Amazon is building $1.5B sort and hub facility in CVG

[atpcliff]

About 900 acres.
Facilities for over 100 aircraft.
2700 total employees.

They will be using DHL facilities while building out their own facilities.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/amazon-com-plans-first-air-cargo-hub-1485901557

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2017/01/31/amazon-to-create-1-4b-air-hub-at-cvg.html

[bafanguy]

Can their own AOC be far behind ? I'd be interesting to see how they treat their pilots. ;-)

[atpcliff]

Atlas sold their Florida West -121 certificate to an un-named buyer.

Amazon is hiring for their own airline, according to people familiar with the situation.

[bafanguy]

"Amazon is hiring for their own airline, according to people familiar with the situation. "

atpcliff,

Interesting. Are they using an agency or recruiter...or do they have their own in-house flt ops hiring people ?

Saw this article previously but didn't read far enough down in it to see pilots mentioned. Hard to say what it means exactly but it sure sounds like they're starting an airline:

"The project will bring up to 2,700 jobs and 40 Boeing 767s to CVG, according to officials, with 600 full-time jobs coming initially. The jobs are expected to include sorting personnel, pilots, ground support employees, management and maintenance. The first aircraft will arrive by April. It is the largest jobs expansion at CVG since Delta opened its hub in the 1990s."

Saw in another forum that a dispatcher said Amazon was "recruiting heavily" from his employer for this endeavor. Maybe sump'ns up...


http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2017/01/31/amazon-to-create-1-4b-air-hub-at-cvg.html

[HEMS driver]

They do their own hiring: Flight Test Engineer (https://us-amazon.icims.com/jobs/456181/flight-test-engineer/job?iis=Job+Posting&iisn=Indeed+%28Free+Posting%29)

[onetrack]

The writing is on the wall for Fedex and DHL. Amazon is a 21st century "disruptor" with vast funding on tap, who will set up a freight operation larger than either Fedex or DHL - and then compete with both as a freight agent for other clients, who need freight moved at low cost. By carrying freight for others, Amazon can reduce their own freight costs.
Of course, Amazons track record shows that anyone who is employed by them, is expected to work for minimum rates, to ensure maximised Amazon profits.
Amazons total "Big Brother" control of employees is classic ruthless corporate behaviour, and Amazon job security is non-existent.

http://www.ibtimes.com/amazoncoms-workers-are-low-paid-overworked-unhappy-new-employee-model-internet-age-1514780

[atpcliff]

Of course, Amazons track record shows that anyone who is employed by them, is expected to work for minimum rates, to ensure maximised Amazon profits.
Amazons total "Big Brother" control of employees is classic ruthless corporate behaviour, and Amazon job security is non-existent.


The good part, for any pilots and engineers (mechanics) working for Amazon, is that there is a pilot shortage, and an even worse engineer shortage, and it's only going to get worse, going forward...

Namaste...

[Spooky 2]

Well if it's anything like working at their Seattle headquarters, get ready for some rough times. Middle management and above work very long hours as in 12+, and late into the night only to return again early the next morning. Lots of unhappy workers over there.

[flite idol]

I've said it before...staffing a fulfillment center or finding a schmuc to drive parcels around in his Kia is very different to filling cockpits these days. 10 years ago, no problem, there were schmucks a plenty with no better options that would take the few beans Bezos thinks he can pay. He still has some cards to play so time will tell, he has to bust the unions first and the management of the current players seem very willing to assist with that.

[bafanguy]

"Atlas sold their Florida West -121 certificate to an un-named buyer."

Wouldn't the sale of an AOC be a public record showing the buyer ? That stuff is way over my head. The FW certificate has a rather complicated family tree.

[MarkerInbound]

They do their own hiring: Flight Test Engineer (https://us-amazon.icims.com/jobs/456181/flight-test-engineer/job?iis=Job+Posting&iisn=Indeed+%28Free+Posting%29)
That's for a drone test pilot.

[peekay4]

Wouldn't the sale of an AOC be a public record showing the buyer ?
One can't really buy or sell an AOC. An AOC is tied to an operating business. So what's really being bought / sold is the business itself. The AOC is just one of the assets held by the company.

The list of AOCs is public record. But if the business operating the AOC is privately held, then the true owners may be hard to track.

[bafanguy]

" An AOC is tied to an operating business. So what's really being bought / sold is the business itself."

pk4,

Ah so. Assuming Florida West is somehow involved (just an assumption so far), they have a complicated family tree. I've pestered, uh, I mean contacted my usual suspects to see what they know but none has made any definitive statement about what's up, if anything. I did see a couple of DXers on another forum say they'd been approached in connection to this. Taking the flying in-house would be a rather large undertaking, I'd assume. One of my sources speculated about the idea of Amazon doing ONLY its own flying and making the operation Part 91...just a thought...he didn't claim it'd work legally. IIRC, Eli Lily had a B707 years ago in KIND that they used to fly their product overseas under Part 91.


https://worldairlinenews.com/2015/02/19/florida-west-to-be-acquired-by-worldwide-air-logistics-group-will-become-a-sister-airline-of-southern-air/


http://www.southernair.com/Documents/Southern%20Air%20Holdings%20Inc%20Final-1-19-16.pdf

[Spooky 2]

Today at least, you cannot operate a large aircraft on a Part 91 certificate. Maybe Part 125 as many if not all, the car parts operators do or have done in the past. There have been Part 125 operators with a 91 exemption, but I don't think the FAA is allowing that anymore? Part 121 is the logical way for this to evolve just as UPS did early in their evolution.


Buying an asset that includes a Certificate would seem to be a logical way to go. I believe that Evergreen bought the Johnson Flying Service Part121 certificate back when they first got into the airline business. At the time there had not been a new 121 certificate issued for decades.

[Spooky 2]

double post

[peekay4]

Hearing rumors that Amazon is preparing to acquire "hundreds" of aircraft for logistics ops. :}

[bafanguy]

"Hearing rumors that Amazon is preparing to acquire 'hundreds' of aircraft for logistics ops."

pk4,

As in buying an existing carrier(s) ? And what kind of airplanes ?

[peekay4]

Amazon denies the rumors:

More freighters for Amazon? | Cargo Facts (http://cargofacts.com/more-freighters-for-amazon/)

[bafanguy]

pk4,

Thanks. That's a fun rumor. If Amazon starts sweeping up available 763s, it'll be hard to hide. Stay tuned, I guess.

100 airplanes would take a respectable number of pilots...which they'd have no trouble finding. ;-))

[bafanguy]

Rumor surfaces in another outlet:

"... the second involves talks with unspecified Wall Street investors for the financing of 400 aircraft."

Amazon in new freighter order talks? - ch-aviation.com (http://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/54282-amazon-in-new-freighter-order-talks)

P.S. Not sure what happened with that link. It used to work, now doesn't.

[bafanguy]

Appears Florida West is removed from the Amazon puzzle...if it was ever in there:

Florida West Int'l Airways formally shut down - ch-aviation.com (http://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/54674-florida-west-intl-airways-formally-shut-down)

[tdracer]

Rumor surfaces in another outlet:

"... the second involves talks with unspecified Wall Street investors for the financing of 400 aircraft."

There was an article in a Puget Sound business journal recently speculating that Amazon was in talks with Boeing to place a massive order for new 767 Freighters (behind a pay wall unfortunately).
Before I retired late last year, there was a lot of scuttlebutt that some big 767F orders were in the works...

[bafanguy]

...there was a lot of scuttlebutt that some big 767F orders were in the works...

tdracer,

Certainly plausible. My source tells me the 767 line is still up and running...willing and able to add new 767F orders. Converting existing pax 763 air frames to freighters is pretty expensive and time consuming ? Stay tuned ?

[peekay4]

As a point of comparison, the total number of 767s ever delivered (all models) is 1,097 -- including 1 delivery to FedEx earlier this year.

And the largest ever 767 order was placed by FedEx two years ago, for 50 aircraft.

Not counting conversions, there are only 123 767-300Fs deliveries in total.

An Amazon order for 100 (or 400!) would be monumental for the 767 program.

[tdracer]

My source tells me the 767 line is still up and running...willing and able to add new 767F orders.
IIRC, current 767 production is about 2/month - one each for FedEx and USAF KC-46, baring new orders that's expected to hold for several years. At least in theory, they have the capability to build 767s at 7/month so there is unused capability (although that may have been reduced somewhat when they transitioned the 767 line to ITAR about 5 years ago to support the KC-46 production).


A big problem with converting passenger 767s to freighters is that the passenger airframes are getting well and truly used up before being retired - many 767s being retired have over 100k hours.