Three Day Week

[jayc530]

Not that I read the Daily Mail...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4215714/Soldiers-offered-three-day-week-no-line-combat.html

[Ken Scott]

Reminds me of an old strip cartoon that did the rounds many years ago, suggesting a 3 day week for servicemen- much incredulity from the RN ('what good's a 3 day week on a ship?') & the army, punchline was 2 RAF pilots sat in the bar - 'What's this I hear about our having to work overtime?'

[Danny42C]

That I should live so long and have to listen to this !

Truly: "Quos Iuppiter vult perdere, prius dementat" ("Those whom the Gods wish to destroy, they first make mad").

This can't be true. If it is, then it's time I went !
Danny42C.

[ACW342]

As Trump/Pence Ha'penny would say - fake news. If not, some Richard Cranium in the MoD needs said cranium examining

[downsizer]

Not fake news.

Several options in the trial.

90 days unpaid leave per year.
Non-deployable for a period of time.
And a third option I can't quite recall

[Out Of Trim]

Unbelievable..

What on earth is going on at the MOD these days ! There is something fundamentally wrong. This can only stem from the Civil serpents employed there.

They seem to have no idea how a Military organisation should function. There is a lack of support for the military from within at all levels. Leading to poor procurement, poor recruitment and openly organising unjustified criminal investigations of service personnel.

The MOD appears to be working against the Armed Forces and is no longer fit for purpose.

I despair..

[XV410]

Take the unpaid leave option and how does that affect your pension, anybody thought of that ?

[downsizer]

Yes they have thought of the pension issues. Details are in the IBN.

Whatever anyone thinks these options are being trialled because people who are in are asking for these kind of options. For better or worse, the hope is it might keep people in.

[alfred_the_great]

Unbelievable..

What on earth is going on at the MOD these days ! There is something fundamentally wrong. This can only stem from the Civil serpents employed there.

They seem to have no idea how a Military organisation should function. There is a lack of support for the military from within at all levels. Leading to poor procurement, poor recruitment and openly organising unjustified criminal investigations of service personnel.

The MOD appears to be working against the Armed Forces and is no longer fit for purpose.

I despair..
Nope, this is Mil inspired, and it's a very good idea.

Your "quip" about civil serpents indicates quite out of touch you are - why don't you totter off somewhere else?

[4everAD]

My concern is we're stretched enough as it is, if personnel have the opportunity to opt out of deployments then those left to cover will deploy even more and possibly feel inclined to leave. One "good" thing to do would be to move all perm downgraded personnel onto ftrs contracts with no x factor that might "encourage" a few miraculous recoveries.

[jayc530]

It's quite simple, we need more people than we currently have. If we have the right number of people to undertake all of the tasks, people won't feel over-stretch and they'll stay.

We are undermanned in nearly position; take a look at the Compedium of Statistics on the Manning website. The summary on page 19 of the 2016 edition clearly highlights where our Manning resources are going.

[Pontius Navigator]

I know I could not afford 90 days unpaid leave with a wife, 2 kids, 3 dogs and a mortgage to support. OTOH as a cash rich, time poor singly it could be a boon as going on long haul, long time vacations. Doubt many could afford to do it every year.

Also an economy measure - cuts the wages bill but retains numbers that are not needed at that moment.

[StopStart]

As an Auxiliary, I completed a questionnaire on this subject a few months ago. It was looking lots of options for Regulars as well as options for us reservists to "do more".

At least they're trying all the angles. The money isn't there to pay people more so they need to be imaginative.

[kenparry]

Reminds me of an Army officer of my acquaintance, decades ago:

He: "I hate meetings on Wednesdays"

Me: "Why is that?"

He: "Obvious, it ruins both weekends"

[Biggus]

I thought that "working from home" was another option under consideration - if it is taken up, one has to ask quite how that would work...?

[downsizer]

Working from home is an option under Flexible Working. I work from home sometimes as I am in a mobile position. DII laptop and a mobile, can't complain TBH. Clearly it isn't compatible with every post.

This relates to Flexible Duties, they are two different strands.

[Pontius Navigator]

I thought that "working from home" was another option under consideration - if it is taken up, one has to ask quite how that would work...?
Did that in my final job.

Morning tea, read papers, shower, dress, coffee. Ring in, check zilch, get ready for fitness regime. . .

In my SiLs case, as a wg cdr, he would log his laptop in and do actual work even.

[trim it out]

Of course a three day week would not be a feasible option for all units across the board.

However, there are units already working a non standard pattern, 14 Sigs being a prime example that works Monday to Thursday. Other units only have 25 odd useful working hours per week anyway once you factor in the late start Mondays, PT sessions, sports afternoons, tea and toast skives and early knock offs on Fridays.

[jayc530]

Meanwhile, back in the real world.

[MG]

It's responses like most of these on this thread that drive me away from Pprune for long periods.
Why on earth are these ideas so risible? The Forces are losing people and any real incentives that can keep experience, in whatever form, can only be applauded. Yes, allow part-time working, keeping child carers employed who might otherwise leave. Yes, home working is feasible. I left 2 years ago and have worked from home, typically on a Friday, since. If people are weekly commuting to one of the remaining units, then looking forward to getting home Thursday night, taking the kids to school on a Friday morning, but yet doing a good day's work on the laptop afterwards must surely help quality of life.

As a previous poster said, those who object need to wake up to the realities of the working environment. If the MOD can't go some way towards reflecting what the civilian world has done for years, guess which way service personnel will be drawn!

[Melchett01]

I thought Adminers already did the equivalent of a 3-day week, once you considered the lunches, daily trips to the gym outside of lunch, morning / afternoon NAAFI breaks, early stacks on Friday, time where sections close for 'training' and not to mention AT.

And yes, I am jealous. I'd quite like to spend more time with my family and friends, but I knew what I was getting in to when I signed on the dotted line. But it does grate somewhat when the pain of ever increasing tempo is so unevenly shared. I don't expect to see much difference in who is likely to accepted for reduced duties, and those who could really benefit from a 'respite period' are unlikely to be included.

[Out Of Trim]

It's quite simple, we need more people than we currently have. If we have the right number of people to undertake all of the tasks, people won't feel over-stretch and they'll stay.


jayc530 I agree with you!

Alfred the not so great. I disagree.. They appear to be trying to be EU PC. The armed forces are not like civilians. The manning levels were cut back far too far in the first place; leaving them with the crisis levels we see today. No wonder experienced staff, having been undermanned for so long will not put up with it anymore.

Maybe you could take your own advice !

[MACH2NUMBER]

OK, so who is going to do the real dirty work now. In 38 years, I moved my family 18 times, and spent many months away from home. My wife acted as the social comfort for wives of all ranks and we never had a permanent residence of our own. Its very possible that we were financially stupid, but that is how we were brought up in the military at that time. I have few regrets, I had a great time and a very enjoyable operational flying career. However, I really worry for the future of our Forces The military ethos has pretty much gone, it is now an enjoyable, but temporary job. Also ruined by the lawyers, politicians et al. What goes around comes around, will we wake up before it is too late?

[Danny42C]

Has the possibility of another war of some kind been taken into account ? If so, .
how would we propose to fight it ?

If not, what are our Forces for ?

The Romans had it right: "Si vis pacem, para bellum". Works every time.

Is Kim Jong-un likely to introduce a similar arrangement ?

Danny42C (silly old man, not "With it", I suppose).

[Stuff]

There's also the 'enhanced leave' option which is different to the 90 days mentioned earlier. Basically, you hand back 30 days of normal leave and in return you get to take 50 days as a single block. I asked my boss about taking it and the laughter could be heard at least 1 TACAN away...

[Hangarshuffle]

Should have brought this sort of thing in years ago for the RN. Said ages ago on here we needed to evolve the manpower deployment.
MG you are spot on ( just bothered to read your post, few are worth reading).
I was roundly and rudely slated for suggesting 2 years ago the Libya RN deployments were out of kilter and we needed to go onto something like a 6 week about structure.
Its not coincidence we have submarines out of service, ships broken and not deployed....think more deeply about it.
In civvy street< I just cant emphasise enough how easier life is for people who work, how well looked after they are compared to the RN.
Grow up PPruners.

[Hangarshuffle]

Danny its the pay and conditions mate> Fuc ksaske how long you been out? ?Do you actually work outside?
Danny how old actually are you? the Romans were 1600 years ago and they got wiped out in the end by invading forces.... they didn't evolve.
Mach 2 no its gone, its long gone.
1. Junior rates weren't looked after well enough. Many left, word got around among the remainers.
2. Collapse of morale following defeat in Iraq and Afghan ( oh yes - we were defeated).
3. ****e, utterly ****e comparable pay/crap fringe benefits.
4. Some diabolical leadership by our own Junior Officers. Young JRs wont wear it anymore. Class distinction/class derisory sneering (its very prevalent).
5. Downsizing of the remaining force added to unhappiness above.
6. Continuous IHAT added along the way to a feeling of vulnerability.
7. Buoyant employment market for go getters....

I could go on a hundred fold on why people should up sticks and leave. But let the remainers moan on about how it was in their day....

[BEagle]

Hangarshuffle, I cannot believe that you can have had the temerity to have been so insulting towards one of PPRuNe's most erudite and valued elder statesmen, Danny42C.

Personally I feel that the forum has tolerated your unpleasantness for long enough; the words of Oliver Cromwell to the Long Parliament are most apt in your case.

[mopardave]

Danny its the pay and conditions mate> Fuc ksaske how long you been out? ?Do you actually work outside?
Danny how old actually are you? the Romans were 1600 years ago and they got wiped out in the end by invading forces.... they didn't evolve.


That really wasn't called for.

[Union Jack]

Definitely time for you to pipe down, Hangarshuffle, and shuffle back to your hangar. You have fired some pretty ill-informed and biased salvoes since you joined this forum, but you have certainly picked the wrong target this time and you should be roundly ashamed of yourself. I am truly embarrassed that a former member of the Royal Navy should have written what you did.

It's thanks to brave men like Danny that you are free to spout such unpleasantness, so apologies are very much in order, although I won't hold my breath.

Jack

[Tankertrashnav]

Danny I tip my hat - I never knew the original Latin quote which we usually translate as "Whom the gods wish to destroy..."

As regards hangarshuffle's rather rude remarks, in a similar vein may I offer him this quote from Schiller:

Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens (Against stupidity, the gods themselves battle in vain )

[Two's in]

Meanwhile, on another planet nearby, the 9/80 schedule is very popular. Although 9 hour days mean an early start, getting every other Friday off is great. The military needs to incentivize its members, and if that means creative thinking on work patterns then do it.

[Out Of Trim]

Hangarshuffle,

Danny has done far more for this Country than you will ever do! Have you not read of his historic service. Have a little respect please. You do certainly owe him an apology.

I feel the same unease as Danny about how our once proud armed forces are literally falling apart before us. Some very senior officers need to get a grip of things before we are left defenceless. Apparently the PM was unaware that none of our attack submarines were serviceable. Our T45 Destroyers have major engine issues and the RN is now trying to recruit retired crew up to age 60.

The government have cut our services far too far and treated our servicemen and women with utter contempt; so that now we are left in such a poor state.

The people of this country are totally unaware of the true position. I'm astounded at how such a large military budget can be so mismanaged and misspent to such a degree.

The first Duty of Government is Defence of this Country. It seems that a few people need reminding of that at all levels.

[Whenurhappy]

Whether we like it or not, the Forces reflect Society. 15 years ago the arguments were about gays serving or women going into forward areas; 25 years ago it was whither women aircrew. Admin officer training in the early 1990s still taught JOs to counsel pregnant airwomen to seek an abortion or leave the Service. None of those changes have weakend the forces. Offering more flexibility to encourage people to stay cannot be a bad thing. We can all probably think of good, trained people who left out of frustration of a 'system' that could take no account of personal circumstances. I think (from my own experience) of the archaic rules 'expecting' spouses to accompany the SP into hardship/high threat assignments. If they don't, allowances suffer, CEA is withdrawn, appraisals coloured and so on.

[Jimlad1]

Ultimately part of the problem is innacurate and sensationalist reporting entering the media which is 'sexed up' for a good story (e.g. T45s or Attack submarines), coupled with a lack of understanding about what the trial actually is.

Fundamentally one of the great self-perpetuated myths of the military is that every man is poised in a warry unit, ready to deploy at a moments notice to inflict harm in foreign lands. The reality is that a lot of the military work is routine, often quite mundane, and can easily be done in a variety of working patterns. Very few parts of HM Forces either work 24/7 or are on call 24/7, and the vast majority of sites are often working a core 0800-1600 day for training, with plenty of padded out 3 day courses spread over 2 weeks, or long NAAFI breaks and extended lunches.

The working culture though that has also emerged over the years in some quarters (particularly FLC HQs) is an unhealthy one whereby people 'feel' they need to be at their desks, often in earlier and out later than the boss. People don't take all their leave, and people don't feel that their work life balance is particularly in kilter. People don't mind working hard for preparing for a deployment, but get fed up of being thrashed senseless doing long hours in an office job, as if a mark of productivity and output is to be sending emails at 9pm in the evening.

If we move to a system whereby people can ask to amend their working patterns for a short period of time, to get quality time with their family or help with childcare and just to spend time with loved ones is entirely sensible. If we give people a bit of time back, and give them the chance to spend time with family during a less operational tour, the chances are that they won't resign because they can't spend time with their family.

Just because people arent working a 5 day week in an office doesnt mean they are any less productive. If someone wants to take some unpaid leave to ensure that for 6 months they can look after a child, or care for a relative, is that really such a bad thing? Industry and Civil Service has adapted to the 21st century and often is very flexible on shorter weeks with compressed hours, or taking a short career break. What matters is the output, not the process by which the input is delivered.

The working world has changed, but we have persisted in a 19th century social hierachy and mid 20th century (at best) practises in a digital age. We are losing good talent hand over fist because people have had enough - often they don't want to leave, but their family has to come first. By giving people the means to spend time with them, to have a bit of work-life balance, we increase the chances of them staying longer - given the choice between having FS Bloggs out every Friday for a year on unpaid leave, or waiting another 15-20 years to recruit and train a replacement FS Bloggs, I know what I'd want.

Instead, the moment this broke, a bunch of retired dinosaurs started whinging to the papers about how awful it is that the military are trying to come up with working practises which motivate people to stay. This sort of obsolete attitude is a bloody good reason why people are leaving, and going to places which place a premium on offering ways to keep their people, not saying "Here is the only way of doing business and you should be grateful for it."

This is one of the most enlightened things the MOD has done for years to look out for its people, and as usual all some people can do is moan.

[Bob Viking]

Jimlad1.

Well said. I have nothing to add.

BV

[MOSTAFA]

Jimlad1

a great post and a worthy read and I could not agree more with you; in a perfect world - its just a pity, I have never lived or served in one. It may well work in some parts of the armed forces, I have little experience of them. But I just don't see how it can work in a sustainable, deployable, Army one (unless of course the Army triples in size). Happen the trial might prove me wrong. I actually think I might have sat looking out the same window you are!

I may well be one of the retired dinosaurs you mention but I did have the courtesy to discuss his 'take on" this, with my son who is currently deployed for 7 months on Shader and has already been told he is likely to return within his present 2 year tour due to MOD changes, sorry I think its called restructuring now.

[Toadstool]

I read this in the Independent and it offers an amusing take on the subject, and how to help solve some of the problems with the NHS.

It's time the Government saw sense and sent the Army in to sort out the NHS crisis | The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/nhs-crisis-british-army-trident-underfunding-troops-accident-and-emergency-a7576316.html)

Military doctors and nurses would be priceless, but medically untrained troops also have a vital role to play. Squaddies could be positioned in A&E triage nurses’ consulting rooms, under orders to fire at will at anyone who turns up with an ear infection, sore foot, or any ailment best dealt with in the first instance by a pharmacist.

They’d have to shoot to kill, because the last thing any hospital needs is a gunshot victim bleeding out on a trolley midway through a refreshing 57-hour wait for an imaginary bed. But hey, cruel to be kind.

For anyone who likes war films, the discovery that military service can keep you from your family would come as a visceral shock. You remember the tear-jerking scene in The Dambusters, when Guy Gibson refuses to fly a crucial mission because his Great Aunt Tabitha in Rottingdean has a heavy cold, and he’s worried it will go to her chest if he doesn’t get home to nurse her in person.

[Jimlad1]

I'm not sitting in a room with a window in my deployed location :-)

The problem that I have with the Army is that its full of a lot of very self important empires who seem determined to fight the battle of the Regimental Preservation Order, not the battle of keeping the talent and the Regiment going. My experience over many years with the Army is that it is genuinely culturally unable to change and take a long hard look at itself at how to do things better or differently. Instead it just assumes the whole 'oh but we have to be at contingency to defeat the Groombolian military tomorrow' philosophy, while preaching about how the military personnel are great because of their flexible 'can do' attitude.

A truly flexible 'can do' attitude would quickly grasp that a lot of the enabling bits of the Army don't really need to work a rigid 8-4 day 5 days per week in an office. Quite large chunks of the Army are office bound for large chunks of the time, and could easily compress hours, or look at doing things a little bit differently. Would the world really end if Sgt Bloggs didnt work every Friday? Would we be functionally defeated if Maj Jones took a 3 month unpaid leave to look after his kids?



I think we need to be better at defining what is operationally essential (e.g. working in a J3 post in a unit at 24hrs ntm probably isnt conducive to this), and what is routine business where flexibility needs to be the order of the day. Instead we fall back on the old 'but its easier to do things as they were' than to ask what difference it makes. Its not beyond the wit of man to look at posts, identify those that aren't conducive to alternative working arrangements, spot those that are, and flag that up in the job spec so that people are aware of the circumstances when they consider their posting preferences. Yes the needs of the Service have to come first, but we could make it a lot easier to consider the needs of our people with very little tangible difference to outputs.

The military has to recognise that it needs to work really hard to retain talent at the SR/mid seniority officer point, and that for the sake of a shorter working week or a few months unpaid leave, we are potentially losing a lot of people who cost us enormous sums to train and have many years of experience lost forever.

[Tankertrashnav]

Around 200 years ago, the navy and army had "half pay" officers. if you weren't needed on board ship or for regimental duties, you were sent home on half pay until such time as you were needed again, although in many cases this period of inactivity became permanent. Service pay in those days was not meant to provide an income on which you could live, as nearly all officers had private means of a sort, so half pay was certainly not enough to subsist on - just a way of keeping you at the behest of the Admiralty or War Office, should you be needed

[Wyler]

As I have said on another forum, the effort now is to recruit the youngsters of today, not yesterday. It does seem alien to those like me who have retired rom the Service and probably a fair percentage of those still in. But, as a CS working as a Phase 2 sim instructor, I have seen so much talent leave after a very short space of time for the reasons laid out in previous posts. If the Military does not evolve and adapt then it will eventually disappear. This solution is not perfect but it is a good step in the right direction.
I do fear, however, that we will soon also see the end of the Messing system and a further blurring of the lines between ranks. We can survive without the former but the latter is not good in a Military Force.

[MOSTAFA]

Jimlad1 then perhaps you should consider changing your location and profile and I won't presume, as it says you are in London @ the MOD.

You do indeed seem to have a problem with the Army. You are totally missing out the deployable bit, in your brilliant thesis. I am not disagreeing with you at all but if the 1 Blankshires are off to whatever operation tomorrow and there is no bugger left but the 2nd Blankshires to replace them in 6/8 months, what do they do - stay there? Or as is, quite common at the moment, in the SNCO/WO/SO2 posts that you are quite rightly identify as a problem area and conveniently move them into the 2nd Blankshires 6 months down the line.

I am not condoning it but actually I don't see how the wonderful new order could cope. I guess thats why there is a trial!

[ORAC]

Things have obviously changed in the (god! Is it that long!!) 18 years since I left.

At least in my part of the RAF we didn't have any slack. Every post noted as non-digital had privatised. We ran a nominal 4 people to fill a 24 hour post - 48 hours on in an 8 day cycle - but had to cover it when someone was sick, on a course, in the Falklands etc, and leave of course.

Not sure I'd have been impressed if one of the 4 had switched to a 3 day week and 90 days holiday a year.

[Jimlad1]

Mostafa - my location is my business thanks very much!

I don't have a 'problem' with the Army - I served alongside it in various theatres in my military days and have enormous respect for it, but I do have concerns about how the Army is adapting in areas to the 21st century.

I think you vastly over estimate the scale of the challenge - at best you'll see a small number of people take up the flexible working - and I suspect those who do will either be gone for a short period (e.g. a few months) or miss the odd day per week. In coping with it, it would be like any other short term detachment for operational duty, or someone going on leave. Its just a period of absence which you wont be paid for - which I suspect will stop a lot of people from doing it.

Don't forget that its not going to be automatically granted, and that it can be turned off at any point. What I suspect will happen is that you'll see it applied for by people in certain phases of their life, and not whole platoons signing off en masse to work a 3 day week. The problem is the breathlessly sensational way this is reported, as if half the SAS will tomorrow stop working for 2 days per week.

I suspect too that an element of 'punchy fun stuff' will keep people motivated to stay in, and that those in deployable units will not want to take too much time off for fear of missing out on operations. I suspect many of those who take it up will be in Office roles. Its a simple matter though of stating that flexibility doesnt apply to units held at certain levels of readiness - after all, when was the last time we deployed Bns en masse at 24hrs notice?

[alfred_the_great]

jayc530 I agree with you!

Alfred the not so great. I disagree.. They appear to be trying to be EU PC. The armed forces are not like civilians. The manning levels were cut back far too far in the first place; leaving them with the crisis levels we see today. No wonder experienced staff, having been undermanned for so long will not put up with it anymore.

Maybe you could take your own advice !
The irony of being told by a former member of the RAF that the Armed Forces are not like civilians.

[MOSTAFA]

Silly me Jimlad1, I thought that when you decided to put your location on display on a public forum it became the property of whomever cared to look!

I am certainly not overestimating anything, I did actually agree with your post, as I said; right up until you dug a bigger hole for it.

You see, I think the biggest problem with your reasoning is that the Army don't do short term detachments for operation duties. The reason - there isn't enough of them, sadly the pitfall of this well intentioned plan which incidentally, I can only see exacerbating an already fairly taught elastic band.

Your last sentence was absolutely right A the G.

[Jimlad1]

"You see, I think the biggest problem with your reasoning is that the Army don't do short term detachments for operation duties"

You are conflating two things - I mean 'detachment to go and do jobs elsewhere, be it course, augmentation for an exercise, detachment to go and work in another organisation for 6 weeks, or all manner of other operational duties that Soldiers can and do engage in' (all of those examples have happened to soldiers who have worked with, or for, me).

[MOSTAFA]

The only conflating being done is by you.

you said

"In coping with it, it would be like any other short term detachment for operational duty, or someone going on leave"

You meant

"I mean 'detachment to go and do jobs elsewhere, be it course, augmentation for an exercise, detachment to go and work in another organisation for 6 weeks, or all manner of other operational duties that Soldiers can and do engage in"

Operations are operations, exercises are exercises, soldiers only engage on operational duties on operations and whatever way you dress it up there are not enough to go round no matter who gets half the week off.

[Jimlad1]

I am really not remotely interested in engaging in a 'he said, she said' argument with you as it seems destined to end up in a pointless semantics debate. My points stand, by all means go and enjoy discussing the different interpretations of them or where posters live, but I am afraid that I have no desire to continue this debate with you.

[langleybaston]

Risible idea indeed. What about combat readiness?

As per, for example, Falklands.

"Get the lads in sharpish!"

"Sir, 25% are on the 90 day option and most of them have gone walkabout >...... Himalayas, crossing Atlantic in open boat, Sh*****g themselves silly in a yurt ........"

"Oh! drat!"

[Danny42C]

(#27 refers),

Gentlemen,

I seem to have rattled a cage here ! First let me thank all those who have leapt to my defence so swiftly; it does my old heart good to realise that I have so many friends in this our old cyber crewroom.

But now to the nitty-gritty:

Hangarshuffle, it would be helpful to know your age: I have always thought that it should be mandatory - (not optional) - to declare age correctly here, as it enables the rest of us to place you in the general timeframe, and this is important.

In answer to you: I'm 95 as stated here. I retired from the R.A.F. 45 years ago. "Work outside" (odd question ?) - well, I flew five years in war, then two as a civlian pen-pusher, flew five more years in Cold War (does that qualify as "outside" ?), medically grounded, spent last 17 years in Air Traffic Control (mostly warm, snug and dry). What is the relevance ?

Let us not all pile on top of Hangarshuffle too readily, for there is a fundamental problem which needs to be addressed: we have not had a major war for almost three generations and are in danger of forgetting the nature of the beast. The first disturbing signs were to be seen in the Falklands in 1982, where the curious notion of an "area-limited" war, a "half-war" (ie, only in the "Exclusion Zone") was first mooted. Immediately the anomalies appeared:

The Captain of "Conqueror" has the "Belgrano" in range, torpedos ready to go.....what does he do ? .... he signals Northwood to ask permission to fire ....... (What would one of Nelson's Captains have done ? - and Nelson would've Court-Martialled him if he didn't).

"Oh, those poor Argentinian sailors left to drown in the 'Belgrano'...... was/wasn't it in the Exclusion Zone ?" .... was it in the Zone coming out ? .....or outside going in ? ....... Why was it at sea at all ? - to give the crew a health-giving cruise ? - or to do us harm ?

Pardon me: Argentine has invaded British sovereign territory. A State of War de facto exists. You are entitled to defend yourself. You hit your enemy as hard as you can with everything you've got. We bared our teeth only once: Black Bush did minimal damage to Port Stanley airfield, but the subtext was clear: if we can get so far, we can get to Buenos Aires - (and who knows what might be in the bomb bay ?) Galtieri had that to think about !

Shift to Afghanistan, last year I Posted an excerpt from the "Daily Tel". (The Thread concerned the well- merited appointment of the first WRAF Officer to command a FJ Squadron). A threat had been detected. A Tornado was scrambled to remove it. I believe they have a cannon in the nose . But they didn't fire it, but just buzzed the 'baddies' - they ran off. ..... DCO (???)

Minimum Force, you see. You do not win wars in that way, I'm sorry to have to tell anyone who thinks you do.

But, Hangarshuffle, you've hit the nail on the head with:
...it's the pay and conditions mate...
Pay them properly, house them and feed them properly, give them a decent future - and they'll stay ! If not, they won't.

My thanks to our Moderators for allowing me to get my piece in before lowering the boom on this !

Danny42C. (still moaning on about his day - and will continue to do so !)

[Wander00]

Danny - your penultimate two lines are IMHO the telling ones and are allegedly inscribed in the "Military Covenant", which seems to be honoured more in the breach than the observance

[trim it out]

Danny, reference your point about use of minimal force in Afghanistan, there are many reasons why lethal force would not be used even in cases of what appear to be clear cut self defence. Track the squirters and protect CNI are two reasons I have used off the top of my head.

[MOSTAFA]

Have a read back Jimlad1 and see who started it! Having read it again in fact. it was never 'he said - she said" but 'you said - you meant' The 'semantics debate' of the plan, are precisely why in my opinion it won't work. Some bored staff officer has come up with yet another gem, another crock of ticking all the modern, sound bites and boxes for the some bean counter in the MOD.

Our distinguished gentleman above at 95 years old summed it up far better than anybody so far - Pay them properly, house them and feed them properly, give them a decent future - and they'll stay ! If not, they won't.

Nobody ever told them it was going to be easy when they joined.

Well said Danny42C.

[Hueymeister]

Can anyone post a link to the Compendium Of Statistics mentioned earlier in the thread please?

[MPN11]

If I may tiptoe into the topic as someone who spent most of his 30 years acquiring a shiny seat to his trousers ...

A bit of workspace flexibility is, IMO, a good idea in certain areas. Now, we could debate endlessly where/when/who/how but the fact exists [or existed] that there are many people in many posts who could, I'm sure, work a 4-day week without any significant impact on 'The System" ... provided they go full-throttle the rest of the time. Three days might be pushing it: that would surely have the Establishment people getting out their magnifying glasses! However ...


I have a friend in the USA, a quite senior Govt employee [wg cdr/gp capt equivalent] who works from home on her laptop much of the time in Arizona, and occasionally flies over to DC for 'face time'.
At NATS, I worked a 4.5 day week, leaving Kingsway Friday lunchtime to head home to Locking. Because ... I didn't take an hour or so for lunch, and always got in early. My Head of Section was a former lt cdr RN pilot - and a good leader of his Team.
At MoD, in the AFD as Head of Section, I was not one of the late-night workers [who were usually on the Lodging List, and thus had nothing to go home for]. Again I was in early by most standards, and I left [to shocked looks] every afternoon at 1630. Again, I didn't take lunch breaks, I just got on with clearing the contents of my In-tray.


It doesn't take a huge leap of imagination to be able to extrapolate that sort of flexibility across large parts of the Mil community.

[Saintsman]

These suggestion are fine if manpower is sufficient, but they will always be trumped by operational requirements.

Someone may ask for 3 months off to look after the family, but if there is no one to backfill them, the request will be denied.

I have the opportunity to work from home, and when I have an appointment from the Gasman or whatever, who tell you they can visit 'sometime between 8 & 5' it's a godsend.

But I can take my laptop with me. Anyone in a technical role won't have that luxury.

So if an individual looks at others and find that they have flexibility and they don't, I'm not sure that it will entice them to extend their service.

Its an idea worthy of discussion, but it has to be applied to all, not just some. I imagine that it will cause more problems than it will solve.

[Biggus]

It could certainly be a major cause of resentment if not handled well.

It doesn't matter whether someone is getting a better deal than you, what matters is whether or not you think they're getting a better deal.

[Pontius Navigator]

, the effort now is to recruit the youngsters of today, not yesterday. . . . I have seen so much talent leave after a very short space of time for the reasons laid out in previous posts. If the Military does not evolve and adapt then it will eventually disappear. a
Wyler, indeed the requirement is retain those that you recruit. Would a ?proper reserve commitment work? Naval officers on half-pay was mentioned. Rather than stating 'and four years on the Reserve' actually pay a retainer, tax free, like the Reserve Forces bounties, but with no training commitment. Enshrine in law that an employer must release you if required.

[MPN11]

It could certainly be a major cause of resentment if not handled well.

It doesn't matter whether someone is getting a better deal than you, what matters is whether or not you think they're getting a better deal.
Managing such a system is clearly the issue. I would hate to be the OC 'Whatever' trying to control it, whether on an operational unit or in an office environment.

[Pontius Navigator]

Biggus, we had a flt cdr, a spec aircrew Sqn ldr who used to take frequent half days leave. There were reasons why this might have been necessary but we strongly suspected skiving and that he never reduced his annual leave total.

Perception definitely and we treated him accordingly.

[MOSTAFA]

Everything looks really simple when you see it in a certain Swedish furniture warehouse - but; when you get it home and open the box!!!!!

Sadly, in what we have left of our Armed Services, well certainly in the Army, it won't make it past breakfast. Thats not because of attitudes its because of the very reason we have one.

[downsizer]

Ironic that the people who will be least effected, those who are out, are the ones who are getting most tied up about this. I strongly suspect that a very small proportion of people will be interested due to the loss of income, and it will only work in certain posts or points in the readiness cycles. Plus the CoC can deny at any time.

[Treble one]

Office hours only? Like the Swiss? :}:}:}

[Pontius Navigator]

Treble One, now the truth can be told, after the Nott cuts, the UK AEW Force at Lossie only provided an AEW on QRA for 4 days a week - start work Monday to cease work Friday. If launched then there was no replacement until the following day.

[Treble one]

So I wasn't safe asleep in my bed with the RAF watching for the potentially low level onrushing Russian hordes PN?

[Pontius Navigator]

Tuesday to Thursday you were OK. I excepted Monday as it was not unknown for us to be scrambled (in a Shack!) 24 hours late.

[Red Line Entry]

But at least you stayed airborne for a week - if only to transit to the target!

[Pontius Navigator]

RLE, we had several abort options - running out of water, fuel (rations that is) and most critically an overflowing Elsan. On one occasion we had to make an emergency stop at Leuchars as we had run out of cups.

[Shackman]

Just be thankful Boscombe dropped their (full) 400gal bomb bay fuel tank on the pan when they doing the AEW release to service trials (they were supposed to see how cleanly it would depart if jettisoned), so they never did it, and therefore remained off the RTS.
Interestingly, apparently it wasn't done for the MR either, but I did plenty of 14-18 hour sorties with one fitted. Different days, different rules!

[Avtur]

When I first read this post, the first words I uttered to myself was FFS, what are they doing now. But having read on, and considered my own fortunate position of working from home, armed with 21 century communication tools, I think this idea has merits. If the ultimate goal is to recruit and retain, then I believe that looking at all alternative working methods/ TOS should be analysed. Actually, its very refreshing to see MoD thinking outside the normal box.

[MPN11]

Further to my #56, I also know a handful of UK civilian mates who work from home much of the time, and visit 'the office' once a week for a day [or two].

It's not an impossible concept in some areas of activity. After all, isn't this what IT was supposed to enable?

[Pontius Navigator]

MPN, my SinL worked from home when at the Ministry, perhaps one day or so a week, and while he didn't don uniform or slob around in PJs he did closet himself away in his study.

[pontifex]

PN Re your long range Shack missions and the abort options. Having got you lot up to speed on prodding during Corporate, I was then asked to see if it could 24 hrs plus. There were no namby-pamby abort options. The result was horrific; it took months to get the smell out of my flying suit!

[langleybaston]

Yes, working from home can indeed work, as it were.

My last stint was as P Met O Southern UK AND RAFG.

The latter was winding down. Modern comms; once a week to Waddington to read up/ catch up; once a month or so to visit a parish extending from Manston to Lyneham, once a quarter to BFG.

And a bit of gardening. I answered the phone to my boss in the bath once. "Strange acoustics" said he.

[Pontius Navigator]

LB, not work by any stretch of the imagination and a Sunday to boot. A very hot day and relaxing in the pool. Sister in Law rang, would we like to go on cruise in the Caribbean?

The whole thing, from invitation, discussing, and booking, was done while we continued to sup some wine in the pool.

Working from home like that on a very hot summer day would certainly have attractions.

[langleybaston]

Its a hard life but somebody has to do it.

I wonder where I went wrong?

[Hangarshuffle]

See the thing is, as ever it was us and them. Its not easy, if you are usually front line, low rank and expendable. And also under educated, wrong class, colour or background. But always British. And of course all if that is always...comparable . I've lost the word now
But its always for our masters, never really ourselves.

Civvy street is easy man.