Flight Cancellation - Claim Compensation?

[A320ECAM]

Hello,

If a flight was cancelled due to "severe weather conditions, more specifically heavy snow, rain and fog, which made the operation of the flight impossible" (quote from the airline's claim department), you can still be entitled to compensation, right? I thought severe weather conditions refer to "freak" weather conditions.

Yet two other airlines (RYR and LOT) both operated normally without delays.

The airline in question is refusing to compensate a friend of mine but I've told him to stick to his guns and continue to pursue it (perhaps through the CAA as he resides in the UK and the airline in question is of Hungarian origin).

Any hope?

[WHBM]

Poor weather can disorganise an airline's operations.


However the compensation is still payable. It is entirely under the airline's control HOW they handle any weather disruption. For example, British Airways, as a matter of policy, if there is any disruption, cancel many of the domestic sectors at Heathrow while still ensuring they get their full long-haul programme away in the limited slots available. It is entirely a commercial decision to do this, which flights to delay/cancel when there is any shortage of resources. There is no reason why cancelled passengers should suffer from a "some passengers are more important than others" policy.

Likewise if there has been poor weather it is wholly the airline's commercial decision the extent to which they hold reserve capacity of standby aircraft/crews, or not. If they choose not to, or run out, that again has been a commercial decision of theirs.

Carriers typically know the percentages of flight losses due to disorganisation they encounter over the year where they are liable to compensate passengers, and the regulators expect them to build these numbers into their overall cost of doing business.

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

If a flight was cancelled due to "severe weather conditions, more specifically heavy snow, rain and fog, which made the operation of the flight impossible"

If the weather is that poor then no compensation is payable surely, how can the airline be responsible for the weather?

Just because other airlines were able to continue to operate means nothing unless they were operating the same aeroplanes, and even then there are differences. Your airline might operate aeroplanes that can't land in the thick fog that another airlines can, even with the same aeroplane type different companies have different limits on all sorts of things. In your example you quote "heavy snow", some operators might restrict operations on runways with different slippery conditions dependent on their risk assessment.

[ExXB]

Weather conditions are considered to be outside of the control of the airline and therefore an 'extraordinary circumstance'. Under the terms of R261 compensation is not payable for flight cancellations or delays due to weather. However the airline remains responsible for refund, reroute and care (meals and hotac) as applicable.

The weather conditions causing the delay are not necessarily just those at the passenger's departure airport. The airport of departure of the incoming aircraft could have been closed, while other airports (flown to by FR and LO perhaps) did not experience the same. The regulation does not define weather conditions, but it is not only 'freak' conditions.

The UK CAA is the NEB for the UK. By all means contact them and they will ask the airline for proof of the reasons for the delay. However if the flight wasn't to/from a U.K. airport expect them to put it to the bottom of the pile. Prepare to wait.

[WHBM]

Just because other airlines were able to continue to operate means nothing unless they were operating the same aeroplanes, and even then there are differences. Your airline might operate aeroplanes that can't land in the thick fog that another airlines can, even with the same aeroplane type different companies have different limits on all sorts of things. In your example you quote "heavy snow", some operators might restrict operations on runways with different slippery conditions dependent on their risk assessment.
All these excuses but the fact is these are operational, not weather issues.

The carrier may have decided not to fit the Cat 3 kit on their aircraft which others do, or not to train/maintain the currency of crews in its usage. That's an operational and penny-pinching decision, not a weather issue.

I have been delayed in the UK "due to the snow" on a carrier, where the same carrier has operated with me, on the same type, quite happily in the snow in Finland and Russia (where if you didn't there would be little winter service).

I've also been cancelled "because as you can see it's snowing" where in practice their handling agent had run out of de-icing fluid ...

[DaveReidUK]

I have been delayed in the UK "due to the snow" on a carrier, where the same carrier has operated with me, on the same type, quite happily in the snow in Finland and Russia (where if you didn't there would be little winter service).

You've answered your own question - it's a principally a consequence of the airport's ability to cope (or not) with the extremes of winter weather.

As discussed on another thread, it's much easier to plan for conditions that occur for several months of the year rather than those that only happen about 1% of the time.

So hardly a situation,in this instance, that's within the airline's control.

[BEagle]

When LHR obliges airlines to cancel flights on forecast, rather than actual weather, the airline should contact all affected passengers in sufficient time for them to consider all alternative options.

Today germanwings cancelled its afternoon flight 4U464 to LHR - but I gather it did so yesterday! I was on that flight, but didn't find out until I arrived at the airport - it was then too late to find any alternative except a thoroughly inconvenient 3.5 hours delay. I wasn't even offered a meal voucher, let alone any more tangible compensation.

Heathrow isn't closed - it's just that some passengers are clearly more important than others :(

I do wish germanwings / eurowings / Lufthansa would offer a direct Birmingham to Köln service and avoid that wretched place west of Hounslow!

[Porky Speedpig]

Heathrow Airport, NATS, Airlines, ACL, Met Office etc operate a CAA agreed Demand versus Capacity system when there is a threat of severe weather disruption. The CAA has agreed that cancellations from that process (as they are in the wider best interests of all travellers) are exempt from EU261 compensation although duty of care applies and indeed the CAA send "spot checkers" to the terminals to police this.
A very sensible and pragmatic decision that avoids the temptation for airlines and airport to play chicken and hope for the best.

[ExXB]

BEagle. If you kept your receipts for any meal expense you should submit them to germanwings.

But the cancellation really wasn't their fault. They are out of pocket as well, and they have no Regulation that awards them compensation.

And I agree they need to provide better notice. You did have your contact details with them? Many travel agents refuse to pass these along to the airlines.

[WHBM]

Today germanwings cancelled its afternoon flight 4U464 to LHR - but I gather it did so yesterday! I was on that flight, but didn't find out until I arrived at the airportWhatever for ? I can see that this afternoon's flight has been cancelled, but Today (Jan 24) has been CAVOK all afternoon, no sub-zero temperatures. I could see those orbiting the Lambourne VOR from Central London.


The CAA has agreed that cancellations from that process (as they are in the wider best interests of all travellers) are exempt from EU261 compensationWhoever authorised this ? It is NOT "in the best interests of all travellers" that carriers then cherry-pick their cancellations to keep the most lucrative services going.

I wasn't even offered a meal voucher, let alone any more tangible compensation.Little point anyway. The last time I got given a voucher (BA at T5) it was refused at the Pret-a-Manger inside the terminal on the grounds that "we don't accept those".

[ExXB]

Whoever authorised this ? It is NOT "in the best interests of all travellers" that carriers then cherry-pick their cancellations to keep the most lucrative services going.

The CAA is the UK's National Enforcement Body. It is their remit to enforce the implementation of Regulation 261.

How would you suggest the airlines choose the flights they cancel? Keeping in mind the need to spread out the cancellations over the period in question. Even BA, holding the largest number of slots does not the same number of slots each hour.

Of course the airline tries to cancel the flights with the lighter loads, while considering the loads of returning flights, as this inconveniences the fewest number of passengers. But it is an art, not a science.

[Groundloop]

The carrier may have decided not to fit the Cat 3 kit on their aircraft which others do, or not to train/maintain the currency of crews in its usage. That's an operational and penny-pinching decision, not a weather issue.

Who said that the airline in question operated aircraft that were even capable of having Cat 3 equipment fitted?

[Mark in CA]

When it comes to bad weather, you're probably out of luck looking for any compensation:

"With cancelled flights, you won't receive compensation if . . . the cancellation was due to extraordinary circumstances, for example due to bad weather..."

"An operating air carrier shall not be obliged to pay compensation in accordance with Article 7, if it can prove that the cancellation is caused by extraordinary circumstances which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken."

I don't think this requires or depends on how an aircraft is equipped.

Still, even in these circumstances the airline is "required to offer you either:

* a ticket refund (in full or just the part you have not used)
* alternative transport to your final destination at the earliest opportunity or
* rebooking at a later date of your choice (subject to seat availability).

Airlines must also provide assistance, when necessary, while you are waiting for alternative transport."

Air Passenger Rights - Cancellation (http://www.airpassengerrights.eu/en/flight-cancellation.html)

On top of all that, you're dealing with Hungarians! Good luck with that! ;)

[Espada III]

I do wish germanwings / eurowings / Lufthansa would offer a direct Birmingham to Köln service and avoid that wretched place west of Hounslow!

Why not fly from Dusseldorf with Flybe direct? Easier to drive to DUS than change planes in Heathrow.

[BEagle]

Cancelling flights is one thing, but failing to provide passengers with sufficient notice to enable them to make alternative arrangements is quite another.

I heard back from Eurowings - they claim that as I booked through Lufthansa (as I've always done) rather than through them, they didn't have my details. Personally I think that's nonsense - there needs to be much better liaison between members of the Lufthansa group.

5 hours in the Business lounge at Köln wasn't much fun - the selection of food has dropped to a new low.

Next time I'll fly BHX-DUS and then DB it to Köln Hbhof! But not in some vibrating turboprop...

[A320ECAM]

Thank you for the feedback so far guys - much appreciated.

I have managed to find the METARs for the flight.

The cancelled flight was due to depart at 2030 (all pax were onboard sitting down at this time with doors closed):
METAR EPPO 162030Z VRB01KT 0500 R28/1500 FZFG NSC M06/M06 Q1035

It was still at the gate at 2100 having been delayed due to weather:
METAR EPPO 162100Z VRB02KT 0600 R28/1900 FZFG NSC M05/M06 Q1035

The pilots then cancelled the flight at 2330:
METAR EPPO 162330Z 24003KT 0300 R28/0650 FZFG NSC M03/M04 Q1034

The next morning, the rescheduled flight departed on time at 0630:
METAR EPPO 170630Z 20002KT 0400 R28/0700 FZFG VV001 M05/M05 Q1034

How can that be? The visibility, RVR and FZFG is just as bad for the rescheduled flight (if not, worse) than the cancelled flight?

I believe the challenge to this Hungarian LCC is not that the flight was cancelled due to "extraordinary" weather, but why was the following morning's flight able to depart in similar/worse wxr conditions?

[Hotel Tango]

Why not fly from Dusseldorf with Flybe direct? Easier to drive to DUS than change planes in Heathrow.

Or, even better than Flybe, with Eurowings on their A320s. :E

[BEagle]

That's my intention - although the flight is actually operated by germanwings using the A319!

[Hotel Tango]

I was referring to BHX-DUS :)

[PAXboy]

Reusing an old thread...

Can I confirm that, following a canx flight, the carrier has to get the pax back to their original departure point? In this case, it was LTN.

EZY managed to get the pax back to LGW (2.5 days later!) but will they cover the cost of pax then getting to LTN to collect their car? Cheers.

[ExXB]

Catch 22; The airline is required to get the passenger to the airport booked or, with the passengers agreement, another place.

So pax offered a (Hobson's) choice; We can get you back to LTN in a fortnight or so or, if you agree, to LGW the day after tomorrow. Your only other option is a 'full' refund.

I sonehow doubt they seek explicit agreement and probably don't record it but the regulation envisions delivering a pax to another point.

I'd check with one of the companies doing 261 claims. They won't take a case they know they won't win.

[RAT 5]

So pax offered a (Hobson's) choice; We can get you back to LTN in a fortnight or so or, if you agree, to LGW the day after tomorrow.

Why not plane to LGW then taxi to LTN? I wonder if you might be able to claim that; because was it not also necessary to achieve transporting you to your original destination 'within reasonable time'?

[PAXboy]

Thanks ExXB. Yes, RAT 5, my friends did have to do that and will claim from EZY first and, since one of them works in the travel biz and the other is a Police officer - they will not be taking no for an answer! I'll report back.

[ExXB]

They are each entitled to the €250 compensation. I doubt squeezie will voluntarily cough up other expenses (not specified in the regulation) without a fight, to avoid setting a precedence. Small claims court (or the equivalent) may be the only way.

Note U2s Conditions of carriage provide that: 5.1.1 Fares apply only for carriage from the airport at the point of origin to the airport at the point of destination. (Emphasis added). Nothing there gives them the right to deliver the passenger to another airport, even another airport of the same city.

Also, from Easyjet's webpage: When the delay is our fault we’ll also pay you EC261 compensation to cover additional expenses such as car parking or ongoing travel. See: https://www.easyjet.com/en/help/boarding-and-flying/delays-and-cancellations

I've been assuming the pax have contacted U2 and have been rebuffed. If they haven't yet, they should.

[Piltdown Man]

It is now an unfortunate fact of life that airports operations in conjunction with ATC restrict flow rates at major airports. The losers in this are the passengers and airlines. Even though aircraft can normally operate in these poor conditions they are not even given the chance of doing so. I remember holding for ages whilst every plonker ahead of was offered an approach that they couldn't accept because RVR was 100M or so. Whilst this was happening, we and every other CAT IIIB were burning fuel and wasting time. Worse happens after you land. The connecting flights are often diverted or cancelled and outbound slots mean you should have stayed at home.

And then we have EU 261 compo regs. Fog happens, but so rarely it is reasonable it is reasonable to regard it as exceptional. Strong winds are the same. But what about gusts? If you fly into Leeds you can often make an approach that is within crosswind limits but gusts make it virtually impossible for you to safely land. So do the punters deserve compo for that? And while we are here, if an aircraft is maintained according to the manufacturer's schedule and all "lifed" components are replaced, is compo payable if a component fails prematurely?

Methinks too many people are too greedy and airlines have been unfairly discriminated against. Let's have a level playing field and include rail, bus and ships in compo regs written exactly the same as those that apply to airlines.

[PAXboy]

Thanks folks, I'm passing on your helpful info. They will be putting in the first claim this week. It seems like a standard problem in that, the a/c had operated other sectors that day but cout could not be despatched (for whatever reason) and so the out and rtn flights canx. The machine was operating again the next day.