Lufthansa Junkers

[Leica]

Going through old photos/negatives of my father I found four to do with planes.

They were all taken in England or Scotland.

Possibly pre WWWII

I would like to know
where and when they were taken.
are they historically important or shall I throw them away

One is front of a Junkers ?52
One is KLM Douglas
One a swastika, possibly on the tail of the Junkers
One is from the air in a bi plane.

Any suggestions?

[treadigraph]

Yes, Junkers 52 with a swastika, certainly 1930s if taken in UK.

Are you able to share the other two?

[DaveReidUK]

Lufthansa served Croydon with their Ju-52s pre-war, as did KLM with their DC-2s, so the photos may well have been taken there.

Heston did get the occasional diversion, so that's a possibility, too.

[Planemike]

I would like to know where and when they were taken.
Are they historically important or shall I throw them away


Leica..... Welcome to the forum,


Probably not historically significant but do not throw them away. There will always be somebody out there who will find them interesting and maybe important to their research or a good addition to their collection.

[Leica]

Thanks for the information. As a complete non plane person I wasn't sure if this site was appropriate. I feel quite proud of working out they were a Junkers 52 and a Douglas DC2.

I did think Croydon maybe. Pre-war as Luftahansa post war didn't use Junkers (I think).

Easy to say don't throw them but I am having a clear out and am getting rid of everything non essential.

Other two attached. Somebody may be identify the ground in the one from the air (or even the plane).

Again, many thanks for your time.

[treadigraph]

Leica, fourth pic is taken from a de Havilland DH-84 Dragon flying over Croydon Airport - just a mile from me right now! The control tower/terminal building is very distinctive, now an office block and museum. Purley Way playing fields beyond and the ridge is Croham Hurst.

Great pics, thank you!

[DaveReidUK]

As a postscript, DC-2 "Djalak" (PH-ALD) was destroyed in a Luftwaffe raid on Schiphol in May 1940.

[washoutt]

Djalak is the Indonesian Sparrow.

[Jhieminga]

All the pre-war KLM aircraft were named after birds and the last letter of the registration was to be the same as the first letter of the species. They had to get a bit creative for some aircraft. I think that 'Duif' (Dutch for dove) was already taken.

[A30yoyo]

The background to the KLM DC-2 could be the Stafford Road Croydon houses on the right and the Woodcote area to the left, looking Westwards....looks a little larger and flatter than Croydon but could be a wide-angle lens effect

[treadigraph]

I reckon they were all taken at Croydon.

[Leica]

You have all been fantastic. Thank you.

I have contacted Croydon Airport Society and they would like the negatives for their archives. We are going up to their open day on 8 January to hand them over.

Again, thanks.

I shall now return to trying to identify his 1935 photos of London buildings, most of which no longer exist.

[WHBM]

Treaders : Do you think the photo of the Junkers nose has just got the north end of the Croydon terminal building creeping in to the picture. My guess is that they were all taken at the same time, and three of them from pretty much the same point.

The flight in the DH84 Dragon could likely be one of the 5/10 minute "joyrides" that were popular there at weekends (when the number of such passengers probably surpassed those on regular flights). There were several operators based there who would get involved. As the photos were taken "airside" they may have been shot while being taken to/from the joyriding aircraft.

Leica : Oh, well done for spotting Djalak was a DC2 and not the more ubiquitous successor, the DC3. It was delivered in April 1936 so I would guess the photos were from one of the summers 1936-39, possibly one of the later years as the DC2s were initially bought for the long flights from Amsterdam to what is now Jakarta, Indonesia, and on to Sydney, but were bumped down to local European runs by KLMs later and larger DC3, which came on line from 1937 onward.

If you meet Dr Frank Anderson, from the aviation society, at Croydon tomorrow, do give him our best regards - a number posting in this thread had a meet-up there a while ago and plagued poor Dr Frank with excessively detailed questions, and then even worse answered them before he could get a word in edgeways :)

[treadigraph]

WHBM, I'd agree!

Leica, well done, thanks, and have a great day tomorrow. Likewise, regards to Dr Anderson.

:ok:

[India Four Two]

All the pre-war KLM aircraft were named after birds and the last letter of the registration was to be the same as the first letter of the species.

Jhieminga,

Thanks, I didn't know that. I had wondered why they had chosen an Indonesian bird's name. I have done quite a bit of research into the PH-ALU Uiver (Stork) crash at Rutbah Wells, but I never made the connection between the registration and the name!

[WHBM]

KLM pre-war US-built fleet with names and delivery date

[DaveReidUK]

KLM pre-war US-built fleet with names and delivery date

Fascinating stuff, thanks for that.

DC-3 PH-ALM "Nanoe" (Rhea) should of course be PH-ALN.

[joy ride]

Interesting thread and a great result for the photos.

Does anyone know if the unusual Junkers G.38 ever sported Swastikas on its visits to Croydon? I cannot find any clear photos to suggest that after a quick look on Google.

[one11]

Evidence of Ju G38 at Croydon in Nazi colours - from Wonders of World Aviation 193?

http://i637.photobucket.com/albums/uu98/viscount700/g38_zps7kbhrlq2.jpg[/URL]

[Jhieminga]

KLM pre-war US-built fleet with names and delivery date
And PH-AKJ's name was 'Jan van Gent' which is the Dutch name for a Gannet. This is a good list and shows that both Indonesian birds and Dutch birds were used. For completeness a list like this should go further back as the practice started on the earlier Fokkers, which is where some of the more common birdnames were utilised (such as "Pelikaan" (Pelican) on a Fokker F.XVIII, they obviously had to dig deeper for the later Ps but also reused this same name on a DC-3!).

An interesting, slightly related, anecdote is linked to PH-AIO, a Fokker F.XVIII named "Oehoe" (Eagle Owl). This aircraft was flown to Curacao to be used in the KLM West Indies service and had to be renamed "Oriole" as the Eagle Owl is considered an unlucky bird in the local culture.

[Leica]

Fascinating Day at Croydon, in spite of a screaming kid. Sorry, I only access emails and internet via desk top computer and I didn't turn it on before we left so didn't see the greetings for Dr Anderson.

Photos handed over into their collection.

Photo of Djalak on the wall which was quite exciting. I was able to explain its name and add that it had been destroyed in 1940. Thank you for those little snippets. Also a photo of a Ju 52 along side a DC3. Some really wonderful photos there.

We were told about Pilot Officer Prune, a cartoon character who popped up in odd places. Is that where the name of the forum comes from?

I still have no idea when my Dad was there or why although it did strike me that as he was a radio boff - went on to radar pre and post war - it might have been to do with the radio. It may, of course, just been a jolly day out.

[WHBM]

DC-3 PH-ALM "Nanoe" (Rhea) should of course be PH-ALN.All those bird names in Dutch and there's a typo in the registration latters ! :)

[India Four Two]

I have done quite a bit of research into the PH-ALU Uiver (Stork) crash at Rutbah Wells

Me too! :\

It should of course be PH-AIU.

[Jhieminga]

Make that PH-AJU ;)
https://c4.staticflickr.com/1/320/32116823971_8461e302d8_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/QW47Qk)
DSC_1548_resize (https://flic.kr/p/QW47Qk) by Jelle Hieminga (https://www.flickr.com/photos/102686263@N02/), on Flickr (The 'J' is just visible under the left wing)

[Chris Scott]

Quote from treadigraph:
"Leica, fourth pic is taken from a de Havilland DH-84 Dragon flying over Croydon Airport"

Croydon Airport? Would that be "Roundshaw Downs"? :ugh:

[WHBM]

Make that PH-AJUThis, by the way, is not the original "Uiver", which crashed in Iraq en route to Jakarta within months of introduction (in fact before their second aircraft was delivered), but another DC2, originally with the US military. It's at a museum in the Netherlands nowadays, on the original Uiver registration.

[treadigraph]

It's still Croydon Airport to me!

[joy ride]

One11, many thanks for the great photo and answering my question, I think I might have seen that or a similar photo of a G.38 before.
D-APIS, Apis being Latin for Bee. My Dad's old College had small so men could have pictures of a bee in each urinal, at the correct "aiming point" to avoid splashes. A p*** on Apis!

[DaveReidUK]

This, by the way, is not the original "Uiver", which crashed in Iraq en route to Jakarta within months of introduction (in fact before their second aircraft was delivered), but another DC2, originally with the US military. It's at a museum in the Netherlands nowadays, on the original Uiver registration.

Some background and more nice photos of the "fake" Uiver here: Douglas DC-2-142 - NC39165 - Flying Legends - Touchdown Aviation (http://www.touchdown-aviation.com/flying-legends/plane/friends-of-the-aviodrome/douglas-dc-2-142-nc39165.php)

[Leica]

My last post seems to have got lost.

We went to Croydon and had a wonderful day. Unfortunately I didn't read the posts about Dr Anderson before we went.

The photos were handed over to the Archivist Peter Skinner. So Planemike I hope that meets with your approval. Having seen the wonderful photos at Croydon I am surprised they wanted my Dad's, but I am happy. There is a great photo of Djalak on a wall.

If as WHBM suggests Dad was then between 1937 and 1938 it may not have been a day out. He was a radio boff who then started working on radar before the war. Does anybody know if Croydon was involved in anyway with radar experiments? All official secrets so I never knew what he did.

We were told about Pilot Officer Prune. Is that where this forum gets its name?

[DaveReidUK]

We were told about Pilot Officer Prune. Is that where this forum gets its name?

AFAIK there's no connection. It's just a convenient, pronounceable acronym for Professional Pilots' Rumour Network.

As an aside, I recall my late father having a pile of Tee Emms from his time in the FAA. I wish I knew what had happened to them.

[treadigraph]

Leica, glad you had a good day.

I believe there was some kind of radar development work undertaken by the Navy at my old school, King Edwards at Witley in Surrey, during the war. Wonder if he was based there?

[WHBM]

Does anybody know if Croydon was involved in anyway with radar experiments?Leica, if you recall, up in the control tower at Croydon is the radio room, which was behind some glass. Normally you just get to look through but when Dr A showed us lot round, because we supposedly know what we are doing ( :uhoh: ) it was unlocked and we had a good look at the kit. I recall him saying that the original valve "electronics" could still be started up, that they do that very occasionally, and some of the radio kit in there I got the impression was pre-war, still serviceable when the airport closed in 1960.


Radar pre-war required substantial masts, not the little scanner spinning round of nowadays, but one of the recipients of any information would have been Croydon. Cluetts' book "Croydon Airport the Great Days 1928-39" may have a mention, he covered pretty much every happening. Somebody here (Treadders ?) must have it to hand - mine's archived somewhere up in the loft.

[Leica]

WHBM and treadigraph:

Yes he was at Witley. Then they (ASRE or whatever it was called at the time) moved down to Portsdown Hill and then he "changed jobs" in the 1960s and went to Oceanography which was back at Witley. Now Oceanography is in Southampton and King Edwards has the building back. I have a recording he made of a nightingale that used to sing in the woods there.


The valves were mentioned during our tour and they were surprised that we knew about them. I had loads to get rid of when Dad died. Can't remember where they went but I know I didn't chuck them. I still use a Quad 303 amp.

Unfortunately, as somebody I knew in my childhood has said, "Daddy went to work and Daddy came home. We never knew what he did in between". So much social history has been lost due to the Official Secrets.

[India Four Two]

Make that PH-AJU http://cdn.pprune.org/images/smilies/wink2.gifJhieminga,

How embarrassing. Wrong twice. My only excuse is it's been a while since I researched Uiver.

Here's the original PH-AJU:
http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o598/simonyouens/Uiver%20AJU_zpssst0qfbg.png

I remember a very strange feeling, looking at that picture, the day I received a letter, that I bought on eBay, that had survived the crash, sitting in that very tail section in a mail bag:

http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o598/simonyouens/Uiver%20-%20Envelope%20Front%20800%201200_zpsdrnaiqes.png

It's a Christmas Airmail letter sent from Amsterdam on 19 December 1934, that was recovered from the wreck of Uiver at Rutbah Wells, after the crash in the early hours of 20 December and was then forwarded (by Imperial Airways?) and received in Batavia on 28 December (postmark on the back).

I also discovered that I had forgotten that I knew about the connection of the registration with the name. I had asked a Dutch friend for help with the address and also queried the name with him, because Uiver is not the normal Dutch word for stork, which is ooievaar.

Here is his response:

You are right about the name" Uiver ". It is the name for a stork but in a local Dutch dialect, not the proper Dutch name for a stork.
All the airplanes were named after birds and as you mentioned, had to match the last letter of their registration number, but another airplane ended with a U as well and was called " Uil" Owl and there is no other bird that starts with a U except in the local dialect where a stork is called an Uiver.

[DaveReidUK]

All the airplanes were named after birds and as you mentioned, had to match the last letter of their registration number, but another airplane ended with a U as well and was called " Uil" OwlDC-3 PH-ALU was "Uil" - but that only joined the fleet a couple of years after the demise of Uiver, so was there another Uil prior to that ?

[treadigraph]

Leica, small world! The radar development work was commemorated on the science block roof by a small radar head. I always assumed the block was 1960s, but I guess it actually may have been built by the Admiralty during the war. Looking at Google Maps, rhe Oceanographic Institute buildings have been demolished and are now some horrible looking housing development, maybe for the teachers? I recall Prince Philip visited the Oceanographic people around 1978 and arrived on one of our playing fields in a Wessex.

Somebody here (Treadders ?) must have it to hand

I haven't got it I'm afraid.

[washoutt]

so was there another Uil prior to that ?Dave, there was an "Uil" (owl) from 1931 till 1934 which was the Fokker F-XII PH-AFU. It was the second FU, the first PH-AFU was also a F-XII sold to the East Indies (Indonesia) in October 1931

[Jhieminga]

The names were regularly re-used. Apart from the Uil, there were also two 'Pelikaan' versions, the first one was a Fokker F.XVIII (PH-AIP) that carried out a record-breaking flight to Indonesia and back in December 1933, but the name was re-used on a DC-3 (PH-ALP) after the first PH-ALP, named 'Pluvier', was lost in an accident.

[WHBM]

It's a Christmas Airmail letter sent from Amsterdam on 19 December 1934, that was recovered from the wreck of Uiver at Rutbah Wells, after the crash in the early hours of 20 December Just out of interest, here's the KLM timetable for the end of 1934 for the Amsterdam-Batavia route.


http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages/complete/kl34b/kl34b-3.jpg


Uiver was brand new on the route then, the only DC2 until the following year, and as the operation seems to require four aircraft, even though it was only once-weekly frequency, most of the operation was still by wooden-framed Fokkers. However, notable that the post office had done special stamps for the aircraft, which they were doubtless very proud of. Its loss must have been a national disaster.



Unfortunately, as somebody I knew in my childhood has said, "Daddy went to work and Daddy came home. We never knew what he did in between".
Indeed. Mr WHBM Senior worked in the bank all his career, except when he went into the RAF in WW2, volunteered for aircrew, and as "you must be good with figures" was a navigator. 25 trips on Halifaxes from Yorkshire (RAF Dishforth) to Europe :ok: . But he never told his mother he had volunteered, said he was doing the payroll or something, and picked off his wings if going home on leave. But afterwards he was sent on to Burma on DC3s, which I'm reminded of seeing the map on the KLM page linked here of Akyab, which was one of their bases for a while. I've said elsewhere that I heard about his Burmese flying exploits sufficiently often in younger years that I could probably fly myself today from Rangoon to Mandalay without charts (supposedly quite straightforward, just 'follow the big River Irrawaddy').


I have a recording he made of a nightingale that used to sing in the woods there.Any bombers audible in the background ?

The cello and the nightingale - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35861899)

(scroll down to the 1942 bit).

[Jhieminga]

However, notable that the post office had done special stamps for the aircraft, which they were doubtless very proud of. Its loss must have been a national disaster.
These Christmas mail flights were very special events. The 1933 flight was planned to use the new Fokker F.XX PH-AIZ 'Zilvermeeuw' but when that one developed engine trouble on the morning of the planned departure the F.XVIII PH-AIP 'Pelikaan' was quickly substituted. Within the three days that the Pelikaan took to reach Indonesia new covers were printed with the name of the Pelikaan on them for the return flight. Examples are shown on this page: Pelikaan | Snipfan.nl (http://www.snip-fan.nl/node/23)

The first cover is marked 'Zilvermeeuw' with a misspelled 'Pelikaan' quickly typed underneath. The fifth image shows the new cover, now with the name of the Pelikaan on it and it looks like the postmarks also all have the name Pelikaan on them. It makes me think that they may already have had stamps available for the different aircraft that flew the route.

It is impressive to see that envelope from the Uiver. I can understand that it must have been strange to hold that envelope knowing its history.

[WHBM]

These Christmas mail flights were very special events. The 1933 flight was planned to use the new Fokker F.XX PH-AIZ 'Zilvermeeuw' but when that one developed engine trouble on the morning of the planned departure the F.XVIII PH-AIP 'Pelikaan' was quickly substituted.


Sounds like a dry run for the 1938 UK Christmas mail fiasco along the same route to the Far East and Australia. As well as the regular Empire Flying Boats, three of the latest new 4-engined wonderplane Armstrong Whitworth Ensign were to carry the eagerly awaited, and expensive, Christmas greetings. They set off from Croydon well covered by the press. One broke down at Athens, another got as far as Alexandria in Egypt, while the third actually got as far as India. But not beyond.

Older aircraft had to come to the rescue. The Ensigns were sent back to Armstrong Whitworth in disgrace.

[India Four Two]

the eagerly awaited, and expensive, Christmas greetings.

The 30¢ and 6¢ stamps on my Uiver envelope are equivalent to about £3 today. Expensive, even before any fee for purchasing the Christmas air letter.