CPL+IR = ATPL ?

[Hueyman]

Hi there,

Here is a plain and simple question...

Some ATOs told me it's stupid to attend CPL and IR theory exams, as it leads to ATPL.

Does this mean it's the same program, or that a CPL-IR worth an ATPL ?

Thanks for clarification !

Part FCL and Aircrew weren't very exhaustive on that...

[Tinstaafl]

Not quite.

Under UK/JAR/EASA: CPL theory is a subset of ATPL stuff, as is IR. However there are still knowledge areas in ATPL that are not part of either CPL or IR.

So, ATPL exams will cover CPL & IR exams, however even the combination of CPL + IR exams doesn't cover all that the ATPL syllabus covers.

[paco]

If you hold a CPL/IR and want to upgrade to ATPL later, you need to take around 12 exams.

[Hueyman]

Okay, thanks for your reply

[rudestuff]

I'll try to add some clarification..

If you want a CPL/IR you have 2 choices for exams.

1: CPL and IR exams. These will lead to CPL/IR *BUT* if you later want to upgrade to ATPL you will still have to do all ATPL exams (minus a few easy ones)

2: Go straight for the ATPL exams (there is not much difference) - these can be used in lieu of the CPL exams (and PPL exams as well in my case!) - once you have a CPL/IR the exams remain valid for 7 years for the ATPL

You have to learn a LOT of nonsense, most of which you will forget 2-3 years later when it's time to upgrade so you really don't want to do the whole thing twice. In addition - very few people take the CPL exams - which means there is much more support for ATPL exams anyway!

[Smokie]

ATPL - IR = CPL so don't let it lapse ;-)

[paco]

Not only that, there are less questions in CPL exams so wrong answers have a higher percentage effect.

[Hueyman]

Hi there !

Thanks for the clarifications...

I'm already CPL/IR and know all that, I was just asking myself this question as someone told me this... but obviously it's untrue

[Hueyman]

Hi there,

I'm back 6 months later with other questions. I don't have a " typical " background like most young pilots here have : fATPL then no job.

I prioritized Flight Hours over theoretical syllabusses as one is much harder to gain than the other, but eventually you'll need both for sure.

I'm now dual rated, CPL(H) currently working in the Helicopter industry, with IR syls and CPL(A) theory only with PPL(A) practical and lot of single turboprop time. The goal is to be full ATPL(A) & H soon.

I've heard a while ago that FCL stipulated some kind of " bridges " for experienced CPL IRs to upgrade to ATPL ( in a theoretical syllabusses PoV ) avoiding them to loose one year of flight due to the useless ground classes.

Any of you have heard of that ?

[paco]

No. Exams all the way. If you have CPL(H) TK, it will be 14 exams again, unless you have an Amendment 3 licence*, but that would have been pre 2009 or thereabouts. If you have CPL(H) + IR, it will be 12 exams.

*A CPL(H) taken under Amendment 3 morphed into the ATPL(H) VFR (because the upgrade was only hours), so it would then only be 4 exams to upgrade to the full ATPL(H) + IR. The CPL(A) has always been a very much lower academic standard so no help there.

[Hueyman]

Mmm okay thanks for this ... unwanted reply Paco ;)

What does " amendment 3 " means ? Pre 2009 CPL IRs ?

[paco]

JAR FCL Amendment 3 - when Amendment 6 came in it converted the old CPL(H) into the ATPL(H) VFR, so you could still fly heavy iron in mountains without needing an IR and created a new CPL(H) to the same standard as the fixed wing one. As a rule of thumb, if you did 9 exams, you have the old one. From our website:

After the introduction of the new reduced CPL(H) theory course, the combination no longer equates to ATPL(H) theory. To gain the ATPL(H) with IR if you have a post-Amendment 3 JAA/EASA CPL(H), you must take 12 exams out of the 14 required - you will be exempt POF(H) and VFR Comms. If you just want the ATPL(H), you are exempt air law as well.

However, in JAR Amendment 6 (10) "the holder of a CPL(H) gained under previous amendments of JAR-FCL 2 up to and including Amendment 3 is credited with the theoretical knowledge requirements for ATPL(H)." It is our opinion that, if you have a CPL(H) issued under JAR FCL Amendment 3, that is the equivalent of the ATPL(H)(VFR) in terms of theoretical knowledge - paragraph 2.050(b)(10) refers. This credit was carried over into Part FCL. In addition, Article 4(1) of Commission Regulation (EU) 1178/2011 refers to JAR compliant licences being deemed to be Part FCL licences. The legal definition of "JAR Compliant" licence is in Article 2, which refers to licences, ratings, certificates, authorisations and other qualifications issued or recognised by a State, reflecting "JAR and procedures". We interpret this to include ATPL(H) TK credit.

Since the introduction of the ATPL(H)(VFR), the IR(H) and the ATPL(H) theory have their own validity period from the day the exams are successfully completed - 36 months for the CPL(H) and IR(H) and 7 years from the last validity of an IR entered in the licence, or a helicopter type rating (for helicopters). The ATPL(H) requires 550 hours within 18 months (also the IR), but the ATPL(H)/IR requires 650 hours, although there is no time limit to finish the course.

[Hueyman]

:mad: I did not understand 20% you said, it's very interesting though.

I will have to re-read it several times and researches each items to deeply understand what's going on behind this mess.

Just a simple question : Do the people who create this nonsense are actual Airmen/women ?

[paco]

Of course not! The only country that sent aviators to the initial JAA meetings was the UK.

The only bridging available is from like licences, like ATPH to ATPLA and back, but you can unofficially do from ATP to CPL.

So, if you have the old licence, first upgrade it with a paperwork exercise to the ATPL VFR, then do the IR exams for the full thing, if you haven't already done that (you mention CPL + IR syls). Then bridge to ATPLA with 5 exams, 60% of which is the same stuff anyway. The UK is unique in allowing you to bridge the exams only, without having the full licence.

[Hueyman]

Thank you very much for your input Paco, much appreciated.

Okay, so, to sum things up, I have currently French EASA :

- CPL(H) Practical
- IR(A)/(H) syls only
- Did the 5 UVs to get my CPL(A) theory - syls
- PPL(A)

All my stuff is post 2009

What should I do to have ATPL(A) & (H) theories ? Is it possible in the UK to upgrade my current CPL(H) IR to the ATPL(H) VFR with the paperwork stuff, then upgrade it to the full thing with IR ( err.. already did IR in the CPL which is according to everyone, the same as ATPL ), then finally bridge the ATPL(H) to ATPL(A) with the 5 fixed wing specific UVs ?

That would be much better than studying and attending the whole 17 exams ( 12 ATP + 5 FW/RW specific )

[paco]

If your stuff is post 2009, probably not but you might be lucky - the only way to find out is ask the people who supplied your licence. if not, it looks like the 12 exams....