Union Membership

[RugbyRugby]

Should the Union accept a member who applies after they have gotten into trouble with the Company?
Years and years to apply, and only now proceeding with application to join.

Flood insurance after the storm?

[CXKA]

I saw that one too, damn cheek! Any union assistance should only be given for events that occurred after joining.

[LongTimeInCX]

He could likely be the sort to subsequently jack in the membership quick smart if the souvlaki ever hits the fan and he's asked to up his contribution levels to help out association coffers for whatever reason.
What were the circumstances of the div?

[TurningFinalRWY36]

Well for new joiner SOs who join prior to the end of their 12 month probationary period there isn't a whole lot of help the union can provide for career ending events such as training etc. Could a same 12 month policy apply here

[broadband circuit]

Could a same 12 month policy apply here

Great idea, except they've already rushed to his aid....

[Oasis]

If that is true, that's a great way to save money, only pay after you need the AOA.

[Michael Hunt]

Saw the bloke in question on HKAOA membership application.
What's the story/ misdemeanour?
He would have close to twenty years in the company and is looking for membership now?

[mngmt mole]

Question: Does the HKAOA have to accept every application? Surely there is a case to be made that certain individuals are not welcome. Just asking.:confused:

[tiger321]

He has applied to the Union, you can still lodge an objection within a certain period if I remember the rules correctly. What did he do that required Union help?
Poor form if he only joined after the event.

[goathead]

Always been very very special this individual, I heard he loves to film his T/O's and LDG's

[MENELAUS]

What. ? Cap'n America. ? Surely he's infallible ?

[ACMS]

I think you all need to wind it down a little, this person is a nice bloke and deserves a fair shake.

[boxjockey]

One of the nicest captains I've ever had the pleasure of flying with. Not sure what has happened, but he is tops in my book.

box

[MENELAUS]

Well that is a subjective opinion; and the whole point is whether he should be allowed to join the union now in his moment of need, when, for the past 20 years or so he hasn't deigned to do so.

[Mill Worker]

I would recommend giving new hires a period of time to settle in, join the dots etc prior to joining a branch of the AOA. Beyond 1-2 years applications for membership should be welcomed but with some sort of penalty rate related to number of years not a member of a union. There may be the odd few people out there that are members of other unions outside HK (because they are based) so they should be welcomed without penalty, i.e. they have been paying for representation somewhere.

[Natca]

Thats bullsh* - each union member should and is able to join at anytime and shall recieve the support of the union esp as a new hire. Join from day one no question... now as far as this particular case he bring him on, show our good will to help. Dont drink the cx coolaide and limit membership.

[kenfoggo]

The chap in question is a colleague and fellow professional. He may feel that he needs help from the AOA. Please try and not act like the low quality human beings that some of you are. Let him join and then give him any assistance he needs.

[CXKA]

So its ok to piggy back for free for all those years and then when finds himself in need of help goes cap in hand to the union? The years of fees he has saved will easily cover a private lawyer. Its got nothing to do with him being a nice guy its about principles.

I didn't enter the Lotto this weekend but now I know the numbers I suppose I can just put them down and claim the prize?

[RAT Management]

Sounds to me like someone has been able to have their cake and eat it too. Good for him, its pretty hard to get this sort of a deal these days.


I think we are all jealous we have been paying bucks for an under performing union with a side serve of an insurance policy in case we get on the wrong side of the company.


He played a smart hand and got lucky. I just hope what ever it is he comes out fine.


I would rather the union fight for something or someone, because at the moment we are pretty much floating on a rudderless raft.

[Michael Hunt]

With the AoAs track record on just about everything I would be off to find the nearest high priced lawyer rather than consulting the Perpetual holders of the Amateur Hour trophy.

[theCOMEDIAN]

I have had the displeasure of flying with this capt a few times. Whilst yes, he's a very nice person, he made it abundantly clear to me and the others in the cockpit that he wasn't part of the AOA because he 1) thought they were toothless 2) thought it was a waste of money 3) stated that he will get the new fought for contract without putting his neck on the line.
Furthermore, he made it known that he applied a few times for training whilst the training ban was on. He said he didn't get in the first time, but knew they were desperate and reapplied under the assumption that he'll get in due to the lack of applicants. He did not however.
This guy, as nice as he is, is a snake and has had no issue undermining and under cutting his fellow pilots for his own personal gain.
I say tell him to stay in LV and fight his own battles. He's not willing to help us, we should not be willing to bail him out now he's up sh*t creek without a paddle.

[MENELAUS]

Re the NZ members. They have to sign Cos 08 to go on the Perth base and all
the company has to do is to refuse it, surely. ? That was the whole point of the original court case was it not ?

[Brokeidiot]

If the people on here feel so strong about it then I would suppose there would be equal number of objections handed into the AOA...

[Rod F]

Fake News Alert.


I know this is rumour network, but Anotherday is spouting mis-information about the NZ Age Discrimination case that is potentially damaging to the HKAOA.


1. The litigants in the NZ case have not taken Perth bases. Even if they did;


a. Under their COS it can be argued they are entitled to do so. They are exercising the same rights as all of us.
b. They are only able to bid for the Perth base because the HKAOA's actions delayed their forced retirements. Would that not be a success for the HKAOA?

2. The case has yet to be decided. It is going to final appeal. Whilst the case proceeds the two litigants remain employed. Are the HKAOA's objectives not being achieved?


3. The costs outlined by Anotherday are grossly over-inflated. I am not going to discuss actual numbers, but to say the costs are 10 times over-stated would not be far from the truth. That said, no matter what the cost, the HKAOA will take all measures to defend its Members, particularly when some form of discrimination is involved. As a modern-thinking, progressive organization, the HKAOA will use all means at its disposable to oppose discrimination - all Members should be proud of that fact.


I have come on this forum because it is important that non-members and the Company understand the HKAOA's position and mischievous misinformation should not be allowed to pervert debate.


Rod F
Chairman 2014-16

[Brokeidiot]

If the people on here feel so strong about it then I would suppose there would be equal number of objections handed into the AOA...

[MENELAUS]

Care to elaborate on said creek sans paddle ?

[corrigin]

I've flown with the said individual on many occasion, and found him to be a gentleman. Don't know where some you get your animosity towards him. Instead of vilifying him, how about finding out the facts first? Oh, that's right, just like our management style, he's guilty till proven innocent.
Comedian, I can attest that he only applied once and that was before the training ban. Ever since the ban was enforced, he hasn't reapplied nor is he interested in doing so again. He and I had conversations regarding why he wasn't a member, and I understood his reason (didn't agree nor disagreed - I listened). I don't recall him ever speaking ill of the AOA, membership, or anything else even remotely close to what you've stated. You're certainly entitled to your opinion, though. Just my two cents, though.

[Oasis]

I'm sure he'll quit the union as soon as his little problem, whatever it is, is fixed...
He can then 'give back' by becoming a trainer.

Has anyone called in with an objection yet?

[Michael Hunt]

Okay, what are we talking here?
One of the ' dodgy diversions' last month or something worse?
Thought they had been dealt with. Tea and bikkies,a quick review of the FCOM and a sim session and off you go.
Not correct?

[TurningFinalRWY36]

what were the dodgy diversion

[Michael Hunt]

Two diversions that were more down to a lack of systems knowledge rather than meteorological or technical difficulties.
Boeing newsletter February edition.

[MENELAUS]

Most unions ( worthy of the name ) have a probationary period post joining to prevent this sort of insurance "tourism". Balpa ( from memory ) around 6 months, could be a year.
Two diversions ? Niiice. Needs his tech knowledge re-appraising then.

[corrigin]

There were two diversions that were more down to a lack of systems knowledge; not the said individual involved in two diversions.

Why ruin a good rumour when the facts aren't all obtained first, right?

[Cpt. Underpants]

I think we should help him.
Choosing to resign from, or not be a member of, a union, is a moral choice.
OK, now we all know there are deficiencies in this guy's character. So be it.
By being tossers we're all lowering ourselves.
We should take the high road and do the right thing.
That way, there will be no doubt as to who the w@nkers are.
Flame away.

[Natca]

I think this is a more of the lines of seeing the true colors of the company and what they really care of an employee, hell be a member for awhile is my guess after seeing this.

[ACMS]

As much as I don't like it he's within his rights not to join the AOA in the past, many haven't......goodness some have resigned:eek:

This should be used as a living example WHY we should all be in the AOA.......Showing we are a compassionate bunch of professionals able to rise above petty disagreements and grow as a group.

Anyway, he is a decent fella and worthy of the assistance of his colleagues.

So stop all this bs attacking and STFU.

[RugbyRugby]

Further;

Would his membership still be welcome if it were to become know the following:

He called a GC member for help.
The GC member called other members and provided assistance.
The AOA assembled at the company, and helped in dealings with company.
The entire time the prospective member FAILED to disclose his NON-member status. While graciously accepting the help.
Only after did it come to light that he was not a member.

He had the CO-JONES to ask for help and not disclose that he was not a member.

The AOA failed in it's assumption that a PILOT calling it's hotline was automatically a member..

Do we want that kind of Member?

[Oasis]

I have to say that if that is true, I am cringing at the amateurism of the AOA by not checking someone's status, what else is going by the wayside?

I can almost not believe this, as it would be so incredibly childish for said individual to pull a stunt like that.

Then again, people do strange things when backed into corner.

[MENELAUS]

Well this individual has never lacked cojones. IF he has done as suggested and used the aoa in such a cavalier fashion then he should be black balled. Decency or not. Otherwise what's the point of paying our dues ? Think I'll resign tomorrow, make a fairly major expensive stuff up, and then call on the aoa for help ? Save me a fortune.
If he is allowed in he should be charged back dues, and they should be donated to the Sunnyside Club or some other deserving charity.
Pretty sure it's against ALPA rules, or certainly the intent of ALPA rules, for that matter

[SweepTheLeg]

The AOA needs to take the high road and accept him.

Yes, I agree it would have been much better if he were already a member and it's poor form on his part that he's joining only now when it suits him. Some people just have to learn the hard way.

But the AOA as a whole is above all of this. We should show some compassion to one of our own, even if we don't agree with what he did. Any one of us could be in his situation with the Company on the war path these days. Look at the fleet office. Protecting their boys from the pressures above? I don't think so... they're looking for the next person to be thrown under the bus... if that isn't something to rally and solidify the AOA's membership, I don't know what is.

[FlexibleResponse]

I would vote take him onboard the Union immediately and help him to the fullest extent possible.

Charge him back-dues for Union membership for every year he was employed at CX up to a maximum of say 5 years.

[BusyB]

That would be fair Flex

[RAT Management]

make him the chairman of the AOA!

[RAT Management]

after all, he managed to seduce a deal worth having for himself...!

[LongTimeInCX]

Well as he's only so far applied to join the HKAOA, that doesn't necessarily mean at this stage that his application has been accepted. Why don't a number of you who are HK members make written objections voicing your reasons.
Personally, I would accept him, with the calculations of the standard fees from day one when he joined CX, include the extra we paid for the 49ers, (if he's been around that long) and once he's transferred the whole amount, accept him and offer help.

Agreed, the union need to have a more robust system in place to stop non member scammers like this abusing our resources. Get a grip GC.
And listen to your membership ffs!

['round midnight]

He can join on the proviso that he volunteers his time, pro bono, helping out the various HKAOA committees for, lest say, the next 24 months, at the Chairman's discretion.
Pay it forward, sort of.

[Trafalgar]

I have been a dues paying member for 20 yrs +. That includes during the 49'er episode where subscriptions were increased to support the affected members (and their families) who were terrorized by the company. Now, it seems that I have been a fool. I could have kept all the money over this past two decades, knowing that when I needed the AOA's help, I could join retroactively and expect the full support as though I had been contributing to the wellbeing of our membership all along. Silly me. If this comes to pass, I will resign from my membership, and send the GC a letter telling them exactly why. This is disgusting on so many levels. There are responsibilites, morals and commitments involved in supporting an association. To allow this person to join now, without any financial penalty would be obscene. In fact, at this point I wouldn't believe the AOA GC if they stated he had 'paid' a penalty. There has to be an example made to the wider pilot community that there is in fact a difference between being a member, and freeloading on the actual memberships financial commitments. No better lesson would be taught than for the entire pilot body to know that if you choose to spend many years freeloading, when push comes to shove, you lie in the bed you chose. NO to membership for this individual.

[MENELAUS]

Don't usually agree with a lot that Traf says; however he's right on the money with this one.
If morally, or for historical or other reasons, you choose not to join the AOA, then fine, that is your rightful choice. This stunt, however, is bludging at it's worst, and is just taking the poverbial.

[ACMS]

Instead of being negative why don't we use this terrible situation as an opportunity to show all and sundry the exact reasons why they should join.
I've been a member for 20+ years like you and I can completely understand what you say, however let's use this to our advantage.

[Trafalgar]

Umm, how exactly are we to 'use' this to our advantage? I think making it plainly clear that there is a heavy price to be paid for NOT being a member over the years is very much using this to our advantage.

[drfaust]

Why not just do both? Let him join the AOA, but don't use any union resources to help with a problem that happened before he joined.

Or am I being too simplistic?

[Trafalgar]

There has to be a consequence for freeloading on the backs of paying members for 20 years. Now, he needs helps and decides to 'join'. NO. Too late, and it will be a good example to others.

[corrigin]

Ok, I'll bite...
I'm reading the above posts of people threatening to leave the AOA if he is approved for membership. Really? Is this what we as a pilot group should feel? Now that the Company is slowly tightening the screws with our contracts, we are thinking of the segregation of a potential member or abandonment of the AOA from a standing member(s)? What have we become?

Why don't we all take a deep breath and try to find a solution in a rational manner rather than partake in a 'stone-the-heretic' view by what we've heard from other than the parties involved?

Michael Hunt mentioned about diversions and the response was "Two diversions ? Niiice. Needs his tech knowledge re-appraising then." Again, before we cast a decision, how about we obtain the facts? (Globocnik this is not a personal attack against you) - I'll apologise to you right now if I am incorrect; I don't read posts #35,#36 and #37 the way you do.

Regardless whether he was involved in one...two...ten per month diversions, the question raised by RugbyRugby is whether he should be allowed to join and whether there is "an abuse of membership." If there is a decision made that "yes, in fact, there was an abuse of membership," then the membership should decide what the consequence should be (from what 'round midnight's suggestion, post #52, to Tafalgar's suggestion, of NO membership, #53.

Before we allow tempers to flare, how about we possibly obtain and consider all the facts rather than go by speculation.

I feel there are lessons to be learnt in more ways than just ethical.

As Anotherday previously stated, "Flame away."

[MENELAUS]

He's already had the help; and more fool us. A complete disincentive to paying union dues.

[Trafalgar]

To the GC. Wake up you lot. Seriously, can you imagine operating an insurance company like this: "pay no premiums, for years....until you need help, then we'll cover you". Are we really that bankrupt on common sense? Either you join the union in a reasonable time frame, or you don't. That's fine. Just don't come crying when you need the help the AOA offers. Unbelievable. This is an issue that goes to the core of what the AOA stands for, the value of it's membership and the true cost of not joining. This individual made a choice over two decades. He is not welcome now.

[Trafalgar]

.....and if I see him in dispatch with a red lanyard....

[OK4Wire]

....I'll check to make sure he hasn't signed on early.

[SweepTheLeg]

Just curious, exactly what did the union do to help him in this situation? Specifics please...

How would his outcome have been any different without the Union's help?

[Dragon69]

Some of you need to get off your high horses. I stopped counting the number of members who frequently worked on G days and who took training positions prior to CC. Oh that's right I forgot, there wasn't a directive from the AoA so it made it ok! what BS! Who did you think you were helping by training cheaper replacements? What about paying us all a penalty for aiding the company and helping them lower our CoS.

Let's face it, this isn't about morality, it's pure financial jealousy. And spare me the.."I paid the higher dues to the 49ers". It was the same AoA membership that turned its back on them when the higher dues started to become an inconvenience a few years later, but lets not rehash the past by bringing up embarrassing truths.

And what about the non member 49er. Didn't he lose his job as a result of actions taken by the AoA. As far as I am aware there was no assistance provided. Where is the morality there?

If this individual is being unjustly treated by the company, it is the AoAs duty to do something about it. What can happen to him can eventually happen to anyone, including a 3 months AoA member.

[MENELAUS]

No, I'm sorry, it's not the AOA's duty to do something about it if he isn't a member in good standing ferchrissakes. ! Otherwise, as has been pointed out ad nauseum, what's the point of paying dues ?
Individuals who took training jobs, or worked on g days prior to the ban were doing what they were entitled to do; morally questionable perhaps, however in the absence of a directive from the membership their right.
If somebody f@cks up, twice as it would appear, and is a non member then f@ck em, let them get to n with it,that the price of non-membership.
Just off to feed the horse a nose bag; a high one.

[Dragon69]

it's not the AOA's duty to do something about it if he isn't a member in good standing ferchrissakes.

You are arguing something different . The main argument of this thread is whether the AoA should provide assistance, AFTER he has become a member, when he has been a non member all this time.

if somebody f@cks up, twice as it would appear, and is a non member then f@ck em

I don't know the facts and I am fairly certain that you don't either.

Just curious though, and you think it would be ok to defend a member who f@cks up twice? Or should the AoA rewrite the rules to state three strikes and no assistance.

Individuals who took training jobs, or worked on g days prior to the ban were doing what they were entitled to do; morally questionable perhaps, however in the absence of a directive from the membership their right.

Just as it is his right to join under AoA rules, morally questionable, but still his right.

[Progress Wanchai]

Dragon69,

It's his right to apply, not to join. It's the current members right to reject any application as they see fit. He wouldn't be the first applicant to be denied membership.

The concerned individual has a history of commenting on why he's not a member. And his concerns are not unreasonable. In fact, they're much the same concerns that many lifetime AOA members also have. However, we've decided that the pro's still outweigh the con's. This persons scales were weighted differently and that's a decision he'll have to live with. What sort of precedent would this send? Run off the end of a runway and the last item on the evacuation checklist is "submit AOA application". "Check".

At the very least the GC should interview him and make a determination if he's really seen the light or it's just a marriage of convenience.
That's our right Dragon. Non-members don't have rights.

[Dilbert68]

What exactly did this guy do to end up in this situation? If he has really screwed the pooch, there isn't much the AOA can do for him except ensure the D&G procedure is correctly followed.
Member or not, the company is always looking for people to chop to keep the rest of the troops ducking for cover. Especially when they can replace a pilot on expat terms with a cheap replacement.

[Avinthenews]

As said above, AOA coverage should begin the day the application is approved. No back dating an incident.

GC screw up = yes
Happen again = no

He probably wants his application to be rejected, he's got what he came for.

[MENELAUS]

And that Avin... is it in a nutshell.

[Dragon69]

Another day, you are one of the most pro company posters that I know of. I'm actually surprised you are even in the union. So typical though. Too scared to pick a fight with the company, much easier to pick on one harmless individual isn't?

[broadband circuit]

why don't we use this terrible situation as an opportunity to show all and sundry the exact reasons why they should join.

Great idea. No assistance for non-members. I think that's a pretty strong message.

How about the AOA taking legal action against him? Is there potentially a case of fraud here in that there was a deception by requesting and utilising member services whilst failing to disclose membership status, or lack of membership???

[Oasis]

What's the point of membership if they help everyone?

What would be the incentive to join!

Seriously thinking about leaving if this is not addressed.

The silence is deafening over at the forums, everyone too afraid to talk about it...

[corrigin]

[QUOTE] "He's already had the help; and more fool us. A complete disincentive to paying union dues." [QUOTE]


Did pilots accept positions here during the hiring ban, only to be allowed to join later?
Or those that have previously scabbed in U.S airlines, have been accepted as members...

Who fooled who?

Dragon69 said it best, "If this individual is being unjustly treated by the company, it is the AoAs duty to do something about it. What can happen to him can eventually happen to anyone, including a 3 months AoA member".

I reiterate my previous post, #61, "Before we allow tempers to flare, how about we possibly obtain and consider all the facts rather than go by speculation."

[betpump5]

I reiterate my previous post, #61, "Before we allow tempers to flare, how about we possibly obtain and consider all the facts rather than go by speculation."

Facts, Corgie congee corneto whatever your name is? Err...well its in the AOA comms for you to read. A captain, 20 years in the company wishes to join the union. Nothing speculative about that.

[betpump5]

Should the Union accept a member who applies after they have gotten into trouble with the Company?

No. Next question...

[Tea time]

This is exactly why motor insurance policies are date and time stamped . Otherwise why bother to insure your car Wait until you have an accident then apply for insurance , saving you from all those pesky premiums throughout the years that you drive and don't have an accident .

So should this individual be allowed to join . Absolutely !! BUT. there should be no input to the company on his behalf by the AOA relating to this issue either immediately or any time in the future .

[Xwindldg]

Chairman and/or GC would have known he wasn't a member.... unbelievable!

[OK4Wire]

Bollocks, ex-wing! And if you had ever served on the GC, you would exactly how these things happen, i.e. you are the "duty officer" and some guy calls you out of the blue and presents himself as a member asking for advice. He seems friendly and seems to know the drill. As duty officer you can never imagine that someone would have the gall to act so fraudulently. So you start off helping him. What happens after that, well that's going to be looked at, isn't it?

Stick to your pro-company propaganda.

[Captain Dart]

Hey, I've just bought a new car. After this, I won't bother insuring it until after I have an accident. Then they'll pay up...won't they?

[BusyB]

OK4Wire,

As an ex-GC member I would always ask if a caller was a current member. Are you saying that he claimed to be a member????

[OK4Wire]

No, but I believe he "allowed the impression that he was a member" to continue.

You are smarter than me; I didn't always ask.

[theCOMEDIAN]

Recently a member of the GC took a personal phone call from a non-member pilot who was involved in an operational matter. This was not an official 'hotline' call, however the GC Member was asked for assistance. Under the assumption the pilot was a Member, that assistance was given. It was only after providing this assistance did this pilot admit that he was in fact not a Member.
We do not hold the GC Member involved accountable for his actions - he was doing what he thought was in the best interest of the pilot. However we are disappointed that a non-member pilot would actually reach out and request AOA assistance in such circumstances.
We are looking at changing our internal procedures, like requiring Members to identify themselves by their AOA ID number prior to initiating any assistance, but that does not correct what has happened. This pilot concerned has subsequently applied to join the HKAOA which either can be considered a victory for the HKAOA, or a devaluation of the 'value' of Membership. This issue is currently being debated at the GC who will ultimately decide on the application. We encourage all Members to write to the GC with opinions either way as so to help stimulate this conversation.




This is an utter disgrace

[goathead]

What's really important in the latest update is the 'head in the sand 'position this current President and GC is taking towards a very well pointed out ' payrise negotiations ' that our union doesn't want to know about and rightfully pointed out by our incumbent pres, you get what you voted for folks .

And yet here we all are bickering about a completely unimportant trivial aspect of union management . Why not more outrage about the overdue pay talks.... f##% me

[Trafalgar]

Payrise negotiations: important.

Union member issue: also important. If you can avoid paying dues for almost 20 years, then get the same assistance as if you've always been a member, I think the key fundamental regarding membership has been killed off. I suggest that this is actually more important than the ongoing industrial issues, and is a stab at the very heart of the AOA. No to membership, unless he backpays about 20yrs worth of dues.

[AQIS Boigu]

Requesting AOA membership 5 mins before your imminent interview or D&G is comparable with going into training at 54 1/2 to get an extension.

People like these have no real interest rather than self preservation (such as work beyond 55 back in 2007/8 or to "survive a meeting" with the CP).

I can't believe some of our colleagues interpret this as a win since we gained another member.

[Trafalgar]

AQUIS.....I can believe it :ugh:

[Oasis]

A chain is only as strong as its weakest link, do we really need a weak link?

What will this individual do if the fit hits the shan?

[Dragon69]

The hostility shown by some of our regular hardened keyboard warriors toward one individual amazes me. But since these same Haka dancers have already denounced any form of elevated industrial action that threaten their precious employment, we unfortunately are stuck with CC.

CC is more effective with each new member, since that's one less member that could potentially become a trainer or G day worker. So you would think that these so called union minded warriors would overlook their petty jealousy and welcome another member for the greater good of the pilot body. But no, it's far better to alienate the individual so you can feel good about yourself that your dues all these years has given you an exclusive privilege as you privately perform the Haka dance in front of your bedroom mirror.

[corrigin]

I simply do not understand the reason for the hostility, plain and straightforward.

If the said individual had a history of violations/issues against either his fellow colleagues or work, then I would agree with some of the sentiments shared among the hardcore.

I don't know the full circumstances, so I can't comment; what is evident, though, is the amount of hypocrisy exhibited by some here.

[betpump5]

Haha. You jest. How many G Days has this clown worked in the last 20 years?

You can't even call this guy a prodigal son coming back to the fold after seeing the errors of his ways. He wasn't one of us to start with!

[Fly747]

He is like the guy who doesn't stand his round in the pub, you don't really want him in your circle. Same thing; this guy is happy to stand supported by others' contributions .

[Xwindldg]

The fact that he basically lied about being a member is the icing on the cake. It was written on the forum, what about the guys who were fee paying members for many years who were asked to leave because they joined training, worked a G, etc...? Those guys get the boot but a guy who free loaded for nearly 20 years(!!!!!) then lied about being a member because he suddenly needed help is welcomed with open arms?

This union is seriously f***ked up if he's allowed to join.

[corrigin]

I don't know betpump5 how many G days he has worked, but you seem to know the facts so go on and enlighten us. Better still, provide the proof (cut and paste) in the AOA forum as supporting evidence to your claim.

Xwindldg, you may want to re-read the Chairman's promulgation. He never mentioned anything about claiming to be a member......but why let a rumour ruin a good story.
Paying members have not been asked to leave for working 'a' G day. They've worked multiple on a regular basis and have blatantly disregarded CC.

With attitudes like this, who wins? The pilot group or management?

[Xwindldg]

Corrigin,

They were paying the AOA their hard earned money, while this guy didn't pay $1 for almost 20 YEARS! Huge slap in the face for the fee paying members. He benefitted from every negotiated payrise and from anytime the members stuck their necks out with industrial action for almost 20 years. Like someone said earlier, he should be put up for the AOA presidency if he's allowed in, he's absolutely brilliant to be able to get this deal.

[Xwindldg]

"Blatantly disregarding CC"......... does sitting on the sidelines bludging off your colleagues for almost 20 years compare to that?

[corrigin]

"does sitting on the sidelines bludging off your colleagues for almost 20 years compare to that?"

No Xwingldg, there's no comparison between the two; just as there isn't in accepting scabs from previous airlines or new hires that took positions during the AOA's hiring ban promulgation.

My point is that unless you know what the full circumstances are with this individual (I certainly do not), we should refrain from making such a confident decision.

Alternatively, then let's start cleaning the membership by also removing those members who are scabs or undertook positions as I previously mentioned. Then it's a level field. Then it's fair.

[RugbyRugby]

So it looks like the member in question has been admitted after a very close vote in the GC 53/47.. Decided by only 1 vote if my math is correct.

Sunny Side Club is benefitting from the result. I would conclude that our membership has been significantly diluted. 1 years payment to Sunny Side for 1/16 (yrs in CX) the value of membership. What a great deal.

[Hugo Peroni the IV]

Augurs well for future negotiations I fear!

[BusyB]

A "number of years" is one is it? :ugh::ugh:

[Michael Hunt]

The farce that is the HKAOA continues to deliver like the mailman.
This is like the three stooges but there is 12 of them.
If this is the same rationale that we use when negotiating with CX no wonder we have been getting rolled for thirty years.

[Captain Dart]

No point guessing. The head of the HKAOA is a trainer, happily training his cheap replacements and diluting his own contract.

And he is literally wearing his CX hat in his thumbnail portrait attached to Association updates! Hmmmm.

[Bangaluru]

Fake News Alert.


I know this is rumour network, but Anotherday is spouting mis-information about the NZ Age Discrimination case that is potentially damaging to the HKAOA.


1. The litigants in the NZ case have not taken Perth bases. Even if they did;


a. Under their COS it can be argued they are entitled to do so. They are exercising the same rights as all of us.
b. They are only able to bid for the Perth base because the HKAOA's actions delayed their forced retirements. Would that not be a success for the HKAOA?

2. The case has yet to be decided. It is going to final appeal. Whilst the case proceeds the two litigants remain employed. Are the HKAOA's objectives not being achieved?


3. The costs outlined by Anotherday are grossly over-inflated. I am not going to discuss actual numbers, but to say the costs are 10 times over-stated would not be far from the truth. That said, no matter what the cost, the HKAOA will take all measures to defend its Members, particularly when some form of discrimination is involved. As a modern-thinking, progressive organization, the HKAOA will use all means at its disposable to oppose discrimination - all Members should be proud of that fact.


I have come on this forum because it is important that non-members and the Company understand the HKAOA's position and mischievous misinformation should not be allowed to pervert debate.


Rod F
Chairman 2014-16

His facts may be exaggerated and/or false. But his sentiment is correct.

[line_driver]

Just so as we can all be completely clear what appears to have gone down here chaps -

I have looked back at a snapshot on membership status taken at the end of the 49er financial support period. The Unions newest member was listed as " EX ".
What this means is that the individual had resigned from the Union prior to the end of this dark and difficult period in our unions history. He'd cut and run. Decided he didn't want to stick his neck out, didn't want to contribute to assist his brothers who had been sacked, didn't want to stand by the rest of you that had the fortitude to do what you knew was right. Since that time he has benefited in many ways from that decision, taken advantage of his position as a non-member whilst continuing to benefit from the hard work the union has undertaken defending our contract.
I recall in the wash up after the deal that was reached on the 49ers, discussing with a GC member the implications of allowing quitters back into our Union. I told him the only thing that would make me think twice about staying was allowing quitters back in .... we were better off without them - far better a smaller membership made up of people you could trust and depend on, then one diluted by the selfish and spineless. The GC member told me that they were aware that guys like me might leave as a result of a decision to " broaden the membership " , but that the number of members leaving would be far less than those that would rejoin - this was therefore deemed an acceptable trade off, pragmatic I expect. Risk losing members that stayed the course throughout the most difficult period in our unions history, in the belief we would be better off by taking in anyone at all.
It seems this mindset is at work once again, are we really prepared to overlook the character of applicants in the hope that it won't matter ?
I can tell you it does matter, that the individual concerned should be ashamed, and that the GC should take pause to reflect on just what they have done.

[Trafalgar]

WTF...?? Excuse me: are you saying that he was a member at one time? And that he cut and run because of the increased cost of membership post 49er situation? If that is the case, he needs to be immediately expelled. I am in a state of disbelief on this. It was bad enough when I believed he decided to join because he had got in trouble and then fooled our GC member into believing he was a member, and received help. Now, it appears that not only was he once a member, but he resigned when the 'going got tough'. Well, I expect a clear answer to this from the GC. If this is the case, and he is not expelled, I am resigning. This AOA is not fit for purpose if that is how business is done. Clarity, NOW. :mad:

[Trafalgar]

DS. If this is in fact the case regarding this 'member', you and the GC should be utterly ashamed of yourselves. This is an insult to all the long standing and loyal membership. He needs to be turfed out, now.

[McNugget]

WTF...?? If this is the case, and he is not expelled, I am resigning.

No, you aren't.

[Oasis]

Jeez trafalgar, lay off the red wine, it makes you angry.,.

[Trafalgar]

McNugget. Why don't you address the real issue. If you are a member, then i'm all ears as to your own opinion on this? Which is...?

[McNugget]

McNugget. Why don't you address the real issue. If you are a member, then i'm all ears as to your own opinion on this? Which is...?

I'm in agreement with 47% of the GC. So are you.

My point is, you won't do anything about it, despite all your vinegar and venom.

[The Visionary]

Guys, this is honestly going to be the least of the AOAs worries come May/June. Big cuts are coming and you better be prepared. In other words, have your houses in order. All this chest thumping and false bravado is not going to prepare you. Major medical benefit cuts, housing, allowances and freighters. If I've got your attention then GOOD.

The AOA dropped the ball years ago and more cuts to our careers are coming. Fighting over one member has got your eye off the ball and this is what the company does best, catch you off guard. Distraction is the AOAs biggest enemy and they get distracted a lot.

Honestly, I am not being an alarmist. Big things are about to happen and you better be ready. I do not believe the AOA and the membership are.

[MENELAUS]

And your source(s) is /are ? Oh yes, I forgot. You're a visionary. Not saying it couldn't happen knowing this crowd, however picking a full blown fight which will only escalate won't do " time to win " ( nor Project Altitude) much good, one would have thought.

[The Visionary]

Hey Globocnik, save your condescending tone for someone else ass hat. My sources are many and I'm trying to let you know what's coming. You must me one of them because that's how they talk. Geez I'm not going to miss this place.

[MENELAUS]

Thank you for the considered response dogbreath. One of them ? Wtf's that mean. ? Condescension. Moi?
Anyhoo, if you are going to post vicarious scaremongering ****e like that ( as you are apparently out of here) then surely you have to back it up ?

[betpump5]

Rod,

When the time comes to vote for a new Chairman, I hope you apply. You certainly have my vote.

[The Visionary]

Gentlemen, Not here. I will not be specific here for obvious reasons. It is not scare mongering and I'm not a "scared little baby", quite the opposite in fact as I think what is coming will backfire on them. My point is, we've seen this before so what I am implying is not out of the realm of complete possibility. I am simply telling you things are coming. You will just have to trust me. You can fight with me and throw stones or whatever you'd like. I am trying to prepare you so you are not surprised is all.

The vague friday updates, and particularly ATs last one, should raise some flags. Last weeks HFC "party" should also be a flag.

So please, just have your house in order and be prepared. If I told you a major storm was coming to the Northeast USA last week, in mid March nonetheless, your responses probably would have been the same but it's happening now isn't it???

We now return to our regular programming.

[ACMS]

If I had a dollar........:bored: