Air NZ SOPs regarding allowed number of approaches

[Needle Knocker]

Quick question for any Air NZ drivers here.

"What's the current SOP / Policy regarding the number of approaches that can be made before diverting"?

Always thought it was two. Any updates? Exceptions? Hard and fast policy??

[Visual_Approach]

No such SOP on my fleet at least. One would hope common sense would prevail

[Needle Knocker]

Many thanks V_A.

[DeltaT]

No SOP on that, check the manuals.
Also dependent on the fuel loaded!

[Needle Knocker]

Thanks DeltaT. Yes - obviously subject to fuel.

I know there's a 2 approach limit in the event of a comms failure (and you have to start your 2nd approach withing 1/2 hour of your expected ETA), but looks like my memory failed me with regards to the rest.

Not sure if it's never been an SOP or if it changed at some point. Can definitely remember reading it somewhere, just not sure where (not what it applied to).

[ElZilcho]

The comms failure procedure you speak of is outlined in the NZAIP rather than an Airline specific SOP. ENR 1.15 - 8 Diversion

I'm familiar with a few Airlines who have a requirement to divert after 2 unsuccessful approaches, although even then, the PIC can exercise their authority to conduct a 3rd.

Personally, I'm not a fan of trying to create SOP's in place of good airmanship.

[Needle Knocker]

The comms failure procedure you speak of is outlined in the NZAIP rather than an Airline specific SOP. ENR 1.15 - 8 Diversion

Yes. My apologies - I probably should have mentioned that.

I'm familiar with a few Airlines who have a requirement to divert after 2 unsuccessful approaches, although even then, the PIC can exercise their authority to conduct a 3rd.

Thanks for that. Thinking about it some more, it may be that I read it in a human factors publication. I think the stated intention was to mitigate the temptation to progressively "bend" the limits on subsequent approaches.

Personally, I'm not a fan of trying to create SOP's in place of good airmanship.

I agree entirely.

[PLovett]

An interesting question to which I do not know the answer but I am aware that there is a growing trend in Europe for some airlines that an approach cannot even be commenced if the weather is below minimums and recently watched a Youtube video of a chap in a DA42 shooting an ILS into Linate who explained that he could only continue the approach beyond the outer marker because the weather was reported as above minimums. There is also plenty of statistical data that the risk of CFIT goes up on the second and subsequent approaches - getinitis rearing its ugly head.

[AerocatS2A]

No approach bans in Australia. If you want to have a look there's nothing stopping you, regardless of the weather.

[DeltaT]

Haven't checked on 121, but for 135:
135.157 Cannot commence a flight if ETA is below landing minima

135.159 Can't go past final approach fix, or if none, after procedure turn, if Viz is below landing

135.161 Can't depart if no landing alternate within 1hr on single engine

[sunnySA]

No approach bans in Australia. If you want to have a look there's nothing stopping you, regardless of the weather.

I believe that this all changed with CAT II and CAT III operations and that in fact, approach bans do apply. Certainly in Sydney CAT II equipped aircraft will be given priority over CAT I aircraft.

[AerocatS2A]

Wouldn't surprise me if a rule change has left me behind.

[AerocatS2A]

DeltaT, Parts 121 and 135 don't exist yet in Australia. The bits you mentioned for Part 135 are proposed rules only.

[empacher48]

DeltaT, Parts 121 and 135 don't exist yet in Australia. The bits you mentioned for Part 135 are proposed rules only.

Yes, but Part 121, 125 and 135 have been working in NZ for years. I don't know why AirNZ would be using the Australian rules in NZ anyway. DeltaT would've been looking at the NZ rules.

[AerocatS2A]

Yes sorry, I thought he was referring to the comments about approach bans in Australia.