Theresa May signs £100m fighter jet deal with Turkey's Erdoğan

[Lyneham Lad]

Article in today's on-line Guardian. (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/28/theresa-may-signs-100m-fighter-jet-deal-with-turkeys-erdogan)
Theresa May and Turkish president Recep Tayyip Erdoğan have signed a £100m commitment to build new fighter jets, in a deal Downing Street hopes will see Britain become Turkey’s leading defence partner.

The defence deal will see BAE Systems collaborate with Turkish companies to build a bespoke Turkish jet, the TF-X. It is worth £100m – small in economic terms – but Britain hopes it will kick off a longstanding relationship, and open the door to becoming Turkey’s main defence provider. “We would expect this to unlock further deals,” the spokeswoman said.

Que???

[Hangarshuffle]

False news? I hope so. Not what we need right now in the world - more lethal weaponry in the hands of another "strongman".
But money talks as always.

[ORAC]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/TAI_TFX

I found it more interesting that the main design team is from SAAB, who designed the Gripen - and the Turks have the option to buy the design unit........

"Saab AB will provide technological design assistance for Turkey's TFX program. TAI has the option to purchase Saab AB's fighter jet design unit.".........

[racedo]

I found it more interesting that the main design team is from SAAB, who designed the Gripen - and the Turks have the option to buy the design unit........

"Saab AB will provide technological design assistance for Turkey's TFX program. TAI has the option to purchase Saab AB's fighter jet design unit.".........

So Sukhoi will soon have all the details for £100 M

[Whenurhappy]

SAAB were contracted some years ago to do a pre-feasibility study. In late 2015 SAAB, Airbus and BAEs were invited to tender for the 4 year preliminary design phase for a 5th generation LO air superiority platform (think F-22). It's likely to be a twin-engined aircraft, possibly with new co-developed engines; R-R UK have proposed a $500m co-development programme. About a year ago BAEs was selected for pre-contract negotiations; a contract was very close to being signed at Farnborough, but the Programme Directory, a Maj Gen Aksoy, was arrested on his return to Turkey, immediately following the coup attempt. Airbus tried to get another deal on the table last year but the Turks were happy to partner with the UK - as this proposal has massive cross-Government support. SAAB have now no involvement in the programme. Oh, and the contract is worth about $160M.

But the bottom line is that the Turkish Government want something that is exportable and have an eye on the global F-16 fleet. Should the PDC go well (and BAEs is heavily resourcing it), it's likely they will be kept on and there will be many other UK companies involved - along with the burgeoning hi-tech Turkish defence industry (much of it quasi-state-owned). I think we will see the RAF working closer with the TurAF on collaboration programmes, as they struggle to rebuild after the coup attempt (perhaps 30% of F-16 pilots were dismissed and/or arrested; including almost all of their FJ QFIs...apparently).

Outside of FCAS, this is the only forward looking programme on the BAEs books with real potential to produce the next generation of aerospace engineers.

[Morrihell]

Well then...

ZZ336 has flown Brize-Heathrow-Philadelphia-Andrews AFB-Ankara-Heathrow-Brize 25/01 > 28/01...

She's been holding hands with some <ahem> well regarded world leaders!

I'm sure today's Daily Express will manage to put some positive spin on it.

[Wensleydale]

So Sukhoi will soon have all the details for £100 M


BAE will put their ex-Nimrod team onto it - will put them back many years!!

[Whenurhappy]

BAE will put their ex-Nimrod team onto it - will put them back many years!!
The emphasis will be on growing Turkish talent.

[Heathrow Harry]

that'll put the Turkish Aerospace Industry back by 20 years then................ good move

Can we call the Brazillians??

[Wander00]

Cannot fathom May cosying with Erdogan - worst human rights record in "almost" Europe, more journalists locked up than anywhere else, and I suspect the "coup" was a put up job so that he could put it down and look "strong". A man to be kept at the far end of a very long barge pole IMHO

[Heathrow Harry]

Desperate need to show that we "can still do deals" after BREXIT

This could make Tony Bliars friends look like decent people............

[noflynomore]

£100M is a rather small amount in the world of military aircraft development and production.
For reference, Typhoon development is stated at between £20 and 37Bn, each airframe at up to £55M and "a modification programme" to enable it to do ground attack (!!) is said to be costing over £600M.

What exactly are BAe going to be doing? It doesn't sound like a large slice of a potentially huge pie.

[thunderbird7]

and I suspect the "coup" was a put up job so that he could put it down and look "strong". A man to be kept at the far end of a very long barge pole IMHO

Exactly what crossed my mind. On the one hand we are criticising the Assad regime in Syria and on the other we are cosying upto a new dictator in the making.

[Whenurhappy]

I refer to my earlier post about the eventual scope of the programme. This is the start and it is a measure of the trust that Turkey normally guards closely, that it is prepared to partner with BAES and HMG.

Moreover, Geography doesn't change. I agree that the trajectory of Turkey doesn't look to good a the moment, but it is the extended Front Line of the UK in terms of defeating Daesh, counter-terrorism, reducing irregular migrant numbers, interdicting organised crime (narcotics, people smuggling etc) and is NATO's southern Flank against Russian expansionism. For these reasons the UK has to have good relations with whoever is in charge...added to the fact that c 2 million UK nationsla visit Turkey every year as tourists.

In October 2015 Turkey asked for assistance from NATO to provide assurance against increasing Russian aggression. The UK responded very rapidly and within a few days there was a survey team from High Wycombe and PJHQ, surveying Incirlik Air Base, with an view of deploying Typhoons as a deterrence measure. The MOD made that offer through NATO...but we were the only country who was prepared to pony up assets, with other countries viewing this as a Turkish problem. If the call had come from Poland, for example, I am sure there would have been a more robust response from the Alliance members.

[Bigbux]

Turkey is an F35 partner and plays a role in the manufacture of F35 airframe components - so I'm presuming security is not considered a huge issue.

The £100m deal is not new - the project was started in 2010. There is also talk of tech transfer of the EJ200 for the project. The plan is for a super-cruising F-22 lookalike - so this might be a very interesting project to get involved in.

Great darts by TM for flagging it up straight after holding hands with POTUS. We've heard nothing but EU propaganda up until now about the UK's likely outcome in the Article 50 negotiations. A few more examples of how the UK is free to trade without garnering 27 signatures over 10 years might inject some realism into the process. Turkey was a particularly smart choice as the EU has been shutting it out.

As far as the moral high ground about who we trade with goes, TM has specifically stated that we will not make the same high-handed mistakes as TB made in trying to enforce our own model on everyone else. And if we are on friendly terms - we have more chance of discussion and persuasion.

[Lonewolf_50]

This is a trainer, right?

[Turbine D]

Conceptual designs look a bit spiffy for a trainer: :)

http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/q609/DaveK72/TF-Xin_uumlccedil_kavramsal_tasarm_zpsoldcktjy.jpeg (http://s1166.photobucket.com/user/DaveK72/media/TF-Xin_uumlccedil_kavramsal_tasarm_zpsoldcktjy.jpeg.html)
I think the Turks want to replace their F-16s with something less expensive than F-35s.

[Martin the Martian]

Hmm, BAE collaborate on a future combat aircraft with another nation. Might put them in a good place when the Typhoon replacement rears its head -assuming of course it won't be unmanned.

[Davef68]

Hmm, BAE collaborate on a future combat aircraft with another nation. Might put them in a good place when the Typhoon replacement rears its head -assuming of course it won't be unmanned.
Could an Air Defence fighter ever be unmanned or remotely operated? Physics would dictate that you would have a (small) lag time between the observation, command and execution of any manouvre or operation.

[Fonsini]

Could an Air Defence fighter ever be unmanned or remotely operated? Physics would dictate that you would have a (small) lag time between the observation, command and execution of any manouvre or operation.
Once you have sensor fusion across every spectrum (MW/IR/Visual) the rest is down to the core logic but we are a long way from that. As with self-driving road cars versus Formula 1 race cars, we will see airline pilots replaced first. Fully automated FJs twirling around each other in 6th Gen "dogfights" are at least 30 years away and probably more like 50.

But would you really want to hang a nuke on one of them ?

[Whenurhappy]

The Turkish Air Force without a doubt see this as a cheaper option to F35 and one which they can own outright and therefore export. They have confirmed a twin-engines design. Current CDS Sir Stu Peach lobbied heavily on this when he was vice Chief.

[ShotOne]

"We will see airline pilots replaced first..."? Considering military pilots in some roles have already been replaced, that's already a dodgy prediction. Being as the travelling public have yet to accept driverless trains, this may be some way down the line.

Artists impressions look good. Can we have some?

[Wander00]

And drivers won't accept guardless trains..................No, that's guards won't accept guardless trains, no.....

[Fonsini]

I see driverless cars on a daily basis here in Phoenix, and do you think those monorail trains at the airport have drivers? It's closer than you think.

But FJ's will be last - I do believe that.

[ShotOne]

Well go on believing that but many FJ roles have been undertaken by RPAS for some years now...Quite a lot of them crash, too. If every pranged Reaper had had 300 people on board there'd be some explaining to do!

"...not hanging nukes on them"??. Nukes have been deployed mainly in unmanned missiles (Dr Strangelove aside) since the 60's

[Bigbux]

Being as the travelling public have yet to accept driverless trains, this may be some way down the line.

Take trip on DLR - the front seats are quite popular and the conductors very chatty.

Isn't the problem with the current generation of UAVs that they can lose signal if banked too steeply, and that sometimes the pilots lose situational awareness?

Future UAVs would be more or less autonomous and free to make their own decisions within a set of parameters. This is a major topic of concern for Western countries.

[ORAC]

https://www.defensenews.com/industry/techwatch/2018/05/02/turkeys-fighter-jet-program-races-ahead-as-russian-firm-reveals-interest/

ANKARA, Turkey — Turkey’s program for the design, development and production (https://www.defensenews.com/industry/2018/04/16/turkey-provides-tax-breaks-loans-to-attract-investment-in-local-defense-programs/) of the country’s first indigenous fighter jet gained pace late in April when two local prime contractors joined forces to outline a production scheme for critical parts. Meanwhile, in a surprise move, a top Russian aerospace concern expressed interest in developing an engine to power the TF-X, the Turkish fighter aircraft in the making......

Turkish procurement officials have confirmed Russian interest in a plan for the development of an engine that would power the TF-X. “There is a Russian interest in this regard, but it is too premature to say if the idea would gain further ground,” an official said. A Turkish diplomat said Turkey’s political ties with Russia were “excellent,” adding that the current political ties paved the way for deeper military and procurement cooperation......

Viktor Kladov, director of international cooperation and regional policies at Rostec, a Russian defense conglomerate, told press at the Eurasia Airshow in Antalya, Turkey, that his company would prepare a proposal for cooperation with Turkey on aircraft engines. “We could supply an engine,” he said......

Turkey’s ambitious TF-X program currently awaits a critical presidential endorsement. After formal go-ahead from President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the program would race ahead, procurement officials say. The TF-X and other major indigenous development programs are Erdogan’s pet projects. The next critical stage will be a Turkish decision to choose an engine for the TF-X.......

[Brat]

Turkey may very well be cognisant of the increasing sentiment that the F-35 sale to Turkey is not a good idea for a number of reasons. If this were to be the case an indigenous product would be a useful fall back.

Turkeys recent purchase of the Russian missile system did not go down well either with NATO or the US. The blocking of F-35’s to Turkey would certainly create a big problem problem, but it has already been notable by the lack of information for a while now, however one that may well have been in part anticipated. No crystal ball was needed to see, it is one that has been growing quietly for a while now.

There have been cancellations before of major military contracts, and country to country collaborations, US F16’s to Pakistan, India and the PAK FA T-50, Russia’s French Mistral ships, and while they undoubtedly can create major problems they do happen.

LM had indicated some time earlier that Turkey was not indispensable to the program, and no doubt has already been studying alternatives. The US military and State Department will also have have been examining the whole situation carefully. Erdogan has been quite strident over the last couple of years and Turkey’s commitment to NATO questioned.

While it is indisputable that Turkey is geopolitically important it is also idisputable that there has been a drift in the direction of both Russia and China, and it’s nomination as the leader of the Islamic Military Alliance.

Even recently there has been friction.
The U.S. alliance in Syria is falling apart as Turkey wages its own war on “terror” (http://www.newsweek.com/us-military-alliance-syria-could-fall-apart-turkey-fight-war-terror-867378)

Turkey’s choice of the Russian Missile system is another irritant and potential sticking point.
Turkey Dismisses U.S. Warning Against Buying Russian Missile System (https://www.rferl.org/a/turkey-cavusoglu-dismisses-us-warning-against-buying-russian-2-400-missile-system-pompeo-done-deal/29197261.html)
If Turkey buys the Russian S-400 missile system, it can't be allowed to buy the F-35 fighter jet (https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/if-turkey-buys-the-russian-s-400-missile-system-it-cant-be-allowed-to-buy-the-f-35-fighter-jet)

The sale of F-14’s to Iran, and the Shah’s quickly following ejection remains as a historical reminder that things can go very sour very fast.

[Whenurhappy]

This is Turkish brinksmanship and Russian meddling. The key to TFX is IP and technology transfer, which the Russians are unlikely to share with a NATO member. RR negotiations are Government-backed and I sense that this will co e to a head within 2 weeks. If Turkey was to bring Russia into the deal, out goes BAES and HMG technology transfer. And that means end of TFX

[oldmansquipper]

Surely we wouldn't give up our technology to a dodgy customer for a mere pittance would we?

I mean, it's not like we have done it before, is it?

and anyway, when St Jezza gets in they will get it for free.

��

[Heathrow Harry]

Now that starts to make sense!

A Russian airframe with UK engines and avionics - might sell quite a few...............

[Wander00]

I would still rather we sold Erdogen and his cronies nothing more lethal than a very blunt penknife. Indeed I would not want to see any support for his regime, and it is time tourists realised their cash is propping up his regime and went elsewhere

[Cazalet33]

A Russian airframe with UK engines

That would work. Bin dun before y'know.

We could call the engine a Meme and the resultant aircraft a Faggot (Maggot for the maritime version)..

[glad rag]

Turkey may very well be cognisant of the increasing sentiment that the F-35 sale to Turkey is not a good idea for a number of reasons. If this were to be the case an indigenous product would be a useful fall back.

Turkeys recent purchase of the Russian missile system did not go down well either with NATO or the US. The blocking of F-35’s to Turkey would certainly create a big problem problem, but it has already been notable by the lack of information for a while now, however one that may well have been in part anticipated. No crystal ball was needed to see, it is one that has been growing quietly for a while now.

There have been cancellations before of major military contracts, and country to country collaborations, US F16’s to Pakistan, India and the PAK FA T-50, Russia’s French Mistral ships, and while they undoubtedly can create major problems they do happen.

LM had indicated some time earlier that Turkey was not indispensable to the program, and no doubt has already been studying alternatives. The US military and State Department will also have have been examining the whole situation carefully. Erdogan has been quite strident over the last couple of years and Turkey’s commitment to NATO questioned.

While it is indisputable that Turkey is geopolitically important it is also idisputable that there has been a drift in the direction of both Russia and China, and it’s nomination as the leader of the Islamic Military Alliance.

Even recently there has been friction.
The U.S. alliance in Syria is falling apart as Turkey wages its own war on “terror” (http://www.newsweek.com/us-military-alliance-syria-could-fall-apart-turkey-fight-war-terror-867378)

Turkey’s choice of the Russian Missile system is another irritant and potential sticking point.
Turkey Dismisses U.S. Warning Against Buying Russian Missile System (https://www.rferl.org/a/turkey-cavusoglu-dismisses-us-warning-against-buying-russian-2-400-missile-system-pompeo-done-deal/29197261.html)
If Turkey buys the Russian S-400 missile system, it can't be allowed to buy the F-35 fighter jet (https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/if-turkey-buys-the-russian-s-400-missile-system-it-cant-be-allowed-to-buy-the-f-35-fighter-jet)

The sale of F-14’s to Iran, and the Shah’s quickly following ejection remains as a historical reminder that things can go very sour very fast.

Point of order on that first link.

It actually says..U.S. MILITARY ALLIANCE IN SYRIA COULD FALL APART AS TURKEY FIGHTS ITS OWN WAR ON ‘TERROR’
A small but important detail.

[Heathrow Harry]

That would work. Bin dun before y'know.

We could call the engine a Meme and the resultant aircraft a Faggot (Maggot for the maritime version)..

yeah but we didn't make any money out of it - I think it would make the Indian short-list for sure .......................:ok:

[Brat]

Point of order on that first link.

It actually says..U.S. MILITARY ALLIANCE IN SYRIA COULD FALL APART AS TURKEY FIGHTS ITS OWN WAR ON ‘TERROR’
A small but important detail.

Another small detail, for you...I didn’t write the link, you will have to take that point up with the authors of that link.

[ORAC]

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2020/01/13/turkey-invites-malaysia-to-join-its-tf-x-future-fighter-jet-program/Turkey invites Malaysia to join its TF-X future fighter jet programANKARA, Turkey — A state-owned Turkish company as invited Malaysia to join the country’s indigenous fighter program, the TF-X, following Ankara’s suspension from the U.S.-led F-35 Joint Strike Fighter program.

Temel Kotil, CEO of Turkish Aerospace Industries, said he is now awaiting Malaysia’s reply. Last year, TAI signed a memorandum of understanding with the Asian nation for the co-production of TF-X composites. TAI is also considering Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Kazakhstan as potential partners or buyers of the future fighter jet. “[TF-X] will be the first big fighter jet of the Muslims,” Kotil said. “Building the aircraft first and then selling it is a modality. But we think it’s better if we take in partners at this stage.".....

Meanwhile, the Turkish government is keen to revive talks (https://www.defensenews.com/industry/2019/12/12/turkey-to-rolls-royce-lets-renegotiate-terms-for-tf-x-fighter-jet-support/) with British company Rolls-Royce for the design and production of the TF-X. Foreign Minister Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu said in December that the government wants to move forward with its planned cooperation with Britain for the production of the aircraft. But Turkey must first select an engine for the TF-X and then finalize the aircraft’s full design — a process that has lagged behind schedule. A £100 million (U.S. $131 million) deal between Rolls-Royce and Turkish manufacturer Kale Group was effectively put on hold amid uncertainties over technology transfer.

In October 2016, Rolls-Royce offered a joint production partnership to Turkey to power the country’s planned platforms. The offer involved potential sales to third parties and a production unit in Turkey to manufacture engines for the TF-X as well as helicopters, tanks and missiles. A year before that, in October 2015, a memorandum of understanding was signed between Turkey and Rolls-Royce for technological know-how and a production unit. Under the plan, Rolls-Royce would launch an advanced manufacturing and technology center in Turkey ― the company’s eighth such unit worldwide.

Also in 2017, BAE Systems and TAI signed a $125 million heads of agreement to collaborate on the first development phase of the TF-X.

Turkey’s aerospace and procurement officials now aim to fly the TF-X in the 2025-2026 time frame, despite an original target of 2023.

[Auxtank]

Actually, I thought Theresa May was quite sexy in a weird sort of way but this isn't the time to say that.
(Running naked through hayfields, etc)
Sorry.
I'll leave you to your discussions...

[TBM-Legend]

Find her on granny.com I guess...

:rolleyes:

[Whenurhappy]

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2020/01/13/turkey-invites-malaysia-to-join-its-tf-x-future-fighter-jet-program/Turkey invites Malaysia to join its TF-X future fighter jet programANKARA, Turkey — A state-owned Turkish company as invited Malaysia to join the country’s indigenous fighter program, the TF-X, following Ankara’s suspension from the U.S.-led F-35 Joint Strike Fighter program.

Temel Kotil, CEO of Turkish Aerospace Industries, said he is now awaiting Malaysia’s reply. Last year, TAI signed a memorandum of understanding with the Asian nation for the co-production of TF-X composites. TAI is also considering Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Kazakhstan as potential partners or buyers of the future fighter jet. “[TF-X] will be the first big fighter jet of the Muslims,” Kotil said. “Building the aircraft first and then selling it is a modality. But we think it’s better if we take in partners at this stage.".....

Meanwhile, the Turkish government is keen to revive talks (https://www.defensenews.com/industry/2019/12/12/turkey-to-rolls-royce-lets-renegotiate-terms-for-tf-x-fighter-jet-support/) with British company Rolls-Royce for the design and production of the TF-X. Foreign Minister Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu said in December that the government wants to move forward with its planned cooperation with Britain for the production of the aircraft. But Turkey must first select an engine for the TF-X and then finalize the aircraft’s full design — a process that has lagged behind schedule. A £100 million (U.S. $131 million) deal between Rolls-Royce and Turkish manufacturer Kale Group was effectively put on hold amid uncertainties over technology transfer.

In October 2016, Rolls-Royce offered a joint production partnership to Turkey to power the country’s planned platforms. The offer involved potential sales to third parties and a production unit in Turkey to manufacture engines for the TF-X as well as helicopters, tanks and missiles. A year before that, in October 2015, a memorandum of understanding was signed between Turkey and Rolls-Royce for technological know-how and a production unit. Under the plan, Rolls-Royce would launch an advanced manufacturing and technology center in Turkey ― the company’s eighth such unit worldwide.

Also in 2017, BAE Systems and TAI signed a $125 million heads of agreement to collaborate on the first development phase of the TF-X.

Turkey’s aerospace and procurement officials now aim to fly the TF-X in the 2025-2026 time frame, despite an original target of 2023.
That's good news potentially for RR and BAES, and a number of British SMEs.

Temel Kotil - CEO/TAI was the architect of the massive expansion of Turkish Airlines - now one of the world's largest air operators (and good to travel with, as well).

[Speedywheels]

I'm surprised Indonesia is on Turkey's target list when they already are involved in their own fighter development in collaboration with Korea, Also KF-X (or IF-X) is in a more advanced stage than TF-X.

[Whenurhappy]

This programme means an awful lot more now that Turkey has been frozen out of F-35; will also hurt sections of their aerospace industry that was manufacturing components, as well as the planned European engine service hub.

The 2023 aspiration was to be able to display the aircraft on the 100th Anniversary of the founding of the Republic. I think a fi-glass mock up will be towed across Anit Kabir in Ankara.