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Capn Bloggs
4th Feb 2017, 07:08
trying to keep up with everything...

$200m plan for backup WA airport

By Geoff Thomas, The West Australian, 4Feb17

A $200 million airport that could eventually become WA’s second international airport is being planned for Cunderdin in WA’s Wheatbelt.

The internationally rated airport will initially be a diversion airport for Perth.

It will cut airline fuel costs while attracting new airlines to the State because of the operational safety benefits it will offer.

WA-based Ascent Aviation’s plans to redevelop Cunderdin Airport with a 2600m runway with full international landing aids to meet diversion standards are well advanced.

The facility, expected to initially cost between $40 million and $60 million, will have the capacity for up to four A380-sized planes.

The cost benefits to airlines are significant because most international flights carry extra fuel in case they need to divert to Adelaide or Exmouth and beyond.

But some of those sites are up to three hours from Perth, whereas Cunderdin is a little more than 15 minutes away and it is not affected by the same weather that affects the coast.

One international airline told The Weekend West it would look at services to Perth once the airport was operational. Ascent Aviation’s founder and managing director Benjamin Reid said the first phase of the redevelopment was as an emergency alternative to Perth Airport, as outlined in the State Government’s State aviation review.

The second phase would be the development of a pilot training college, and the third phase the handling of cargo freighters.

Phases two and three would take the cost to $200 million.

The final phase could be as Perth’s second airport.

Cunderdin is 158km from Perth but is located on the Perth to Kalgoorlie rail link, thus a highspeed connection is possible.

“Airlines have to compensate for Perth’s isolation, and weather, by loading significant reserve fuel allowing the aircraft to carry on to the next suitable airport if they can’t land at Perth,” Mr Reid said.

“From the outset, we achieved superb in-principle support from major international airlines.

“We secured our foundation international airline customer and are in advanced discussions with the remainder of the key airlines.”

Mr Reid said the Shire of Cunderdin and the Wheatbelt Development Commission had been very supportive as had the WA Department of State Development.




Cunderdin ticks the boxes as alternative airport
Comment by Geoffrey Thomas

Of all the proposals for new airports in WA, the redevelopment of Cunderdin airport ticks all the boxes.

If WA is to reach its full potential it must have a vibrant aviation sector with the necessary supporting infrastructure and Cunderdin is the missing piece.

Perth is the world’s second most isolated capital after Honolulu and arguably the most isolated, when a suitable alternative airport is taken into consideration. This poses major operational problems for airlines which are costly and disruptive and that makes Perth a less attractive destination.

One Emirates diversion from Perth to Adelaide cost $500,000.

Perth presents particular fuel planning challenges and the airport’s location at the foot of the Darling Range can lead to weather problems such as severe turbulence off the hills and dense fog.

In 2012, air traffic controllers were forced to suggest Virgin Blue pilots use Rottnest as an alternative because of severe turbulence at Perth.

Airlines have to compensate for Perth’s isolation, and the weather, by loading enough reserve fuel so the plane can carry on to the next suitable airport if it can’t land at Perth.

Kalgoorlie is not suitable for the bigger sized planes that make up the bulk of international flights so the typical options are Learmonth or Adelaide and in some cases, Melbourne or Sydney.

Its proximity to Perth is just one advantage of Cunderdin.

When international flights divert to Adelaide, the crews are over their flight-hour limits, causing huge delays and inconvenience.

The president and chief executive of Cunderdin Shire believe there would be major benefits from this project, such as more jobs with follow-on benefits to schools, colleges and businesses.

They believe the redevelopment would boost the region — in the initial stages there is the flying school, maintenance and freight opportunities — as a potential second airport for Perth in the longer term.

With an international key airline aboard, the developers Ascent Aviation are now moving to the final phase of the project, converting that in-principle support into customer contracts.

Cunderdin as a diversion airport is a win-win for airlines, as they can load more passengers or freight in place of the fuel saved, not to mention the environmental benefits of the reduced carbon emissions.

TBM-Legend
4th Feb 2017, 07:22
Excellent idea.
Oz is bereft of airports capable of handling big stuff unlike Europe/USA etc.

onetrack
4th Feb 2017, 08:34
Keep on dreaming. The "plan" is just like Ascent Aviations website, half-baked and only one-twentieth the way to completion. Who is going to go 150kms East of Perth to deliver freight, and how many people do they think will "catch a train to Perth". The current average pax load for the Prospector train is 32 pax, each trip!
How will this struggling rail network cope with hundreds of pax just off a couple of flights??
The 2-car Prospector train set can only carry 100 pax maximum, luggage is limited to 1 x 20kgs and 1 x 7kgs hand luggage, no bikes, and strict restrictions on any other freight or luggage.
There's not enough Prospector car sets available at present, to meet any major increase in demand without a huge investment in more and larger car sets.
Even the traincar storage at East Perth is incredibly restricted at present, with little room for expansion.

A "high speed" rail link would have to involve a totally new rail line, the current rail line was installed at huge cost in the late 1960's, and involved substantial numbers of deep cuttings through solid granite - and with many curves, a lot of which are incapable of high speed.
There are quite a number of speed-restricted curves on the line from Perth to Northam. It's not until the line straightens out and flattens out beyond Meckering and Cunderdin that speeds of 160kmh can be attained.

Transwa WDA/WDB/WDC class railcars (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transwa_WDA/WDB/WDC_class)

If YPPH is fogged in, YCUN normally will be, too. In fact, I'll wager a tenner that YCUN gets more fog more often than YPPH.
I'm speaking from extensive experience of having lived and worked in Perth and the Wheatbelt for many decades, and having to put up with many pea-soup fogs on many mornings.
You can get some pretty turbulent weather in the W.A wheatbelt, too - and if it's turbulent in Perth, it will very likely be just as turbulent at YCUN.

The bottom line is, how many major diversions from YPPH have taken place over the last, say 2 decades - and how are the savings going to appear in the above plan.
This plan is classic "float a balloon and see now many go 'ooh-ahhh!'" stuff, just to see if the company can suck in a pile of loose investor monies, so directors can keep themselves in new Beemers and Mercs and plush offices in West Perth, with all the "ancillary benefits" of long boozy lunches in prime restaurants, along with substantial other "company perks".
Believe me, I've been around the mining and corporate scene in WA long enough to spot any amount of dodgy "blue sky" proposals that never flew (excuse the pun!).

Icarus2001
4th Feb 2017, 08:46
Of all the proposals for new airports in WA, the redevelopment of Cunderdin airport ticks all the boxes.

Really? What about airspace?

maggot
4th Feb 2017, 08:54
Really? What about airspace?

Well it couldnt get any worse so surely a small change or two could fix that

But nothing wrong with a ctaf r for an alternate, easy to carry and hope u can get in on the low vis gear thats coming and hopefully seldom go to cundernin.

Icarus2001
4th Feb 2017, 08:55
But nothing wrong with a ctaf r for an alternate, Really? Okay if you say so.

Capn Bloggs
4th Feb 2017, 09:06
C'mon Maggot, CTAF "R"s are so... old!! Dick got rid of those when about 3/4 the way round on the/his 30 year roundabout.

I think this is a plot by the resident gliding club to get an upgraded clubhouse!

B772
4th Feb 2017, 10:01
What is YCUN used for at present ?

maggot
4th Feb 2017, 11:18
Really? Okay if you say so.

Well.if the joint isnt going to really be used much otherwise whats the point in having a tower?

Ive been carrying kgi and lea on and off for 20 years now and neither have a tower. (Unless kal has been upgraded lately? Dont get that way much now)
With low vis capacity in per coming, with a judicious fuel order, cun should rarely be used.

maggot
4th Feb 2017, 11:21
C'mon Maggot, CTAF "R"s are so... old!! Dick got rid of those when about 3/4 the way round on the/his 30 year roundabout.

I think this is a plot by the resident gliding club to get an upgraded clubhouse!

Dammit whats todays preferred acronym? I recall flying into a MBZ years ago with the skipper on the blower calling it an MTAF :)

How is the gliding?

onetrack
4th Feb 2017, 12:10
What is YCUN used for at present ?YCUN was built in haste during World War II as an elementary training school for ab initio pilots for the Empire Air Training Scheme (EATS).
At full strength in 1941, YCUN was home to 34 officers, 500 airmen and 51 aircraft.
Later in WW2 it was used as heavy bomber base for forays into the NEI, mostly with Liberators. All military activities at YCUN ceased in 1947.

After 1947 it was utilised as a temporary camp for migrants (displaced persons) from Europe (around 1000 migrants). This went on until 1957 when WW2 refugee intake slowed to a trickle, and the camp was no longer required.
The Commonwealth Govt of Australia then started to dismantle and sell off the many useable buildings around the aerodrome.

In 1959 the Gliding Club of W.A. moved into the aerodrome and made it the Club HQ, and gliding is still undertaken there on a regular basis.

In 1992 the Commonwealth Govt transferred ownership of YCUN to the local Shire of Cunderdin. The township of Cunderdin is only 3kms away from the aerodrome.
Cunderdin Shire has had a steadily declining population since 1933, when the population peaked around 2700 people.
The Shire population currently stands at about 1000 people in the Cunderdin townsite and the balance of about 400 scattered around farms and surrounding smaller towns such as Meckering.
Cunderdin has a thriving business population, and a modest number of light manufacturing industry businesses, mostly centred around rural clients and products.

Cunderdin Shire Council - Cunderdin Airfield (http://www.cunderdin.wa.gov.au/cunderdin-airfield.aspx)

Gliding Club of W.A. - Cunderdin (http://www.glidingwa.com.au/Cunderdin.htm)

Dora-9
4th Feb 2017, 17:54
Onetrack - Cunderdin was an all-over field until 1944, when the present runways/taxiways were built to accommodate 25 Squadron's B-24's.

Eyes only
4th Feb 2017, 19:22
Nothing to do with Oz mates wanting to fly PER-LHR-PER with the sardine can nightmareliner ? ...come to think of it probably not as they dont file alternates like the rest of the industry.

CurtainTwitcher
4th Feb 2017, 20:47
Nothing to do with Oz mates wanting to fly PER-LHR-PER
Who is the unofficial "propagandist in chief" for Oz mates? Who might need an alternate only 67nm away?

Cui bono...

_gazelle_
5th Feb 2017, 00:34
Quote from the article - "In 2012, air traffic controllers were forced to suggest Virgin Blue pilots use Rottnest as an alternative because of severe turbulence at Perth."
Any details on this one???

CurtainTwitcher
5th Feb 2017, 00:49
Any details on this one???
Airliner's mid-air drama revealed (https://thewest.com.au/news/australia/airliners-mid-air-drama-revealed-ng-ya-334531) GEOFFREY THOMAS AVIATION EDITOR

neville_nobody
5th Feb 2017, 02:06
Mr Reid said the Shire of Cunderdin and the Wheatbelt Development Commission had been very supportive as had the WA Department of State Development.

Until they have to put their hand in their pocket to fund it that is.......:hmm:

In reality the money would be better spent on building a viable alternate in the Margaret River Region which would probably get more use as an airport rather than spending it on a place noone has ever heard of that's never going to see a jet otherwise.

Icarus2001
5th Feb 2017, 02:38
https://thewest.com.au/news/busselton-dunsborough-times/airport-upgrade-to-fuel-regions-growth-ng-b88325008z

If only we had a group of people running the place, you know, like a government or something. Instead of a group of sycophants who do what their friends in business want so that when they leave office they get a cushy job.

What about a cohesive PLAN that last more than one year. State government bullied by Q and PAPL into spending tax dollars to support their business plan.

WA Government appeals to private sector in search for new Perth airport sites - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-11-11/wa-government-looking-for-sites-for-new-airports-perth/5883904)

Government plans second airport for Perth (http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/government-plans-second-airport-for-perth-20150221-13l0aq.html)

Third runway, more terminals, on-site hotel and driverless train planned for Perth Airport | Perth Now (http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/western-australia/third-runway-more-terminals-onsite-hotel-and-driverless-train-planned-for-perth-airport/news-story/ff966bf48c414f76c6ac7d2b9842f238)

Captain Nomad
5th Feb 2017, 03:02
In reality the money would be better spent on building a viable alternate in the Margaret River Region which would probably get more use as an airport rather than spending it on a place noone has ever heard of that's never going to see a jet otherwise.

Margaret River didn't even want to pay the money to keep their RNAV approach (they no longer have a published approach of any sort). I doubt there is much appetite for spending even more money on expanding the airport...

Supermouse3
5th Feb 2017, 21:10
is CAT3C equipment worth what was it $200M?

Pontius
6th Feb 2017, 00:23
In reality the money would be better spent on building a viable alternate in the Margaret River Region which would probably get more use as an airport rather than spending it on a place noone has ever heard of that's never going to see a jet otherwise.

I thought the last plan du jour had Busselton slated for development and use as an international airport.

sierra5913
6th Feb 2017, 01:05
Keep on dreaming. The "plan" is just like Ascent Aviations website, half-baked and only one-twentieth the way to completion. Who is going to go 150kms East of Perth to deliver freight, and how many people do they think will "catch a train to Perth". The current average pax load for the Prospector train is 32 pax, each trip!
How will this struggling rail network cope with hundreds of pax just off a couple of flights??
The 2-car Prospector train set can only carry 100 pax maximum, luggage is limited to 1 x 20kgs and 1 x 7kgs hand luggage, no bikes, and strict restrictions on any other freight or luggage.
There's not enough Prospector car sets available at present, to meet any major increase in demand without a huge investment in more and larger car sets.
Even the traincar storage at East Perth is incredibly restricted at present, with little room for expansion.

A "high speed" rail link would have to involve a totally new rail line, the current rail line was installed at huge cost in the late 1960's, and involved substantial numbers of deep cuttings through solid granite - and with many curves, a lot of which are incapable of high speed.
There are quite a number of speed-restricted curves on the line from Perth to Northam. It's not until the line straightens out and flattens out beyond Meckering and Cunderdin that speeds of 160kmh can be attained.

Transwa WDA/WDB/WDC class railcars (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transwa_WDA/WDB/WDC_class)

If YPPH is fogged in, YCUN normally will be, too. In fact, I'll wager a tenner that YCUN gets more fog more often than YPPH.
I'm speaking from extensive experience of having lived and worked in Perth and the Wheatbelt for many decades, and having to put up with many pea-soup fogs on many mornings.
You can get some pretty turbulent weather in the W.A wheatbelt, too - and if it's turbulent in Perth, it will very likely be just as turbulent at YCUN.

The bottom line is, how many major diversions from YPPH have taken place over the last, say 2 decades - and how are the savings going to appear in the above plan.
This plan is classic "float a balloon and see now many go 'ooh-ahhh!'" stuff, just to see if the company can suck in a pile of loose investor monies, so directors can keep themselves in new Beemers and Mercs and plush offices in West Perth, with all the "ancillary benefits" of long boozy lunches in prime restaurants, along with substantial other "company perks".
Believe me, I've been around the mining and corporate scene in WA long enough to spot any amount of dodgy "blue sky" proposals that never flew (excuse the pun!).
I agree with you but the point of all of this is to negate the need for aircraft coming from the indian ocean and accoss the nullabor to tanker fuel due to legalities. That will save the airlines big money and make Perth more viable.

If it is fully taxpayer funded, you're basically trading taxpayer dollars for increased airline profits. Developing the point, the use of the alternate is irrelevent if the point of it is to enhance airlines' bottom line. They're not paying for it. We are. They're reaping the benefit.

morno
6th Feb 2017, 01:13
So spending a heap of money on Cunderdin to make it an alternate for large jets. Exactly how are they going to make money on it again?

Capn Bloggs
6th Feb 2017, 01:17
negate the need for aircraft coming from the indian ocean and accoss the nullabor to tanker fuel due to legalities. That will save the airlines big money and make Perth more viable.

Perhaps the internationals, but interstate flights can use all the other ports: Gerro, Kal, Meeka, Learmonth. A330 could carry Auckland?

The question is, with Cat III shortly to be available at Perth, how many actual diversions will occur, and will the tankering of an occasional extra 2 hours-odd of fuel for Learmonth/3 hours for ADL offset the huge cost of what would be effectively an international airport that will never be used?

maggot
6th Feb 2017, 02:04
The question is, with Cat III shortly to be available at Perth, how many actual diversions will occur, and will the tankering of an occasional extra 2 hours-odd of fuel for Learmonth/3 hours for ADL offset the huge cost of what would be effectively an international airport that will never be used?

Bingo

Also for when another alt just isn't carried and a last minute need arises. But that never happens in Perth tho eh :D

CurtainTwitcher
6th Feb 2017, 02:17
LHR-PER is likely to be payload limited every sector holding YPLM or YPAD as an alternate, and probably not economically viable. Another consideration is the frequency of a TEMPO, once again reducing yield.

The real killer is departing on the basis of clear forecast, given the sheer sector length, statistically you are simply more exposed to a adverse change in the forecast.

Given the flight plan is likely overhead Columbo and then heading south to pick up the jet, there won't be many alternates available, and the decision point is going to be quite a few hours before PER leaving a large window of exposure to a change in the PER forecast without a close alternate. The DP may even be before the ability to get a TTF to cover the arrival time.

Here is good Great Circle map of the LHR-PER route (http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=LHR-PER&R=1400nm%40YPLM%0D%0A1400nm%40WIII&MS=wls&DU=nm) with 1400nm range rings from Jakarta (WIII) and Learmonth. As I said, it is likely the actual flight plan will probably be well south of the great circle track after Columbo, and then almost due east.

A guess the bottom line given the geometry is that this probably about minimising the number of early diversions when the TTF ends up being clear, thus maximising payload. Just a working hypothesis based on a bit of guesswork.

http://i.imgur.com/obkoZwZ.gif

BuzzBox
6th Feb 2017, 03:16
Perhaps the internationals, but interstate flights can use all the other ports: Gerro, Kal, Meeka, Learmonth. A330 could carry Auckland?

Auckland, I think not! Did you mean Adelaide?

If so, then yes, the A330 can carry ADL as an alternate for PER. We regularly do it from HKG in the winter months, but if the weather's above the alternate minima then we carry 'Island Reserve' (ie 120 minutes' holding) in lieu of an alternate. A big problem with using ADL as an alternate for PER is the lack of enroute alternates between the two. It's not so bad if Kalgoorlie and Woomera are available, but if either one isn't suitable due to weather then we have to carry much more fuel for the diversion to cater for a depressurisation/engine failure. In that event, it's not unusual to land in PER with over 20 tonnes of fuel in the tanks!

Clare Prop
6th Feb 2017, 03:22
Did "expert" GT mention the allocated 10 million from the Commonwealth and 46 million from the state Royalties for Regions for Busselton airport last year ...yes, the airport that many of us taxpayers aren't allowed to access because we are "training"...perhaps in case we have a collision with a tumbleweed.

At least at the old Busselton airport the cows were friendly.

Capn Bloggs
6th Feb 2017, 03:31
Plan to arrive at Lunchtime. Very, very rare to have an Alternate requirement sprung on you then. Besides, a 787 isn't that big. KGI or GET could be set up as an alternate/emergency for much less dosh than building Cunderdin, surely?

Auckland, I think not! Did you mean Adelaide?
Just making the point that, from my understanding, the A330 has "tons" of alternate options before payload is restricted, unlike the longer international flights coming in.

Also for when another alt just isn't carried and a last minute need arises.
If the "last minute need" is fog-related, just go ahead and Cat 3... been done before at Perth and other places. ;)

If it's TS-related, go to Pearce.

If it's because Perth is not available eg prang, go to Pearce.

"But Sir, the forecast changed and I had no other options.".

BuzzBox
6th Feb 2017, 03:50
Originally Posted by Curtain Twitcher
LHR-PER is likely to be payload limited every sector holding YPLM or YPAD as an alternate...

But an alternate won't be required on every sector. Not sure of the timings for the LHR-PER service, but as Capn Bloggs said, it's very rare to have an alternate requirement on PER in the middle of the day. Most of the time it's only required for overnight/early morning arrivals during winter, when fog is often forecast.

CurtainTwitcher
6th Feb 2017, 03:54
Plan to arrive at Lunchtime. Very, very rare to have an Alternate requirement sprung on you then.
Think about the other way, say there already IS a requirement on the TAF for your arrival, the TTF can change for the better too. You can depart hoping you get that improvement. But if you decision point is outside the three hour validity its no good to you. If your very close (67nm) alternate is miraculously improves however...

I have no idea if this is going to be the case, but based on the geometry it would be similar to the SIN - PER scenario where YPLM was our only option and we would sweat on getting a clear TTF just prior to the DP.

Capn Bloggs
6th Feb 2017, 04:01
The West, 6Feb17
Parties back new airport plan
By Geoffrey Thomas

The proposed $200 million upgrade of Cunderdin airport to handle emergency diversions from Perth has received unusual bipartisan support from the major political parties.

Minister for State Development , Transport and Innovation Bill Marmion said yesterday that the Government “supports the proposal’’ for an alternative airport in Cunderdin.

“Over the last eight years, Perth has grown into a mature city, so it’s absurd that a widebody plane still needs to be diverted all the way to Adelaide when there is serious inclement weather,” he said. “A local alternative landing site will bring benefits to travellers, aviation companies and importantly the Cunderdin community.”

The Weekend West revealed on Saturday that WA-based company Ascent Aviation was well advanced with its plans to redevelop Cunderdin airport, which include a 2600m runway to enable airlines to cut fuel costs and offer significant operational safety benefits.

Most international flights need to carry fuel to divert to Adelaide or Exmouth, but those airports are up to three hours from Perth. Cunderdin is a little more than 15 minutes away from the city and is not affected by weather at Perth Airport. These advantages will also attract new airlines to serve Perth.

Labor leader Mark McGowan said the concept was a positive step. “A back-up airport or second international airport would be a major boost for tourism and if elected, it is something my government would work on,” he said.

Nationals leader Brendon Grylls said it was exciting to think what such a proposal could mean for the Wheatbelt.

“Diversifying the economies of our regions ensures our country towns can continue to grow and prosper making them more attractive locations for people to live and work,” he said.

Mr Grylls added that “as a condition of government, I expect development of any new facility will mean short-term jobs for local contractors and businesses” .

Mr Marmion said that “to realise the economic opportunities of the proposal, the Department of State Development has been appointed lead agency to work with the proponent to facilitate approvals and improve interaction with government” .

The Cunderdin redevelopment as an alternative to Perth Airport has widespread support in the aviation community, which believes its proximity to Perth and different weather conditions offer benefits for airlines.

Wheatbelt Development Commission chief executive Wendy Newman said the project would benefit the aviation industry in the area. “Cunderdin as a diversion airport is a win-win for airlines and ticks all the boxes as airlines can load more passengers or freight in place of the fuel saved,” she said.

Team America
6th Feb 2017, 04:19
How about the airforce move to Learmonth, massive under utilised infrastructure sitting up there just because the airforce people want to live in Perth. It would be great for Exmouth and then free up Pearce to be used as a 2nd airport for Perth.

Yes, Cat 3C is going to have to go in to YPPH or YPEA as fog is likely at both at the same time.

Supermouse3
6th Feb 2017, 04:35
why would we need a 2nd airport for perth? it's not exactly busy... anymore...

Clare Prop
6th Feb 2017, 05:54
Dedicated to GT.

The Lazy Journalists Plane Story Generator (http://www.radans.net/jens/planestory.html)

key words from the virgin story:

The pilots of a Virgin passenger airliner dangerously low on fuel considered landing at Rottnest Island or Jandakot after freak high winds forced them to abort a landing at Perth Airport. :ugh::ugh:

how can anyone take this guy seriously, especially after what he said about the Mallard tragedy?

ExtraShot
6th Feb 2017, 06:11
It all seems a bit 'Pie in the sky' at the moment, and we're probably 30 years too early for any kind of Second International Airport talk for Perth.

However, if a General Aviation 'Airpark' type facility can be built, with infrastructure that helps to support and grow the long suffering General Aviation industry (from flight training to maintenance, etc), then who are we to complain?

The residents of Cunderdin and surrounds should benefit economically, and the icing on the cake would hopefully see a Widebody-capable Runway and Parking Area (and some navaids perhaps). Add that to the (near-ish) future potential for at least some freighter services, and you may see a very similar story to the relative success story of Wellcamp in QLD.

If Taxpayer funds are to be used, then personally I'd like to see Busselton, Geraldton and Kalgoorlie Airports enhanced to take multiple large jets and a greater share of General Aviation and associated support infrastructure first. If this Idea gets up though, and it helps grow the industry in any way shape or form, bring it on.

BuzzBox
6th Feb 2017, 06:20
Originally Posted by Team America
How about the airforce move to Learmonth, massive under utilised infrastructure sitting up there just because the airforce people want to live in Perth.

There's a bunch of reasons why that won't happen and they've got nothing to do with people wanting to live in Perth.

Originally Posted by Team America
Yes, Cat 3C is going to have to go in to YPPH or YPEA as fog is likely at both at the same time.

Well that would be a world first. Try Cat 3B, which is being commissioned at PER as we speak.

YPJT
6th Feb 2017, 06:27
Ultimate Airport Busselton will be able to handle it.
Last I heard they want a code 4E capable runway. :)

Capn Bloggs
25th Feb 2017, 00:29
Gerro, Kal, Cunnas Dogfight!
Battle on over airport alternative
by Geoff Thomas and Josh Chiat

A battle is looming between Kalgoorlie , Geraldton and Cunderdin over the rights to be the preferred alternative airport for Perth.

Last month Ascent Aviation said it was well advanced with plans to redevelop Cunderdin as an alternative to Perth and had signed up a major international airline.

All major political parties back the plan, with aviation experts saying Cunderdin ticked all the boxes because of its proximity to Perth, while being far enough away not to be affected by inclement weather at the same time as Perth.

Nationals candidate for Kalgoorlie Tony Crook said Kalgoorlie would have been a better option.

“You never know when these airports are going to be needed,” he said.

“That’s why a place like Kalgoorlie would be a better alternative because it has existing services in place. You’ve got security in place, you’ve got a significant terminal and you’ve got accommodation in town.

“Sure, the airstrip would need upgrading, the tarmac loading would probably need to be increased and the length would need to be increased but I would have thought that would be the cheaper option than the 200-odd million dollars for Cunderdin.”

However, the initial Cunderdin alternative plan will cost only between $40 and $60 million with the higher figure related to developing the airfield as a freight terminal.

In 2014 airlines carried out a study of Kalgoorlie as an alternative but found there were major issues such as the runway being too short because houses and the Super Pit were nearby.

But an airline executive, who is close to committing to Cunderdin, told The Weekend West that there were no rights to be the alternative to Perth.

“It’s all about making the business case. Up till now Kalgoorlie, not Geraldton, has put a viable proposal and we have been diverting to Adelaide for years,” he said.

“For us, Cunderdin makes far more sense because it’s so close to Perth and gives us the opportunity of returning to Perth before our crew are over their duty time hours and that is critical.”

Mr Crook argued using Kalgoorlie would save fuel, as flights from the Eastern States usually flew “within striking distance” of Kalgoorlie-Boulder . “If they had to deviate to an alternative airport like Kalgoorlie, they’d be doing it on the way,” he said.

CurtainTwitcher
25th Feb 2017, 02:58
Most informative post Bloggs

Given the

YPPH YCUn67 nm
YPPH YBLN 109 nm
YPPH YGEL 199 nm
YPPH YPKG291 nm

http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=YPPH-YCUN%0d%0aYPPH-YBLN%0d%0aYPPH-YGEL%0d%0aYPPH-YPKG&R=69nm%40YCUN%0d%0a109NM%40YBLN%0d%0a199NM%40YGEL%0d%0a291NM %40YPKG%0d%0a&MS=wls&MR=120&MX=720x360&PM=%2a


Great Circle Mapper (http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=YPPH-YCUN%0D%0AYPPH-YBLN%0D%0AYPPH-YGEL%0D%0AYPPH-YPKG&R=69nm%40YCUN%0D%0A109NM%40YBLN%0D%0A199NM%40YGEL%0D%0A291NM %40YPKG%0D%0A&PM_q=*&PM=*&MS=wls&MP=&MC=&PC=&PW=&PT=&RC=&RW=&RS=&DU=nm&DM=&SG=&SU=mph&EV=&EU=kts)

CurtainTwitcher
25th Feb 2017, 03:02
Most informative post Bloggs.

Given the witting or unwitting leak of information in the article (crew duty hours), the commercial limitations of the LHR-PER and the requirements for a very close alternative become clear.

YPPH YCUN 67 nm
YPPH YBLN 109 nm
YPPH YGEL 199 nm
YPPH YPKG 291 nm

Distance range rings from the various aerodromes intersecting at PER.

http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=YPPH-YCUN%0d%0aYPPH-YBLN%0d%0aYPPH-YGEL%0d%0aYPPH-YPKG&R=69nm%40YCUN%0d%0a109NM%40YBLN%0d%0a199NM%40YGEL%0d%0a291NM %40YPKG%0d%0a&MS=wls&MR=120&MX=720x360&PM=%2a


Source: Great Circle Mapper (http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=YPPH-YCUN%0D%0AYPPH-YBLN%0D%0AYPPH-YGEL%0D%0AYPPH-YPKG&R=69nm%40YCUN%0D%0A109NM%40YBLN%0D%0A199NM%40YGEL%0D%0A291NM %40YPKG%0D%0A&PM_q=*&PM=*&MS=wls&MP=&MC=&PC=&PW=&PT=&RC=&RW=&RS=&DU=nm&DM=&SG=&SU=mph&EV=&EU=kts)

Derfred
25th Feb 2017, 04:14
GT's journalism up to it's usual standard...

“It’s all about making the business case. Up till now Kalgoorlie, not Geraldton, has put a viable proposal and we have been diverting to Adelaide for years,” he said.

What does this sentence even mean? Is it English? :confused:

“For us, Cunderdin makes far more sense because it’s so close to Perth and gives us the opportunity of returning to Perth before our crew are over their duty time hours and that is critical.”

Because whatever weather that caused the diversion in the first place will clear instantly the wheels touch down in Cunderdin for a quick return to Perth inside duty limits... :ugh:

Mr Crook argued using Kalgoorlie would save fuel, as flights from the Eastern States usually flew “within striking distance” of Kalgoorlie-Boulder . “If they had to deviate to an alternative airport like Kalgoorlie, they’d be doing it on the way,” he said.

I guess I can't blame GT for this one, but Kalgoorlie saves fuel how, again? :bored:

Capn Bloggs
25th Feb 2017, 04:28
but Kalgoorlie saves fuel how
I suspect he's saying if the Perth forecast was changed when you're already on the way, flights from the east could drop into Kal for a top up. But that would only be when the BOM gets it wrong...

The Green Goblin
25th Feb 2017, 04:47
It's not about flights coming from the east coast. They're never really limited in terms of range. There are plenty of options available on the way if it gets bad.

This is about ultra long haul flights coming in from the north west. Particularly LHR-PER.

Cunderdin makes sense for this as the extra fuel uplift is negligible, it could be taken care of in the descent with an extra 10 mins or so of cruise.

It'll be interesting though if a wide body got stuck out there. No accomodation, no customs. Everybody remains onboard until a replacement crew can be sourced and paxed out. *shudder*

I think it will be a planning exercise only. Just like Forrest. With the cat3b in PER, if there is a real diversion it'll go somewhere more suitable for a recovery.

CurtainTwitcher
25th Feb 2017, 05:15
I think it will be a planning exercise only. Just like Forrest
If a jet engine makes it top of climb still running, the chances of it continuing to run to destination are roughly 99.999%. Further, the likelihood of failing enroute and requiring a diversion to Forest make it an incredibly rare event. Hence a decision by operators to go non-ETOPS and save some money by using it.

The rate of real world weather & operational events delays (like a single runway due routine maintenance ie RWY21 recently) is much higher. The expectation is that crews will extend for exactly the reasons you state: No accomodation, no customs. A lot of pressure to keep going...

Capn Bloggs
25th Feb 2017, 05:49
It's not about flights coming from the east coast.
I was merely explaining Mr Crook's comments for Derfred. After you're 100nm west of ADL, there are no options for a fuel topup apart from Kal if the Perth TAF changes to bad, unless you like going back...

Creampuff
25th Feb 2017, 09:42
What fits into YFRT?

Derfred
25th Feb 2017, 23:36
Ahh Bloggs, yes I understand that, but the argument was being made in the context of why Kalgoorlie would be a better alternate than Cunderdin. Fuel savings for an East-West top up was given as an argument.

It would not make any difference fuel-wise if the aircraft dropped into Kalgoorlie or Cunderdin for fuel. They are both en-route.

B772
26th Feb 2017, 00:45
Creampuff:

In years gone by the largest RPT a/c that used YFRT was the TAA DC9-31.

Before the AN A320's were ETOPS approved YFRT was available as required.

Both the B737-800 and A320-200 would get into YFRT and out with restricted payloads.

Capn Bloggs
26th Feb 2017, 03:22
Defred, true, but there is increased chance that Cunderdin would be affected by the same weather that put the requirements on Perth.

Angle of Attack
3rd Mar 2017, 07:08
It's true that Cunderdin may be affected similar to Perth but it's one more available airport, and once Perth gets the CAT3 it would help as pretty much you can get in on the approach with a lot less extra fuel for legal alternates, assuming YCUN TTF was ok.

Going Boeing
3rd Mar 2017, 23:54
Defred, true, but there is increased chance that Cunderdin would be affected by the same weather that put the requirements on Perth.

Bloggsy, you've got a lot more experience operating in WA than me, but I would have thought that, with YCUN being east of the range, it wouldn't be subject to the same fog conditions as well as not having the crosswind/mechanical turbulence issues that YPPH has when the strong Easterlies are blowing.

Dick Smith
5th Mar 2017, 22:43
Yep. I did get rid of CTAF r's.

Gradual move towards an international system. Won't be long now.

Capn Bloggs
6th Mar 2017, 05:54
GB, I will admit that I haven't done an analysis on the coincident fog forecasts at Perth and Cunderdin; I assume the protagonists for YCUN Intl have done so!

Yep. I did get rid of CTAF r's
What were they replaced by? :}

CurtainTwitcher
6th Mar 2017, 21:30
There doesn't seem to be much in the way of historic data for fog available on the BOM website, however there are long term stats available, such as the 9am conditions such temp, wet bulb and humidity.
I will note right up front that correlation is not causation, and these are averages only. Without long term observations of the actual conditions such as fog They are only suggestive of similarities between two locations, they don't prove anything. However they still give food for thought about it's suitability given its apparent similarity to PER and it's issues with fog.

You can generate your own graphs of any two stats from the long term data
Perth Airport (http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/averages/tables/cw_009021_All.shtml) Cunderdin Airport (http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/averages/tables/cw_010286_All.shtml)




9am Temp vs wet bulb

http://i.imgur.com/PJPhCVK.png
http://i.imgur.com/GJt6Rgh.png



9am Temp vs Dew Point

http://i.imgur.com/x9hjc5Z.png
http://i.imgur.com/asxzHE2.png



9am Humidity

http://i.imgur.com/Kp29msV.png
http://i.imgur.com/c0ZYA19.png

Capn Bloggs
7th Mar 2017, 02:46
Y'all be pleased to know that this morning, YPPH had a Prob 30 Fog and YCUN was CAVOK. :ok: :}

onetrack
5th Apr 2017, 23:28
I guess the YCUN persuaders will be over the moon this morning. YPPH is deathly quiet this morning, and YCUN is fog-free!

The West Australian - heavy fog descends on Perth, prompting traffic warning (https://thewest.com.au/news/traffic/heavy-fog-descends-on-perth-prompting-traffic-warning-ng-b88437976z)

Bom.gov.au - Meteye - Cunderdin (http://www.bom.gov.au/australia/meteye/?loc=WA_FA001) (type in Cunderdin, zoom out, select fog from LH menu)

Bleve
6th Apr 2017, 07:25
GT's journalism up to it's usual standard...

Ahem, shouldn't that be:

GT's journalism down to it's usual standard...

:}

Derfred
6th Apr 2017, 14:14
Perhaps we can agree on "maintaining it's usual standard"...

onetrack
7th Apr 2017, 00:39
Fair go! This is our resident "Aviation Expert" you're dissing! :) (watch the video for GT's expert opinion)

The West Australian - Drone snapped dangerously close to Singapore Airlines plane (https://thewest.com.au/news/wa/drone-snapped-dangerously-close-to-singapore-airlines-plane-ng-b88439235z)

Supermouse3
7th Apr 2017, 07:28
that was rubbish. sounded like the presenter was trying to say there was a connection between the drone operator in Perth and in Canberra..

tomcat264
8th Jul 2017, 15:02
trying to keep up with everything...
GT is full of shit and is always dreaming up some shit to creat a second airport in Perth. He published some crap on the front page of the Sunday Times about making RAAF Pearce the second airport in Perth like Avalon in Melb but of course that was news to everyone WA including the RAAF. If he thinks Cunderdin will ever be an alternate to Perth at the Govt's expense then he is delusional.

tomcat264
8th Jul 2017, 15:12
What is YCUN used for at present ?
sheering sheep, tractor pulls, country bumkin ute burnout comps etc lol

tomcat264
8th Jul 2017, 15:17
Who is the unofficial "propagandist in chief" for Oz mates? Who might need an alternate only 67nm away?

Cui bono...
Who doesnt have a code F runway, code F taxiway or a code F apron ;)

tomcat264
8th Jul 2017, 15:26
Quote from the article -
Any details on this one???'
I doubt that

tomcat264
8th Jul 2017, 15:32
is CAT3C equipment worth what was it $200M?
No not that much but its a different price for each airport

Capn Bloggs
9th Jul 2017, 01:14
Tomcat 264 must have just retired and is now bored! :)