Air Canada plane from Halifax slides off runway in foggy Toronto

[alph2z]

Air Canada plane from Halifax slides off runway in foggy Toronto

Pics

Air Canada plane from Halifax slides off runway in foggy Toronto - Toronto - CBC News (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/air-canada-ac623-slid-off-runway-1.3999438)

[hr2pilot]

AC623 arrived just after midnight EST (0500Z):

Cyyz 250600z 14002kt 3sm -ra br ovc003 03/03 a2950 rmk ns8 slp997
Cyyz 250542z 08010kt 2sm -ra br ovc003 03/03 a2949 rmk ns8 presfr slp992
Cyyz 250528z 06009kt 3/4sm r15l/p6000ft/u r06l/p6000ft/d r05/6000ft/d r15r/p6000ft/u -shra br vv002 03/03 a2951 rmk fg8 presfr slp998
Cyyz 250515z vrb07kt 3/4sm r15l/2600vp6000ft/u r24r/3000v6000ft/u r15r/3000vp6000ft/u -tsra br vv002 03/03 a2956 rmk fg8 ocnl ltgic

Cyyz 250500z vrb02kt 3/8sm r15l/2800ft/n r24r/3000ft/d r15r/3500ft/u -tsra fg vv001 03/03 a2956 rmk fg8 ocnl ltgic presfr slp018

Cyyz 250450z 22005kt 170v230 3/8sm r15l/3000ft/n r24r/3500v5000ft/u r15r/3500ft/u -tsra vv001 03/03 a2959 rmk fg8 ocnl ltgic presrr slp028
Cyyz 250429z vrb03kt 3/8sm r15l/3000ft/n r24r/3000ft/n r15r/3000ft/d fg vv001 03/03 a2956 rmk fg8 presfr slp017
Cyyz 250400z 12006kt 1/2sm r15l/4500vp6000ft/n r24r/4000v5500ft/d r15r/3000v5500ft/d fg vv002 03/03 a2956 rmk fg8 slp017
Cyyz 250313z 11007kt 1/4sm r15l/2800vp6000ft/d r24r/2600ft/n r15r/3500v4500ft/n fg vv001 03/03 a2956 rmk fg8 slp017
Cyyz 250300z 11007kt 1/2sm r15l/3500vp6000ft/u r24r/3500ft/d r15r/5000ft/d fg vv0

[Airbubba]

Sounds like they had an excursion off of 15R to the right and came back onto the runway. They stopped just north of F1.

They report stopped on the runway at about 2:23 in this LiveATC.net YYZ Tower clip:

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/cyyz/CYYZ-Twr-Feb-25-2017-0500Z.mp3

[ve3id]

Quoting the Air Canada rep, the CBC said:

"She called the incident a "runway incursion" and said there are "no reported injuries for now.""

Surely this was a runway EXcursion?

[twochai]

"no reported injuries for now."

Wait for the lawyers to react!

[rotornut]

No. The courts here are not like the US ones. I really can't see any damages arising from the incident.

[nolimitholdem]

Sure. Right.

AC624 crash. CYHZ, March 2015.

A Nova Scotia judge has ruled Transport Canada will remain a defendant in a class-action lawsuit filed on behalf of passengers aboard an Air Canada flight that crashed at the Halifax airport last year.

Transport Canada can be sued by passengers of Halifax plane crash, judge rules (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/halifax-plane-crash-lawsuit-transport-canada-1.3894398)

AC does seem to struggle on their A320 fleet a bit. Weird that this latest one is (I assume by the flight number) the return flight of the YHZ crash one.

[Airbubba]

Another suit involving that newfangled and unproven experimental grooved runway technology:

A pair of incidents where United Express flights left wet runways at Ottawa’s main airport caused more than $10 million in damage to the two planes, according to the airline, which is suing the federal government, Ottawa International Airport Authority and air traffic controllers in an effort to recoup their losses.

Trans States Airlines and its insurance company have filed separate lawsuits alleging Transport Canada, the airport and Nav Canada were negligent in a June 2010 runway overrun and a September 2011 incident where a plane skidded off the side of a runway.

In the lawsuits, the airline alleges the runways didn’t meet Canadian and international standards because they failed to provide good friction when wet. They also allege that their pilots received inadequate warnings about the weather conditions and state of the runways.

The TSB also noted that Trans States Airlines didn’t provide its pilots with information or adequate training about landing on ungrooved runways in Canada. Grooved runways help to reduce hydroplaning and remove standing water. There are no requirements that runways be grooved in Canada, although grooved runways are common in the United States.

In the meantime, Ottawa’s airport has undergone major upgrades. Runway 07/25 has since been grooved, and runway 14/32 will be grooved next year once new asphalt applied this summer has properly cured. Ottawa is the only major airport in the country to have grooved runways.

Ottawa airport sued over damage to planes that ran off runways | Ottawa Citizen (http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/ottawa-airport-sued-over-damage-to-planes-that-ran-off-runways)

[nolimitholdem]

Hmmm. One airline seems to have a problem keeping it on the runway when everyone else can, but somehow that's the runway's fault? lol

According to the article, Ottawa is the only major airport in the country with grooved runways. Does this mean if Trans State Airlines has to divert they head back to the US?

And I wonder what the training syllabus looks like for "adequate training about landing on ungrooved runways in Canada". Are those different from ungrooved runways everywhere else in the world? hahah!

Sounds like "adequate training for landing" is more in order.

[cossack]

Using E145s with no thrust reversers couldn't possibly be a contributing factor could it? Oh yeah and TSA's callsign ironically is "Waterski."

Groove the runways and pack snow into the grooves. I can't think of that causing any issues regardless of aircraft type.

[rotornut]

nolimitholdem
What are the damages in a legal context? In the Halifax crash two dozen people were injured plus the passengers had to experience cold and discomfort. In this case there were no injuries and the passengers were well taken care of, so I don't think think there are grounds for a lawsuit. However I stand to be corrected if Canadian case law on the law of damages suggests a meritorious cause of action.

[C10mmy]

Surely their choice of runway is questionable given the wx conditions. No precision approach avavilable to 15R, no centre line lights, must have been right on minimum wx to make an approach.

[Airbubba]

Groove the runways and pack snow into the grooves. I can't think of that causing any issues regardless of aircraft type.

Neither can I. Grooved runways are pretty much standard at major airports worldwide in my experience.

They have been around so long in the U.S. that they are considered a museum piece:

https://airandspace.si.edu/multimedia-gallery/14393hjpg

[FlyingCanuk]

Airbubba, me thinks that Cossack may have been using a slight bit of sarcasm
The winter environment in Canada is much different compared to most of the US, and I think he was trying to make the point that if you snowplough / brush a grooved runway there is a possibility of snow and ice accumulating within the grooves on the runway.
Truth or fiction, I can't say

[FlyingCanuk]

ahhhh......here you go

https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/opssvs/managementservices-referencecentre-acs-300-300-008-1724.htm

12.0 WINTER OPERATIONS
Grooves cut into pavement will trap anti-icing/de-icing chemicals, reducing loss of the chemicals, and prolonging their actions. Grooving may also assist in draining melt water and preventing refreezing.
It is important to ensure that applied anti-icing/de-icing chemicals penetrate the grooves to prevent the formation of ice in the grooves.

[nolimitholdem]

rotornut,

I agree the two incidents are very different, the YHZ one far more serious. My point was that it was not correct to suggest that Canada is without litigious passengers. I wasn't trying to debate the merits.

As far as trying to pass blame onto YOW for not having grooved runways, that's simply my idea of a poor carpenter blaming their tools...the lack of grooving is very common internationally and yet most seem to stay on the pavement...

[pfvspnf]

Wonder what the flight experience levels of both the crew are..

[bf109]

you will know when the TSB report comes out, IN 2 OR 3 YEARS !

[Herod]

Wonder what the flight experience levels of both the crew are..

And (sarcasm alert) what the gender mix was.

[Airbubba]

Surely their choice of runway is questionable given the wx conditions. No precision approach avavilable to 15R, no centre line lights, must have been right on minimum wx to make an approach.

No precision approach? What about the ILS/DME 15R? Doesn't that count? :confused:

[cossack]

Surely their choice of runway is questionable given the wx conditions. No precision approach avavilable to 15R, no centre line lights, must have been right on minimum wx to make an approach.
15R has a Cat 1 ILS. Did anyone miss the approach due to the weather? If not, the runway/approach choice is suitable. Thunderstorm activity may have precluded using other approaches.

Sure you can have a long runway but you'll have to fly through a thunderstorm to get there.

Yes there was a hint of sarcasm in my previous post. Its hard enough trying to keep the runways clear during a snow event when we're still expected to push an hourly arrival rate in the 30s. Scraping compacted snow off a smooth runway/taxiway is almost impossible while you are still trying to operate the airport. Braking reports are usually less than favourable on a freshly cleaned runway. Even if you pre-treat, snow will get compacted into the grooves leaving ice patches all over and making the surface unusable. Whose fault will that be?

[cossack]

15R is rarely used however the 2 flat main gear tires will certainly take you for a ride. By what means were the 2 main tires deflated will tell us a great deal of the why.
Does it matter how often it is used? If the weather or condition of other runways require that its used, its used. Its not used often because of the limited capacity a configuration using 15R (and probably 15L) offer. The 15s tend to be used in poor weather with contaminated runways forcing us there with only a 15kt crosswind.

[Kewbick]

That is exactly what I was thinking.. Surely a radar vectored 15R ILS with current (now) wind, WX (CIG and VIS) and RWY SFC conditions with a braking factor thrown in, no fries, were transmitted prior to landing.

Oh well..perhaps a grooved runway surface is coming to an extremely expensive airport near to you soon..by October 2017?..

[alph2z]

Quite a few unusual turns and speed increases to final. May have been cleared to 24 (RL) prior to runway change to 15R.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/ACA623/history/20170225/0045Z/CYHZ/CYYZ

EDIT: I wonder why there's no data below 1000'. Also

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/ac623/#c90599e

[DaveReidUK]

I wonder why there's no data below 1000'.

There is.

You need to adjust the reported height readouts to take account of the prevailing QNH and Pearson's elevation in order to derive heights AAL.

[cossack]

The right and left turns after the hold look like sequencing turns to me. The RNAV STAR normally brings aircraft to the downwind abeam the field where the turn to the NW was made. I don't think this flight was ever going to land on 24R, but I wasn't there. Upper winds are generally from the SW.

What this image does show is the location of the weather which looks bad enough to preclude arrivals/departures from/to the west hence the use of the 15s. The only CATIII runways are 05 and 06L so the weather to the west was stopping aircraft from using them. But the weather was still good enough for aircraft to complete a CATI approach to both of the 15s.

[OD100]

Why no thrust reversers??