Tigerair Bali flights grounded

[Goat Whisperer]

from TT's website:

Denpasar (Bali) Cancellations 11 Jan
Tigerair Australia has cancelled several flights to Denpasar (Bali) today following a decision by the Indonesian government to impose new administrative requirements for the operation of its flights between Bali and Australia.

A list of cancellations is included below. Tomorrow’s daily return Bali flights are under review and update will be made on this website. In the event of further cancellations, customers will be contacted proactively by Tigerair Australia.

Tigerair is working with the relevant Indonesian authorities to meet the new requirements and is hopeful of having flights up and running again as soon as possible.

All other Tigerair domestic flights are not affected by this decision.

Tigerair is contacting passengers affected by today’s cancellations to provide reaccommodation options to ensure customers are supported during this disruption. Tigerair Australia sincerely apologises for the inconvenience caused by today’s cancellations.

Customers booked to travel on Tigerair services to and from Bali today are advised not to go to the airport and that the airline will contact them directly with their options.

Customers travelling with Tigerair to Bali in the near future are advised to refer to the Tigerair Australia website for regular updates (www.tigerair.com.au) as Tigerair expects a higher than usual volume of calls to the call centre as a consequence.


LIST OF BALI CANCELLATIONS FOR TODAY AND CUSTOMER PROVISIONS

11/1/17- TT1 MEL-DPS
Reaccomodation on next available Virgin Australia service (subject to availability) or full refund.

11/1/17- TT17 ADL-DPS
Full refund

11/1/17- TT24 DPS-PER
Earliest possible reaccomodation on alternate carrier. Hotel accommodation to be provided as these arrangements are made.

11/1/17 TT6 DPS-MEL
Reaccomodation on next available Virgin Australia service (subject to availability).

[Goat Whisperer]

and please don't start with the "they should have paid the bribes". It's not helpful.

[wheels_down]

So what's the Australian Government done to upset Indonesia recently?

[continueapproach737]

Explains the TT 737's that have been parked up out front of YMML for days

[Open Descent]

The whole Bali thing has been a fiasco since the decision to operate it under a separate AOC, a decision that has never been explained well enough to make me understand the reasons behind it in the first place.

When VA pilots began operating old VA 737's in Tiger livery as part of the Tiger operation under the VAI AOC (:ugh::ugh::ugh:), something like this was always bound to happen.

We have been told very little other than what has occurred has done so as a result of the Indonesian Government imposing new administrative requirements. Take that to mean whatever you like, but the mind certainly does boggle.

[Marcellus]

To exercise the Australian rights to operate flights between Australia and Indonesia, you have to be a majority Australian owned airline. Indonesia has their own requirements to exercise their rights.

Tigerair was a majority foreign owned airline before it was bought by Virgin Australia. When Virgin Australia purchased the airline outright, Tiger remained a majority foreign owned airline. Virgin can push this issue, but the Indonesians may start to look more closely at the VAA / VAI corporate structure and determine that VAI is nothing but a shelf company owned and controlled 100% by a majority foreign owned entity in VAA.

[Biatch]

Why don't Q go through this sorta crap? Why is it so hard to operate there?

[onetrack]

So what's the Australian Government done to upset Indonesia recently?Not so much the Govt, but some Army lads apparently had some fun mocking the Indonesian national emblem. Probably using it for target practice. Great offence was taken, and all Indonesian-Australian military co-operation was suspended. That mob are a pretty sensitive bunch of girls.

Indonesian consul responds to military strain with Australia (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-01-10/indonesian-consul-responds-to-military-strain-with-australia/8173492)

[Tommy Bahama]

Why don't Q go through this sorta crap? Why is it so hard to operate there?
because the rocket surgeons at Virgin are smarter than those at Q! Its been proven over and over again.

[Ken Borough]

Why don't Q go through this sorta crap? Why is it so hard to operate there?

Could it be because some people at Qantas, so often denigrated in this forum, actually know what to do and what they are doing? :ugh:

[Lookleft]

Yeah Ken, like the rocket surgeons who tried to start Jetstar Hong Kong, and don't tell me there wasn't any QF input.:ugh:

[nig&nog]

Couldnt have happened to a better bunch of people, it's been an absolute joke that it's taken this long. As stated above other airlines can work it out but for some reason it's beyond the scope at TT/VA.

[megle2]

Didn't they import some high rankers from casa to ensure a smooth change over

[PoppaJo]

Anyone remember this fiasco. Round 2 it seems. The writing has been on the wall for about 5 years.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Airlines-New-Zealand/Pacific-Blue-Airlines/i-qBpnHtP/0/L/Pacificblue-Airline%20of%20Virgin%20Blue%20737-800%20WL%20VH-VUF%20(04)(Apr)%20PER%20(MKG)(46)-L.jpg

[CurtainTwitcher]

Didn't they import some high rankers from casa to ensure a smooth change over

Not only that, they imported one of Ken's famed scalpel wielding "rocket surgeons", hot off the pad.

my bold
Sharp said in the note to staff Wilson was chief pilot for Qantas’s international and domestic operations from 2008 to 2012. Further, Wilson was chief operating officer and accountable manager for the Qantas air operator’s certificate (AOC) in 2012-2014.

“It is a great coup for Tigerair to have a person of Peter’s calibre and experience join our executive team to help support the next phase in our development.

“Peter brings a depth of business experience and will also play a key role within the senior executive team in regard to the broader business including strategy development, strategic priorities and business planning.”
Tigerair Australia appoints new chief pilot and director of flight operations (http://archive.is/4hXkd)

[IsDon]

Peter Wilson was Chief Pilot of Qantas in what can only be described as the lost years. 2008-2012.

Conspicuous in his absence while mainline operations were gutted in favour of the orange cancer.

If you want a sycophant then he's your man. You're welcome to him.

[Vorsicht]

At what point is someone going to hold Borghetti accountable for his decisions and the never ending drain on cash that they are causing?

[Icarus2001]

Surely the simple answer is because Q are MAJORITY Australian owned. Just.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ABh6S2rTFc

[Ken Borough]

Not only that, they imported one of Ken's famed scalpel wielding "rocket surgeons", hot off the pad.


Wrong! Read the linked press report: it says Wilson starts on January 16, 2017. I will accept your apology. :ok:

[CurtainTwitcher]

:ouch: You got me Ken!

[Lookleft]

And yet you don't say anything about Jetstar HK Ken?

[Ken Borough]

And yet you don't say anything about Jetstar HK Ken?

Why should I? This thread is about Tiger being refused authority to operate to Indonesia. My comment was related to that, and had nothing to do with Jetstar or Hong Kong.

[j3pipercub]

I love cognitive dissonance. And big words

[The name is Porter]

Cognitive dissonance = buying an endorsement then telling others not to do it :ok:

[j3pipercub]

Nice. That was quick Jack Ranga/Porter. Now quickly, get across to the 'Walking in cold' thread you can make another snide comment. With the way you're following me around this site, people will start to talk...

[The name is Porter]

Yep, Jack Ranga/The name is Porter. You're not breaking any news there. They're not really snide are they j3? They're the truth. If you want to preach on here how about putting a footer on your posts? You did it. And cognitive dissonance sums it up perfectly actually :ok:

[JDavola]

Why are threads on here always hijacked by complete knobs? It's no wonder the industry is in the state it's in....now, any updates on the Tigerair situation?

[TWT]

Here's an update JD.

Tigerair Bali flight cancellations: Indonesia accuses airline of breaching licence conditions - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-01-12/tigerair-breaching-licence-conditions-indonesian-government-says/8177242)

[JDavola]

Thanks for the TWT.

[Octane]

It's an odd operation. "Tiger" aircraft operated by Virgin tech crew. Ultra low cost crappy service on grubby aircraft (in my experience) with prices not a lot different from the superior Virgin product anyway.
I tried a few times to book one way trips but was not allowed to however..

[morno]

Are you talking about the refurbished interiors with new seats? Grubby?

[Octane]

August last time I flew, don't know when the refurbishment occurred...

[TWT]

From the SMH :

Indonesia blames licence breach for Tigerair's Bali grounding (http://www.smh.com.au/business/aviation/indonesia-blames-licence-breach-for-tigerairs-bali-grounding-20170112-gtq5o5.html)

Describes the licencing problem.
hhh
jjj
jjj
jjj

[-JLS-]

I've seen some examples of the Twitter brigade bringing out the old "I'll never fly [insert airline name] again!!!!!" claims....................until the next Bali holiday in 6 months time when TT are $14 cheaper than anyone else, then all will be forgiven.

[Toruk Macto]

Think we've moved into saving face territory , coming on the back of using their countries emblem as target practice I'm thinking this is not going to go well for Tiger .
Get some Tiger pilots in a Tiger plane with a couple of nav bags full of cash and head north .

[Hasselhof]

until the next Bali holiday in 6 months time when TT are $14 cheaper than anyone else

To be fair $14 can buy a fair bit of Bintang

[denabol]

Latest is Tigerair is allowed to fly from DPS to PER,ADL, MEL until Monday.

https://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2017/01/12/bali/

[flynerd]

Latest is Tigerair is allowed to fly from DPS to PER,ADL, MEL until Monday.

And from the news.abc.com.au site Tiger are going to oblige with one 738...

A Boeing 737-800 aircraft will fly empty to Bali to collect what the airline says is around 2,000 passengers, and return them to Australia.


Dang, I would NOT want to be on that flight back to OZ.

[Icarus2001]

737 operation is dead
Those A320s are going to be around for a long while yet.

Two very BOLD statements there. Would you care to explain why you believe so?

[downdata]

I'll never fly VA again. until they join *A then its bye bye QF forever. But that's not going to happen until JB is kicked to the curb.

[arkmark]

You don't have to look too far to see who is responsible for screwing this up. It's the CEO.
He has treated everyone with complete disdain with his miss handling of Bali. He has infuriated loyal VA clients, and treated the Indonesian regulator with complete arrogance and cultural insult.
Now he has successfully handed all of VA's clients over to the competition on a destination that carries FOUR MILLION tourists a year from Australia alone. VA was even the carrier of choice between SA and Bali. It's all gone now. Nobody liked Tiger.
The leopard has shown it's spots, the tiger never had any stripes and neither should the fool who miss managed this FAILURE !!:=:=:=:=:=

[ozaub]

Presumably few of the Tiger passengers stranded in Bali knew (or cared) that they were flying on a Virgin plane with a Tiger paint job. Or that Tiger had no Air Operators Certificate for the route.
Suppose the situation was reversed. Would Australia allow Lion to fly here without an AOC, using planes leased from Garuda?
Likewise how many passengers flying on Cobham think they are on Qantas; just because Cobham paints its Boeing 717 jets with a Qantas logo?

[Capn Bloggs]

receiprication? Indosnesia
Spel chek! :}

[Fatguyinalittlecoat]

This stuff doesn't happen to Q, because they dot their i's and cross their t's, before they march. There may be the possibility that VA and its affiliates don't. Why?

[Lookleft]

This stuff doesn't happen to Q, because they dot their i's and cross their t's, before they march. There may be the possibility that VA and its affiliates don't. Why?

Your not Ken Borough in a different form are you? It has happened to Q and as I pointed out to Ken, Jetstar HK was a classic example of Q hubris getting in the way of a good understanding of local rules. If anyone thinks that J* tried to set up the HK operation without Q input,guidance and finances then they are naive at best or just DADS. Clearly Virgin have made a major misjudgement as to what is acceptable to the Indonesian authorities but lets not pretend that it is exclusive to airlines other than Qantas.

[Fatguyinalittlecoat]

I disagree. J* HK was a disaster, that I agree with, but that was a Qantas management initiative. It had its own management and staff as does all JQ airlines everywhere. Corporate management do not organise these types of approvals, the airlines themselves do. TT and VA are slightly different in that this operation is a conjoined twin at the moment, so who gets the approval ? etc....... But it appears that some lackey from TT may have sold this "charter thing" to management and they bought it. Now TT is in the poo, and they have dragged VA into it. As someone said, imagine if this had have been the other way around. We'd have had them strung up.

And no I'm not Ken. But we both can see the wood.

[Lookleft]

Sorry corporate management are very much involved in any decision like this as they sign off on it. Sure they don't do the actual leg work but they are not blind to what is being arranged. If you agree that Jetstar HK was a disaster you can't then state that the event that Virgin is going through would never happen to QF. Its the same attitude that "we" are smarter than "them".

[Icarus2001]

Likewise how many passengers flying on Cobham think they are on Qantas; just because Cobham paints its Boeing 717 jets with a Qantas logo?

Some major differences. The 717 jets belong to Qantas not Cobham. Every boarding pass shows it is a service operated by Cobham for Q. It is also painted on the hull near the door (or it was).

[ozaub]

According to wikipedia the Boeing 717s are owned by Cobham Aviation Services Australia, not Qantas.

[1977]

My weekly commute to Sydney on a Cobham 717 indicates that it is operated by National Jet for Qantas on my boarding pass. Go figure.

[Beer Baron]

According to wikipedia the Boeing 717s are owned by Cobham Aviation Services Australia, not Qantas.

Wikipedia is wrong. Consult the annual report. 717's are listed as QantasLink aircraft. 747 freighters and BAe146 freighters are specifically excluded as a wet lease.

As to the topic of the thread. I see some similarity in the troubles TT are having in Bali and the fate of JQ in HKG. In each case there was a dubious ownership structure designed to look like it complied with foreign/local ownership provisions and both carriers had got away with the ruse in the past or in other jurisdictions. But eventually someone declares that the emperor has no clothes and stops the airlines flaunting the rules.

JQ HKG was not a Hong Kong carrier and was blocked from operating. Tiger Aus is neither Australian nor Indonesian so can not be allowed to freely sell tickets to and from Bali.

Clever work arounds are great while they work but they may not work forever.

[LostProperty]

According to wikipedia the Boeing 717s are owned by Cobham Aviation Services Australia, not Qantas.

And according to the Australian Aircraft Register, Qantas Airways Ltd owns 15 of them, the other five are leased. All 20 are operated by National Jet Systems P/L which is Cobham.

[Lookleft]

And no I'm not Ken. But we both can see the wood.

As to the topic of the thread. I see some similarity in the troubles TT are having in Bali and the fate of JQ in HKG. In each case there was a dubious ownership structure designed to look like it complied with foreign/local ownership provisions and both carriers had got away with the ruse in the past or in other jurisdictions. But eventually someone declares that the emperor has no clothes and stops the airlines flaunting the rules.

JQ HKG was not a Hong Kong carrier and was blocked from operating. Tiger Aus is neither Australian nor Indonesian so can not be allowed to freely sell tickets to and from Bali.

We must be walking in the Reality National Park BB, as opposed to the others who are in the Kool Aid National Park and gulping huge quantities from the spring of spin.

[Icarus2001]

According to wikipedia How old are you? Too funny.

[illusion]

Wikipedia. Saw it on the internet. Must be true.......




Drop Bear - Australian Museum (http://australianmuseum.net.au/drop-bear)


:p

[Capn Bloggs]

It is also painted on the hull near the door (or it was).

How old are you? Too funny.

Survive a drop-on by 120kg? I doubt it! :}

[Icarus2001]

No Cookies | Herald Sun (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/holidaymakers-cant-buy-tigerair-flights-to-bali-for-three-months/news-story/5da21a9b7b932c58fd09f496b3740289)

So now flights are suspended until 25th March. Depending which line you believe, giving time for Tiger to meet "new" Indonesian requirements.

Whichever way you look at it, the travelling public would be forgiven for thinking that Tiger management struggle to play by the rules. I don't think they have forgotten the grounding of the entire airline.

[Brakerider]

Whichever way you look at it, the travelling public would be forgiven for thinking that Tiger management struggle to play by the rules. I don't think they have forgotten the grounding of the entire airline.

You're probably overthinking it. The bogans will pick whatever airfare is the cheapest at the time.

[chuboy]

Ehhh... it's taken a while for people to forget about Tiger's service in the early days. A lot of people I know haven't tried them since. Things were just starting to turn around before this happened, I really wonder what damage this will do in the long run. There's definitely an element of "fooled me once".

Having said that, the Indonesian government makes for an excellent scapegoat as the Bali bogans know as well as anyone how corrupt the authorities there can be - whether or not that has any relevance to the flight cancellations.

[arkmark]

This bogan won't fly tiger, not ever.

[wheels_down]

Something appears to be in the works.

737 VH-VUD flying MEL-ADL-MEL this arvo. Seemed to be some sort of proving flight.

[continueapproach737]

back to running on VA sched

[galdian]

I believe tigerair had been given approval to commence line training this week, whether with px or just proving flights no idea.

Understand that " X " % of required sectors or hours for training have already been completed in FFS operating on real time flight from B/off to B/in.

No idea status of application for B737 AOC.

cheers.

[Wunwing]

It would be interesting to know the legal position of those who are due to depart Australia for Bali in regard to their losses in hotel bookings, loss of holiday time etc. ? Its not like at this time of year you can just book somewhere else.

Normally there is not much can be done if a flight is cancelled but in this case, if it is proved that their is a regulations problem it may get expensive for Tiger/Virgin.

If it was my holidays ruined and there were grounds,I'd certainly want expenses and damages.

Wunwing

[Roj approved]

That's what travel insurance is for, go without at your peril��

[Icarus2001]

It would be interesting to know the legal positionIf you read the fine print that EVERYONE agrees to when they buy tickets on line you will see that they pretty much guarantee to do absolutely nothing.

https://www.virginaustralia.com/au/en/about-us/legal-policies/conditions-of-carriage/

11.1 We will use all reasonable endeavours to provide to you the mode of transport or services the subject of the Booking but, in circumstances beyond our
control, we may without notice substitute other means of transport or service.

11.5 We may need to cancel or delay and reschedule flights or services due to industrial action, landing restrictions, airport loading restrictions, unsuitable weather conditions, technical problems, operational reasons, or any event beyond our reasonable control, and scheduled flight times or destinations are not guaranteed. Subject to the consumer guarantees referred to in paragraph 2.4 and to the extent permitted by any applicable Laws, we are not liable for any Loss which you may incur as a result of any such delayed or rescheduled flight or service.

11.6 Compensation

If you suffer Loss as a result of Events Within Our Control, you may be compensated by us in accordance with our Customer Service Plan (when applicable) or Guest Compensation Policy.

These are from the VA website but most carriers are the same.

The interesting event a few years ago in Europe ws the volcanic ash cloud. If I remember correctly Ryanair would not refund passengers as they said it was "beyond their control" however the UK and EU have some robust passenger protections so they lost. Here it is...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2271423/Ryanair-WILL-pay-compensation-customers-stranded-volcanic-ash-cloud-rules-court.html

I am amazed at the lack of consumer protection for airline passengers in Australia compared to the EU, I guess that is the value of lobbyists.

[IsDon]

If you read the fine print that EVERYONE agrees to when they buy tickets on line you will see that they pretty much guarantee to do absolutely nothing.

https://www.virginaustralia.com/au/en/about-us/legal-policies/conditions-of-carriage/







These are from the VA website but most carriers are the same.

The interesting event a few years ago in Europe ws the volcanic ash cloud. If I remember correctly Ryanair would not refund passengers as they said it was "beyond their control" however the UK and EU have some robust passenger protections so they lost. Here it is...

Ryanair WILL have to pay compensation to customers stranded by volcanic ash cloud, rules court | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2271423/Ryanair-WILL-pay-compensation-customers-stranded-volcanic-ash-cloud-rules-court.html)

I am amazed at the lack of consumer protection for airline passengers in Australia compared to the EU, I guess that is the value of lobbyists.

One could argue that regulatory incompetence is not beyond Tigers control.

If they were doing their job they would have dotted all of the regulatory Is and crossed all the Ts before they sold any tickets. The fact is they didn't.

I agree, a volcano is beyond an airlines control. This mess isn't.

[Icarus2001]

Well since "we" as the general public do not really know why the Indonesian's decided to not allow the flights to continue we cannot know that there was any incompetence.

To prove incompetence a party would need to know exactly the terms of the objection by Indonesia and furthermore prove that VA/Tiger could/should have reasonably forseen that outcome. Then you have proved negligence. Good luck getting access to internal company documents.

As said above, that is why one purchases travel insurance.

[Eastwest Loco]

Decent Travel Insurance would cover this scenario.

Book an alternate carrier after making contact with them so everything is documented and go for it.

My Agency doesn't book Tiger unless totally stuck. Apologies to those good people who work for them but I can get myself into enough trouble without their help.

Best all

EWL

[The Bullwinkle]

Well since "we" as the general public do not really know why the Indonesian's decided to not allow the flights to continue we cannot know that there was any incompetence.
There was definitely incompetence!

[Wunwing]

"Decent Travel Insurance" doesn't cover anything beyond expenses? If this is a case of incompetence or negligence surely there should be damages for loss of a holiday since at this time of year it would be almost impossible to source other transport and accommodation?

Wunwing

[PoppaJo]

Approval given from 3rd Feb

A320s only.

Time to dust off those A320s parked up in the Alice.

[AerialPerspective]

Why don't Q go through this sorta crap? Why is it so hard to operate there?
Because Qantas is a real airline that doesn't make these sort of stupid mistakes. This is basic square one aviation law for anyone who's completed an aviation degree. Australia is a Contracting State so is Indonesia (to the Chicago Convention) and the rules about ownership, etc. and who operates the services are quite clear. Also, the entirety of Qantas is 51% or more Australian owned (actually around 55% at present I think) so this never comes up, nor with JQ who are 100% owned by Qantas. I don't want to get down on TT but unfortunately. when you look at the history with the grounding by CASA some years ago and other things that I'm aware of myself having worked for another operator who 'loaned' galley equipment to TT when they started, etc. it doesn't surprise me that there's a lack of 'i dotting' and 't crossing' potententially happening. I'm not on the inside so it's all speculation but it does seem consistent with past issues.

[morno]

Real airline?

Ohh the arrogance :rolleyes:

How do you not know that Indonesia was quite happy with the previous arrangement and then just decided one day that they want to change the rules?

[Airbus A320321]

Not sure the A320 will have the range to get to DPS from ymml.

[Bluewhine]

A320s to DPS why didn't they just do this from day one ? I thought the A320 didn't have the legs to get MEL-DPS (no tech knowledge here never flown an A320) I wouldn't be surprised if the TT 737 fleet plans are completely shelved now, as I don't think the planning goes much beyond the next f-up.
On the bright side I might just transfer over to TT in 2018 and get my free A320 endo.

[JDavola]

Real airline?

Ohh the arrogance :rolleyes:

How do you not know that Indonesia was quite happy with the previous arrangement and then just decided one day that they want to change the rules?

Morno, if you actually believe that, then can I suggest you switch the last two letters of your name.

[B772]

DPS nonstop from MEL, SYD or BNE in a A320 with a full load. I would like to see that !.

[PoppaJo]

MEL-DPS load restricted with Sharklets

[air command]

Bluewhine, you are obviously a little behind on events. Tiger got their first 737 up in their own right 2 days ago with proving flights, and the type on AOC is getting very close now. A number of Check & Trainers are in place. The 320's will not be renewed as leases expire. Last to go ( I think) is mid 2018. Better hurry if you want to fly one !

[porch monkey]

Christ there is some **** talked on this thread.:hmm:

[Icarus2001]

Christ there is some **** talked on this thread.

Christ there is some **** talked on Pprune.

I fixed it for you.


PS Imagine if only actual professional pilots could comment on here. On second thoughts it would be just the same. I am amazed every day in the flight deck what people will believe.

[Lookleft]

I am amazed every day in the flight deck what people will believe.

And the people who are sitting next to you are thinking exactly the same thing. :}

[Icarus2001]

And the people who are sitting next to you are thinking exactly the same thing.Unlikely, if I cannot see it with my own eyes I never believe it. There is a saying passed down from the previous generation...it's real when you can walk into the hangar and pee on the tyres...in regard to new types being introduced.

Now stop presuming to know what I say or think and get back to flight sim.

[Lookleft]

Wow hubris and hypocrisy all in the one post and the cherry on top is a presumption of monumental proportions. Well done.

[RAD_ALT_ALIVE]

B772,

I reckon a standard A320 could carry a 90% load on a 6 hour flight and still land with 3 to 4 tonne (just about enough for a tempo). Better yet in the Sharklet variety. Better again with the higher gross weight option. The need to carry tempo in winter would be diminished, but probably would be compensated for by a need for longer sector fuel due stronger headwinds, so nil practical difference.

Sure, it wouldn't be quite a full load, but it'd be pretty close.

With the optional auxilliary fuel tank (bringing the fuel capacity to almost exactly that of the B738) it would be a no-brainer.

And TT are not doing SYD or BNE to DPS. JQ already to ADL and PER in the A320, so those sectors are no issue.

[GA Driver]

Not sure where you get those numbers from, but I'd say they're optimistic. Never seen any 'aux' tanks for a 320, but not sure it would help anyway due weight issues.

Couple of facts:

77t MTOW
18.7t (max fuel)
58.3t left over....
45t operating empty weight.
13.3t left over for whatever you want to fill it with.....
No idea what TT standard pax weight is but 82 seems to be the going rate with 14 kg bag per pax.
Me thinks around 139 seats on a 180 seat aircraft. 77% capacity

Fuel. 18.7 max
-1.3 fixed
-1.0 variable
16.4 left.
Burn 2.4t per/hour(absolute BEST case) = 6.8hrs range in nil wind
A bit 'toit' with any holding in Bali or wx north of AS!
So on paper it's doable, but not really set up for this run in seat numbers or fuel capacity.

Not sure the sharklets do 4/5th's of F$&k all for any fuel savings, but they do look keeeewl.

[BPA]

The A320 ops to DPS are short term only (perhaps 1-2 months), until Tiger has approval for the B737. Tiger's first B737 to be added to their AOC has been undergoing crew training this week and once they have the B737 on the AOC another 2-3 will be transferred rather quickly from Virgin to Tiger.

So although the A320 is not the ideal option and may require capping the pax or a tech stop in Darwin, it gets them back in the market. The bogans that fly to DPS will forget the last few weeks once Tiger offers a sale to DPS when the A320 starts.

[GA Driver]

So the burning question, was there ever any intention to put the 737 on the tiger aoc or has this just forced their hand?

[chookcooker]

So the burning question, was there ever any intention to put the 737 on the tiger aoc or has this just forced their hand?

Maybe the whole ASX announcement 6 months ago saying they were replacing all a320s with 737s was a bit of a hint?

[GA Driver]

I worded that poorly. I meant was there any intention to put the existing 737's on the Tiger aoc until the replacement started? The announcement was 6 months ago, haven't seen a replacement a/c yet, hence the original question had this just forced their hand?

[PoppaJo]

Simple reason behind the lack of replacements is because they are behind schedule.

It was meant to happen 2 months ago but got delayed further. Domestic 737 was due to start late November.

Tiger will have a net increase in aircraft once all A320s have been replaced, +3 Bali Machines.

Looks like they are fighting to get 737 Domestic up and going before the A320s go to Bali otherwise it's going to screw the Domestic schedule.

[B772]

My reading of the situation is not looking rosy for Tiger. I believe the costs will have a serious impact on the Virgin financial position. Expect an ASX announcement soon.

[The Bullwinkle]

Expect an ASX announcement soon.
Hopefully announcing a new CEO.

[Snakecharma]

I heard a story that this may well be the case Bullwinkle! The current one has been missing in action for a little while.

[downdata]

Hopefully announcing a new CEO.

... for VA

[The Bullwinkle]

.... for VA
That's what I meant! :ok:

[Ken Borough]

Hopefully announcing a new CEO

.....James Hogan? :} .

[BPA]

From Australian Aviation

Etihad?s James Hogan to depart in second half of 2017 | Australian Aviation (http://australianaviation.com.au/2017/01/etihads-james-hogan-to-depart-in-second-half-of-2017/)

[The Bullwinkle]

Maybe they'll both go to Woolworths...........As trolley boys!

[Lookleft]

If you read that article again you would notice that James Hogan already has another job. He is going to much higher levels of executive management rather than taking a step backwards to run a small Australian airline.

[Berealgetreal]

Masters. Or, retire as a multimillionaire.

Happy days.

[falconx]

always more than meets the eye

[Turnleft080]

Still grounded.

[Icarus2001]

No flights to Bali AGAIN.

You could not make this stuff up...

https://au.news.yahoo.com/a/34330137/tigerair-cancels-all-flights-to-bali-again/#page1

Tiger cancels flights to Bali again (http://www.skynews.com.au/news/top-stories/2017/02/03/tiger-cancels-flights-to-bali-again.html)

Perhaps it is time for the trade regulator to look into whether the airline is breaching trade laws by selling a service that is not available.

[SOPS]

Breaking news here on the radio...Tiger is pulling out of Bali permanently.

[Falling Leaf]

Yep. What's next....Tiger to keep operating the A320....

[Falling Leaf]

Jb said publicly last year that every CEO needed a scapegoat, and that Rob Sharp was it. To his face JB said RS had to make Bali work.

[Icarus2001]

Can you back those up with quotes somewhere Falling Leaf?

[morno]

Icarus,
Every airline sells tickets to destinations they're not approved to fly to. Ever noticed the small print when a new destination is announced? "Subject to regulatory approval"?

No different at all.

morno

[LostProperty]

Tigerair dumps flights from Australia to Bali, blames Indonesia - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-02-03/tigerair-dumps-australia-to-bali-flights-permanently/8239064)

[libbyj]

Extraordinary that Indonesia, with its exemplary safety record, does not recognise an AOC issued by CASA.

[Icarus2001]

No different at all.
Well of course you are entitled to an opinion but I disagree.

When I was Chief Pilot of a charter operation I asked the FOI from CASA if I could advertise a particular service before the approval (for this particular operation) was received from head office. He said no. When I used your "subject to regulatory approval" line as seen occasionally. He said no that was not legal either but they did not have the time (or inclination) to fight the big operations but if I tried it we would be in a world of pain.

Secondly, when setting up a new operation maybe this is valid, from a CASA point of view. In this case the company has been caught out not complying (apparently).
Forget CASA compliance, I am talking about CONSUMER protection, Fair Trading ACCC etc. Selling tickets for a service where no reasonable expection could be made of the service being provided.

In my humble opinion there is a case to be made.

[Oakape]

Extraordinary that Indonesia, with its exemplary safety record, does not recognise an AOC issued by CASA.


There is no money in that!

[morno]

I think you're clutching at straws there Icarus.

And Tiger sold tickets on the basis that they were going to have the necessary approvals by recommencement date. So you'd be hard pushed to try and say they were selling tickets knowing that there was no chance they were going to be able to operate the service.

I feel sorry for all the people who have worked their asses off trying to get this thing up and running in such a short period of time. With nothing said by casa on the Australian end, you can only assume that there was no problem as far as they were concerned, just the Indonesians playing games.

morno

[Icarus2001]

you can only assume that there was no problem as far as they were concerned, just the Indonesians playing games.

I agree. CASA has said nothing, probably all good there (this time).

Why do you assume it is the Indonesians "playing games", do you have information or just your cultural bias against "foreigners"?

Is it possible Tiger were "playing games"?

[PoppaJo]

Tiger have not been selling tickets since the initial grounding last month

They were removed from sale immediately

[morno]

I agree. CASA has said nothing, probably all good there (this time).

Why do you assume it is the Indonesians "playing games", do you have information or just your cultural bias against "foreigners"?

Is it possible Tiger were "playing games"?

Simply an observation Icarus. Why was what Tiger were doing considered acceptable until recently and then given the go ahead to resume services only to have the carpet pulled out at the last minute?

You can't tell me the Indonesians weren't aware of what was happening.

And no cultural bias at all. It could be the Kiwis doing this and I'd still refer to it in the same way.

[porch monkey]

Unfortunately, you need to look a little more "inwardly" for the real culprits.

[Icarus2001]

Why was what Tiger were doing considered acceptable until recently

How do you know they were not "on a warning" from DGCA? To fix the issue. You know just like they were told multiple times by CASA to fix issues, they failed to do that and were grounded as a result. I know that was under the UK wunderkind who was dumped but perhaps there is a poor culture remaining? Who knows?

I know that blaming DGCA is very easy.

[Bluewhine]

So you can go from Port Headland to DPS but you can't get there on any part of the VA group from MEL or ADL now.
What a bunch of w****rs, champions of better my arse.

[arkmark]

It's really quite simple. Virgin & Tiger as a group approached the Indonesian regulator with utter disrespect. They showed the same disrespect to their clients. Karma has bitten them on the arse for being so arrogant as to attempt to run one airline on another airlines approval in the first place. After that they clearly didn't show any reasonable attempt to operate within Indonesian regulation, build relationships, and fix their mistakes, so Indonesia kicked em out, as well they should have. Now it's time for a new CEO as clearly this one has not a bloody clue. Even if VA began flying these sectors again, I wouldn't fly with them again.

[Icarus2001]

Grounding...DGCA.....Blame CASA.....This thread is interesting...

Really where is anyone blaming CASA?

Either VA/TT or DGCA, take your pick.

[jetjockey696]

Australia's Tigerair abruptly quits Bali flights after Indonesia ruling | Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-australia-indonesia-tigerair-idUSKBN15I091)

[Icarus2001]

Really where is anyone blaming CASA?
You mentioned it...
I hope you can read and understand an OM better than a post on PPRUNE.

[topend3]

GT was on the news tonight proclaiming a Tiger as the innocent victims in all of this....like he would F know....

[The Green Goblin]

So lion air is about to launch the routes?

[IsDon]

GT was on the news tonight proclaiming a Tiger as the innocent victims in all of this....like he would F know....

Why would he say that?

Tiger doesn't have a Chairmans' Lounge.

[Berealgetreal]

Upbeat article in today's Australian a must read!

[Team America]

Tiger have been operating under a charter licence to DPS. Haven't been able to get their c..p in a pile (or show they were nearly there) before the expiration date of that charter licence.

Every other airline operating into DPS seems to be able to meet the requirements so the Indo's said no to Tiger continuing.

Simple.

[Octane]

My information is that the whole mess/ debacle is due to incompetence this end, nothing to do with the Indonesians. Also, Virgin will not be resuming services in place of Tiger.
It's over....
Wonder if heads will roll? They should...

[PPRuNeUser0161]

Yes the whole VAH thing is turning to crap. Share price dropping like a stone, earnings per share less than 1 cent, off the clock debt that just keeps rising and no prospect of a dividend. All at a time when oil price is very low. Something has to give, the shareholders deserve better!

JB should resign for a start and probably the chairman as well. Do a clean out of management, possibly downsize the mainline operation, simplify the fleet etc. The big investors might have deep pockets but eventually the numbers just won't add up anymore, and that time is getting closer.

SN

[PoppaJo]

Tiger publically shot down the DGCA from the get go, they were very vocal about how they were innocent and the Indonesians were just being corrupt as ever.

Having lived and flown there for 5 years, rule number 1.. Don't disrespect them. Otherwise they will make your miserable.

Australia made life hard for AirAsia when they attempted to commence operations from Bali a year before this Tiger stuff happend. Tit for Tat. Brings back memories.

[Mach2point7]

Rob Sharp is quoted in The Australian today: "But I can talk about principles I have brought into this business. Customer number one, number one, number one. They pay your bills."

Virgin Australia owns the 737-800s concerned, has an AOC clearly acceptable to the Indonesian authorities (currently operating other sectors e.g. BNE-DPS) and could provide an interim customer focused solution for the booked pax. Yet they seem happy to sit back and watch their subsidiary trash its customer brand. Yet again !

[Icarus2001]

Tiger publically shot down the DGCA from the get go, they were very vocal about how they were innocent and the Indonesians were just being corrupt as ever.

Of course because they employ people to "manage the message" from the outset.

A little bit like if a shipping or oil company has a massive spill. The FIRST organisation they call is a PUBLIC RELATIONS firm to control the media and manage the message. To them this is the most important part of managing any "crisis", protect reputation and shareholder value in the longer term.

[B772]

VAH dug a huge hole for themselves a number of years ago and they are struggling to get out of it.

Debt to equity ratio is 333.8%. In June of 2007 it was 113.8%

Net gearing is 208.7%. In June of 2007 it was 19.2%

NTA backing per share is 8c. In June of 2007 it was 67c

The current balance sheet looks sick.

I suspect they will need more shareholder funds by 30 June 17.

[PPRuNeUser0161]

I would like to know who is actually getting rich out of this outfit. The company pulls on more and more debt at a time when its relatively easy to make money in Australian airlines. Questions need to be asked like who owns or has an interest the company's that lease services and equipment to VA? Someone must be making money somewhere because it shouldn't be this bad. It looks like a pseudo private equity arrangement.

QF is in profit and that show certainly isn't all that efficient.

SN

[PoppaJo]

From what I understand Tiger were trying to fly RPT on a Charter AOC. Why? If they have an Australian RPT AOC why can't they get an Indo one, and why mess around with pseudo Charter/RPT?

Because the Tiger AOC does not have 737 on it. They didn't have the A320 capacity to put the Airbus into Bali, not to mention it couldn't do Melbourne, only Adelaide and Perth. Getting more A320s for Bali was pointless as it was going to be phased out hence the quick grab on those three Virgin 737s.

[Icarus2001]

From what I understand Tiger were trying to fly RPT on a Charter AOC. Why? If they have an Australian RPT AOC...

...to be able to use VAI procedures because it's on the VAI AOC, with VAI pilots.

Someone is right I guess?

Each port on an RPT AOC is authorised, charter not so.

[Bug Smasher Smasher]

... its relatively easy to make money in Australian airlines.
Hahahahaha!

[wheels_down]

'Runway Maintenance'. :ugh:

Singapore Airlines postpones Sydney-Jakarta-Singpore service | Australian Aviation (http://australianaviation.com.au/2016/11/singapore-airlines-postpones-sydney-jakarta-singpore-service/)

[porch monkey]

As I mentioned a number of posts back. Look closer to home. Octane is on the money. The Indos have simply honoured the original agreement, WITHOUT extensions. Make of that what you will...........

[AerialPerspective]

The whole Bali thing has been a fiasco since the decision to operate it under a separate AOC, a decision that has never been explained well enough to make me understand the reasons behind it in the first place.

When VA pilots began operating old VA 737's in Tiger livery as part of the Tiger operation under the VAI AOC (:ugh::ugh::ugh:), something like this was always bound to happen.

We have been told very little other than what has occurred has done so as a result of the Indonesian Government imposing new administrative requirements. Take that to mean whatever you like, but the mind certainly does boggle.
So true, but it highlights the gross incompetence of that entire group... the wunderkind who the media couldn't get enough of some years ago has been there 6-7 years now and you can track it by the losses and the reduction of the shares down to mere cents of value. There are supposedly a number of leading airlines owning this complete excuse for an airline group and they sit back and do nothing (other than Air NZ who bailed, no coincidence that they are seen as one of the world's best) yet the others sit there and pump in billions while superman (who's not so super in the media anymore0 explains one disastrous result after the other on 'difficult' or 'depressed' trading conditions). When and what does this bloke have to do to get sacked??? They are in serious need of someone who actually knows what they are doing to come in and they should start by purging all the people who jockey for position and know nothing out the door and actually employing people who know how to run an airline business, including how to mount international operations. JQ did this in 2006 in about 5 months on it's own with no assistance from QF other than the leased A330s and it opened up 5-6 international ports within weeks of each other. VA can't even organise a TT operation to DPS without it being a total debacle. The mind boggles and the head shakes...

[AerialPerspective]

Why don't Q go through this sorta crap? Why is it so hard to operate there?
It's not hard to operate there. I spent quite a while in DPS and CGK at various times. QF don't go through this because they know what the hell they're doing. They don't have amateurs running around barely a day out of University or even High School clutching at straws to try and work out how to do these things. QF on the other hand have people with years of experience and a lot of organisational memory and expertise at how to do this. If this doesn't see the end of the current senior management in VA goodness knows what will... 6 years now with no profit approximately, share price down to mere cents. What exactly is the purpose of this organisation??? It certainly doesn't appear to be anything to do with providing a return on investors funds or meeting the needs of the market.

[Bug Smasher Smasher]

JQ did this in 2006 in about 5 months on it's own with no assistance from QF other than the leased A330s...
Bwaahahahahaha! You guys are hilarious today. Are you professional comedians or just on really good gear?

[Oakape]

They don't have amateurs running around barely a day out of University or even High School clutching at straws to try and work out how to do these things. QF on the other hand have people with years of experience and a lot of organisational memory and expertise at how to do this.
Exactly! People these days don't value experience, including the new brand of management. It is just seen as an extra cost to keep higher paid, experienced people on the payroll. It is also seen as an embarrassment to have the experienced nobodies telling the inexperienced somebodies that their great idea is actually crap.

[Ken Borough]

JQ did this in 2006 in about 5 months on it's own with no assistance from QF other than the leased A330s and it opened up 5-6 international ports within weeks of each other.]JQ aren't the only carrier to succeed in short tine and get things right. So too did Australian Airlines (AO) in 2002 who had a small team of seconded people from Qantas who I believe knew what they were doing. From memory, AO served three points in Japan, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Bali and Singapore from the get-go without any (reported) hassles.

As an aside. it's easy to see/understand why a certain wonder-kid didn't get the top gig at Qantas!

[Icarus2001]

Virgin Australia reports profit decline | Australian Aviation (http://australianaviation.com.au/2017/02/virgin-australia-reports-profit-decline/)

[B772]

I have been told there is an announcement of some description to be made on Friday 17 Feb. I hope it is not one of those 5pm announcements. Put it in your diary.

[The Bullwinkle]

I have been told there is an announcement of some description to be made on Friday 17 Feb. I hope it is not one of those 5pm announcements. Put it in your diary.
Let's hope it's the long awaited "changing of the guard".
JT to replace JB? He couldn't be any worse!

[virginexcess]

To be objective, I doubt the share price is any measure at all of Virgin's actual value. There are so few shares held by the public that everytime Mrs Smith down the road sells the 500 shares her husband left her in his estate, because she just got f%*@ed over by Tiger, the shareprice probably drops 10% as they scramble to find "the greater fool" to buy them.

[porch monkey]

17 Feb is when the company does it's formal half yearly results. So yeah, there'll be announcements.:rolleyes:

[Mach2point7]

There is an excellent article in the aviation section of today's "The Australian" about Tiger and VA's mismanagement of the DPS debacle. "A Tigerair spokeswoman declined to say why the airline would not grant an interview with The Australian to discuss its handling of the crisis."

[wheels_down]

People need to sacked over the handling of this, starting with Rob Sharp, Borghetti shouldn't be far behind. Who cares if it was Tiger's fault or not, the passengers don't, just get them there!

Virgin should have reacted almost instantly operating the same flights on their own metal until Tiger could get itself sorted.

Why the hell didn't that happen? In these sort of situations this is what all well run airlines do, readjust the network temporarily to get aircraft available to cover your arse.

What's worse is they operated rescue flights from Bali to Brisbane, then pushed pax onto connecting flights around the country. Tiger doesn't even fly direct Bali to Brisbane, couldn't even get them back home direct.