and all to do with money, lack of clarity and avarice (not their own).

These are families who in some cases might face personal bankruptcy. At best you come across as unkind.

[Apple Tree Yard]

Broken Idiot, your comments weren't just a "differing opinion", they served no purpose other than to kick people when they were already down. Another name for that is "coward". It makes me sick to think that I share the cockpit with people like you.

[Busbert]

Now that the legality of liveaboards has been ‘clarified’ by the Marine Department, I’m sure that there will be some unfortunate civil servants under a lot of pressure to ‘obey the law’ and ’do the right thing’. Spare a thought also for the Deputy Chairman and Managing Director of HKRI, Victor Cha, who is probably getting it in the ear from his wife Laura who is a member of the HK Executive Council. There’s the strong risk of loss of face if she is seen to be benefiting from income from an ‘illegitimate’ source in this case taking money from ‘illegal liveaboards’ - we all know where Donald Tsang ended up.
There is ultimately the risk of ‘contagion’ whereby the Marine Department is compelled to take a stand and enforce the current legislation on all houseboats. I’ve found that the HK Govt are fairly pragmatic up to the point that circumstances force them to make a statement and enforce the law. Once they engage that mindset they are ruthlessly efficient.
Contrary to remarks from other forum users, I don’t take any pleasure in adding to the misery and agonizing stress that the boat owners are experiencing.
The essential issue is that government officials have come out and clearly stated their statutory position. The fact that the DB Marina Club is closing for ‘renovation’ and may or may not reopen is immaterial, as is a general absence of available berths. A bright light has been shone on houseboats, and knowing how efficient and inflexible the bureaucrats can be, I’m not optimistic.

[swh]

What has the Marine Department started ?

[GMEDX]

The legality of Golf Carts is also being questioned. I know that DB's roads are private but with the increasing amount of traffic in DB they are leaving themselves open to a huge claim in the event of an accident between incompatible vehicles that results in death or serious injury. Transport Dept being told to catch up with the Marine Dept.Friends of friends etc being given a chance to sell at an inflated price before the ban?

[Busbert]

The golf carts are regulated as village vehicles and the cap on the issue of new licenses was a condition stipulated prior to the opening of the tunnel. You need to produce a certificate of insurance every year when renewing your vv license. There have already been serious/fatal accidents due to golf cart/bus collisions and ‘single vehicle’ accidents along the main drag.
A reasonably large proportion of the golf carts are owned by companies and individuals closely aligned with HKRI which should give golf cart owners a degree of comfort.

[morningcoffee]

If it was completely a shock, why can’t all AOA members financially contribute to clear all the debt?

[unitedabx]

DB golf carts a total red herring and divergance.
Stick to the topic please.

[arse]

If it was completely a shock, why can’t all AOA members financially contribute to clear all the debt?

Very Conservative figures: 25 AOA members affected to an average of 3.5 million each with 2000 AOA members would be $43,750 per member. Wonderful if it happened, but I can't see it. What about a $10,000 donation per member + the balance as member loans with longer repayment terms than CX.

[unitedabx]

Very Conservative figures: 25 AOA members affected to an average of 3.5 million each with 2000 AOA members would be $43,750 per member. Wonderful if it happened, but I can't see it. What about a $10,000 donation per member + the balance as member loans with longer repayment terms than CX.

Actually only 16 are HKAOA members out of a total of 42 and you would abandon the rest.

[SloppyJoe]

absolutely

[unitedabx]

absolutely

Sad but soooooooooo HKAOA. F*** you jack I'm alright policy.

[SloppyJoe]

If someone chooses not to be a member of the HKAOA, why on earth should they benefit from membership? It's the same as crashing your uninsured car, then complaining to AIG that they are not buying you a new car.

[unitedabx]

United,

Not that it would happen but if it did, why would union members help out non union members?
I've never heard so much rubbish in my life.

And there is the problem. You think too small and look where it has got you. 90% of C&T are NOT in the HKAOA because it doesn't represent them. It represents the SO's and FO's who are by far the majority and they frankly are glad to have a job because no one else would employ them. And before you reply "but they are leaving now". Take look at the actual numbers. The truth is hard to swallow but there it is. Wait for these junior pilots to make a move and you'll be waiting a long long time, like never. They simply haven't the b****lls. Others In this post have suggested that the C&T's resign. Why should they. They are not in the union and you want to distance them even further. Good luck with that. What is needed is a UNITED front not this pathetic I'm a member crap. The HKAOA needs to reach out to the senior captains ( 42% members ) and the C&T captains and offer a way forward. Or you can keep sticking your head in the sand and hope the very people you want to alienate fight your battles for you. Wake up.

[Krone]

90% of the people on Pprune wouldn't back up the comments in public

Hey , I just said to a guy, your boat is a worthless pile of Junk, lol .See i’m no coward :)

[Freehills]

What has the Marine Department started ?

Technically a license is required to live on a boat, and only 4 still exist with none issued since 1983.

Blind eye turned, because the original target was slum clearance, not middle class expats.

[Dragon Pacific]

Slacken off those mooring lines, leave the windows and doors open and leave the rest to Mangosteen.

[Freehills]

- unilateral, but contractually HKRI have the right to
- lending on the boat/ owners income
- Standoff is unlikely. Technically liveaboards need a license, which they don't have.
- what negotiated compromise would you see? HKRI to cancel their plans?

[TurningFinalRWY36]

agreed, I can guarantee no one outside the DB marina will care that much, especially people outside HK. Think about how many stories you dont hear of from other countries, this will just be one of those

[Dragon Pacific]

I don’t see how there will be a standoff either. All DB Marina have to do is lock the gates, turn off the water, electricity and internet and wait.

[Foxdeux]

During a typhoon, how safe is it to live on a docked boat?

[Farman Biplane]

captain8.........tell ‘im he’s dreamin’....

[markontop]

Yes let's demonstrate.
Last time that happened in China (where we live) Tanks and students remember.
International news. Global impact.
Anything change?
Nope.
Seriously.........

[Scoreboard]

During a typhoon, how safe is it to live on a docked boat?

its called a typhoon shelter for a reason....i.e. fairly safe ......**** happens sometimes but ask all the people with windows blown in or trees thru their homes after last typhoon.

[Scoreboard]

And there is the problem. You think too small and look where it has got you. 90% of C&T are NOT in the HKAOA because it doesn't represent them. It represents the SO's and FO's who are by far the majority and they frankly are glad to have a job because no one else would employ them. And before you reply "but they are leaving now". Take look at the actual numbers. The truth is hard to swallow but there it is. Wait for these junior pilots to make a move and you'll be waiting a long long time, like never. They simply haven't the b****lls. Others In this post have suggested that the C&T's resign. Why should they. They are not in the union and you want to distance them even further. Good luck with that. What is needed is a UNITED front not this pathetic I'm a member crap. The HKAOA needs to reach out to the senior captains ( 42% members ) and the C&T captains and offer a way forward. Or you can keep sticking your head in the sand and hope the very people you want to alienate fight your battles for you. Wake up.

you sir are pretty stupid ...my AOA fees will help members not non members thats the point.....its for MEMBERS.as for CT they should all resigned last year when no 13th month....a bunch of my mates did leading up to it.....but those that crossed this year and those that remain are just sniveling pissants who scrounge for favours while getting **** kicked in their face.they are as almost as stupid as your posts....as for the juniors.....yep they have balls they are leaving or planning on leaving...or too stupid to see it with the latest contract shot across our bow.

[morningcoffee]

Whats C&T got to do with the plight of those on boats in DB, FFS?

How about a whip round for the DB guys? 5k each from all AOA/DPA members, should pay off their outstanding loans, and allow them to at least remove their junk to Australia etc. They may then start a new life with a deposit to buy an apartment. Or at worse, be able to afford a rental.

Otherwise, they may sink rather than swim when the lights go out.
5k each would work if there were 120,000 members in the AOA/DPA. I'm thinking sadly you haven't got a clue what the shortfall is in outstanding loans.

[unitedabx]

5k each would work if there were 120,000 members in the AOA/DPA. I'm thinking sadly you haven't got a clue what the shortfall is in outstanding loans.

Quote for moving a 40 foot Stubby down to AUS HKD53,000

[SloppyJoe]

Moving how? A lot of these boats are not fit to go to sea. Once in Aus how much would it cost to get it passed all the legislation? I think many would require redesigning and rebuilding.

[unitedabx]

Moving how? A lot of these boats are not fit to go to sea. Once in Aus how much would it cost to get it passed all the legislation? I think many would require redesigning and rebuilding.

All boats are "sea worthy" and have to be by law. That doesn't mean you would risk sailing/motoring over to Thailand in them but they must meet certain requirements. The new stubbies are built to a good standard and whilst some minor specifications might need alteration ie metric/imperial threads they would for the most part meet international standards.

[Dragon Pacific]

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/451x800/66e0f983_96b7_4c72_9670_cb53d76f7b99_f0f9de6751cced39616df2e fcf672123f7017ca7.jpeg

[SloppyJoe]

Oh you mean put it on a cargo ship. Your quote is ludicrous. Who gave you that quote, are you sure it was not a quote in AUD? United, you appear to be clueless about most things, but offer advice and comment as if you have experience in everything.

[unitedabx]

Oh you mean put it on a cargo ship. Your quote is ludicrous. Who gave you that quote, are you sure it was not a quote in AUD? United, you appear to be clueless about most things, but offer advice and comment as if you have experience in everything.

Company is called ATLANTICPRO.
Shipping is by container ( ie inside a container ).
Hong Kong container port to Sydney paid HKD53,000. Does not include Aussie import tax.
Boat depatred HKG 7 days ago. ETA SYD 18th October.

[Bend alot]

unitedabx, can you supply updates on how it all goes?

We had an uphill battle bringing a second hand aircraft into Australia via shipping - took days of interna(l inc wings) of cleaning and removing foreign objects, and we still got lucky getting it customs cleared.

[Tankengine]

Company is called ATLANTICPRO.
Shipping is by container ( ie inside a container ).
Hong Kong container port to Sydney paid HKD53,000. Does not include Aussie import tax.
Boat depatred HKG 7 days ago. ETA SYD 18th October.
Have you ever seen a 40’ container! ;)

[Bend alot]

A 40' open shipping container also know as a flat bed container, can certainly carry large boats on the top deck of cargo ships.

[Kitsune]

And sometimes they can conveniently fall off at sea...:cool:

[unitedabx]

unitedabx, can you supply updates on how it all goes?

We had an uphill battle bringing a second hand aircraft into Australia via shipping - took days of interna(l inc wings) of cleaning and removing foreign objects, and we still got lucky getting it customs cleared.

The paperwork is all online now and fairly straight forward customs wise. It enters Australia as "personal effects" and you declare the boat as such and any belongings inside( in my case everything I own ). You need to have the boat cleaned and the various tanks cleaned and emptied prior to arrival in Australia. You get a certificate of compliance and scan it and send to the Aussie authorities. They have the opportunity to inspect the boat upon arrival and I will wait and see what they say. Hong Kong waters are not in designated "alert" areas so there should be no problems. Absolutely no foodstuffs to be onboard but that is obvious. The boat is customs sealed here in HKG by HKG Customs. The seal broken by their counterparts in SYD.
So fingers crossed.I will keep you posted.

[Bend alot]

The paperwork is all online now and fairly straight forward customs wise. It enters Australia as "personal effects" and you declare the boat as such and any belongings inside( in my case everything I own ). You need to have the boat cleaned and the various tanks cleaned and emptied prior to arrival in Australia. You get a certificate of compliance and scan it and send to the Aussie authorities. They have the opportunity to inspect the boat upon arrival and I will wait and see what they say. Hong Kong waters are not in designated "alert" areas so there should be no problems. Absolutely no foodstuffs to be onboard but that is obvious. The boat is customs sealed here in HKG by HKG Customs. The seal broken by their counterparts in SYD.
So fingers crossed.I will keep you posted.

Cheers Mate, ours went fine from export at Eastern Europe to Australia till a birds nest was found inside a wing - then that made for hard times.
Wish you the best. Are you following the boat or staying a while?

[Krone]

What about the boys with the 60 foot plus Junk behemoths , will they ship those on a flat deck?

Some Boats must weigh upto 50 tonnes . WTF were those guys designing & building them so big for? Ans: mines bigger than yours syndrome.
.
Or am I missing something???

[unitedabx]

Cheers Mate, ours went fine from export at Eastern Europe to Australia till a birds nest was found inside a wing - then that made for hard times.
Wish you the best. Are you following the boat or staying a while?

I'm following the boat. Gone by Xmas. No futire here.

[mngmt mole]

Hey , I just said to a guy, your boat is a worthless pile of Junk, lol .See i’m no coward :)

Krone, you seem to have a lot to say, most of it deliberately aggravating. I have a good friend in the Marina who's life has been turned upside down. If you don't have anything positive to say, then perhaps you can go off and play somewhere else...

[mngmt mole]

What about the boys with the 60 foot plus Junk behemoths , will they ship those on a flat deck?

Some Boats must weigh upto 50 tonnes . WTF were those guys designing & building them so big for? Ans: mines bigger than yours syndrome.
.
Or am I missing something???


...yet more evidence of your rather immature nature. Grow up.

[LGB]

Someone suggested the option of finding a spot of land, close enough to sea - where you could drag up your (house)boat. Then convert it so plumbing and such would suit a land life.

No more barnacles. Safe in a typhoon. Lots of room to live on. No sampan needed. Your own village house, in from the sea.

I don't know if it would be possible (or legal), but I like the thinking outside of the box. In this case, thinking outside of the water.

[YeahNahYeah]

This made Bloomberg:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-10-02/floating-dwellings-turn-into-value-traps-for-hong-kong-expats

So now the world knows that "Kiihfuss and her husband, a pilot [...]" are paying a "[...] HK$63,000 monthly mortgage repayment on the houseboat [...]" plus mooring fees (which are quoted at HK$24k pm for a 60' boat) ...

"Regardless, living on the water has long appealed to those seeking an alternative to high-rise city life. Some companies even help to finance debenture purchases and provide boat mortgages. "

not sure what the strategy is here, engender or endanger sympathy from the masses? good thing no mention of stayaboards...

[Slasher1]

Someone suggested the option of finding a spot of land, close enough to sea - where you could drag up your (house)boat. Then convert it so plumbing and such would suit a land life.

No more barnacles. Safe in a typhoon. Lots of room to live on. No sampan needed. Your own village house, in from the sea.

I don't know if it would be possible (or legal), but I like the thinking outside of the box. In this case, thinking outside of the water.

My thinking outside of the box would be (if you didn't have much equity in the boat and could get your assets out of HKG) this might be a good time to walk away from the boat, walk away from the job, stick the bank with the boat (and debt), leave HK, and start a new and happy life. Could be a blessing in disguise.

I'd say it worked during the housing crisis (because it kinda did for some), but unfortunately it didn't stick it to the right people (the banks who lent poorly got bailed out, the wall street scammers skated, and the taxpayers and honest investors got stuck with the bill; although at least it's a bill that'll never be paid).

[unitedabx]

My thinking outside of the box would be (if you didn't have much equity in the boat and could get your assets out of HKG) this might be a good time to walk away from the boat, walk away from the job, stick the bank with the boat (and debt), leave HK, and start a new and happy life. Could be a blessing in disguise.

I'd say it worked during the housing crisis (because it kinda did for some), but unfortunately it didn't stick it to the right people (the banks who lent poorly got bailed out, the wall street scammers skated, and the taxpayers and honest investors got stuck with the bill; although at least it's a bill that'll never be paid).

That would work EXCEPT land property was mortgaged and you could hand back the keys and walk away. Boats are personal loans from lenders. You can't hand the keys back, they don't want them they want their money back and will pursue you relemtlessly worldwide.

[TurningFinalRWY36]

Exactly, you cant just walk away from a debt because it does not suit you anymore. Not how the world works

[Freehills]

Someone suggested the option of finding a spot of land, close enough to sea - where you could drag up your (house)boat. Then convert it so plumbing and such would suit a land life.

No more barnacles. Safe in a typhoon. Lots of room to live on. No sampan needed. Your own village house, in from the sea.

I don't know if it would be possible (or legal), but I like the thinking outside of the box. In this case, thinking outside of the water.

Squatting is illegal in HK. "On squatter control, the Government conducts regular patrols to deter illegal squatting on Government land and leased agricultural land"

[Krone]

Exactly, you cant just walk away from a debt because it does not suit you anymore.

But at least CX guys are having that personal loan debt paid by their company. So its like a company provided rental really, you live for free but nothing at the end of it.

compare this to those livaboard families who are servicing their loans from post taxed salary. Alot do choose the boat option as they cannot afford to buy landed property. No allowances for them . 55k per month out of pocket & 6 million left to pay off.

The lady in the Bloomberg article says to move to an apartment would cost them upto 90000/ month. I mean wtf . There’s plenty to rent here for 20-30k/ month. Spoilt expats comes to mind.

[Air Profit]

Krone, you seem to have a real problem with those people struggling with the boat situation. Nearly every comment you make is mean-spirited and cynical. Basically, you are a first rate a**hole. Noted. Many of those affected are friends and colleagues, and it is devastating them and their families. If you've got nothing good or positive to say, then why don't you just crawl back in whatever hole you came from. What an arse.

[Slasher1]

Exactly, you cant just walk away from a debt because it does not suit you anymore. Not how the world works

Actually, you often can and it often does work this way. Happens all the time with people and even larger entities and corporations (who might have to jump through a few hoops but are effectively doing the same thing).

And sometimes (depending wholly on circumstance) it is the correct moral, ethical, and legal thing to do.

Depends a great deal on the exact circumstance of how it was accrued and on the lending entities ability to make your life difficult wherever you wind up.

Might not work or be a feasible plan in this particular case; not sure of the specifics of who lent what and their ability to recover what they lent wherever the person might wind up. Just trying to think outside the box for those it might help.

I would feel no obligation to pay a lending entity back for a house if that lending entity played a role in later making that house worthless. Or who over optimistically lent money with terms which wound up being a scam.

[unitedabx]

Actually, you often can and it often does work this way. Happens all the time with people and even larger entities and corporations (who might have to jump through a few hoops but are effectively doing the same thing).

And sometimes (depending wholly on circumstance) it is the correct moral, ethical, and legal thing to do.

Depends a great deal on the exact circumstance of how it was accrued and on the lending entities ability to make your life difficult wherever you wind up.

Might not work or be a feasible plan in this particular case; not sure of the specifics of who lent what and their ability to recover.

I would feel no obligation to pay a lending entity back for a house if that lending entity played a role in later making that house worthless. Or who over optimistically lent money with terms which wound up being a scam.

Not for individuals.

[morningcoffee]

I would feel no obligation to pay a lending entity back for a house if that lending entity played a role in later making that house worthless. Or who over optimistically lent money with terms which wound up being a scam.
There was always massive risk attached to purchasing a liveaboard. When I went for finance my lender
1) Wanted a property instead of the boat for collateral as they worried the boat was depreciating faster than the loan was reducing
2) the lender was a second tier finance company who borrowed wholesale and as a result my interest was twice what I would get borrowing from a bank for an apt
3) Questioned buying a liveaboard to maximise dock space vs buying an actual manufactured seaworthy boat that could find a market overseas
4) Questioned the value of the debenture vs the debenture face cost and the total finance package I wanted.
I think you’d be hard pressed to wriggle out of the finance obligation but worth a look.

[Air Profit]

MC: once again, just trying to be the :mad:stirrer. Funny, my two friends in the Marina never had any such questions. I suppose it was probably because they took one look at you and realised you were dodgy on every level, so they decided to up the ante a bit in your case. Basically, as with everything else you say on PP, you are full of sh*t.

[Krone]

AP, you are letting that hot headed temper of yours rule the simplicity of the legal case with livaboards.
Im not been negative, infact im pointing out that as we work for CX, a mortgage or boatloan is paid each month.
Ok you will no longer make anything, but the at the end of the day, its not life savings. You are still employed with full allowances.

The real issue is with those guys who take the monthly payment directly from salary. With no subsidy.

I know there are bankers and financiers on the DB marina who will put the loss down to the acceptable
risk of owning a boat in DB. As morning coffee correctly states above.

Its always been a case of buyer beware and due diligence. Nothing new there, we all do a risk assessment on everything we buy. And then make the choice.

[YeahNahYeah]

Bicker all you want about the past, but what exactly is the plan for the future? As pointed out above, you don't need $90k pm to house a family of five, and there is this bizarre concept of stay at home adults sometimes needing to find work when financial situations change.

Who is the target of the media campaign? RHKYC??

[morningcoffee]

MC: once again, just trying to be the :mad:stirrer. Funny, my two friends in the Marina never had any such questions. I suppose it was probably because they took one look at you and realised you were dodgy on every level, so they decided to up the ante a bit in your case. Basically, as with everything else you say on PP, you are full of sh*t.
Just for Air Profit. HSBC,Standard Chartered, Hang Seng etc etc etc are banks, they do mortgages, they assess risk so they don’t touch liveaboards.

Hitachi Finance isn’t. It’s a Finance Company and is completely and utterly different from a bank. It can’t accept deposits and has to issue bonds or borrow off the secondary market. They do commercial finance worldwide for plant and machinery, I have no idea why they’re in liveaboard finance.

If your mates happily signed at 100-150+ basis points above, I’m not surprised Hitachi didn’t ask questions. Under UK law, I assume Hkg is similar, your dwelling has to be on a plot of land to get a mortgage. No idea why guys are calling it a boat mortgage.

I did sugggest AOA members financially help. Why AP thinks that’s such a sh*t idea, I’ll never know.



Confused?

[unitedabx]

Cheers Mate, ours went fine from export at Eastern Europe to Australia till a birds nest was found inside a wing - then that made for hard times.
Wish you the best. Are you following the boat or staying a while?

Boat has arrived SYD but will not be unloaded until Monday, a day earlier than scheduled. Damage inspection willtake place Monday morning ( standard practice for insurance ) then Customs in the pm. Hopefully, unloaded at dockside and mine by Tuesday.

So f**k you Sloppy Joe

[Bend alot]

I'm following the boat. Gone by Xmas. No futire here.
So you are after a Happy New Year on the real date!

[Bend alot]

Boat has arrived SYD but will not be unloaded until Monday, a day earlier than scheduled. Damage inspection willtake place Monday morning ( standard practice for insurance ) then Customs in the pm. Hopefully, unloaded at dockside and mine by Tuesday.

So f**k you Sloppy Joe

Good news hope all goes well.

[unitedabx]

Good news hope all goes well.

Thanks everyone. Yep I'll be gone on 1/1/2019

[Air Profit]

All the best Unitedabx. Always nice to hear that someone has escaped the asylum.

[Verbal Kint]

[QUOTE][If your mates happily signed at 100-150+ basis points above, I’m not surprised Hitachi didn’t ask questions. Under UK law, I assume Hkg is similar, your dwelling has to be on a plot of land to get a mortgage. No idea why guys are calling it a boat mortgage./QUOTE]

...... because it says ‘mortgage’ on the front page of the loan (mortgage) agreement, MC :ugh:

[unitedabx]

All the best Unitedabx. Always nice to hear that someone has escaped the asylum.

Thanks AP.

[Dan Winterland]

your dwelling has to be on a plot of land to get a mortgage

Boats and aircraft can be mortgaged. I'm not sure if the categorisation of it being your dwelling comes into it.

[TheGreenDragon]

Gold Coast Update.

Prospecting vessel currently moored off the marina wall. Permit to remain on site to do sample work on the subsurface sediment/mud content. Information from Knowledgeable source says
that Sino Land are planning to dredge the marina and the process of mud collection is requirement of the government environment agency to check for contaminants.

Once approval is granted, and we all know it will be, a major dredging activity will take place, deepening the existing channel to the large boat docking area.
Wether Sino Land will use this as an excuse to give boat owners the opportunity to move, is anyones guess. What is forecast is that Sino management want more access for larger vessels, ie the Super Yachts , which currently cannot access the marina as its too shallow.

Rumour : Sino will dredge the main thoroughfare, and, due safety concerns , will require boats currently moored on C Dock(and maybe B dock) to vacate their moorings. As all GC debentures have a three month surrender clause, Sino don't have to be particularly compassionate.

HK , its such a loverly place under the veneer of the World City BS.

[Busbert]

What’s the current status at DB Marina? I’ve heard of the extra 3 months mooring for an additional $150k refundable bond, but no water/electric hookup and no Marina Club.
Are boats being moved out or are people holding out for a change in direction from DBMC?

[morningcoffee]

[QUOTE][If your mates happily signed at 100-150+ basis points above, I’m not surprised Hitachi didn’t ask questions. Under UK law, I assume Hkg is similar, your dwelling has to be on a plot of land to get a mortgage. No idea why guys are calling it a boat mortgage./QUOTE]

...... because it says ‘mortgage’ on the front page of the loan (mortgage) agreement, MC :ugh:
you might need to ask a lawyer about the difference between a mortgage for a dwelling and a “mortgage” for your boat. Though I’m sure you already have.
Hope a solution is found.

[kahaha]

Are boats being moved out or are people holding out for a change in direction from DBMC?

No boats have moved yet, as far as I know. Most owners are expecting a compromise, from HKR or an intervention by the
merine & fisheries dept. Rumour of a temporary mooring area to be established, allowing boats to be left unoccupied, until official moorings can be found.

The marina is forecast to be closed for 3 months. Its expected that HK resorts will then invite current debenture holders to reapply for the new issued debentures. However, the price is expected to be greater than the value of 90% of the majority’s investment , and a specific clasuse of no permanent occupancy to be included.