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PilotJames
21st Jan 2017, 14:28
When we have an EFATO ECAM brings up the ENG 1(2) START VALVE FAULT. Why is this generated?
I know the ECAM is generated due to the start valve being stuck closed or open but why would this be generated on an EFATO?
I was told to treat this as spurious?

Cheers in advance

vilas
21st Jan 2017, 14:38
This is an erroneous message. You just ignore it.

Goldenrivett
21st Jan 2017, 14:55
Why is this generated?
Since you had IGN switch set to Start/Ignition AND Eng Master Switch On AND N2<12% AND below FL 200 then Fadec attempts to do a "starter assist relight". Since the cross bleed valve is closed and the APU is not supplying Bleed Air (Normally) then the start valve can't open and the "Fault Message" is generated. Often you may notice ECAM also asks you to open the "X-Bleed Valve".

It's considered best practice to attempt a relight from QRH when you get to STATUS and consider OEBs, Resets & Expanded CL.

PilotJames
21st Jan 2017, 15:30
Thank you guys for that info I really appreciate it!
So basically when we get to it on ECAM it's spurious as it was generated when we put the mode selector to ignition.
Consider relight at Status as usual.
Always wondered why it was generated in the first place :) Thank you

767-300ER
22nd Jan 2017, 04:31
Thanks Goldenrivett

I noticed that the status page asked us to turn the cross-bleed valve "ON" which left me confused as the only position on the switch that started with an O on the cross-bleed valve switch was "OPEN"

vilas
22nd Jan 2017, 05:50
Goldenrivett
I am not convinced by your explanation because this message doesn't appear on all EFATOs or on later version SIMs like 1.7 or 1.8 std. It may be just erroneous linking of the message.The cross bleed message comes as "if performance permits Cross bleed open". This has different purpose. When you loose an engine that side bleed is lost and that also leads to that side pack closure. Now you are in single bleed single pack operation. Should that pack have a problem the pressurisation is lost. So by opening the cross bleed you have single bleed two pack operation. So as long as the bleed is OK you have at least one pack. Cross bleed open message come only if there is no damage.

Goldenrivett
22nd Jan 2017, 08:54
Hi vilas,
Cross bleed open message come only if there is no damage.
Lucky you.
We get that message in most of our sims even with damage AND FPB pushed!

I've never had the luxury of seeing what our aircraft's ECAMS tell us to do (with the latest spec std?), only what our ancient sims tell us.

The cross bleed message comes as "if performance permits Cross bleed open"
That status line is there incase you need wing anti-icing - it is not involve with pack problems. With no packs you are invited to open the "Ram Air Valve". With Cross Bleed Valve closed you are told to "Avoid icing conditions."

On some of our sims there is an ECAM reference to the Start Valve Fault and position of Cross Bleed Valve. I'll try to take a photo some time.

PilotJames
22nd Jan 2017, 10:45
So does it come up due to the reasons stated above I.e eng mode selector ignition below FL200 N2<12? It makes sense that is why it would generate that ECAM. My one question is why it doesn't always come up?

vilas
22nd Jan 2017, 13:38
That status line is there in case you need wing anti-icing - it is not involve with pack problems. With no packs you are invited to open the "Ram Air Valve". With Cross Bleed Valve closed you are told to "Avoid icing conditions."That is not correct. It has nothing to do with anti ice. It asks you to open cross bleed to get the other pack. With anti ice you cannot use single bleed and two packs. It will ask you to shut one pack. I have used 1.2, 1.3, 1.5, 1.7 and 1.8 stds. There are differences because the ECAM drills depends on FWC standard. Extract below:
 If WING A/ICE off and ENG 1(2) FIRE pb-sw not
pressed:
 IF PERF PERMITS:
X BLEED.................................................... OPEN
If no obstacle constraint exists, open the XBLEED, and decrease the single engine gross ceiling by1 200 ft (Refer to PER-OEI-ALT-10
GROSS CEILINGS AT LONG RANGE AND GREEN DOT SPEEDS).
CAT 3 SINGLE ONLY
ONE PACK ONLY IF WAI ON

Goldenrivett
22nd Jan 2017, 15:25
My one question is why it doesn't always come up?
I think it is because of different sims and the ECAM standard they are imitating.

Here's a picture of an ECAM line during EFTO taken in one of our sims.
http://www.blackholes.org.uk/PP/Start%20valve.jpg

Notice how that ECAM standard then invited you to open the X Bleed Valve (ON).

villas,
It has nothing to do with anti ice
You may believe the Status invitation to open the X Bleed Valve is for Pack operation only, but I believe it is also there to enable symmetrical wing anti-icing.

If wing anti-ice ON:
PACK (affected side) OFF
One pack must be closed when wing anti-ice is in use due to precooler performance.
If ENG FIRE pb not pushed:
X BLEED (if ENG FIRE pb not pushed) OPEN
X BLEED selector must be opened to have symmetrical wing anti-icing.

Single pack operation (or using the APU for the packs) presents no problem.
Wing Anti-icing is only available from an engine bleed and with X-Bleed Valve open. If you don't have wing anti-icing and you are in icing conditions, then there is a Landing Distance performance penalty (due increase in VAPP).
Single Pack Operation doesn't affect Landing Distance.

fruitloop
23rd Jan 2017, 00:04
As Goldenrivett has stated....BTW different Engine fitments alter the "software" used..

vilas
23rd Jan 2017, 10:21
You may believe the Status invitation to open the X Bleed Valve is for Pack operation only, but I believe it is also there to enable symmetrical wing anti-icing. I agree that opening of cross bleed is also to make the wing anti ice available when required.
If you see the OEB for OEB for AIR ENG Bleed 1(2) fault it mentions both the purposes.
In case of AIR ENG 1(2) BLEED ABNORMAL PR or AIR ENG 1(2) BLEED FAULT ECAM cautions, the current associated ECAM procedures, ask to open the cross bleed valve in order to supply both Packs (or one Pack and the Wing Anti-Ice system) with the remaining engine bleed.