Hong Kong Airlines (HKA)

[flyer25]

Disclaimer(s):

For the usual pubescent grammar police, let me just say I am not writing a Master’s Thesis for a grade; just putting out what might be helpful to someone with questions regarding Hong Kong Airlines (HKA)

SYNOPSIS: It’s a place, if you need a job. I categorize airlines into better places, worst places, and ****ty places. HKA is in the worst place category and if you go to HKA, you will find out why for yourself. Things to consider: Housing is expensive in Hong Kong (HK), you will need a large deposit to settle in Hong Kong (3 months rent), School fees are extra-ordinarily high, you are taxed in Hong Kong generally based on 1.5 times your first years salary for the first year (approx. 15% single w/out kids, 10% with family), cars are expensive and getting around can be a pain at times, and HKA doesn't have a real commuting contract. Recommend Hong Kong Express (HKE); It's a better place simple because of the following (However, my friends there say it's not much different): More days off (The sector lengths are much longer and it's not very hard to get to 80-95 hours block at HKE; Higher monthly pay (Because of the higher block times, both FOs and CAPTs make more money than HKA); better management team (however, my friends say this is a thin distinction); upgrades for FOs have sucked for years at HKE; and of course, you are still in HK. At HKA, current upgrade times to be offered an upgrade at HKA is +4 years JAN 2017, if (IF) they like you and certain things are in line in your file.


TRAINING

Well right now, you get 4 weeks in a hotel (this is a recent change as of a year ago 2016, when they had to concede they needed to something) when you join and that’s it. Your first pay check will take about 4-6 weeks, depends how fast you can get the paperwork into the office. You will be given a map with photographs of buildings and addresses to start your Easter Egg hunt or a Hash run around Hong Kong get your HK ID, bank accounts, and others items in between training events. It's important to note, you can wash out here. But HKA is so desperate they will give you multiple opportunities to pass.

You will not get full pay in the month until you check to the line. You will get a blend of training pay and a proration for the month you check to the line. Training pay is crap, even crappier than most other places. (I can't emphasize how expensive Hong Kong is, remember that Hong Kong is the #1 most expensive place to live in the world.) You will get full pay the next month with full pay entitlements. Your bonus will be 1 year after you check to the line +plus 1 month, if you qualify. Your bonus can be reduced for a number of reasons that are not that hard to achieve. If you transition from the A320 to the A330 you will go back to training pay which really sucks because you will still have to pay rent and all your other bills...both CAPT AND FO's. On the face of things, it would appear that you will get a lot of money until you add up all the expenses and then factor in 10-15% fudge factor for what will really happen. This is why Cathay has always given other pays for education, housing, a first year loan, etc etc ( no I don't work for Cathay). But at HKA, you will get none of these things and you will wonder why and if they care. Ahhh No, they don't. I am just saying they don't.

You will generally be on your own here when it comes to getting thru training and getting setup in Hong Kong with very little financial help or even shepherding to get settled into HK. Especially when you consider that in Hong Kong, to lease a place you need 3 months rent; 2 mo. for the deposit and 1mo. for the move in month +plus 25%-50% agent fee…. Yeah fun stuff. I almost forgot that to setup most utilities you need deposits as well and a lot of things have to be paid upfront. The process can be months if you are not type rated and obviously less for rated pilots. But the license conversion is what takes time to complete mostly when you fail and have to do retakes, which happens. So, you should plan on coming out of pocket to get and keep this job. HKA is a miserably cheap company and pinches pennies at every corner. Remember you should be happy to have the job and pay for a few things is their motto. What you should do is look at how much more money & contracts Hainan offers in mainland China and what HKA offers you.

There are some really fantastic knowledgeable over worked instructors here and most of the pilot group is very nice and pleasant to fly with. However, we have a few instructors that are regularly complained about because they are just d*&ks and a*&&es. They are this way because of who they are and their egos are equally annoying. What’s worst is that they are not effective instructors. Many came into these positions by luck and who they knew and timing. More importantly, they are not very humble here. I have seen CAPTs come in former TRE, Chief Pilots etc and basically be disrespected; it is the craziest thing. The bad instructors just don't believe anyone can know more than they do hence they make sure you know it. Not everyone is meant to be an instructor, you can be the most experienced pilot in the world and a horrible instructor. But you are never able to weed these guys out of most places, they are like a cancer with no treatment available. These guys have massive egos and they are fond of themselves and their hand in inventing aviation. Hence, they deserve to be instructors and make life miserable for all. One of the insidious things is that you can hardly challenge or correct anything with these types of instructors. I am not speaking in terms of you being rude and arrogant towards them. But they are always right and you are always wrong no matter how many years more you have been flying beyond them and you're own knowledge. It's disrespectful and ridiculous. The best thing you can hope for is that you have proactive management which help get these guys out of there; but after 20 years, this sort of thing is a rarity.


One thing you have to get use to here is that no one volunteers’ information to you, you have to ask for it and you have to know what to ask for; which takes sometime in HKA to know really what questions that need to be asked. This can be immensely frustrating to deal with. You can be call into the office for one thing and end up running back home for 5 other things that they could have told you needed. Oh! Why didn’t you say that on the phone….silence. The other frustrating things at HKA is that they play musical chairs all the time. You never know from month to month who the hell does what in the office. People change jobs like underwear. When you arrive into the spaces, be prepared for what I call the cold stares or just utter avoidance. In my mind, it's almost as if the office staff have a air of superiority to the pilot group. The result is a feeling of weird discomfort anytime you go into the offices. Remember also that generally most people are not going to go out of their way to help you. I thought it was me and then amongst my friends and others that I have flown with. They have made the same observations and more.

Anyway, one important thing to count on here is that whatever you are endeavoring to do. Whatever you’re calculating in terms of it's difficulty, multiple it by 2 or 3 times. It will always be 2-3 times harder and/or longer than you estimated for very, very, simple things. Also, when you join, keep everything. Every uniform item, note cards, for when you leave HKA....they charge you for everything that they give you in the beginning no matter how long you have been there. It's part of your checkout process. Oh! and make sure if you leave remember that you have to pay your taxes before getting your last check. This is what has forces guys to leave on the 29th of the month. You are paid on the 28th of each month . Why? because they always wants to be able to take pay away from you during the month, so they pay you at the end so if you are a good little boy or girl. Yes, bonding is illegal in Hong Kong. So, if you leave unexpectedly, make sure you don't plan on using them as a reference for you next job. Gotcha!

One more thing, copy all your training records, everything!!! and get your logbook signed as well. Why? because you need these things to apply for other jobs generally, line checks or sim checks etc



Why I Came?

First, before Joining HKA years ago, I was probably in the same desperate situation as you, if you are reading this post. I would read many posts and invariably someone would chime in that you should go to the interview and just get your own sense of things, which makes sense. Well from experience, that's like going on a first date, everyone’s one on their best behavior. Most of the time you get to talk only to company men and women who simply tow the company line.

I did basically break even when I left HKA. However, it did leave a bitter taste. The company truly has potential, but it squanders that potential by constantly shooting itself in the foot.

So, back to what I said before, years ago, I didn’t know what to make of most of these posts that were not very positive about this company or even flying in China. Now years later, I am here to say, a great deal of it is was spot on and still remains so. While, I have seen improvements in certain places, it’s far from where it should be in my mind and many who operate in this region of the world. Besides that, much of what I say here is endemic in many companies to a lessor extent in some areas or more in other areas. There are very few companies that exist today where employees or in this case pilots are happy with what’s going on; mostly because they know pilots need the jobs and love flying the shiny jets at any personal costs. Listen, I will just say that it's difficult to get the full sense of things before flying here, but once you have for a bit you will quickly understand.

For HKA, I would say what many have said in so many posts. If you need a job, don't not apply because of what I say here. Ultimately you have to feed yourself and/or your family, and sometimes you just have to grind it out at some ****ty or worst places and move on to better places. Where is that place these days? Really, I have no idea. For me, it’s just about making a few bucks for the next few years in China and getting out to lick my wounds and rebuild my soul if it’s not too late.:yuk: HKA could be in the better place category, but it’s just not in the DNA of the company and management's desire to micromanage and control every aspect of employee life; and, essentially I think the place stifles all real enjoyment out of working for the company and flying airplanes like most places. They’re almost like a Middle East Airline in that everyone is basically a slave. I think one of the worst aspects is how the company treats almost everyone like children in need of explanation about everything. But scarier is how vengeful and vindictive the company can be. Remember this is a Chinese company operating in Hong Kong, keep this in mind.


OTHER COMPANY INFO

When I started to work overseas, I tried really hard to dig up as much information about various airlines. From what I gathered about when researching certain airlines particularly ones in Asia, the reviews were mostly negative or mostly positive. So, if everyone keeps saying the same thing about a place. It’s generally true in the big picture maybe the details are not as accurate sometimes. At least, this proved to be my experience with HKA after ignoring many posts and media articles about the company. To be fair, HKA use to be far worse a place to work. So, things have improved marginally and how some people stuck it out so long here is quite amazing considering how things use to be. But my experience is that the company wants to grow desperately because it is the desire of the parent company Hainan Group which has strategic interest in Hong Kong. So, the company is willing to make very limited concessions and changes to try to improve conditions without giving away too much; it tends to be a slight of hand trick with HKA, smoke and mirrors. I found that they usual gave with one hand and took twice with the other.

Proof of this is the commuting options that they purport to have in place. In which, a very very limited number of pilots actually “enjoy” and the rest of the pilot group that are interested in these options are on a waiting list.

The current commuting is a joke! It is broken down into A, B, and C options. Option A is 8 days off minimum (see the Organization section on STBY days). Option A is the Std. rostering with 28 days of annual leave. Option B was 2x 4 day blocks (with a pay reduction) 2 days of annual leave used for the 8 days per month. Option C is a 10 day block 2 days of annual days used in the block of 10 days and a pay reduction! again. You don’t get to choose the days off on option B or C. For option A you have 6 days you can request off at specific times of the month, but it's just a request and you will not get 6 days in a row for sure; maybe 4 tops ! and the 2 somewhere else in the month.


VACATION

HKA has a 5 tier rotating bid system for vacation that start in 2012 I think. You would think that it would be easy to look up which group you are in but I challenge you to find this info just by logging into employee website without asking someone. Anyway, you bid when your group comes up and it's generally for 7 day blocks. Can you move these days? yes, if you follow the rules and then follow up on your schedule. I tended to ignore this and just take ADHOC days which are only given if they can be accommodated on your schedule and the company doesn't need people to fly. Can leave be cancelled? yes, for training generally, CCQs, and at the discretion of the company.

CONTRACT

Everything in the contract is written in the company's favor. Period! Will, I get a copy of the company contract before hand. NO! like a lot of places in Asia. Is it fair, no but that's how things run here.


HEALTH CARE

Don't get sick and no one in family should get sick. Read healthcare carefully, it’s not good.

RETIREMENT SCHEME

The provisional scheme mandated in Hong Kong requires the company to contribute a certain amount to your retirement. You can only get this money when you leave Hong Kong permanently or retire. Hong Kong and most places of Asia are paperwork intensive places. You will have to fire off in general a crap load of paperwork to access benefits or other services. Additionally, you will have to travel to some remote offices in some part of the island you had no idea existed to find certain things.:ugh:
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ORGANIZATION

HKA is run very much by HR principally, by a Chinese Board of Directors, and VPs vice say Hong Kong Chinese. For them days off are a privilege and not a right, they believe that you should be happier to be at work than to have days off. Consequently, much of the staff is worked to death and certainly the pilots are generally regarded and treated as entitled over privileged office staff. Meaning, they see the job of piloting as having the equivalent foot print and pattern as say the average office staff. This in turn frames their belief that pilot should then only have the same time off as the average office staff. As of this month from my friends that are there, they were supposed to almost do away with STBY days, however the practice continues relentlessly despite the company having to pay now a few hundred HKD per day. Don’t get too excited it doesn't work out to be that much when you consider that $800 HKD is about $100 USD. But I know the pilot group at least hoped that this would keep them from standing these onerous STBY days (see my next post on 31st March 2017 on Option Days).

What’s a STBY day? I have literally when I was there routinely had 9-12 STBY days. STBY days are given every month. The company requires you to STBY 8 hours at various time slots to hang on to your phone and uniform to be called. Yes! You are paid for the call out, but again it’s not that much. Consequently, you can have days of 6 days of STBY, which I have had. The only way around this is to trade out thru the CAPT or FO informal trading done currently on Whatapp which I am sure management will find a way to quash at some point and depending on how your line is constructed, it may not be possible to trade certain trips. Recently, I know that crew scheduling have been giving the group a lot of push back and refusing or making up reason why they can’t make the trade. Again, this is not an officially sanctioned thing by the company. As far as the company is concerned, you get what you get and that’s it.

Generally, yes, you will have 8 days off. Your pay is based on flying at least 50 hours in order to get full pay entitlements. So, how does this work? Well, recently with the pilot shortage of CAPTs. Some CAPTS have been flying extra ordinary times 75-95 hours a month. The pay check is good. My buddy on the A330 raked in $21000 last month JAN 2017;that’s actually pretty good compared to the previous months. Normally, the company tries to keep everyone at the same number of flight hours. It hasn’t worked out that way in recent months for some CAPTs and FO's, but that is what they try to do.

Why you ask? Well, the company believes that no one pilot should have more than the other, not even if they just want to fly more. You will find that the company has wide latitude in changing your schedule and extending your duty with little rights for you to stop it except to call sick or calling fatigue. Both of which will likely be challenged by scheduling by them calling the GMF or some other big wig who will call your cell phone and treat you like the little child that they think that you are. It’s generally a one-way thing with respect at HKA, because in the end, remember that you are just a slave. Believe me, I can give you stories, but I will try to contain this to a few pages.

But I will just say that I know of one CAPT who was flying into HK after 3 legs that day on the A320 and he was called by scheduling once he landed. If I remember the story correctly (yes I know him personally), he was very close to duty limit with the extra sectors or he had some other duty limit. So, he asked could they maybe find someone else on another flight and that he had flown all day etc etc He said, he would have taken it, but he was having one of those days. Not one of those days that he needed to call in sick for or something else, but he was trying to negotiate a different outcome. I can vouch that this person is no slouch, so I am pretty sure he would have taken it on any other day. However, crew schedule asked him if he was refusing the assignment. He said no, he was not, only that he was asking if there was any other solution that could be worked out. To make it short, he ended up getting a call from the current GMF who was then the Fleet Manager (a real tool bag with a crazy Napoleonic complex because he’s short and has no friends and personal life….you know the story!) . Well the conversation was one sided with him doing his normal bullying and abusive tactic because he knows that no one is likely to kick him in the shorts on the way to his car. But do your research and if you need a job I wouldn’t steer you clear of HKA. But in this region and like many places, there are very few places that are really excellent or just good places to work for….it’s just the truth. Certainly, if you are from the West, most of these places will frustrate you over a few years if not less.

Why will it frustrate you? Well, I would recommend googling “Flying in China.” It's a good 400 page break down of flying in China and pretty damn accurate. It’s just important to keep in mind that if you are from countries that have strong labor laws and workers rights that are enforced. When you come to Asia where the concepts of work rights are in their infancy in some places and very slowly evolving and where it’s the cultural norm to get along and shut up; then this isn’t likely to work for you in the long run. Yes. I work for a Chinese company now and even I know there is a shelf life in the long run. Well, my motivation right now is just to make enough money to head back to Europe and buy a place in the Alps and work for a cheap airline…kidding! But I certainly don’t intend on being in this region forever and you only really come here for the money. In the China, the money is pretty good, but it comes at a cost.

SICK CALLS

The other way is to call in sick which seems to happen a lot. There just isn’t any flexibility and this creates pressure on your life as a pilot. But they hate sick calls which is why they require you to get up on the day you are sick and run to a clinic somewhere to get a sick note so you can present it to the company like a 2-year-old. HKA considers everyday a work day and will penalize you financially for each day without a note followed by a discipline board and letter in your file which will affect your annual bonus. Too many sick calls or letters for whatever and maybe no bonus….I know these guys probably deserve it, if that's your first thought then HKA is the place for you and maybe a positon on the staff.

MANAGEMENT

Managers wear different hats, a manager can be a LTC, SIM Instructor, TRI/TRE and Flight OPS. Sometimes this creates a conflict of interest in that if you piss off one of these guys, well they sit on most of the boards, have access to your files, and can generally make your life hell if they want. At this moment, they are now authorized to create TRE with HKCAD approval. Well, I am sure these managers will be first in line and who can blame them. You never know when you have to leave a place so you pad your bank account and keep the resume updated; and believe me this what’s done to a large extent.

Management staff are relatively young, they hold key staff positions with no critical airline experience from any part of the industry; some who are seemly faking their way through the jobs. HKA is divided into a number of different departments: Flight Ops, Ground & Maintenance, Training, Administration, and HR. These are the main departments. Seemly, no department really communicates with the other and the heads of these departments are more than a bit egotistical and complete micromanagers with a few Napoleons heading one or two of these department. The lack of organization has each department fighting each other over who knows more or who is right, which creates a company with a spinning bearing pointer. The most powerful of these departments is HR; it doesn’t help that the head of HR is in a relationship with other key staff members. HR dictates what all departments do and how the company operates. I exaggerate a bit, but not really, they rule the roost. In most Major Airlines, everyone falls in line with flight operations because that is the business, flying airplanes.

But the key to understanding HKA lies in understanding Chinese Culture. This part may take more explanation than you have time to read; but again, google “flying in china.” But a quick down and dirty is that most workers’ rights are virtually nonexistent. Employees exist to serve the greater glory of the company. It’s all for the group not the individual and each individual serves the great purpose of the company. Additionally, workers aren’t use to having or demanding rights or having labor laws. What exist in Hong Kong is simply a function of colonial leftover by the British. So, don’t plan to come to HKA and say form a union because you will certainly have an uphill battle. While, Cathay has at the moment a somewhat effective Union. The journey to this point was long and arduous to say the least. Most people are just happy to have jobs and a pay check. Life for some, because Hong Kong is so expensive, revolves around simply trying to support parents, get married so you can have kids, and go to work to serve the corporate masters. Hong Kong’ers and Chinese in general work very hard with exceedingly long hours. It’s a bit depressing to see how life works sometimes for some people because it is a soul sucking existence which leaves nothing but the shell of a human being after a few short years. But in truth, most of our corporate masters in the west have turn work environments into systems that are getting closer to this type of work life.

HKA ENVIRONMENT

Punitive, secretive, and vindictive. Everything is recorded about you, so plan on having a secret file even they say one doesn’t exist. Everyone is expected to spy on each other here and they do. As is said of most airlines in the region, show up to work keep your head down until you can leave for something better or if you like the region and don’t want to move to yet another airline then you keep your head down and play the game. We all know how this is done and if you don’t lose your soul in the end or slit your wrist then it’s a great place to stay. But truthful, many of the regions airlines are like this Korean, EVA, Asiana, etc

Pilots here and FAs complain about the same 15 or 16 things all the time. So, plan on joining the water cooler talk about these things.

UPGRADES:

This has been getting better. However, the failure rate is quite high around 50%-60%. Why? Well, first this is not really a place you want to come and be an FO especially if you are from a Western/European country. For those who have work as FO’s in this region, then it's not big deal for you. So, you have gotten used to being treated like a pee on and know nothing different. Yes, if you know everything in the FOMs, have the flight hours, survive the HR interview, survive the panel interview, never called in sick, and no issues in your training file. Yes, you will upgrade at some point. However, remember you have to upgrade the A320 if you are on the A330.

Yes, Captains here are treat much better; but much of the Captain’s authority, as in many places in the Middle East, USA, & Europe, has been gutted for the most part. Captain’s do whatever is in the company manual and that’s it. If you don’t you better have a dam good reason because you will be fired without hesitation. Most Captains that are hired don’t have to go thru the same gauntlet of deadly trials to upgrade. But this sort of battery or challenge course exist in many other places as well not just HKA (see my post on 26 Feb 2017).

HKA PATTERNS

A320: Expensive with loads of delays on the A320 fleet that will frustrate you to no end. Life is better on the A330 and soon A350. Patterns tend to be day or night turns into China; others are 1-1, 1-0-1; 3-0-3;3-0-1;1-0-3. A 1-0-1 is one sector out, stay 24 hours, then fly back on day 3. This can be frustrating because you will likely only net 4 hours in 3 days. Van times to the hotel can be 30min-1 hour. Arrival and times are all over the place. Recently, HKA built a new crew room. Well, I found it a pain in the ass. If you are on the A330 you would think that you might show up at the airport maybe 3-4 times a month. Not at HKA, you have TPE turns, PVG turns, etc very very short turns. Remember also that when the A350 arrives, I think it's like 3 aircraft initially. It won't immediately do long haul flights. It will do short sectors for a least 6 months first as a part of the HCAD requirements. So, right now, on say the A330, you can have line with no Australia, New Zealand, etc still a crap load of short sectors. This requires you to go to the airport numerous times during the month. Right now, that means, a process that requires 30 minutes at least from the entry of the airport to the new crew room. You are required to be there 1.5 hours prior to take off. This means you need to get to the airport 2 hours before, at least. Oh! I am delayed 7 hours going to PVG. Yes! nothing is canceled ever...it takes miracles. So, you live in the mid-levels on HK Island. It will take you a minimum of 45 minutes to get to the airport if you are lucky plus 2 hours plus 7 hours delays plus 2-2.5 hours for the sector plus 1 hour to the hotel and the time it took to get ready to fly this 1:0:1 trip. After all this, you will get 4 hours of pay. Welcome to HKA! and yes, lots of delays in China due to limited routes, wx, airspace issues, ATC, military training in the middle of the airspace etc etc

TRAVEL

It’s laughable. If you want to travel on STBY or any of the other passes theyt are limited here at HKA. HKA only has a few airlines that you can purchase ID/ZED passes on. Even so, if I want to purchase a pass. You have to email a form to the company travel. Then await a response. Then, you need to send a receipt for funds transmitted to the company and then await a response with the ticketed STBY passes. Maybe 4-6 four days minimum, if you are stuck on the day of travel and need to change a pass; hmmm forget it!! You have to go back thru the process. The good news is that they tend to be valid for a few months. Remember that you have to opt_in by emailing the company in after 6 months after your line check to get travel pass privileges with the company or ID with other airlines which is a very limited list that it’s pretty much useless. NOTHING here is automatic! (see my post on 26 Feb 26 updated) :ugh:

JUMPSEATING

Fill out a jump seat form and take to the GMF or the secretary for signature. Then send an email to the CAPTAIN of the flight for notification and then get a signature on the day of your jump seat flight. I never use it because it was ridiculous. :ugh:

[flyer25]

Every month, there is a pilot/management meeting to make suggestions and air grievances. Don't get too exited it's really a dog and pony show, but most of your suggestions will be balled up and filed appropriately under we don't give a sh#$ category:= Like many places, it's all for show and the only guys that go there including one of my friends live in a world of their own delusion that company really is listening. Well, HKA like many places, only listen what they want to hear and what works for them.

Recently one those meetings occurred and here are the highlights:


CAPTAIN UPGRADES

Apparently I was way wrong about the upgrades pass rate at HKA, I had heard it was 50-60% or so. In the meeting, 23rd FEB 17, it's apparently 38% pass the gauntlet . Let me say that again, 38%.

Well, I new the upgrade process was rough but that's pretty rough. Keep in mind these are guys that have been at the company a number of years and previously at other airlines not cadet programs. So, it's rough.

Here's my take on things: If you are a DEC you will have a much easier time with the interview process and a lot more latitude to join HKA. However, once you're in. By about your 1st PC, you can expect that you performance needs to be sharper than your interview and in line with the company standards.

However, for the FO that wants to upgrade, it's a merciless gauntlet complete with dragons to take you out. It really is a crazy process. The minimums are what they are and I have seen that they do take guys who don't necessarily meet all the minimums but have been there a number of years and at least have 2000hrs on company jets plus other hours and factors of course. But it normally involves if I remember correctly 2 panel interviews then you wait for awhile to get the results; then 2 PC checks; company exams on OM-A company policy SOPs aircraft systems etc then a board is confined to evaluate all the candidates etc and they decide who will start upgrade training. Oh don't forget to factor in the secret file which will include sick calls and any nasty notes.

This process can be lengthy and if you fail 2x, you are FO for life. Keep in mind this process use to be harder than this, early part of 2016 to mid last year was when things changed as they needed to make upgrades happen. But in this process unfortunately, they made perfection the enemy of good enough but i guess that has always been the case. You are hardly ever going to have a perfect upgrade candidate, there is a maturation and period of time needed to develop into a real CAPT once you get your 4 bars. So, I think they focus too much on trying to get guys to show up perfect and it creates an intense amount of pressure. Plus the process isn't comfortable at all, I am not saying you have to cuddle with the guys and gals. But they seem to make it into a KGB integration and a few of the instructors who have the final say are complete you know what. so, good luck!

Apparently the 40 T requirement will not go away anytime soon.....this is based on the long standing belief in the industry that if you have 10000 RJ hours then flying a 737 is a bridge too far. It's just the system, I don't write the rules.


Oh! keep in mind that seniority really is irrelevant here like most other places in the world. It only matters who fly's first on long haul flights or who gets to sleep first that about it. Beyond that it doesn't really matter one bit. Having said that, this means you can be upgraded out of order in terms of the seniority list. It's not the most transparent system in the world like a lot of places.:ugh:

TRAVEL

They are trying to implement a new travel program which will allow you to use more ZEDs with other company's. But I heard that for a long time and it still didn't come to true when I was there.

Update: April 2017, HKA will announce MyIDtravel. This program is run by Lufthansa. But it's not clear how many companies HKA will have access to since I believe you have to have a reciprocal agreements or belong to an alliance.

Update: 28 May 2017, No My ID travel at HKA. I am not so optimistic about this since the companies loves control over your freedom. If they join this program, the data about peoples travel doesn't come to the company and they really want this information; just in case they need to fire you for something.

ROSTER

Stand by days are not going away either. You still can have 6 days in a row of stby's and 9-11 days of it in a month.


note: Be careful too when you arrive at HKA, they like to use what I call amorphous type words in the contracts or proposed changes or guidelines. Words like," Pilots who are eligible for a 3% pay increase." Here, eligible is the amorphous word, it's not concrete, but it should imply to you loop hole or several in the companies favor. They sometimes never define what it is deliberately so that if you have an issue they can at the last minute decide what eligible means. This is the HKA way! Good Luck!

[flyer25]

ROSTER

This is something that I forgot mention from the pilot meeting highlights. Apparently, you are no longer able to trade a trip with another person who has greater than 50 hours while you have less than 50 hours. This change was done I almost guarantee you by the GMF....I will reserve my choice words. Remember the company wants you to have more than 50 hours for the distribution to equal with everyone, ideally. Why? I have never ran the numbers but besides wanting everyone to have the same hours. The company believes that if some pilot are paid more based on the increasing overtime pay after 50 hours then the company has more cost. Like I said, I have never run the numbers to see if an even distribution with everyone around 55 hours cost less overall than a distribution where some guys have high hours and others lower than 50 hours. IDK.

HKA has a very crude trading system. You log into the company system and then you can pull up your schedule and look up other people schedule. However, to do this you have to have a printed list of everyones company number and/or name. The system allows you to look up one crew member at a time and look at their schedule. You can do a wide field search base on the days and trip and pull up everyone who would be flying on those days. Then you can click on each persons name one at a time and see their schedule.

It is very very tedious process. You will have to take copious notes and go thru schedules generally to examine exactly if you can legal make the trade. Then you send a request to the other party to see they are interested in the trade and if they are, then you can submit the trade online to scheduling. Depending on the time of day etc this trade could happen quickly or take hours. So, you keep checking to see if it is approved. If it takes too long you can call in and they can take a look at things if they feel in the mood to do so. Trading is just something that they are not enthusiastic about because the scheduling system is so crude that they see it as a pain for them.

This process has been usurped by a whatsapp trading forum where you can post trades and save a bit of time from having to go thru everyone's schedule one by one. So, on the forum you can specify or screen shot your schedule and assuming that most people check you maybe be able to advertise a trade. Not everyone is on the forum, but it's a large enough pool that you will likely get a bite. Once someone agrees you will need to log into the company website and post the trades formally to scheduling. You call only to push the trade or try to confirm things.

[King Air]

Usd $21000 for Capt?

[flyer25]

$21,000? I actually re-read my whatsapp message with my bud. He actually quoted an amount slightly higher than 21k which starts to be in the range of what management pilots make per month. This higher value seems a bit much, but 21k does appear reasonable if you are north of 90 block hours which he states that he was. You have to remember that you will make for every 10 block hours above 50 hours a different and higher pay rate at HKA; then add a few red eye payes and maybe a few callouts for standby days etc etc But I am not sure how important that fact is. He has kids and a wife in Hong Kong; and I can tell you that money was already spent before it hit his account. Yes, you can take deductions for depends in HK, however, I know a guy that pays 40k HKD for his place in Discovery Bay. $21k is about 163500 HKD. So, let's take at least 15% for HK taxes if you are smart and this accounts for the additionally taxes that you are asked to pay in advance for the next tax year. This leaves you with 139000 HKD now minus 40000 HKD for his place in DB. Now, you at 99000 HKD ($12750 USD approx.). If you have 3 kids in school, just minus $4000 USD minimum. Now you have about $ 8750 USD optomistcally to pay bills, food, utilities, travel, commute, entertainment, etc etc You can find a place cheaper in Tung Chung for much less and rent even in DB. But this is just a scenario for my buddy who pays 40K HKD for rent. :ok:

[flyer25]

Yes, like many companies in the Middle East, China, etc etc The FOQA program in the US and other programs in Europe are more fair to the pilot crew. However, HKA like a number of places has an entire department of people who's job is to find issues with how you operate the aircraft. But the fact finding is not designed necessarily to improve your performance and help you become a better pilot as much as it is to assign blame and put you out of work. I have rarely heard stories of positive interactions with the safety department and certainly at HKA everything is thrown into your file and counts against monetary incentives and renewal of your contract.

If you have an entire department being paid, you can bet they will have to find fault with something. You're just not going to have a week that someone is not called for something. Moreover, you have to return most paperwork back to the company as a part of the CAD requirements , for ETOPS flight etc it's practically everything that you briefed and flew with.

You can be called for missing items. But of course, getting called for not signing a logbook or improper entires affects the relationship with the CAD and has ramifications that make things difficult for the company because these things are legal requirements that are audited.

Oh! one thing to keep in mind is that everyone is under the gun and fear losing their jobs in HK. A good job is hard to come by and when you are trapped in HK. Gate Agents, Ramp personal, FAs, will generally try to push the blame for things off on you as the CAPTAIN.

Most if not all responsibility is on your shoulders and the SOPs etc are all written this way so always take note of when you arrive at the aircraft, how much fuel on board, cause of delays, when crew scheduling called, who you called etc use your smart to take pictures and make notes when things are happening out of the ordinary. Hope that answers the question.

[volare_737]

Flyer you seem to have a lot of info. Do you have any on Hong Kong Express ? How do they compare to HKA ?

[Onesixty2four]

Wow. Reading this just makes me feel soooooo happy about my current gig. Pay is good, easy lifestyle, relaxed 10 minute drive to work, tropical living, cheap col, big house paid for by the company, excellent crew, good people to work with, roster up to 6 weeks in advance. I could go on, but I'm on standby so need to head off to the gym (also provided by the company).

[MENELAUS]

0ne sixty FFS don't tell anybody anymore. They'll think we work for a living..

[DUSKY DOG]

:D
Great Insight into the corporate Psyche:
Why so much power given to HR ? If anything they can only hinder the growth and "esprit de corp" of the organisation!!! My only guess its a left over of communistic control.

[MENELAUS]

Yes these communistics cant let go.

[flyer25]

Well, I can't speak with any in-depth knowledge of the HKE's way of life except what I heard from friends while waiting on the bus station in DB or running into guys during pass training. I have more current info on HKA obviously, but both company's are part of the Hainan Group but are treated quite differently if you look at the contracts issue in mainland verses Hong Kong. I do know for sure will have more time off at HKE than HKA which is a result of the sector lengths that they fly on the A320 more than anything else. HKA flies very short sectors sometimes and have a very inefficient patterns on the A320 in comparison to HKE. At HKA you will have 3 day trips on the A320 to say Chengdu which we call a 1:0:1. So it's about 2.5-.7 from HK to Chengdu. But it's a very nice overnight. But a waste of 3 days of your life to get 5 block hours. This is how HKA manages to keep everyone around 50 block hours per month. At HKE, my understanding is that they fly say HK to Seoul overnight and comeback. 5 of those on your schedule and you are already over 50 block hours at HKE. But my understanding is that most people have very high block hours which will pay them well and give them more days of to live a life. But I believe they have some of the same structural issues with the company but I think it's a bit worst maybe at HKA. So, that is the significant difference between HKA and HKE. As well, they don't really upgrade so often, you are likely to stay an FO for a long time if you are not a DEC. But if you have specific questions about HKE, I can ask a few friends that current work there and try to relay it here.

[flyer25]

Ahh Dusky, I think you hit it on the head. But nothing I say here will change it anytime soon so you just have to accept the deal. Things change at a snails place here in Mainland China or Hong Kong. It's about control, it's been that way from the dawn of men and women. We have always had systems of control of the masses thru various methodologies religions, economic, governmental, etc etc People are conditioned here to be lorded over by the government system, employer, etc etc. It's the structure of things for now. But I do see things in certain areas of China changing but very very slowly. Well, let me qualify that, by say that in the major cities life seems to be accelerating out of control in terms of people entering the middle class and looking for the same things that are in western countries. As China, expands and opens it's market even more to fully in brace Capitalism, not that I am a fan of Capitalism, then the people will naturally want to have more control of their private life, work life, and even government rights or concepts that will include many more ideas of rights. This will naturally lead to a struggle with the current system. This struggle exist today, but it is not so easy to speak out still and demand changes as it is in the west. So, people here tend to keep their feelings on matters private, any threat to the system could land you in trouble. Most of the freedoms that you see today that are left in say America or Europe took centuries to materialize and lots of blood shed to forge. Proof of change in China can only be measure by maybe older guys who remember a China 30 years ago that looks nothing as it does today.

But I have gotten way far a field from the question. HR in at least the case of HKA is designed to maintain employer control of employees, the pilots being contractual employees. If you are a good boy or girl at HKA, you can be offered a permanent contract with HKA and this does happen. But you really have to keep your head down and don't rock the boat. Most of the happiest guys at HKA do this or live in the Philippines or Malaysia or somewhere else. They try to build a life away from the company and just stay out of the stream of conflicts and go with the flow. But as you read the contract language, you will immediately realize that all the language favors the company in all aspects the company maintains an iron clad leverage on you. So, read the contract carefully at HKA, there is also a confidentiality clause included in the contract at HKA about releasing the contents or it's language to the public. Again, always trying to maintain the company leverage and also hide things like bonds which are illegal in HK and not enforceable in courts HK. So, why even include this if this is not enforceable? The real reason is I believe hidden mostly in termination language when you leave illegally and maybe it gives the company leverage for recovery in a court if you took them to court they could complicate your case by trying to recoup training cost while stepping aside from the specific language of a bond. I also believe it conditions you psychologically to believe you owe something HKA and plants a seed in your head that you can not leave easily. HKA just recently lost a labor case, brought by a few pilots with regards to the 28 days of annual pay. I asked my bud about it. It will require the company to give 48 days of annual leave or pay 20 days for annual leave to each pilot per year. The company wasn't happy as most companies are never happy to be told to comply and have remained silent while they examine how they can legally get out of it. They did issue an internal email with regards to it but they were short on specifics as they normal do at the company. We will see how things play out. But this is the way here, so either you like it or you move on somewhere else. But things are not so good in many places as I have said, so you are really stuck these days with a lot of these companies and policies that are not so friendly or rather favorable to pilots. The money is attractive and believe me, but the path can be very complicated to make a life in HK or China as many of you have already read in other post. But I always recommend a commuting contract if you can get it.

[jetjockey696]

Wasnt that long ago.. I remember that HKA and HKE pilots and cabin crew had to memorise and recite the company creed.. and fifty lashes for those who didnt.

Pilots in Hong Kong ordered to memorise and recite company creed | TopNews (http://www.topnews.in/pilots-hong-kong-ordered-memorise-and-recite-company-creed-2173481)

[flyer25]

Well these days, you will not be able to interact on any level except them checking on you during the flight. Their state can only be described as whipped puppies. I was never quite sure all that the company minions did to them in their far off training rooms. But they produce highly obedient staff... you say jump and they say how high. On the road you will hardly interact with FAs, this is part of a larger program. But it might be for the best because truthful, most guys will just get themselves into trouble they don't need and most of you that have been around know exactly what I mean. But they do live in a not so happy world.

[DUSKY DOG]

Thank you Flyer 25
If only Karl Marx and Freidrich Engels could digest the above.........

[guishe45]

Hi everyone, I have read all posts . I have almost 4000 hours of flying experience in corporate airplanes here in south america, but It has been harder to pay the bills and I fly no more than 20 hours per month.

I know before applying in ASIA that Hong Kong is a very expensive place, but I received an invitation for the next pilot Roadshow in Lima,Peru; I will be attending and I would like to know if someone could give me any information about the roadshow. I will have:
0930-1200L
Welcome briefing
Stage1: Technical Knowledge Test

1300-1830L
Stage 2: English Pre Screening Test (approximately 30 minutes per candidate)
Stage 3: Management Interview (approximately 40 minutes per candidate)
Stage 4: Forms and licensing documents collection

2300L
Stage 5: Simulator Assessment - CAE Lima Training Center

What has happened that they are recruiting many pilots? Just for the new A350´s?

As I said I read the posts and I do respect all your comments but I think will be flying more in HKA, a nice Airplane and I will be able to pay the bills here( I´m engaged but I would be leaving alone in HK at the beginning).

Thank you in advance and happy landings.

[HH Chan]

HongKong is very very expensive for families

[4M Pilot]

Amazing description of HKA !
Thanks

[flyer25]

In a previous post, I spoke about the dreaded STBY days at HKA that require you to be tethered to your phone & your living room for 8 hours without pay. Then the company announced it would pay peanuts for those 8 hours amounting to about $10-20$ USD per hour. Well, HKA being HKA a creative airline that likes to give with one hand and take 2 things from you with the other. As HKA decided to pay for STBY days they realised that if you had 11-12 days of STBYs on a pilot's schedule they would boost everyones income each month by potentially $1000 USD to $2000 depending on the seat you occupied. So, the genius's instituted what are called "O" days. Optional off days, so essentially you can be given 12 days of STBYs which at the companies discretion can be converted to "O" days. This prevents them from having to pay you the pilot for the STBY days. However, the problem with this is that they can convert your "O" day into "STBY" days the evening before.

Gents and ladies, you just can't make this stuff up. Again, keep in mind that HKA belongs to the Hainan Group one of the wealthiest companies in China.

But as I have said before, if you need a job, I would certainly not be the one to tell you not to take it on the chin for a while with HKA to get a few type ratings potentially and flight time while you figure a few things out other career options. They are really ramping up the the A350 pipeline so it's another type rating you can have at HKA. However, internally, they have created requirements for you to be accepted to CCQ[Correction this will be a transition/difference course of about 2-3 weeks the last I heard] to the A350. Unless you are a DEC or DEFO on the A350 [Correction there are currently no DECs or DEFO to the A350 as the aircraft is not on property. However, the company does have DEC and DEFO to the A320/330], you will need a few years at the company to move up to the A350. But the A350 will not initially go straight to long haul flying since it has a break in period before be able to get approval from the HKCAD to fly long haul with the company. [I am almost sure the company will accept DECs and DEFOs when the A350 is on property. I will keep you posted]

[swh]

You are correct, they cannot make the stuff up, they just copy someone else.

[Below the glide]

I think you're in a dilemma mate, obviously, you do not know the actual running's of HKA, you pick up a few bits and pieces here and there and misconstrued the entire issue.

Question:
1. Would you rather be paid for a standby or not? That's an easy one
2. If you are desperate for days OFF or have more free time, would you prefer an additional day or not?

Hence, the ''O'' day. Other Airlines a far more cunning, as they don't pay for available days or O days, they'll just convert it to a SBY for Free to the company.

As for your assumed CCQ - Firstly, there's no CCQ for the A350, its only available at the moment for Current A330 Type Rated guys, they attend a CTR to qualify for A330/A350 licence endorsement as a Common Type.

So, no DEC's! or FO's.

therefore, do us a favor, I think HKA doing a good job indeed, no one is perfect anywhere.

So, if you want to know eactly whats happening, PM and i'll most certainly let you know before you blast the world with nonsense.

Thanks and have a lovely April Fools :ok:

[flyer25]

Ahhh Below the Glide

Misconstrued or bits. I worked for HKA and still have many friends there so I have no need to PM you;maybe you should PM me if you need a few things answered.

Yes, you are right the A350 is a common type to the A330 and you do not have to CCQ. You are exactly right and I misspoke in that regard. But much of HKA's A350 program was copied from Cathay as they were the first to get the aircraft in Hong Kong. But you will have to take transition/diff course to get to A350 at HKA.

Yes, as far as I am aware, they don't currently have DEC or DEFO to the A350 as the aircraft isn't even on property yet.

And indeed, I have never made an assertion that any job is perfect. However, I have pretty good info having worked there and can certainly correct any information I put out. I would read some of previous post regarding HKA before throwing your 2 cents. But I imagine you are probably management or just one of those guys who never reads the previous posts before commenting and making assumptions.

[flyer25]

A previous post wanted an example of the A330 schedule during a month. This is an example, I have crop to protect the innocent. The O days again are a new scheme by the company to get around paying for STBY days. These days were likely STBY days originally and then covered to O days which can be converted back at the companies discretion. STBY days are now being paid by the company in previous years they were not, but you can read my previous post regarding this issue. The major issue being that these STBY days were previous used simply to not give pilots days off. Often you would 10 to 20 people on STBY for the same day which was ridiculous when I worked for HKA. This is actually a pretty good schedule at HKA, I was a bit surprised but everyone can have very different monthly schedules. But again, read my previous post.:ok:

[flyer25]

This is addendum to my previous post regarding the current internal requirements for the A350 when it's on property at HKA. You can see that at the moment, it's likely that you will not be able to immediately join and go right to the A350. However, in the future once they have a few A350s on property they will likely take DECs and DEFOs.:ok:

[ROW_BOT]

Flyer, you're missing the real scandal here.
HKA is demanding a 2 Year Bond of 25K USD for that non-existent CCQ course!
For what? A differences course?

And that's USD by the way - not HKD.
Why price it in USD I wonder? Is it because it sounds like a shed load more when you write 200,000HKD? Maybe they don't trust the HKD/USD peg?

This Bond (if even legal in HKG) applies equally to a guy who just strolled in the door and goes straight on the (new) rating as it does to a long serving pilot.
That's how much they value loyalty. Zilch.

No loyalty among thieving pilots I hear you say 'Below the Glide'? But HKA is GREAT isn't it? Who would want to leave?

I think a lot of HKA guys will take a long hard look at this deal. They'll already be feeling irked because the cost of a (actual) CCQ course was previously contracted at 15K USD, until just last week, when they upped it to 25K at the stroke of a pen!

Many will also be thinking that this is no great deal when they know they will operate mixed fleet flying with the 330. If it was a standalone 350 fleet you might be looking at increased time off as a result of the longhaul sectors. But no - you will be doing the same old local flights too, and knowing how the rosters are operated in HKA you could well find yourself getting no 350 trips for a while if you've been a bit 'naughty' and upset the wrong office clerk.

Never mind. If you don't want it the next guy will grab it. No Seniority in HKA remember.

But imagine if nobody volunteered? Now that would be funny.
Another shot in the foot by HKA HR.

[flyer25]

No doubt the bonding is a bit ridiculous, but it's not legally enforceable in HK court. But if you want to use the company as a reference, they can also claim that you skipped out on the bond with the new company or if you want to work for a Hainan company in the mainland then this would prohibit that for sure. When I left, I know that you can ask for a waiver for the remaining bonding if you have some amount left otherwise, its deducted from your final pay check. But your last pay is also held until you pay the taxes as calculated by the company. When I was there to CCQ to the A330 was 1 year 15k USD bond. This is why some guys, if they are not coming back to Hk leave on the 29th since you are paid on the 28th. But make sure transfer the money from ur account:O Like I said in previous post, there are people who have accepted things by laying low. But most plan to leave. I know two guys this week who asked me to refer any opportunities that I may know or come across to them so they can leave HKA. In the last 2 years I was there, a lot of new joiners i.e. Captains just wanted the A330 type and PIC time so they can go to other opportunities. HKA is just a place you go if you need a gig to find a better gig if those still exist anymore in the pilot world; few an far between sometimes.

[FlyingSpanner]

Thought the 350 WAS to be operated as a separate fleet - at least initially?

[BlunderBus]

Theyre just leaving the door open for the flood of cx 350 guys to skip across;)

[ROW_BOT]

Don't forget also that these A350's are brand new aircraft direct from Airbus. That means each one of them will include Pilot Training subsidies/courses from Airbus. So in fact there's no need to charge pilots a cent for the first batch of conversions.
The sole reason for these bonds is to force pilots to remain at HKA in spite of whatever dirty moves they pull next on you. If hka was a genuine career employer they wouldn't need to resort to such trickery.

[F2L]

Hello, I went to road show in Lima and still waiting for the final result, I heard that people receive feedback in few days, but the assessment was few weeks ago and no feedback yet, anyone here in the same situation???

[BillyJac]

Hello Guys,

I would like to know about the medical exam in Hong Kong. Do you know if they accept color blind pilots ?

[OSCAR YANKEE]

Pretty sure no CAA in the world would accept colour blindness for a Class One medical. (Prob. not any for that matter.)

Sorry.

[BusyB]

Depends if its classed as "Colour defective safe" which is acceptable with CAA and HKCAD. Don't know about any others.

[swh]

Flyer, you're missing the real scandal here.
HKA is demanding a 2 Year Bond of 25K USD for that non-existent CCQ course!
For what? A differences course?

The A330/A350 differences course takes about a month at CX, I assume HKA will use a similar training footprint. A week in the classroom, CAD exam, two IPT sessions, five FFS sessions, and then line flying sectors.

No doubt the bonding is a bit ridiculous, but it's not legally enforceable in HK court.

I would caution anyone taking legal advice from an anonymous forum, get professional advice for your situation. Employment contracts are legally enforceable in HKG courts, even if an employee absconded. Orders made in HKG courts can be recovered in foreign jurisdictions to through international agreements.

One could also face arrest if transiting HKG for non payment of taxes as tax liabilities are due prior to leaving HKG. Then there is the matter of your mandatory provident fund you will not be able to access.

[airdualbleedfault]

Flyer is correct, bonds are not legally enforceable in HK, I have had personal experience with this. Believe me, if they were, CX and KA would be the first to have them

[swh]

Look at section 32 of the employment ordinance under "Deductions from wages", it says "(f) deductions, with the written consent of an employee, for the recovery of any loan made by the employer to the employee"

While the term you thrown around is bond, the document signed will be a loan in Hong Kong. Given you have gone through the soliciting information for the benefits, agreed to the terms, and signed, it forms a contract.

Then have a look at the Foreign Judgments (Reciprocal Enforcement) ordance and you will see that a Hong Kong employer can then come after you in foreign jurisdictions. They will thank you for also picking up the legal fees on top of what you owe.

By all means accept on face value what you read on pprune, it is your money. Why spend it on legal advice when you have been told otherwise by an anonymous pilot.

[flyer25]

Relax, no one on this forum has claimed to be a lawyer or dishing out legal advice. Understanding the web of laws in Hong Kong is a nightmare so consult a lawyer if you like. It's not a bad idea and sound advice. But we are all anonymous pilots relaying what we have heard or experienced or what we have witnessed first hand and/or can attest to it or even provide proof sometimes. Some of it is hearsay or suppositions or assumptions or occasionally, the educated guess or deductive reasoning.

I doubt anyone should walk away from anything on the internet whether it's on the this site or somewhere else without doing a bit of research or follow up. If not, like anything in life, you might get crappy information. But I think often, the utility of these sites is to spark conversation that may lead to people, in this case pilots, to go out and do a bit of research on the topic or subject. Again, with all things in life, sometimes everything is not a 100% accurate. But maybe we can all agree that where there is smoke, sometimes there is a fire and it's up to the individual whether to take the smoke as verification;or maybe to inspect the scene more closely to get secondary evidence. As is the case with this forum, I hardly doubt that when you see dozens of post from people that say the same things, that they are all just crazy, in some way they are all testifying to the same thing.

It's funny to me years later having been advised or read things on forums. Finding it completely accurate or very close to accurate when I finally witness it myself. Things I heard about Cathay, a good portion of it was pretty spot on or KA or HKA or HKE or China. I will soon put out my version of my take on life in flying for a Chinese Company. I think at least it will give a perspective of things that might help guys and gals prepare for the plunge before they arrive in China for those "high paying job." Part of it for me is a bit cathartic I must confess. But just like a gold rush, even when the gold mines stop producing, you will always have people coming with shovels to prove that there is still gold. We are just always hopeful as human being sometimes we just have to see for ourselves.

But with regard to bonds, generally, my experience with HKA is that they don't waste the money trying to track you down and the answer I think lies in the fact they can not enforce the bond in court. But this is just what I have heard from many sources and what I have witness while at the company. But I do believe, they might be able to twist the contract language or invoke parts of the contract language to spin the bond issue into some other financial obligation e.g. a loan. Yes, I agree, I am not lawyer. But based on my understanding having worked in Hong Kong for a number years, the bond isn't legal. But I am sure they might have other means if they wanted to run into court to try to pursue you on other grounds. In fact, generally speaking, I think you can probably run into court in a good portion of the world and file something against anyone for anything. Whether you prevail in the long run is another issue. In the world we live in, most western countries have seeded all governance to the corporatocracy who can do whatever they want. I have no doubt that the laws are written in some way that companies can find ways to touch you if they really wanted to. However, your argument is a bit one sided in the matter because it leaves out the idea that a pilot would be able to file a counter claim or grievance in court regarding many possible unfair work related issues. HKA just lost a recent labor case in court so it's not just a one sided issue. The corporatocracy may have an army of lawyers but they are generally expensive ones. But even if bonds were legal in Hong Kong, which I and many people say is it's not (consult a lawyer or just leave with your final pay check in hand), there is no need to drop a MOWAB costing millions on 5 low level Taliban out in field, if you don't have to. Generally, when guys and gals leave, they leave somewhere in the middle or later stages of their contracts so the bond is supposedly reduced every month from your line check. So, you do the math, is it worth for the company. In my experience, cases take a long time in HK courts and especially from observation in Mainland China. Now you introduce a cross jurisdiction case to track down someone you may not even know where find to begin with and who knows how long you have before you recover. But I have a friend who says he was happier flying in another S.E. Asia country for less money. Well, this particular country I think you would have a very hard time collecting anything and spend a crap load of money to make a point not worth proving. At least at HKA, most of the pilot are not from Europe or America, not even close, most are from local countries Philippines, Malaysia, Vietnam, Indonesia, etc Places that from observation MAY have cross border corporation on major things like murders or treason or spying etc ; but for tracking down one guy to recover a portion of a remaining bond issue assuming it were legal. yeah, I am thinking it is a bit of an uphill climb.

[MENELAUS]

An uphill climb ? Just done that reading your post. Can't wait for the book.

[flyer25]

Sorry mate! long delay in China had time to write a bit of a Novel on that one. It will be available in paperback and hard cover soon:E

[MENELAUS]

Are you signing copies in the China Club ?

[flyer25]

Here you are. Good Luck!

[Aikon]

USD21,000 for a Captain position? That seems like a good deal.

Thanks for the good info. I think I will start applying soon.

[Trafalgar]

Yup, really good deal. Come on in, the waters lovely.....

[CaptainJim]

Very informative and well written and after reading it I reaffirmed decision to stay clear as life is too short.:ok:

I think I'm better off in China, at least there you get good cash, better commuting options and cost of living is lower.

Who wants to live in the most expensive city in the world to be paid and treated like :mad: when there are loads of jobs out there?

[Krone]

You talking about Ka ��

[flyer25]

Flyer25, what's an "O" Day? Well, I will try to explain since I was asked in a private message. I have previously posted that HKA lost a labour case in Jan 2017 due to their use of unpaid STBY's days. Previously, STBY days were not paid days. You simply had to be ready to head to the airport when called and it was an 8 hour duty at various time slots. It's a bit like Emirates' old system of having a month of reserve duty except here you had STBY days every month. When I was there you can have as many as 11-12 days of STBYs, unpaid and even 6 days in a row of STBYs.

Why so many STBY days? Listen, I don't think many people quite get it when they are from the Americas or Europe or Australia where having time off and work rights can be imbued into the culture. Don't get me wrong these former places are changing in the same as you find in Asia.

But every time I mention that I worked for HKA to a Chinese Pilot, they say," oh you worked for Hainan. "

Why, because HKA is a Chinese company in Hong Kong plain and simple. As such, it's governance and corporate culture follows. So, time off is not a right. It's a privilege. Let me say that again, it's a privilege:ugh: HKA is a very controlling company, they want to micromanage every aspect of your life. You live to work not work to live. You live in accords to what HKA grants you and you should be happy with the master's generosity because without them you would not be flying a A320 or A330 or A350 and walking around in your pilot uniform struggling to survive in Hong Kong.

Listen, I have always said HKA is a fantastic training company, a place to pick up a type, but not a place to stay. If you need a job and willing to grind it out a bit, please it is a place you can land and regroup and try to escape when you are healthy again. It can be a very difficult place to escape because you will have just enough to keep you coming back to work but not enough to really mount a happy escape. But if you have options, chose to be happy and work somewhere else or stay with the evil you already know.

I just read a post of a guy waiting for his call from HKA. He said they were very friendly and so nice and so good to him. I guess for the guys that have been around a long time and changed a few companies. You just have to laugh. I keep saying, it's like a first date with a woman or guy. The first date tells you nothing really about the other person; you just met! Same with interviews, it almost always feels good. The company rolls out the most handsome or prettiest or the nice training facility. [Oh by the way, HKA is building training facility in Tung Chung. From what I remember, it was to have 10 bays. But most would also be leased out to Hainan and other entities.]

It feels good. What I and most of the guys and gals talk about from these post is really the experience that comes after you are hired and get to look behind the curtains or under the covers. And what lies at HKA, is not a grass is greener type of operation, fews places are really. But if you are young, full of piss and venom and you need a start in your career, you can try HKA. But if you are older and with a family; then you will probably have less tolerance for a place like HKA. Plus when you are in you raging 20's maybe early 30's.....god I miss those days. You can afford a few adventures. But as you get older, it not so easy to land at places that just stresses you and your family out. So, back to how the "O" days impact that happiness!


The court said to HKA, you can either pay the pilot group more vacation time and/or pay for the days. So, HKA being defiant, went back into there conference rooms and engineered a way around the court order. Hence, the "O" day. Effectively, it keeps in place the STBY days without looking like STBY days.

So flyer25, why not go back to court and fight it? because the last case took a few years to begin with....plus most people I think are pretty beaten down and lack any will to fight the system.

Now, you get about a 100 USD a day for your STBY days now if you are a CAPTAIN. But HKA doesn't want to pay that money to you. If you can imagine, that would give you an extra $1000 a month for STBY days for your 8 hours/STBY days.

They still have STBy days as codes on the schedule. But STBY days can be converted to "O" days. So, you see 10 STBY days and you start planning what you will do with the extra $1000 USD. But if your STBY days are suddenly convert at anytime HKA wants, then your new "O" days are not paid JUST LIKE THE OLD SYSTEM OF STBY's before the court case. The "O" day is in effect until the last day of your flight duty. In other words, the "O" is generally placed at the end of a block of flight duty days. At the end of you last flight duty day, you will see 1 or 2 days of "O" days or you can have STBY days converted to "O" days.

When you finish your flight duty, if the crew schedule has not called you after your duty, then the "O" day because a day off. If you have 2 "O" days together, if you are not given something for the first day, then the second is also a day off; so both go to days off. Again, "O" days are not PAID days. You just have to plan to be called until 30 minutes past your last flight assignment blocks in. Then if not called, you can tell your kids that daddy or mommy can come to their soccer game or you can plan your day off with your wife finally. Keep in mind, with a STBY day, you have an 8 hour block to wait on STBY and are paid for a few pence for it.

Like I have said, you can't make this stuff up. But my friends that are at HKA say, they get a lot of STBY days converted to "O" days.

So, now you know and can make a more informed decision or ask about it at your interview before you join.

[sewerpiper]

I was planning on staying out of this thread, but I am one of those "from the Americas" you are speaking about so I had to speak up. Everything you say is more or less true about HKA, but you sure can put a negative spin on it. I came from a US regional that treated me like a prisoner. They truly felt like they owned you and routinely worked you to the point of sheer exhaustion. The schedules were horrible. I certainly have a lot more time at home here at HKA than back home. At my regional airline you were under a lot of pressure to fly their horribly maintained aircraft. There is none of that here. The HKCAD has things so much better organized than the FAA.
I've found that management here treats you good here as long as you return the favor. Yes I have only been here 3 years, but i've never had a situation where I thought they handled something inappropriately. I only make waves when I see something unsafe, and that just isn't happening here. Otherwise you smile, nod, and be polite to everyone no matter what you have heard, and things go OK. So as a guy from the Americas, i'm OK here.

[flyer25]

Well, I would say this, you are absolutely right about this and I have tried to allude to this in my previous post. Europe, America, and other parts are experiencing changes that are a function of the changes in Capitalism or shifts in the economic realties of those areas; and that is a separate thread for this all together. The regional industries have never been good, and that's being generous, in North America, Europe, Australia, South America or even Asia. I join here with a guy from Brazil who told me about things in the South American market that would make regional flying in the US look like paradise. I know guys who have flown for Vueling, Wizz, Easy, Translates airlines, Go Jet etc etc I get it. I do agree it is possible, and I said this in my first post, if you keep your head down stay off the radar, don't try to change anything and bow appropriately, life at HKA can be manageable. But don't think for one moment, underneath all the money that Hainan can throw at HKA in certain areas, doesn't lie this under belly. My apologies, I also get you work there now and I no longer do and there maybe a measure or desire to defend certain things.

But have a look at where many companies are concentrating their recruitment even HKA, South America, Brazil right. Why? Because I know many guys who came to China with me who said the training pay they received 9k at a Chinese Airlines was almost 2 times more than they made in Brazil, maybe! One guy I know, said this, it's more money that I need. This was just training pay, so you can imagine what he thought about full pay for a Chinese Airline, Wow! One of the things my friend said is, I try not to make them upset with me for anything, so I he never talks back and kisses ass appropriately to win a certain favourability he believes. But when we talk about things, he goes on and on about how many crazy things are with the company. But that's privately, because publicly here you keep your head down, pass your medical and PC and you get another 6 months of great pay. But these companies understand the desperation of pilots in these places and seek them out because they will be just happy to have a job and certainly more likely to go along and shut up

I NEVER hear doctors speak the way some pilot's speak. Doctors never say, well you should be happy with just having a job or stop complaining about the work life or rules etc etc or Lawyers, or foot ballers etc etc but who knows, I only know a few in those professions. But I know they all want the most money for the amount effort and dedication they put into their careers. They want to work at the best hospital or clubs or firms that treat them the best, certainly fairly. Clubs, Law Firms, Hospitals, go out of there way to recruit and keep the best people. Period end of story. EXCEPT pilots, they should go along shut up about it and bow your head, bend over and lube up. Why? I think some pilots don't know their own value. As I am typing, I have a QRH out in front of me, I am looking over the computer reset tables, next I will review some items in FCOM ATA 22, some SOPs, and I want to finish the day with a look at the GPWS modes and EGPWS functioning. Why? One, I want to pass my damn PC, not just barely, with no comments. It's part of being a professional pilot, just like Doctors, Lawyers, etc etc It's my day off. So, all I am saying is that, we should demand better from the companies that we work for, not just go along to get along. It's why I left HKA. The money that I make in China makes up for risk that I take by being in China and rules that I don't agree with that make life harder here and why I won't stay in the long run. This is also why I commute on my contract. If you are full time, the company can screw with you anyway they want to and you have to submit for approval when you want time off. Right now we fly 70-80 hours, in the high season it will be closer to 90 hours block. But that's ok, because that goes into my over time pay which is north of $200 per hour. If I fly over 53.4 hours a month, I get over time pay here. At the end of my duty time, I run smartly back to Europe and hang with my lady friend for multiple weeks, recover, and do it all again;oh by the way, the company reimburse my air travel, seriously. Again, I am just saying what was offered and what I experienced with HKA is less than what the pilot there deserve and my post are meant to highlight how that is for people who are thinking of joining. I justify my own bit of hypocrisy on the matter by saying, I am paid a **** load of money to put up with the B.S. other wise I wouldn't and why eat crap at HKA when you can do the same making far more in China. If anything, go to HKE first as your first pick if you just have to go to Hong Kong and burn thru your pay check.



There are not that many Americans at HKA to begin with, so I get it. You mentioned that if you smile and get along and don't try to change the system it's manageable on a certain level. But I would say again, it's where you are in life and what your expectations are for the company and career. I would say the perspective of a person who suffered life at say a regional especially a region first officer making dirt is different. So, for you, being hired by HKA, with the shinny jets, is a great opportunity to get typed and get heavy time fly the A330, A350. This sort of thing is very common for guys who go to many places. Beyond that, I think my posts are still quite valid if you take the time to read what I have posted;but this is also just from mine and my friends perspective on HKA. I get that some may decry maybe a bias, but I have spoken to guys who recently left HKA and who are still there and my own experience with HKA.


I said from the first post, I broke even with HKA. But not everyone does. But I say ask other guys that work for HKA or have been there. It's not about do I think they are the worst place, I have no love for other places from what I have heard. But I have knowledge about HKA and it's world. If I am going to say Emirates as I wanted to back in 2005 era, I sought out people who worked there or stopped and asked why. I got that it was from there perspective etc etc. But that's all it is, a perspective on the company from a fellow pilot which I think helps you decide what you will likely be getting yourself into.

I am planning another thread on my experience in China one of maybe 100 threads that have been posted over the years, it might be more of the same or different. But I am just putting the information that I found from my perspective that I think would have helped me before I landed. For me I have always said of China, the money can make the pain go away for a while but only for a while. Everyone has a different pain tolerance or threshold, so how long you stay in China depends. I think most people would be surprised at some of the dangers and pitfalls and penalties that can come from working in China. I will document it later for those of you who want a current perspective on things.

Again, I have said in all my post about HKA, if you need a job. Get in there, you have to feed yourself and your family and/or loved ones and at the end of the day it's a job. It's always worth going to the interview; but like I said, it's a first date. You really won't know until you are six months in. I liked the vast majority of HKA crews and instructors I came across save but for the ones I highlighted in my first post; but that's pretty common anywhere you go in terms of instructors. Clearly, life has been good for you at HKA, but my experience when I was there was that it wasn't for many people and for many of the reasons I have listed in previous post. Just talk to certain guys who left to go back to Cebu or Philippines Airlines why they left and you probably know who I am speaking about. But at the end of the day, you have to decide what works for you and doesn't. I think of this forum as just that, a forum, you are still able to try to discern what you think you can handle or not handle. What you think is plausible or not plausible of what is being said. Would I do HKA again, NO. I wouldn't, but listen, I got 2 type ratings, I broke even, and made some good friends who feel much the same way I do. Ok back to the QRH and FCOM.

[SoFarFromHome]

Any updates on the package from the roadshow yesterday?

[jetjockey696]

My CIs informed me it was a very full house on thursday.. they included schooling 5yr to 18yr HONG KONG SCHOOLING ONLY. $4000HKD or total school fee whichever the lower. with roster packaging other stuff same same. more widebodies are coming etc. same old spin. My CI. said that the DFO was mumbling when someone ask about ID/Interline travel, virtually none existent if you live outside asia. if you are from america or europe..expect to buy your own ticket home. There ID90/50 etc are only for CATTLE CLASS.. you need to pay for the upgrade to business...doesnt matter what Rank you hold.

- 2 day sick leave per month
- HOusing allowance, mobile phone bills, internet, massages with happy ending, mistress etc. is the MBA(G) money. its your money. do as you please.
- 30 nights hotel accommodation for reporting pilots
- maximum subsidy of HK$34,500 for relocation expenses of household effects
- maximum of x4 one-way economy class air tickets to HK for employee/dependents ONLY WITH HONG KONG AIRLINES NETWORK
- Medical Insurance for employee and eligible dependents holding a dependents visa and residing in Hong Kong
- Group Life & Personal Accident Insurance of US$80,000 coverage for employees
- Employee's compensation insurance
- Mandatory Provident Fund Scheme

Option A
8 non-consecutive days off / month + 28 days of annual leave, including statutory holidays

Option B
2 blocks / month
1st block: 4 block days off
2nd block: 2 block days off + 2 annual leaves

Option C
8 block days off + 2 annual leave / month

SALARY.. is shown below. ALL PRICES are BEFORE TAX!! tax is 15-17% (I would use 17% tax to avoid surprises and disappointments) 1st april to next your march 31st. spend you money wisely dont forget to pay the Taxman..after a year.

http://www.pprune.org/members/58825-jetjockey696-albums-updated-hkg-picture656-hkasalary.jpeg

[bringbackthe80s]

Sorry, I must be doing this wrong..from this table a 320 capt >3000 hrs pic makes about 104.000 HK dollars NET per month?? provided he flies 50 hrs..
And a 330/350 capt 107.000 NET per month
Including housing allowance?

With what I had gathered before, I understood the average pay would be about 140.000 HK dollars net per month, and a bit more on wide body..

[flyer25]

For Option A, you can request certain days off per month, 6 to be exact and you can request 2 flight per month as well. You won't get six days in a row, maybe 4 occasionally. Much easier to get 3 days where you want during the month. But you can sometimes use your annual leave adhoc and combine it with that request ahead of time. So, You would take 5 days adhoc leave and the request 1 day off before or even 2 days off and maybe 2 days off after. You might then get 7-9 days off. Your request are not always available. You have to play it against the month of the request, much easier in say November, non-peak travel. For Option B and C, you don't get to choose the block of days off you want and you take a hit in the pay department which is complete BS.

Don't get worked up by the two days of sick leave, you still have to go get a doctors note on the same day of your illness in order for it to be paid. No doctors note and they will deduct pay and then a nasty note in your secret file.

Remember you get training pay during all periods of training, so you have to do the dollar cost averaging to account for that fact.

Read all those insurance coverages carefully, they are pretty complicated and paperwork intensive. That's all I will say!


140k HKD is a bit high for average, closer to 126-27 on the A330, depending on the season. The most I made was 145k HKD based on 93 block.

You do get pays for red eye flights like Bangkok.

If you have kids, the school fees are no JOKE please account.


I am still holding my breathe for Myid Travel just because I keep teasing my friends that are still there. It's a really interesting carrot, but it's a program run by SAS I believe and they don't share your travel information with the companies is many understanding. Hence, I don't think HKA is interested in a program that they can't spy on you, control where you go, or observe when and where you are going. I know it sounds crazy but just wait and see when you get there.

[mngmt mole]

HKA management. Continue to play your control games. You will end up with exactly what you deserve: either not enough crew, or only crew that are worth what you pay (and that is not meant to be a compliment). The industry is rapidly running out of competent and experienced crew, no matter what management may think or hope. Either you wake up and provide proper conditions of service, or you will have aircraft parked. A big F-off to all the management cretins who pretend that they are ultimately in control. From someone who used to work on the inside, I can assure you all that your day is at an end.

[cpahka]

[QUOTE=mngmt mole;9804433]HKA .....

Cathay & Dragon = Mismanagement & not happy !
HKA = Low pay & fringe benefits in H.K. !
HKE = Same as HKA plus no big aircraft !

Perhaps these choices:-
Hong Kong = Private Jet companies ?
China = Accept the culture environment ?
Middle East = Take the risk ?

[Ecam321]

If you manage to get the option C roster pattern, do you take a salary reduction on your basic ?

[jetjockey696]

No not on your basic.. basic covers up to 50hrs of flt time. you fly beyond 50 hrs. it the flt pay that will see your reduction.. since your be flying for about 2+ weeks. i guess your still be hitting around 70-78hrs per month. BUT I what I got told.. your contract states that the 10 days off can be cut short, if the see the need of crew. NOTHING IS GUARANTEE.

[Killaroo]

Rubbish - intentionally misleading people!
The BASIC PAY is reduced by 9,000HKD for Captains and 8,000HKD for FO's.

Regarding 'flight pay' - you are 'at work' for fewer days (20/10) but HKA policy is that everybody does at least the basic 50hrs per month, so you will do 50 hrs minimum, and that may mean you may have to work your ass off during the 20 days you are at work.
Double whammy - a pay DEDUCTION for the SAME productivity.

If you get to 78hrs in that 20 days (as the JetJockey suggests is possible) you'll be dead on your feet. Remember HKA is still mainly a shorthaul airline.

Oh, and don't forget, they take ALL of your Annual Leave away too.
Enjoy!

[etops777]

If one chose the 20/10 options does HKA provide housing during those 20 days on like Korean?

[Killaroo]

:}

NO!

:ugh:

By the way - the Option C Roster has so far been given to only 5 'legacy' Captains since it began last October. There is a LONG waiting list of other people who have been in HKA for years and want this commuting facility. Guys with families overseas that they rarely get time to visit. They have been given numbers on a waiting list. They don't appreciate what HKA are doing here. They are being insulted by this company which has decided to solve a self-inflicted crew shortage by giving new joiners immediate priority access to these more favourable rosters, ignoring those on the waiting list.
People are rightfully angry! If you think you'll be welcomed by your new colleagues, whom you have usurped by your arrival - think again.
If you try to 'make up' the deducted pay by hogging longhaul trips it will be noticed and it will be vehemently protested to the GMF, who has promised(!) to stamp it out. His already weakened credibility with crews is yet again on the line. You're in the middle of it.

[Hongkie land]

Guys is it the same stuff?

Hong Kong Air Cargo Carrier Limited (http://hkaircargo.com/eng/careers_details_a330captain.html)
Hong Kong Air Cargo Carrier Limited (http://hkaircargo.com/eng/careers_details_a330fo.html) :hmm:

[Killaroo]

No commuting roster at HKC.
It's a 'green field' project, but they are repeating the very same mistakes HKA made when they were starting up.
HKA could have introduced Commuting Contracts from the get-go to attract pilots, and they would have never had any of their persistent crewing issues. But their penny pinching mentality created a crew shortage which is now blossoming into a crisis in which they've chosen to ride roughshod over the expectations of long serving pilots.

HKC is starting in the same vein. Adamantly refusing Commuting Rosters.
Stupidity and arrogance seem to be hereditary.

I have difficulty grasping why any pilot would choose to fly for HKC instead of HKA where there's the likelihood you'll get some type of commuting roster now, options to get on newer/better aircraft, and on longhaul routes (eventually) and where you don't have to spend your life flying 'plastic dogpoo' out of Hong Kong (in the middle of the night).

[bringbackthe80s]

To be honest with good housing benefits and 3/4 business confirmed business class tickets (to anywhere) per year for you and your family there's no need for commuting rosters, plenty of people would be interested.

One thing I can't understand from the salary numbers and conditions posted on here, why would HNA pay 25000 dollars to work for their companies in mainland china but much less at HKA?

[Killaroo]

Eh?
There is NO housing benefit, and NO confirmed tickets.
HKA won't even upgrade Captains to Biz Class on their own services.

Pilots with families (those who desire a good education for their children) aren't bringing them to HKG because the good schools are full, and way too costly on a HKA salary anyhow.
HKG property values are in a crazy bubble, and no wise guy would buy at these inflated prices. That means a life of renting (burning money you could be using to pay a mortgage with) and living in a TINY high rise dog-box apartment in soulless Tung Chung (with your stir-crazy unemployed wife, and stressed out Chinese public school kids). Not likely to be a happy long term arrangement for most. Maybe ok if you come from 3rd world.

No wife/kids? Suits you Sir.
Until a better offer comes along.

One thing I can't understand from the salary numbers and conditions posted on here, why would HNA pay 25000 dollars to work for their companies in mainland china but much less in HKA?HNA made the (incorrect) assumption that they don't need to pay the Big Bucks to Westerners to work in Westernised HKG.....the 2nd most expensive city in the world (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-03-21/tokyo-returns-to-world-s-10-priciest-cities-in-asian-domination).
A desperate crew shortage is the result.

[RubberDogPoop]

...'plastic dogpoo' out of Hong Kong (in the middle of the night).

I expect royalties Killaroo!

[Killaroo]

I'll gladly pay if you can find me a copy of the movie! I've searched everywhere, no joy.:ok:

[RubberDogPoop]

What! You didn't get the 30th anniversary HD edition last year from the Apple store?

[Jammed]

Majority of FOP is and run by foreigners. But all the rest is by locals. And unlike other places where FOP, being the core of airline business naturally runs the show and HR is the backoffice... HKA HR runs the show together with rostering, and FOP is like the acting clown to whom the crowd clap after a performance and by the end of show go back to their cage together with the monkeys and remaining cattle.
They know how much pilots make, they compare that with themselves, and they just hate pilots. This is it. They are owners of the pilot, and they always compare. They don't care if the pilot role is different. They don't care if a pilot work anytime of everyday, while they spend their public holiday with their family and go back home everyday after work.
As they work on a week basis like most jobs from mon-fri they think a pilot should work as many days as they do, and have only 7-8 days off per month. And lucky pilot having 28 days AL.
They don't know what productivity is. If a pilot does 80h in 2 weeks for sure this pilot will have the rest of the month with STBY and O. No way a pilot will have more days off then a office staff, even that the pilot reach nearly 100% of the possible duty for that period.

Now they pay school allowance. But, if you plan to have your kids in international... that offer is just a joke. They did that to tick the box of the allowance. It is better then nothing, true! But assuming they have is like a near-miss.
If you ask: You have school allowance - YES, we have. Indeed... just make sure you read and investigate properly.
Captain with 2 kids in university spend all the money. No luxuries.
FOs with kids have a hard life.
MPF. Yes. But don't forget its just the minimum mandatory by law. It would be nothing if it wasn't mandatory. Comparing it with the competition, HKA pays 10%. Yes 10%.

Commuting roster... don't be fooled by cheap propaganda.
Unless you live very close to HK, you will be doomed.
If you get the so attractive package C with a very limited offer, taking a place that should belong to a very senior pilot, but they use it to lure more participants in the circus instead, you will have a cut in your already overpaid check and give away your AL.
Please note that you will never have more then 10 days off, this 10 days will be company choice and you will have this every month. Do you really wanna go somewhere far every month for the infinite time of 10 days? If you go far, how long does the travel take? Traveling with ID? Don't forget to come earlier, otherwise you may encounter some unforeseen circumstances, and if you cant make it on time for you next duty don't expect any mercy from HKA.
If you prefer to pay full fare for you and your family, its a safer choice, but you will probably burn whats left from your ultrahigh paycheck.

How many airlines Hainan owns? Why can't they just learn from those with better (at least on paper) contracts and apply it in their HK based airline? Their intention is to lure desperate pilots to a "fantasy" city.
If you really need, of course go for it. But if you have no constraints, carefully think about it before act. Don't rush into a decision or you may find yourself beyond the PNR.

[Maisk Rotum]

Lots of informed opinion here. Can anyone shed light on the technical test, the interview and particularly the simulator assessment?

[Trafalgar]

The Lost following the Lost. Sad.

[AngelW]

I will attend the interview in HK in August for the NTR A320 FO position. Any tips on the interview?

[Killaroo]

"Most recent Captain..."
The adventure is just beginning....

[bringbackthe80s]

Most recent Captain to join was from Air Madagascar, with 2000 PIC. Ex lhs 737. Says its 5x more money $$ than he had before and he was promised A350 before 2019.

So whos feeling silly now ?


I don't understand the meaning of this post. Do you mean HKA are extremely smart for doing this? (No need to up the offer)

Does your above example confirm good recruitment tactics? and great candidates applying?

[crazyfootball]

Any inside news about the HKA cadet programme?

[Dragon Pacific]

I hear that HKA are putting together a sign on bonus of $4-500k for locals with HK licence and current 330 rating. I wonder whose pilots that is aimed at?? A good idea to save big training costs, such candidates will be "sim and go", just what you need if planning rapid expansion and the introduction of the A50.

[Strewth]

Hong Kong Airlines: Biggest opportunity in the Chinese market is a long haul LCC CAPA 020817 (https://centreforaviation.com/news/hong-kong-airlines-biggest-opportunity-in-the-chinese-market-is-a-long-haul-lcc-699456)

New Paradigms, Budget Airports (https://www.forbes.com/sites/wadeshepard/2017/08/03/a-new-type-of-budget-airport/) Forbes 030817

[Strewth]

ACCC VA HNA HX UO Alliance approved (https://www.accc.gov.au/media-release/accc-grants-authorisation-to-virgin-australias-mainland-china-and-hong-kong-airline-alliance) ACCC 100817

[mak3434]

I will attend the interview in HK in August for the NTR A320 FO position. Any tips on the interview?

How was your interview? can you share tips?

[Macarto]

Wow. Reading this just makes me feel soooooo happy about my current gig. Pay is good, easy lifestyle, relaxed 10 minute drive to work, tropical living, cheap col, big house paid for by the company, excellent crew, good people to work with, roster up to 6 weeks in advance. I could go on, but I'm on standby so need to head off to the gym (also provided by the company).

What company would that be? :ok:

[Below the glide]

Killaroo

Sorry pal. I don’t agree with your comments here. Option C is offered to direct entry guys. It’s not limited to the senior guys.

[cxorcist]

Below the glide,

A perfect name for you it seems. Stick with that one...

[Killaroo]

HKA has too many Pilots with a serious lack of English proficiency. Some of them have even risen to high positions in the company. Their lack of English comprehension equates inevitably to a deficit in comprehension of the books, especially the mangled English of the FCOMs.

But they will judge you.

[pfvspnf]

Is the package still the same ?

[Ve764]

So what happened to all the hiring supposedly to be going on? I've been waiting for CP approval for two months.Did I miss something?

[Trafalgar]

Yes, you obviously missed the point that coming to HK is a fools errand.

[airdualbleedfault]

Wow, the coolaid is flowing so fast on here you could catch diabetes just reading this crap. A fools paradise

[cxorcist]

Yes, you obviously missed the point that coming to HK is a fools errand.

Truly! Take whatever you think is decent compensation and double it. That’s how expensive living in HK is. Only two things are affordable in HK anymore, a custom tailored suit and taxi fares. Other than that, think Swiss Francs and Geneva with pollution, high population density, and suffocating heat and humidity 8 months of the year. You will live in a shoebox and 9 of 10 locals will wish you weren’t there. Seriously!

[airdualbleedfault]

think Swiss francs and Geneva without the hot Swiss girls :sad:

[jetjockey696]

Even the Hong Kong locals are leaving HKG.. due to pollution, most expensive per sq foot housing in the world, etc

Why Hongkongers are leaving city in droves | Asia Times (http://www.atimes.com/article/many-hong-kongers-leaving-beloved-city/)

Number of people seeking a fresh start outside Hong Kong hits three-year high | South China Morning Post (http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/economy/article/2093010/hongkongers-flying-coop-social-political-and-financial)

[Trafalgar]

Pollution, expensive housing? Leave....? Not a chance, i'm staying (and forcing my wife and kids to stay as well) because "I get to fly a shiny jet"....! And I get to do it for low wages and no benefits. What's NOT to like :ok:

(oh, I forget the added benefit of knowing how much the management values and respects me :hmm:)

[cxorcist]

... and don’t forget how close HK is to great places like Taipei, Manila, and Guangzhou for your touring pleasure.

Western dumps like the Gold Coast, Whistler, and Prague are very far away so you have to bother with visiting those, not that there is any money left to do so anyhow.

[bringbackthe80s]

So now we got to the point of denying that HK is very close to fantastic destinations? (Thailand, Japan, Malaysia, Singapore, Philippines tropical islands, I could go on and on).
I think you came to idealize the west just a tiny bit by now, I know both quite well and I can tell you the atmosphere, opportunities, destinations and mix of cultures you guys have in that part of Asia many people would kill to have. Your kids are millions of years ahead of their European counterparts.
Some here need to get very real. And if eventually you do get to the point of throwing it all away (I doubt it) I would love to hear your impressions after a couple of years in a low cost in Western Europe.

[Trafalgar]

Dude, I can just picture your hairstyle.... :ooh: (and when you say my kids are a 'million' years ahead....you mean, in acquiring lung and skin diseases don't you?)

[cxorcist]

bringbackthe80s

Been there, done that. Had enough of third world vacations. Some of the places I used to go simply aren’t safe anymore, especially with kids. However, Japan is a lovely place and the only decent part of Asia imo. Singapore? Please, that place is more expensive than HK. Cleaner for sure, but who goes there on holiday?

As for your kids being far ahead, I seriously doubt it. That is just something people in HK say to make themselves feel better. Spend that money on schools in the US, Canada, Oz, or Europe; and your kids will be ready for any top tier university, if they’re smart enough.

HK schools teach to the test, not for the love of learning or the arts. Like almost all things in HK, hollow!

[sorvad]

Oh FFS then just do us all a favour and leave. The tedium of your posts Trafalgar just beggars belief. For the love of god, follow the advice you so readily dish out umpteen times a day to others in a lesser position than you and set an example. Go!

[cxorcist]

The questions isn’t whether Traf or anybody else leaves, because I’m sure they will in due time. The question is whether those who stay, like yourself presumably, are willing to fight. Statistically, the answer is probably not. I bet you’re just flying your December roster like always as if your Christmas bonus wasn’t stolen from you. Right?

[Trafalgar]

Sorvad. Thank you for the recognition. It makes my Christmas a warm and fuzzy one knowing I manage to get under your skin (like the rest of our management or management sycophants). I suspect the real problem you have with my comments is the guilt it makes you feel regarding the health of your family. If my comments result in you thinking that through a bit more, then it will have been worth the effort. Happy holidays...cough.

(btw, just had a review of your previous posts....interesting how you mainly seem to support the management decisions and policies. Guess that's just a coincidence. Have a Happy Holiday, enjoy your bonus, you know, the one the rest of us haven't received).

[Trafalgar]

Cxorcist. You make a good point. How can any pilot in this airline not send a vote of protest to our management, in the only way they leave us: our roster. Will be interesting to see who has enough common sense to reply to the company in the only way they will understand (and deserve). Watershed moment in CX history if there ever was one...

[sorvad]

Nope, none of the above....my question is with your call to arms for people with so much more to lose than you to put their head above the parapet and do your dirty work for you, while you sit counting your millions in your ivory tower, smug in the knowlege that you've done your bit by going sick for a month. You're bloody contemptible

[Trafalgar]

Hmmm. You have absolutely NO idea of what I have done over the years to support our profession and colleagues. I can tell however by your response to my (and others) comments that you seem quite comfortable being a cheerleader for this management. So, either you ARE management (my strong suspicion), or a spikey haired 200hr wannabe who doesn't understand the basics of a well rounded life, including all the issues of raising a family, dealing with illness, elderly parents and preparing for retirement. You may not like my comments or their tone, but they are a truthful light shone on the nature of CX management and the destruction they have wrought on both our profession, and individual pilots (three suicides to date, one orphaned child). But you go ahead and suggest i'm the problem, i'm sure that rings true with the majority of readers to this forum...

(oh, and your comment about 'raising above the parapet'. Are you suggesting that other pilots in the airline should do nothing to support their profession and their right to decent terms and conditions?, or are you suggesting that most are too cowardly to do so? Confused... And really confused about the 'doing dirty work for 'me' comment. I thought the whole point was for all to take action to support all, in the best interests of all. Curious. What floor in CX city is your cubicle on?)

[sorvad]

Aaah .....re your edited post, I see you've used your usual retort to anyone who questions your dubious agenda.
Nope, not management, just a normal line pilot with similar grievances to everyone else who's just fed up with your Relentless Holier than thou posts calling for everyone less fortunate than you to leave so as to improve the ones who stay's terms and conditions while you have absolutely nothing to lose.

[sorvad]

Wrong on both counts by the way

[Trafalgar]

I doubt that. Dubious agenda? My only agenda is calling out the malignancy that is our management, and people like you who seem to support the destruction of our profession, and a once great airline. And i'm not 'calling' for others to leave. Just giving them the benefit of my almost 40 years in the industry to point out that there is no career left in CX (because of people with your attitude), and that they should not miss out on the best hiring environment this industry has seen in decades. Or do you think a career of ever degrading conditions, in the worlds most polluted and expensive city is a better bet? If so, stay...and get back to me in 20 years time.

[Shep69]

Seniority is a very big deal in the airline biz. And there are HUGE fights that go on when one airline simply merges with another over this.

I think folks are understandably upset over the years of stolen seniority which has occurred due to our falling off the cliff as of late. Things changed, and significantly changed for the worse--with no fault of the worker bees. No doubt anyone working here can get a decent job and make something out of it. But losing the invested years kind of sucks. Not the first carrier to go down this path and not the last. But I think many were expecting better.

[sorvad]

If you're so bitter, so unhappy with your lot, so relentless in your desire to get people to leave! so vociferously opposed to anyone with a differing opinion to you, and you've not got long to go go anyway, then Why on Earth are you still here. How can you question everyone's motives to stay or join when yours are surely the most questionable?

[sorvad]

Trafalgar, why don't you let others figure that all out for themselves

[Trafalgar]

Ok. I suppose we could apply that logic to everything: (dad, I don't need driving lessons, just give me the car keys...:hmm:). That is exactly what CX management want: each pilot to waste the next 20+ years 'figuring it out', only to then find themselves trapped. Somehow I don't see that happening anymore, and you can now compete with the rest of the worlds airlines in attracting, training and RETAINING experienced aviators. Good luck with that, considering the present pathetic package, and even more pathetic treatment of your pilots. Anyway, you and your management lackeys can enjoy your bonus's, and congratulate yourself on a great 'balance-sheet' year (well, minus the fuel hedge...). All the best in 2018. Will be far less of us to worry about than 2017. ;)

(oh, and even when I have left, i'll still be here shining the light on what has become arguably THE worst management in the modern airline industry)

[Shutterbug]

This was a very decent thread about conditions at HKA, a very relevant topic considering many are weighing their options at the moment. Could we please take the endless bickering about CX to the not inconsiderable amount of threads devoted to all matters CX?

[cxorcist]

This was a very decent thread about conditions at HKA, a very relevant topic considering many are weighing their options at the moment. Could we please take the endless bickering about CX to the not inconsiderable amount of threads devoted to all matters CX?

Yes, let’s talk about the conditions at HKA, a LCC in the world’s most expensive and polluted city. That IS, after all, the new low bar CX has for its pilots. Nevermind one of the world’s largest cargo networks and an iconic global brand built up over many decades. Let’s shoot to be like HKA. Let’s hire inexperienced pilots with low English skills and just do lip service to safety. Sounds about right. Do I have a second?

P.S. Just say no. Say no to people like Sorvad and Morning Coffee. Say no to new contracts and other cuts to your conditions. This too shall pass...

[sorvad]

You see there you go again Trafalgar...you're letting your own personal vitriol get in the way of the facts...for want of an over used hackneyed phrase you're playing the man and not the ball.
I'm not the enemy I'm a line pilot very far removed from management, but that just doesn't fit with your preconception of anyone who questions your agenda, so your knee jerk reaction is abuse.
I'm as perplexed, frustrated and pissed off as the next man with what's going on with our Company, but that's not my issue, my problem as I've said are your relentless rants on this forum for others to go where you don't seem prepared to .......you are a Senior ex Training Captain who is calling for junior impressionable young crew members to leave and go and find something better.....have you any idea what life is like at other employers around the world.?....have you any experience outside of Cathay that qualifies you to proclaim that life out there is so much better?
What I don't like about you Trafalgar is that you are that Cowardly whistle blower sending those under you over the top whilst you hunker down in the safety of your trench and wait for things to get better

[sorvad]

Errr cxorcist, just what are you saying no to?

[cxorcist]

And what are you Sorvad? A fighter or something else? I’m really curious. You do seem very pro management. Do you think CX is a well managed airline? Have you been treated well here? Have your more junior colleagues? How do you justify your position? I find your trench analogy a bit presumptuous. Have you ever been in one? Or even a shooting war for that matter? I’m betting your fortunes have been largely connected to the spilt blood of other countries’ men.

[Average Fool]

I’d say he’s doing you a favor. If you’re too blind to see it, well then, enjoy a crap career.

[cxorcist]

Errr cxorcist, just what are you saying no to?

No to cuts of any kind. No to concessionary talks. No to the AOA’s spineless drivel. No to discriminatory bonus peddling. No to divide and conquer. No to antiquated rostering. No to extremely fatiguing patterns. No to being asked to pay for hedging losses. Need I go on???

[sorvad]

What a very strange reply Cxorcist

[sorvad]

Cxorcist ...no I haven't been in a shooting war or a trench.... bugger...so sorry if that nullifies my analogy

[raven11]

I’m sorry Sorbad...Im not buying it!

There is just too much sanctimony in your posts for me to believe that you’re a line pilot...no line pilot who has been here more than five minutes, and endured endless cuts to pay and conditions, would express the tone which your posts exude.

If you were a line pilot, you would be struggling to deal with the pay cut you received in December...perhaps struggling to borrow money to meet your tax obligations...

In fact, the tone of your missives are strikingly similar to the Company comms. The flippancy in your posts give you away as someone who just really doesn’t like pilots. Have you even read the over 700 posts on yammer? Posts expressing viewpoints diametrically opposed to yours?

I invite you to go on yammer, under your real name, and lecture the hundreds of pilots there?

[sorvad]

And yes, I've read every single post on Yammer...Before you guys point the finger you really should try and check your facts

[cxorcist]

Cxorcist ...no I haven't been in a shooting war or a trench.... bugger...so sorry if that nullifies my analogy

My point is that you’ve probably never fought for anything in your life except your CX command, which I’m guessing you hold pretty near and dear to your heart.

Let me guess, 777? Roster and EFP sweet as pie? House paid off? Grown children out of university? Just finishing up the career? Don’t want to make waves but can’t pass on the opportunity to come on Pprune every so often and talk down to everyone like you do in the cockpit. Long sleeves? Cuff links even? Predictable!

[sorvad]

By the way Raven, just what is it that I might have written that is flippant?

[sorvad]

Cxorcist...all completely wrong ...but carry on

[cxorcist]

It’s really quite remarkable that anyone, besides CX management, would defend CX management. They are so bad at their jobs that it would be laughable if they weren’t hurting so many good people, and trying desperately to do more. I thought DP’s latest missive was a joke. So tired, so repetitive, so clearly fake news. But then there are people like Sobad that actually read and are influenced by it, so I suppose it’s not wasted effort after all. It’s like watching RT or Al Jazeera for news. Does anyone actually believe that garbage? Apparently so. God help us.

[sorvad]

Why on earth do you all make accusations based on assumptions and absolutely zero facts .....it makes you all look so stupid

[sorvad]

Cxorcist, you claim to know what I read....can you tell me just what it is that you think that I have read that You have an issue with

[enoughisenough_]

Trafalgar and cxorcist,
You still haven't explained why you are still working for CX if it is so bad. There are plenty of DEC jobs available and contract jobs, so you can't say you are trapped by seniority. Its about time you stop telling the younger guys there is "no career at cathay". If you have even looked at jobs out there you will realise the grass ain't greener. Now, how about taking your moaning back to the countless threads dedicated to CX and leave this one for HKA.

[raven11]

The guy/girl asking for facts is stomping his/her feet while hurling insults and calling names...

Here are a couple of FACTS...my pay and conditions have been unilaterally attacked and reduced for the past two decades...the pilot/management relationship is toxic...

And you say?

[Trafalgar]

Well, you started out having an issue with me. I'm not sure why however. You say you don't 'like' me. Ok, why? Just because you don't like what I say doesn't make it less important, or less valid. Is what I say about CX and our management untrue? I have been here many years and seen just how destructive the Swire's have been to our profession, but for some reason you seem to want to be angry towards me for pointing it out. If you like it here, then by all means stay. My opinion doesn't matter in that case. However, for everyone else, I am cautioning them as to what to expect if they stay. More importantly, I am cautioning them to not be deluded into thinking that things will 'turn out' for them if they stay. In the past it was probably a better option. Now, with airlines around the world hiring (and improving their packages) it is probable that a better career is to be had elsewhere. That is not to mention the impossibility of truly settling down in the worlds most expensive city without a proper housing package. No one with a wife/family could make that situation workable or livable. I don't want younger pilots to find themselves in the same situation I have: too old to make a change. CX likes to lure people into the company when they are young and susceptible to the 'shiny jet syndrome'. By the time they have had their fill of lies, deceit, bullying, intimidation and constantly changing conditions, many of them find they are too old to make a successful move elsewhere. At that point, extreme frustration, anger and bitterness will be all that's left. I feel that way much of the time, and I at least had the best years of the CX career. Think how much more those feelings will manifest themselves when you can't even look back on that benefit. Again, if you are satisfied, then stay (and we can compare notes in 20 yrs time). I feel an obligation to my colleagues to clear away much of the crap and highlight the facts of not only the current management, but the bigger picture career wise. You can agree or not. I find it curious as to how upset my comments make you. Hard to conclude anything other than you are either management, or someone who is working with and for management. Either way, most of your comments are pro management and pro status-quo. That doesn't add up when evaluating the facts. Regardless of 'my opinion, most of my colleagues have made up their own minds to leave, so the market will determine who has more credibility. I feel pretty safe making a bet on that outcome.

[morningcoffee]

Of course, anyone who doesn’t agree with you is management. After 20 yrs in CX I’m guessing you haven’t got the slightest clue what’s out there for a low time CPL.
I pasted a few of the options, most of which left you £100-150k in debt minimum. Feel free to paste what amazing jobs are out there for 200 hr pilots.

[enoughisenough_]

Regardless of 'my opinion, most of my colleagues have made up their own minds to leave, so the market will determine who has more credibility. I feel pretty safe making a bet on that outcome.

Most of your colleagues leaving, except you. What does that say about your credibility? Especially when you are trying to make others leave to enhance your own position. Don't pretend like you are looking out for the younger generation, you couldn't care less about them.

Also, I think you will find that thr resignation rate is not as high as you try to make it out to be otherwise aircraft would be getting parked. Don't get me wrong, I am sick of CX's continual attack on COS as well, however I probably speak for a number of us who are fed up with the inaction of the people who speak the loudest, especially the likes of you. Now get back to turning up to work early, accepting directs, RETI, using discretion and doing side deals with crew control.

[Shep69]

Hmmmmmm.....

I had a pretty amazing job as a 200 hour pilot. AND a great group of folks to fly with. AND phenomenal hands on training. AND was trained by some of the finest folks on the planet. AND was completely debt free.

Still remember it to this day. All jobs have their challenges, but this was FUN.

Didn't get paid nearly as much as I do now. But for some reason had a great deal more job satisfaction. Funny how that works. I trusted my employer and they trusted me. I took good care of them and they took good care of me.

FWIW, you have pilots worldwide with hours in the hundreds getting paid reasonably well, flying a few feet from another guy's (or gal's) wing, taking gas, flying low and fast, flying high and fast, getting shot at in combat and shooting back, being responsible for bombing the RIGHT target, you name it. And loving what they do--strongly motivated to make the TEAM succeed. Even though the pay isn't the best the training is first rate and they trust their 'employer' and mates literally with their lives. And I think this makes all the difference. What we have had here is a basic breach of trust which has gotten us to where we are.

That the best you can do with the rhetoric, Mr. Coffee ? "We're looking for low time low experience pilots with no where else to go so they can fly our shiny big jets full of trusting souls" Not sure I'd advertise this in the outside world.

[cxorcist]

Of course, anyone who doesn’t agree with you is management. After 20 yrs in CX I’m guessing you haven’t got the slightest clue what’s out there for a low time CPL.
I pasted a few of the options, most of which left you £100-150k in debt minimum. Feel free to paste what amazing jobs are out there for 200 hr pilots.

200 hour pilots don’t belong flying airliners, full stop. They should be earning their way the same as previous generations did before them. That CX is beating down the conditions of real pilots with fake pilots is a sick joke, and yes, the HKCAD is complicit.

[morningcoffee]

Ok Shep, it’s 2017, paste those great jobs on here right now, plenty of C scalers would love to see their options.
Cxorcist, BA and LH have had 200 hr cadets for a while, don’t think they’re quite the :mad: Airlines you make them out to be.

[Staggers]

BA 55 years

[raven11]

enoughisenough.

Join date Dec 2017, 5 posts (two on this page).

Hmmmmmm...

If you would bother to read any of Traf’s 1310 posts, you’d see that he would be the last person to “turn up to work early, accept directs, RETI, use discretion, or do any side deals with crew control.”

Morning Coffee.

You are becoming tedious. Please venture outside your cubicle once in a while. Im afraid that the FAA agrees with cxorcist, 200 hour pilots don’t belong in commercial airliners...

[enoughisenough_]

And my join date has what relevance? So just because he posts on an anonymous forum that he doesn't do those things, we are suppposed to believe him?

1310 posts since end of 2015 all in fragrant harbor moaning about cx. Does Traf have nothing better to do with his life than complain every single day on an internet forum about the company that places food in front of him and his family. Sounds pretty bitter yet he still works here.

He is in no position to tell others to leave or say how great life is outside of cx unless he himself hands in his resignation.

Good luck finding a contract as good as the CX one which doesn't involve living in Mainland China. Traf knows it and that's why he continues in his miserable existence at Cathay.

Time will tell whether or not removal of ARAPA will cause a spike in resignations but I am betting the majority will stay.

And before you say I am pro-company or a management stooge... I'm not, I'm just a realist. Attempting to convince LEPs to resign is not going to improve your contract. All you are doing is contributing to the already toxic workplace and I would hate to have to share the flight deck with you.

[Trafalgar]

Hello DP. You're up early today. And btw, that's 1311 now. I told you, I am ensuring that the dissemination of propaganda by CX is countered with the facts. Only those in management react as you do. You make it an ad hominem attack. You never address the FACTS of the message, only attack the messenger. That's the beauty of the internet, CX can't control it. I have plenty of time to analyse the diatribe of rubbish that comes out of your offices and I then repackage it to shine a bit of clarity for the benefit of my colleagues. And that is the difference: they are my colleagues. Not my adversaries, as they are to you. If I can help one 25-40 year old pilot from wasting his career with an employer that clearly doesn't deserve him/her, then I am grateful. If I can help that person find themselves settled in their home country with a happy family, living in decent accommodation and their children not at risk of asthma or worse, then it's worth it. This airline is treating it's loyal, hard working and experienced pilots with contempt and disrespect. I've put up with that for well over 20 years, and i'm hoping that others needn't suffer the same fate. As for you and your kind, your entire purpose is based on nothing more than moving a pencil around, and envying others. That is the type of person that is truly pathetic. That and the deluded belief that somehow 20 ish year old cadets can supplant a battle hardened and experienced workforce, without drastic and tragic consequences. Only a clueless bean counter can't see the absurdity in that.

[raven11]

Agree Traf.

“...share the flight deck...”

Ha ha ha..Who talks like that?

It’s either a contrived attempt to appear to be a pilot, or someone half way through Adelaide. In either case ENE is obviously not a pilot.

[Trafalgar]

....and if he is, heaven help us...:rolleyes:

[enoughisenough_]

oh look, the same old retort you always use when someone doesn't agree with you Traf and raven, I must be management... Good one. Meanwhile still dodging the fact that you guys are still working at CX and yet to provide any evidence of a better job.
Traf is raven your second account you created so you can agree with yourself on the forum? How pathetic.
You guys have mental problems and definitely are not suitable to be commanders.

[Trafalgar]

Post #7 Enoughisenough? Stop being truant from your CX cubicle job and get back to work (oh, I forgot, it's Christmas...only the front line crew are working today. Enjoy the holiday's).

[Luggage]

I thought this thread was supposed to be about working at HKA and providing facts on things like the interview process, what does the sim check consist of, monthly take home pay, helping newcomers get settled, financial assistance etc.

Anybody care to share any of those things.:ok:

[Krone]

Welcome to HK, CX guys always put their sticky beaks into everything.

There’s a long running post on Norwegian Long Haul TnC over on Terms n E. The Poster Direct Bondi made 100s if not 1000s of anti Norwegian posts .
A bit like Trafalgar.

Norwegian have just announced record pax numbers, 50
Plus new routes and a happy bunch of 787 pilots, based over Europe and now the USA.
Good luck Traf, but pilots vote with their own feet , and accept perennial wingers for what they appear to be.

[Air Profit]

Well Krone, not sure what your point is. Traf speaks for the majority, of that I can assure you. And as for 'voting with their feet', that is exactly what most CX pilots are planning on doing (some to Norwegian ironically). Btw, Churchill was also considered a 'perennial whinger' just prior to WWII, but what did he know eh? (what's a 'perennial winger'...someone who flies a lot...? :rolleyes:).

[swh]

Hainan Airlines the parent of HKA had its shares suspended from trading.

[hyg]

Hainan sold their shares in HKA to Frontier Investment Partner L.P, and they are no longer the majority shareholder..... Hainan owns only 27% direct now according to local news

[Luggage]

Is that now a good or bad thing. I guess depending on who owns the rest. Does it look like HKA may improve dramatically or go down the swanny!

[nicoli]

Any update on the financial situation of HKA with what's happening with HNA ?
Heard they will not get new aircraft anymore ?

[bringbackthe80s]

To be honest I am wondering a bit, HKA was there already for some years and wasn't doing very good..My understanding is that the game changer was Hainan.

[jetjockey696]

HKA is becoming like Emirates with recruitment videos..

https://dms.licdn.com/playback/C5600AQGElVBMthUJCg/03a9d8127e214d5e8128a120ec5f8e32/feedshare-mp4_3300/1488578169071-zmy00q?e=1516980145&v=alpha&t=HoU5acWCCN598sicPZrKbbJjlu74Z4Y90_D3MBwmFSU

[Luggage]

Where hope goes to DIE!:ugh:

[returnofthemack]

Is HKA on the brink of bankruptcy or something.. Seems like there's been a lot of new paper talks about the parent company, HNA, being in financial troubles. No?

[Lions Gate]

HKA is too politically important to the mainland Govt. They have decreed that HKA become the primary carrier in HK. The money supply will not be interrupted.

[bringbackthe80s]

This is good news. And to be honest I liked the video, it's a pretty cool lifestyle if you ask me.

[Cpt. Underpants]

The real answer to the “education” question is “can’t afford ESF or International schools, they’re not at my income level, so we’re sending our kids to a local school”

[Gnadenburg]

Seems a pretty dishonest video if you've ever been to Tung Chung.

[mngmt mole]

The cost of schooling is prohibitive for expat pilots. A decent school, that is based on your home countries standards will cost you hundreds of thousands of hkg $ to even get you children a place, never mind the ongoing costs (and no, CX does not cover the additional costs, which are considerable). No expat that I know would even consider placing their children in a 'local' school, for all the unsaid reasons. :hmm:

[Weary traveller]

Great video. I think they're working on their next one at the moment. They've found a homeless person to interview with a positive outlook on life.

[Dan Winterland]

And to be honest I liked the video, it's a pretty cool lifestyle if you ask me.

Tung Chung. Your Blade Runner lifestyle.

[bringbackthe80s]

Couldn’t care less about Tung Chung to be honest. You can live in many other nicer places.

The thing you guys are missing is the reality of many many many pilots nowadays. Wake up, do 4 legs, 11 hrs duty, 4 landings in possibly bad wx, 15 hrs rest, repeat. Ad nauseam. For half a CX pilot’s salary (C scaler).
If you were 28 years old now that’s probably what you’d be doing too.

I am not defending the sickening management practices and bonuses here, just to be clear. But I just want to remind you why HKA with choice of short and long haul, interesting trips, based in a modern city, is appealing to a lot pf people. Like it or not.

[Commuting Pilot]

The thing you guys are missing is the reality of many many many pilots nowadays. Wake up, do 4 legs, 11 hrs duty, 4 landings in possibly bad wx, 15 hrs rest, repeat. Ad nauseam.

Ain't that the truth!

[Killaroo]

Video says access denied.
Got another link?

Watch for news of the CNY bonus in HKA.
If no bonus being paid - bad omen.

[jetjockey696]

https://youtu.be/s2uuzWeTL1E

AND Why you pilots love Hong Kong..dont want to leave this Asia World City (slightly older version)..

https://youtu.be/ieipE5afGfA

[etops330]

More evidence of HX in financial trouble, rumour there won't be any bonus for cabin crew this year, I flew into Dublin today and saw two A330 in Hong Kong Airlines liveries in storage.

HNA group of companies have delay deliveries of new aircrafts. Is HX the next Oasis Hong Kong?

[schweizer2]

Terrible news for CX crews if HKA goes under. Based on what I read here, it will take all of less than an hour for CX management to launch a full scale attack on the terms and conditions!

[cxorcist]

... and yet CX will be making so much money if HKA goes under that cutting the contract will be very difficult to justify. Such is the nature of economics...

It also doesn’t help CX with the training ban, which combined with the global demand for pilots, is our only true leverage. Hang in there trainers... Do the right things! Colleagues, resist any temptation to join training please...

[TheGreenDragon]

I flew into Dublin today and saw two A330 in Hong Kong Airlines liveries in storage.

HNA group of companies have delay deliveries of new aircrafts. Is HX the next Oasis Hong Kong?

You sure they are in “storage”?
More like a refit or heavy Maintenence by Dublin Aerospace?

Who whould store their new planes in a wet & windy expensive airport when there is endless desert parking in the US? ( which is far from preying eyes!)

No evidence from airbus that HKA are slowing down deliveries , with the 4th A350 arriving after is maiden flight later next month . Their 5th A350 should arrive mid year .

[Air Profit]

HKA is a favoured child of the mainland Govt. They will grow and prosper.

[cxorcist]

I strongly suspect this is true. I don’t think HKA is going anywhere. They will be a continual thorn in the side of CX.

[Apple Tree Yard]

The mainland Govt. wants to establish HKA as HK's flagship airline. The Swires are already aware of this, ergo they are desperately driving down costs at CX in order to sell the airline. CX is yesterday's news.

[cxorcist]

Surely, any potential buyer would be aware of the Mainland’s intentions. So why would another airline buy CX? Honest question.

[tiredofstupidity]

CX is essentially 30% owned directly by the mainland government right? Also 49% partner in another joint venture? Those are fairly solid political connections. Some might say at least as solid as those of HKA...

You don't fabricate massive losses in an attempt to sell the airline.That is nonsensical. They are actively suppressing the share price. CX is a cash cleaning machine for Swire. You think all those cans of coke, clean duvets, ground handling services and HAECO engineers come cheap? They don't.

In the end, It really doesn't matter who owns what. CX flights are full generally. HKA's are too presumably. All the aeroplanes being to delivered to Hong Kong and all those people are going to be flown by somebody. Until the importance of HK is as an aviation hub is reduced (a risk) or the robots take over there will be job security.

[azhkman]

HX is pretty good for the price actually. The hard product in business class is below CX, but the ticket is about 30% less. It's an interesting point though, if HNA Group as a holding company blows chunks and fails; what happens to the subsidiaries that may or may not be profitable, like Avolon (Irish ops, HK HQ), Hainan Airlines, Capital Airlines, HX, etc...?

Secondly, to me it seems more like the mainland government wants to takeover CX via Air China, and dissolve the CX brand--probably the most iconic HK symbol in the world.

Good thing HSBC kept it's HQ in London then...

[Below the glide]

You sure they are in “storage”?
More like a refit or heavy Maintenence by Dublin Aerospace?

Who whould store their new planes in a wet & windy expensive airport when there is endless desert parking in the US? ( which is far from preying eyes!)

No evidence from airbus that HKA are slowing down deliveries , with the 4th A350 arriving after is maiden flight later next month . Their 5th A350 should arrive mid year .

They’re not in storage. They’re both former EK aircraft they have gone through a major cabin fit. Near completion and I head they flying to hk soon.

[act700]

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/63780-hong-kong-airlines-set-for-more-ownership-changes

Can't access the article for free, unfortunately.

[cpahka]

from CAPA
https://centreforaviation.com/insights/analysis/hna-considers-selling-hong-kong-airlines-investors-may-be-shy-394979

[bringbackthe80s]

Yes I has read this article, not sure what it means though.

HNA already sold most of their investments in HK airlines, so my question is, what is different now from the non-profitable pre-HNA HK airlines?

[Krone]

Uncertainty.Thats what it means.

Anyone who’s considering joining at HKA the moment would have to be quite courageous to chuck in a stable position to head east. Unless they have faced redundancy or perhaps divorce.

HNA have the financial muscle . Cathay have the resilience.
I know which one I would feel confident will reign victorious .
And thats before their crews are dealt a bloody nose .

[Lions Gate]

CX may be resilient, but what's the point if they provide a worthless career for people. Not worth a slice of stale bread anymore. With the faster promotion, at least you will get your command hours years earlier with HKA than at CX. At least then you have marketable skills in the industry. Joining CX now is just a waste of your career, and will ultimately be a decision you will bitterly regret.

[etops330]

Well, now Emirates and Qatar have lower their requirements for first officer. Pilots no longer need to stopover in the far east to get their wide body type rating to join ME3. It's only a matter of time before things will improve. Even Ryanair recognised BALPA, miracle do exist!

http://www.emiratesgroupcareers.com/pilots/

To join us as a First Officer you should have experience on multi-engine, multi-crew, turboprop and/or jet aircraft, including business jets with:

Minimum of 2000 hrs on MTOW ≥ 20T
OR

Minimum of 3000 hrs on MTOW between 10T & 20T
On top of this you will need to have:

A valid ICAO ATPL (or USA equivalent) with an unrestricted class one medical certificate

Pilots with Frozen ATPL, type rated on Airbus or Boeing, can be invited for the selection process on the proviso that they obtain a full ATPL, if successful, prior to joining.
English language fluency to ICAO English level 4 or above
Flown at least 150 hrs within the last 12 months on an aircraft with MTOW ≥ 10T

[bringbackthe80s]

I didn’t realize the middle east was ever the final goal..

[TheGreenDragon]

2 man crew on the EK 777 red eye return from Kolkata with a FO with ICAO level 4 and a few hours on a 10 T on bug smasher. Then the EICAS says dual eng failire.

Rather them than me . I’ll stick with CX.

[Trafalgar]

Hahahahaha. And you think that is any different than what we are now dealing with? Welcome to our new Mumba turnaround through the night pattern. At least EK pays profit sharing, has relatively quick commands and seems to be improving their contracts on an ongoing basis. Oh, and the last time I checked you don't live in a shoebox in Dubai either.

[cxorcist]

2 man crew on the EK 777 red eye return from Kolkata with a FO with ICAO level 4 and a few hours on a 10 T on bug smasher. Then the EICAS says dual eng failire.

Rather them than me . I’ll stick with CX.

Huh? Same, same at CX, possibly worse. Or are you kidding us again?

[Trafalgar]

No, it's worse. Declining EVERYTHING at CX. No promotion, no housing, no profit sharing, no girls you can actually have a laugh and a beer with (and don't discount that last point over a long career), no chance to put any money away, no proper medical, no proper retirement. I could go on, but those are just a few of the items that EK provides at a higher level than CX (or just about any other airline from back home as well).

[Trafalgar]

No 380's :ugh:

[ACMS]

What you think we should have bought that ugly piece of crap that nobody else apart from EK now wants?

Sure the Sandpit is one happy place, I mean they have a higher turnover than we do. :D

[Trafalgar]

On a percentage basis, we are at a higher rate of resignation. You can't have one/two or even three members of a heavy crew saying they are looking for a new employer almost every flight and not have the industry leading resignation rate.

[volare_737]

I think its funny how the Cathay CX guys just take over !Is this not a thread about HKA ?

[ACMS]

Sorry Volare .......back to you.

[Trafalgar]

What....you mean it's not all about me ! :eek: (fair point, back to the correct topic)

[volare_737]

haha - funny - Checked today and HKA is still flying !

[Freehills]

So, apparantly 34% has been sold to these guys

Frontier Investment Partners (http://frontierinv.com/)

Hmm

[Slarberg]

I am thinking to apply for a DEC with HKA.

How is your roster guys?

Are you flying only China flights? Or mixed a during a month? Long haul + short haul?

Thanks

[Farman Biplane]

Why would anyone go to HKA as DEC when you can get a mainland China contract and earn significantly more?

[ANTIPHOLUS]

Have you seen the place. PRC that is ? Or spent much time in it.
The salaries are paid for a reason.

[mngmt mole]

Umm, you can be based in your home country, so what is your point?

[pfvspnf]

HKA package still the same ? No increase even with need for more crew?

[Air Profit]

Everything evolves, you just have to be patient.

[MainDude]

Let’s see whether HKA pays bonuses. That’s the acid test whether the company’s trend is positive or negative.

[pfvspnf]

From the other thread HKE has got one month! Did HKA pay out ?

[johnpilot]

I have been told that the pilots were expecting a month's salary for CNY, however they received nothing. Cabin crew were expecting around 3-4 months, but instead received 1 month.

Apparently the a350 due end of February may be delayed and morale on the line has dropped significantly, with many pilots now actively looking to leave.

The Los Angeles, Vancouver, and Auckland routes are not doing particularly well, and apparently with Hainan in dire straits the expansion may be all but over.

They did just receive a very old a330! It's from Avalon so a Hainan Group of companies. The a330-343, they were expecting in December will not come as the lessor did not want to take the risk. It is parked in Tarbes.

I have also been told that the company is not in trouble as it is profitable, however without the backing of Hainan it will not be able to expand to all the destinations they want to serve.

Don't shoot the messenger

[TheGreenDragon]

They did just receive a very old a330!



No worries, Cathay Dragon will take that when Hainan pulls the plug.

The reason the routes are not doing well is cos business travellers don't trust the perceived lower experienced pilots working at HKA. Their perception, but Philippinos, Brazilians and a few Russians isn't a great selling point.
Don't shoot the messenger :)

[HH Chan]

Wow..why the nation naming? So u saying Filipinos, Brazilians and Russians are dangerous pilots?

[cxorcist]

Sensitive much? Snowflake!

[Progress Wanchai]

Wow..why the nation naming? So u saying Filipinos, Brazilians and Russians are dangerous pilots?

It’s fair to say that the aviaition regulatory bodies in those countries make the CAD look like being on the cutting edge of aviation oversight.

As the poster said, it’s all about perception. Are those concerned businessmen catching flights to Manila for open heart surgery at Ferdinand Marcos public hospital?
You can legislate against xenophobia, but you can’t legislate what’s in someone’s head. (Except maybe in Philipines, Brazil or Russia)

[HH Chan]

Curtain rod

So u agree mate? U are better of with Kwai lows in asian airlines? Cmon.

[A350HK]

Wow its all kicking off here isn't it?

[A-V-8]

In the meeting, 23rd FEB 17, it's apparently 38% pass the gauntlet . Let me say that again, 38%.


Thank you for your honest and through response. I probably will not apply to HKA based on this number.

I am currently working at FlightSafety international as an instructor. I haven’t flown with any regularity since being hired at FlightSafety.I am looking for a job.

If my pass rate was that low I would be fired. It reflects poorly on the instruction. I have NEVER had a client fail on my current airplane.

It brings me to a few questions:


Why is the failure rate so high? Airmanship,Systems Knowledge, Blown approaches, Crashed ets.
Where is a good place for me to apply? I need to be an F. O. for a short time to get the ups and down back in my short-term memory but I have 7K TT and plenty of Jet PIC.
I am looking for F. O. time and a fast upgrade.


Back to this checkairman who is a total crap shoot. (I’m a checkairman) When he says something stupid you respond enthusiastically with “I have heard that before but someone else told me it wasn’t in the manual. Can you show me where that is?” Consider reading up on how to manage a “Yellow” personality before your next encounter.

[Turbopapi]

How was your interview? can you share tips?
Any updates on this?

[timmy123]

Do you know how many new hires (cadet and experienced hire) per year approximately?

[MainDude]

If my pass rate was that low I would be fired. It reflects poorly on the instruction. I have NEVER had a client fail on my current aeroplane.

It brings me to a few questions:


Why is the failure rate so high? Airmanship, Systems Knowledge, Blown approaches, Crashed etc.
Where is a good place for me to apply? I need to be an F. O. for a short time to get the ups and down back in my short-term memory but I have 7K TT and plenty of Jet PIC.
I am looking for F. O. time and a fast upgrade.





The reason for the low upgrade success rate is unfortunately subjective. Those who fail say that they were failed unfairly for small things. It's not lack of systems knowledge. My personal guess is lack of Situational Awareness, Communication Skills, Startle Factor, Problem Solving and Decision Making. Google the ICAO Doc 9995, and find the competencies in Appendix 1.
Good place for a quick upgrade is probably not HKA. Try Vietjet, Whizzair, Lion, Malindo, Cebu Pacific etc.
Aren't all F/O's? You need to be thinking of what you can offer the airline instead. You'll be duly rewarded if you bring the "right" attitude and be willing to work hard.

[bringbackthe80s]

To be honest I’m more interested in the post-hainan situation! Any update on this?

[bmw216gt]

what is the time to command for Fos in HKA?

[A350HK]

what is the time to command for Fos in HKA?

Any where between 2-5 years depending on ones flying hours.

[pineteam]

I am looking for F. O. time and a fast upgrade.


You can try next door at Air Macau. They take DEC and DFO. Only 2 years after release to start the upgrade process if you join as FO.

[Mr. Green]

what is the time to command for Fos in HKA?

Depends on
1. color of Passport. Preferably the non-Singaporean red
2. if you came from the greatest and the best: MH/MAS
3. The kind of shoe polish you got
4. How well one kisses (insert body part)
4. Which friends u got in management
5. How well one understands nepotism

There are Bolehsian FOs and then there are Napoleon’s FOs!!

Just come here, enjoy the work, and don’t expect too much. When it’s your turn and your file haven’t been mysteriously “overlooked” or bypassed in seniority, just give the course a shot and see what happens!

[Rudolf_123]

Somebody mentioned that HKA pays peanuts for STBY.. How do they compensate for other ground duties, incl. simulator training, office duties etc. - or is this all part of "basic salary"? also, do positioning hours count towards productivity hours?

[baylover]

Well, when you have a former Cathay Cat "D", pilot being taken on and bypass very competent pilots to be assistant fleet manager with lightning speed what do you expect.
Cat"D", Cathay, unsuitable for command.
Political appointee only, not based on intelligence and ability.
The bloke's a moron.
The Chinese english assessor, gave a Brit a 4 for English assessment????.
It is a screwed up company, and without Hinan support it will struggle.
But you know mainland, they will not be able to face the embarrassment of such a public humiliation, so they will support it and bring it into the "fold",.
So it will survive, with the morons at the top.

[CodyBlade]

I guffaw'd at 'Bolehsian'. That's v good.I must use that too..

[MrAndy]

Any updates on how things are at HKA with the current HNA situation?

Morale? Outlook?

[Below the glide]

Depends on
1. color of Passport. Preferably the non-Singaporean red
2. if you came from the greatest and the best: MH/MAS
3. The kind of shoe polish you got
4. How well one kisses (insert body part)
4. Which friends u got in management
5. How well one understands nepotism

There are Bolehsian FOs and then there are Napoleon’s FOs!!

Just come here, enjoy the work, and don’t expect too much. When it’s your turn and your file haven’t been mysteriously “overlooked” or bypassed in seniority, just give the course a shot and see what happens!
I’ll disagree here. They’ve change the way they manage the upgrades and is all fair and square. Forget those past

[Below the glide]

what is the time to command for Fos in HKA?

It’s around 2-3 years. Currently at 2. Depends directly on expansion plans. Things are moving quite quickly

[act700]

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/65588-hna-group-airasia-group-in-talks-over-asset-sales


AirAsia Group Chief Executive Officer, Tony Fernandes, says the Malaysia-based budget carrier holding has discussed possible acquisitions with HNA Group.

In an interview with the Nikkei Asian Review, Fernandes said he had met HNA co-founder and Chairman Wang Jian and spoke with him about possible cooperation between the sides, adding that he "for sure" would consider acquiring unspecified businesses from the ailing Chinese conglomerate.

On whether AirAsia Group was interested in acquiring HNA Group's interests in Hong Kong Express (UO, Hong Kong Chek Lap Kok) and Hong Kong Airlines (HX, Hong Kong Chek Lap Kok) Hong Kong Airlines and Hong Kong Express, which are owned by HNA, Fernandes said, "We are always interested in whatever opportunities go our way." He went on to highlight that discussions with Wang have so far not been about airlines in Hong Kong specifically.

HNA Group has been disposing of its various assets as well as equity in its operations as a means of raising liquidity to meet debt repayment deadlines.

According to Bloomberg News, Hainan Airlines Holdings is planning to sell some of its office buildings and hotels in Beijing and Shanghai to cover its maturing debt. The carrier holding has a total of nine properties up for sale, with an estimated book value of CNY14 billion yuan (USD2.2 billion).

Among the assets for sale include the Shanghai NHA Tower, the Shanghai Yangtze International Enterprise Plaza, and the Renaissance Shanghai Pudong Hotel.

[Thunderclap88]

For guys who are actually in HKA, how's the Command Upgrade coming from the 330?
What's the percentage of the FO's from the 330, upgrading on the same fleet vs upgrading to the 320?

[Krone]

Who’s going to be coughing up the $$$ for the ridiculous huge new HKA building , now blocking the views from Ka house n hello Sh1tty City?

[raven11]

An airline can never employ enough ground staff....

[Rudolf_123]

Anyone knows what's the education allowance that HKA offers?

[cpahka]

Anyone knows what's the education allowance that HKA offers?

only in Middle East nowadays...

[Rudolf_123]

only in Middle East nowadays...
Thought HK Airlines started offering child education allowance last year??

[etops777]

Thought HK Airlines started offering child education allowance last year??

They did. 4000 HKD per month per child upto 3.

4000 HKD will not cover much of the school fees.

[hyg]

They did. 4000 HKD per month per child upto 3.

4000 HKD will not cover much of the school fees.

Heard from someone it's up to 10k a mth now

[Luibar]

Just saw the package on offer from one of the agencies and there was no mention to any kind of school allowance.

[Luibar]

Is the package from HK Express any better than HKA?

[Mr. Green]

I’ll disagree here. They’ve change the way they manage the upgrades and is all fair and square. Forget those past

BTG, How I would really love to agree with you and wish it was true. The latest "Visionary" gathering begs to differ. Ask yourself how many were from BAS, I mean MAS. I know for a fact even the fine qualified chaps from Tony's airline were conveniently overlooked and bypassed in the system. These chaps at least do not have the snobbish attitude like their MAS counterparts. They should be reminded they are no longer in Bolehsia but working for a Chinese company. Najib's reputation is already as bad as it comes - we do not need these Bolehsians from BAS making it worse for all of us Malaysians!!

And how many more from BAS are being expedited bypassing the seniority system with backdoor shoe polishing sessions? We will never know but it would start if everyone grows a pair.

Again, we, crews from all ranks, would like to think and believe the upgrade systems is transparent but this simply is not true and will never be as long as Napoleon and his Boleh soldiers are at the helm.

Maybe it's time to rename this company to MKA :ok:.....and go back to basics. Thank you Airbus for the protection laws.

MKA Boleh! :D

[Betsy]

Singapore's Temasek keen to buy HNA's stakes in Hong Kong Airlines and Hong Kong Express | South China Morning Post (http://www.scmp.com/business/companies/article/2142077/singapores-temasek-keen-buy-hnas-stakes-hong-kong-airlines-and)

[Far Canel]

Was just wondering if HKA or HKE we’re taking low hour pilots?(i.e. 1300TT 400 Mutli command, ICAO ATPL subjects).
i notice that CX are starting to ramp up their recruiting. Thank you in advance
Far C

[Krone]

Regardless of the mess in HNA its clear that HKA and HKE will not be short of suitors if/when it comes to a sale. HKA/HKE is well situated and very quickly gaining ground on CX and KA dominance....the power shift is well underway.

That as likely as Norwegian running BA into the ground. HKA will simply be bought out if they become annoying to the incumbents .

If this is indeed a SE Asia investor, don’t expect the company to expand as freely as the last 2 years. .Expect a trimming of the package if its the Singapore government. Doubt they will tolerate Malaysians running their fresh purchase!

[azhkman]

The times I have flown them (2 r/t flights, all A330s, one BKK and one YVR), I've had an Indian captain, American (or Canadian) captain, a Singlish speaking (I confess, could be Malaysian), and what sounded like a Southern European (Spanish, maybe Portuguese?) captain. However, on the Vancouver flights, all of the reserve crew going to and from business class were definitely Chinese, maybe Malaysian Chinese. The flights were fine--actually the cabin crew on the flight to Vancouver were spectacular. I honestly don't care where the pilots are from as long as they don't have a death wish.

In the end, HKA will have to boost its package or be satisfied to be the minor leagues to other airlines around the globe--or, and what I think will happen, hire people for whom Hong Kong is better than where they call home. No one is really trapped in Hong Kong. It's all about what you are willing to tolerate here, versus what you are willing to tolerate at home. Maybe they can offer commuting contracts from BKK since they seem to fly 5-7 times a day, around the clock.

I'm not sure a Singaporean investor would care if it was a Malaysian Chinese running it. And I do think they'll look to try to hurt CX with HX in a way that could benefit SQ, with a wink and a nod--if a Malaysian shares that vision, then so be it. A codeshare with SQ and possibly Star Membership would seem about right. I do wonder, how they'll avoid the Jetstar problem, if they want a controlling stake? Is there a friendly HK firm, or person, willing to be the front man eager to take on the CX/KA behemoth.

[Below the glide]

That as likely as Norwegian running BA into the ground. HKA will simply be bought out if they become annoying to the incumbents .

If this is indeed a SE Asia investor, don’t expect the company to expand as freely as the last 2 years. .Expect a trimming of the package if its the Singapore government. Doubt they will tolerate Malaysians running their fresh purchase!

Malaysians are not running HKA....it’s the Chinese. Flight operations is the service provider to the airline. Operation of aircraft doesn’t necessitate ‘running’ an airline.

[Ipadholder]

@stvnbrkbck
can you share how your interview went? and how long did it take you to hear from them or agency for your interview date, after applying?

Thanks!

[STVNBRKBCK]

@stvnbrkbck
can you share how your interview went? and how long did it take you to hear from them or agency for your interview date, after applying?

Thanks!
about 15 minutes.

- ATC clearance copy and read back (about 10 times)
- ATC read back with short instructions o advisories (about 10 times)
- short story on which you have to tell what is the main subject (about 5)
- And repeat a few sentences

[SW1]

about 15 minutes.

- ATC clearance copy and read back (about 10 times)
- ATC read back with short instructions o advisories (about 10 times)
- short story on which you have to tell what is the main subject (about 5)
- And repeat a few sentences

Not to rain on your parade- but you've just passed the company specific English Language test! You still have a panel interview and sim check, as well as the ICAO English test if youre successful. The skype thing was introduced as too many guys were being invited to HK for interview and not being up to ICAO level 4 standard.

[Pajarito]

Not to rain on your parade- but you've just passed the company specific English Language test! You still have a panel interview and sim check, as well as the ICAO English test if youre successful. The skype thing was introduced as too many guys were being invited to HK for interview and not being up to ICAO level 4 standard.

I just had the same Skype english test, I am guessing it was just a filter to get to HK and actually do the admission tests.
If we pass this stage and get invited, do you know what are the tests about?
Do they take any knowledge tests as ATP subjects or something like that? to study in advance...
I know they take a sim test, any tips for that? I am applying for the non type rated and I have never flown the airplane before, not even on a sim ¡¡¡ (we dont have A330 sim in my country, if I wanted to rent a few hours to practice) so trying to gather as much information as I can.

Thank you very much you guys¡

[unstableapproach]

FWIW you will have to sit the ICAO again and from what I've seen over the last few years no South American has been awarded level 6. Overwhelmingly a level 4 is the norm. One Brit is level 4 and several level 5.
Pretty well every applicant holds some sort of ATP.
And not everyone gets through the interview process. Plenty of high quality applicants.

[Krone]

“if I wanted to rent a few hours to practice”

I Gotta laugh , a few hours practice , I mean wtf, 10 hours? 20? .
If you suck at English or flunk the PR interview, aint no way on earth you will get in , no matter how good your 10 min sim check goes.

Same for all companies now. Its the mind set they interested in . Not the right stuff. If you have this, then no need to practice. Right?

[Typhoon Surfer]

You're the joker. Thinking you're hired because you passed an ELP test.
And he's right, English Proficiency at HKA is a hot topic, and whatever you hold right now will get shot to pieces in the HKA test.
Better bone up on your English. And lose the accent.

[JMock]

nice one buddy, you’ve put a target on your chest voluntarily. HKA recruitment monitor this thread.
classic fail

[unstableapproach]

deleted your post about level 6 and ATP a tad too late
it was spotted

[Pajarito]

“if I wanted to rent a few hours to practice”

I Gotta laugh , a few hours practice , I mean wtf, 10 hours? 20? .
If you suck at English or flunk the PR interview, aint no way on earth you will get in , no matter how good your 10 min sim check goes.

Same for all companies now. Its the mind set they interested in . Not the right stuff. If you have this, then no need to practice. Right?

Can you please tell me why do you assume I don’t speak english? I have actually lived in the US and spanish and english are not even the only lenguages I speak.
It it’s actually very rude to mock someone up without knowing the person.
Even if it were the case where the applicant it is not so good at english, why do you think it’s ok to spread all your bitter personality around when nobody actually cares about what you think?
Having said that, good luck to everyone, and hopefully life gets better soon for those negative ones that posted last, pretending they know it all.

Isabel

[SW1]

[QUOTE=Pajarito;10228425]
Even if it were the case where the applicant it is not so good at english, why do you think it’s ok to spread all your bitter personality around when nobody actually cares about what you think?

I think what Krone was trying to emphasise is that HKA might care how good your english is.

I dont think he was attacking you personally and yes ridiculing a non-native english speaker is not on - but if your future employer does not think you are up to standard linguistically then they really will not care if that hurts your feelings. You simply will not get the job.

I am speaking generally not specifically about you.