400 Million quid for Lossie

[Bannock]

investment at Lossiemouth as one of the RAF’s three fast jet bases - upgrading its runways, taxiways and accommodation for the nine new Poseidon P-8 Maritime Patrol Aircraft and an additional Typhoon squadron;


https://www.gov.uk/government/news/defence-secretary-confirms-17bn-investment-in-scottish-military-bases


FFS... it already exists at Kinloss. £400 million down the swanny IMHO

[Ken Scott]

I had no idea they were closing Lossiemouth........

[Linedog]

Wee Sturgeon will wait until the money is spent and then rebuild Hadrians wall.

[oldpax]

Hadrians wall is in Northumberland not Scotland.

[sitigeltfel]

Hadrians wall is in Northumberland not Scotland.

She has territorial ambitions. :E

[Bigpants]

Once again taxpayers including service personnel will watch the MOD mess it up while the contractors get rich.

Given the small number of movements per year at Lossie compared to a civil airfield why do the runways and taxiways need money spent on them? When were they last resurfaced?

[Jayand]

Bigpants, perhaps it's because the P8 is bigger than the current primary users (Typhoon) that the taxi ways, pans etc need expanding/upgrading??
Bannock, keeping and maintaining Two RAF bases separated by a dozen or so miles is far more expensive in the long run than keeping one and spending cash on an upgrade. Keeping two bases for the sake of 9 extra airframes is poor economics.

[Linedog]

Lossie's taxiways were wide enough to handle Shacks back in my day and I don't believe that they have been reduced in size.

[chopper2004]

Lossie's taxiways were wide enough to handle Shacks back in my day and I don't believe that they have been reduced in size.
P-8 Poseidon exceeds Shack's wingspan by 0.64. P-8 Poseidon is definitely longer than Shack by 13m

cheers

[muppetofthenorth]

P-8 Poseidon exceeds Shack's wingspan bu 0.64

cheers

But are the wheels drastically further apart? Does it matter if 2ft of wing is over the grass?

[Roadster280]

Maybe it's the load bearing capability of the taxiways rather than their dimensions.

Wiki has the MTOW of the Shack at 86000 lbs, the P-8 more than twice as much at 189000 lbs.

Or yet another iteration - perhaps its new taxiways to new parking for them.

It does seem a bit odd to invest 400 million in an MPA base when as you say there's the same thing up the road. What's more, the Royal Engineers are closing Rock Bks (i.e. Woodbridge) and it's an Engineer Regiment in Kinloss.

Maybe the 400m is outweighed by the "through-life costs" of having 3 sites instead of 2.

[Always a Sapper]

Wouldn't they have been better off to take a view between Kinloss and Lossimouth, closing one to flying (put the runways into the runway equivalent of wind and weather so you retain some future capability for when a Oscar pops up in Faslane to say hello and there's a sudden panic to get maritime up and running again). Mean time base a couple of army training regiments there (and the rocks....) to keep the place ticking over and a reason for existence.

At the same time retain RAF Leuchars as a fully funded and operational base. You could, at a pinch even open it up for weekend golfing flight operations.... (both civvie and .... )

Just a thought like.

[dervish]

Lots of speculation that Leuchars will become home to the Black Watch, as well as the crowd who are there now. Popular decision if it goes ahead.

[chevvron]

. Mean time base a couple of army training regiments there (and the rocks....) to keep the place ticking over and a reason for existence
What a silly suggestion. Have you SEEN what the army does to an airfield when it moves in?

[Maxibon]

How do you mean Chevvron? As in Wattisham or Dishforth?

[gamecock]

From the linked article:

Further, Leuchars Station will be expanded to become the main ‘hub’ for Army activity in Scotland.

The P8s (and C40s) visiting Lossie have to backtrack down the main runway and also have to be pushed back on to their parking slots, so further spending on the airfield was always on the cards. Could be worse, the last Voyager had to shut down at the end of the runway and be towed all the way back to the pan for unloading.

[Onceapilot]

Often operated TriStar at Lossie, parking on dissused because of taxiway restrictions. I guess they will build a kipperfleet apron and a gin palace for P8? :rolleyes:

OAP

[Green Flash]

Presume that 400m includes the double shed? Or will Boeing pay for that and will Norway chip in for it's P8 OCU/Maint facility too??

[Sevarg]

400 mil, you could buy anew one for that.

[Roadster280]

What a silly suggestion. Have you SEEN what the army does to an airfield when it moves in?

What a silly comment. The Army doesn't do anything to an airfield when it moves in.

The DIO does, according to requirements. Once it's done its thing, the Army then moves in.

[chevvron]

How do you mean Chevvron? As in Wattisham or Dishforth?
As in Abingdon, Swanton Morley, Catterick, South Cerney, Little Rissington, Brawdy, Leconfield. The Royal Marines also cocked up Chivenor.

[Saintsman]

I still worry about having all your eggs in one basket.

Take Lossiemouth and Brize out and that's a lot of capability gone.

[Linedog]

But it's cheaper. That's all that seems to matter these days.

[Just This Once...]

I still worry about having all your eggs in one basket.

Take Lossiemouth and Brize out and that's a lot of capability gone.

No money for protecting the UK. In the 90's the move away from hardened facilities and dispersal of assets was predicated on there being no threat and at least 10 years notice of a threat from a resurgent Russia.

The 10 years notice has been and gone. Russia is resurgent, has indulged in 'hybrid' warfare whilst pretending not to be involved, plus the odd invasion or annexation. Oh and quite a few Russians living in the UK too, so quite a few options if they choose not to play fair.

Defensively we will be ok if they come at us in 1960s bombers in small numbers. As to why anyone would think that is a credible or likely thing that Russia would do in any potential unpleasantness escapes me.

The UK resides under the Russian SSC-8 umbrella. We have a piece of paper that says Russia should not have developed and deployed this capability, so that will help. Or something.

[newt]

Just ask the SNP about who will be the monarch when they get the independence vote they want! Bet they will not answer until they get the result they want!👿

[BEagle]

newt wrote: Just ask the SNP about who will be the monarch when they get the independence vote they want!

Surely not queen Gnasher Sturgeon?

[Always a Sapper]

Quote:
Originally Posted by chevvron
What a silly suggestion. Have you SEEN what the army does to an airfield when it moves in?
What a silly comment. The Army doesn't do anything to an airfield when it moves in.

The DIO does, according to requirements. Once it's done its thing, the Army then moves in.

Don't be so quick to blame the Army... Have YOU seen what the RAF do to an Airfield when they move out?

[chevvron]

As in Abingdon, Swanton Morley, Catterick, South Cerney, Little Rissington, Brawdy, Leconfield. The Royal Marines also cocked up Chivenor.
Add Debden, Spitalgate,, Oakington, Bassingbourne, Waterbeach.

[EESDL]

Lyneham........

[Roadster280]

Add Debden, Spitalgate,, Oakington, Bassingbourne, Waterbeach.
You could also add Driffield, Kirton-in-Lindsey, Tern Hill, Thorney Island, Hullavington, Lyneham, Cottesmore, Bramcote, Colerne, Woodbridge, Upavon and Topcliffe. And indeed Gütersloh and Brüggen.

But then again, have YOU seen what the RAF does to an airfield when they retain possession?

West Raynham and Watton. Ostensibly put on Care and Maintenance for years, but in reality just left to rot.

Syerston. Despite being an expansion period airfield with the accommodation, messing and hangarage that comes with that, it was left to rot to the point that basically it was demolished and a few small new buildings erected.

Scampton? "Care and Maintenance" my arrse. More like neglect and dereliction.

Honington. Let's build new accn blocks so close to the runway that it can never be used again as such. That's OK, it is no longer required as an airfield, so no problem.

Oddly enough, that's the same reasoning as the airfields the Army were given. No need for airfield infrastructure, so use it for something that is useful.

Don't blame the Army for the conversion of redundant RAF estate into useful assets for other parts of the MOD.

[Green Flash]

Whilst not in the least defending the Army, even they know the advantage of not bu&&ering around with the runways, pans, etc. The utter ba11ache of a road move to Brize - or lob out and in to their home plate?

[Roadster280]

Whilst not in the least defending the Army, even they know the advantage of not bu&&ering around with the runways, pans, etc. The utter ba11ache of a road move to Brize - or lob out and in to their home plate?
One issue is that quite often, the units that occupy former airfields have lots of vehicles. A Signals, Engineer, Artillery, RAC or RLC unit will have a few hundred vehicles, so they don't fly to deployment in the first place. Only light-role infantry really would benefit from having AT pick them up on home turf.

Even then, what's cheaper? Bus the troops to BZZ or maintain the airfield to the point that it can be used, with fire cover etc. I think this is evidenced by how often does this actually occur. Certainly in my time, almost never.

[Maxibon]

Chevvron, still don't understand your point. Why would the Army wish to keep a former flying station in the same order and format as its previous purpose unless it was an RAF rotary airfield becoming and AAC rotary base. Even then the G1 and G4 infra requirements differ. Unless we combine all arms, as per the CAF and retain multi-capability sites. Maybe that was your underlying intent?!

[Pegasus107]

Some people seem to thing real estate is 'owned' by the respective military arm, far from it. The DIO manage the whole estate on behalf of the MOD, the individual arms are only caretakers until the MOD change its use.

A change of use from RAF to Army, or whoever, is better than what happened to old USAFE stations; sold off straight away and turned into giant car or container parks.

Actually what evidence is there of the damage that the Army has caused at any of these locations, and I'm talk of the airfield side of the estate. All locations that have been mentioned have been adapted to suit the 'new' users requirements.

[Davef68]

Getting back to Lossie, I wonder if the arrival of the P8s and associated infrastructure will mean an end for the spotters and the low fences that currently characterise the base

[Cubanate]

Why not re-open RAF Kinloss (keeping the RE there) and operate it as a satellite of Lossie. One Stn Cdr, HQ, OC Ops, OC Eng, etc and each airfield would have a secure diversion close by. The concerns of armed aircraft at Inverness might diminish.

[mymatetcm]

RAF Squires Gate sat empty, a fully functioning international airport. P8 should have gone in there, affordable housing , equidistant nearly from kinloss / st mawgan. and its in England and attractive to the NW workforce

[Harley Quinn]

RAF Squires Gate sat empty, a fully functioning international airport. P8 should have gone in there, affordable housing , equidistant nearly from kinloss / st mawgan. and its in England and attractive to the NW workforce

Not sure the crews would be happy having got to pay £10 airport development tax every time they flew!