Considering leaving BA

[bex88]

Firstly this is not a troll post it is genuine and is not driven by BA being a bad, good or indifferent employer.

Personally when it matters they look after you well but my lifestyle had been none existent for a good number of years. My kids say they don't know me and my wife says I am not part of family life. Not unfixable but she has a good point.

The hard part is actually doing something about it if I were to leave BA. I am a captain on the 320 fleet and I have heard of a few guys leaving to go to Easy as DEC. Does anyone have any information about DEC placements? Careers page is down at the moment and I am not quite ready to pick up the phone to a recruitment agency right now.

Like I said. Its not a troll post. BA is a good employer. I am lucky to be here and enjoy my job, but maybe I am one of the few who may just be happier elsewhere.

Thanks

[kungfu panda]

Bex: Forget it. It would be by far the worst decision of your life. The grass is absolutely not greener on the low cost side of the pond. Actually the grass is pretty brown. That's why I left low cost for a commuting Chinese job.

[HundredPercentPlease]

What is it that easy have that BA don't have that you'll be jumping ship to gain?

[RexBanner]

That's exactly the trouble with us as human beings. We are constantly driven to try and better our situation and seek other options. Never being satisfied is what has driven us forward as a race but what also has the tendency to ruin us at times. I've been at both easy and BA and believe me, there are genuine complaints and grumbles at both. Nowhere is a nirvana nowadays. If you think operating out of Heathrow is a pain (and it is) Gatwick is its identikit little brother (with slightly less holding - emphasis on slightly). That's more for other people than yourself as you've stated your particular issues.

I had this discussion with an ex colleague who is joining us this year from easy who had concerns about the number of negative posts from BA pilots on here. His words were along the lines of "can you imagine the thread you could make out of easyJet at Gatwick?" You can't put it better than that. I flew with ex Monarch DEC's and a DEC from another previous airline who absolutely couldn't stand the place and I could tell regretted the move.

Ultimately you could arguably better your situation by escaping Gatwick and being in a nice regional base at easyJet but also remember that it will take you many, many years to achieve that situation, no one is in a hurry to leave the likes of Edinburgh or Bristol. I've got a mate in easy who's a skipper, has been in over ten years and is still waiting for Edinburgh. By the time you'd have waited for that at easyJet if you'd stayed at BA you'd have built up a decent level of seniority and have a much better time of things.

The grass is not always greener. Of course if you do decide to take the plunge I won't be complaining about moving a further place up the seniority list ;-)

[no sponsor]

Have you thought of staying in BA but:

Moving to LGW - you won't have as many night stops as at LHR, earning less though
Going part-time
Waiting and going to LH

[misterblue]

Just don't do it. Worst mistake you could ever make.

[BBJ-Captain]

Rex.
You're wanting to know what easyJet has over BA.
Stable roster is a starter. Being able to be based somewhere other than London is another.
You haven't elaborated on your resident situation. Do you live 10 minutes from LHR, and would your family be happy to relocate for another job? Have you even enquires about part time, or flexible working due to your children's age?
I know of a huge number of people in both airline and corporate aviation, and lifestyle is the number one issue. What I get as an undertone from your post (and forgive me if I'm wrong), is that you want something different but don't actually know what you want, and are not prepared to take a drop in income to achieve a better home life balance.
For me personally, I have always looked at the time at home as opposed to the financial income aspect. Rotations, rosters and leave allocation is all that matter to me. Would your wife and children complain if you went to work and were gone for 2 weeks, only to be at home not thinking about aviation for the next 2 weeks. If you have teenagers, then most likely they're not bothered if you're there one day to be next (to your face), but don't under estimate the 'coming home every night' part of low cost operations, it really is worth some of the crap you have to put up with.

[finncapt]

Don't do it.

35 and a BA skipper must be as good as it can get.

Sounds to me like you should divorce the wife - the sooner you do it the cheaper it is!

She won't be happy whatever company you're in.

[bex88]

thanks chaps. Some very valid points and it almost certainly sounds like it could be same crap different shirt.

The issue for me is that of rostering. Yes this is due to change with jeppessen and BA's system does work for most but and its a big but for a very small number of us you never benefit from increasing seniority. If your in the bottom 1/3 today then you will be forever. With a union who have no appetite to address the problem I can't see how I will ever have any sort of lifestyle. Working every weekend and I pretty much mean every weekend drives a big wedge between you and your family. The financial reward at BA in the medium term is considerably less than LHS at easy, if the figures on PPJN are correct. Even the captain base is significantly more.

A handful of my colleagues felt so fed up that they left too. I like the company and my job but if the situation is the same in 5 years time my job maybe all that remains. It's not a decision to be made with haste.

Financially I have a responsibility to provide for my family so yes salary is important but BBJ-Captain you make some excellent points

[Uplinker]

Bex, you will not get a better position or a better job in aviation.

BA are not perfect, and they have their own share of problems and unhappy staff, but nobody is perfect. Flying is not the job it used to be. In BA there are so many options you could pursue. Different fleets, different bases etc. The grass is not greener elsewhere, the grass everywhere nowadays is a shade of brown.

I would willingly swap with you if it were possible.

Having said that, family and home life are very important. I did not realise how important they really are until after I got divorced and, trust me, you do not want to go through a divorce - especially with children involved - if you can help it.

So my advice to you is to stay in BA and go part time and find a way to live within your reduced means. Or apply for a ground training position perhaps.

[SkyRocket10]

I can sympathise with some of the problems you are experiencing, however I would suggest there are a number of things you can do to address the situation; part time, parental leave (4wks per year), unpaid leave (seasonal), base change to LGW (where you will get some w'ends off), change to long haul after freeze, OR and this is a big one, a move back to the right seat.

As an aside, I assume given your lack of potential movement that you are an ex-bmi employee. If this is the case, I would continue to push for a move onto the main bid list. This is affecting a number of people, who despite having seniority are being held back in order to feather the nest
of those higher up and protect the long term validity of the ex-bmi bubble. Rumours are currently circulating that the size of the bubble will not work under JSS. If this is the case there will inevitably be a push to integrate the two lists with natural seniority. I suggest the next 18mths could see a real positive change for you.

[RexBanner]

SkyRocket10 there's also the issue that all of these guys who have got quick commands will stay junior in their seat because they are always going to be leapfrogged by the more senior LH people coming back over ahead of them. However that surely formed part of the due diligence in taking the command in the first place. However the extent of the problem for Bex does suggest BMI.

[misterblue]

What your roster says and what you actually do bear no resemblance at easy. An example. One month last summer. 18 duties rostered. By the end of the month, 6 were carried out. 24 changes to the other 12 duties, including lates which should have been earlies, some duties not even in the correct country.

Official roster stability as reported 63%. :confused:

[Sir Harry Lauder]

Why not try and take advantage of Parental Leave to reduce the workload. You can have up to four weeks per child per year that is aged under eighteen.

It reduces your headline salary by dividing your annual salary by 365 per day and it reduces your tax liability if you are over the £100k mark. Your pension contributions may have to reduce but depends if you are in the NAPS or the DC pension

You should seriously explore all these options before you even consider throwing in the towel with BA.

Once you've left there ain't no going back!

If it was a regional or overseas base with EZY you were after then let us know and we could probably give you a rough idea as to wait time to get in.

Do not do anything rash!

[bex88]

skyrocket10, thank you for the information. Interesting to hear about JSS hopefully that will improve the situation. I appreciate there is no perfect answer to the bubble and some benefit under the current agreement. What is wrong is that this seemingly has no end. I had no idea about parental leave. I will look into that.

RexBanner: Yep I have no problem with the theory of starting at the bottom and working your way up. But starting at the bottom and staying at the bottom whilst those remaining 4000 odd pilots move up around you is :ugh: I think it goes without saying that I do know how fortunate I am to have a job in BA and LHS now. It could easily have been very different.

Its a tough call to voice this officially because your speaking out against some of your colleagues who helped you out earlier on in your career. I do not believe anyone is saying lets do this because it will really screw him, him and her but surly something can be found that is just a little more even. It has been nearly 5 years now.

[bex88]

thank you for your input guys some very useful stuff that I can work with.

[dlcmdrx]

Please dont take this the wrong way but both your wife and your children ( if your wife has been actively raising them ) are probably selfish individuals who take all the money you bring home for granted.


What does your wife work at? does she work at all?

[4468]

bex88
The issue for me is that of rostering. Yes this is due to change with jeppessen and BA's system does work for most but and its a big but for a very small number of us you never benefit from increasing seniority. If your in the bottom 1/3 today then you will be forever. With a union who have no appetite to address the problem I can't see how I will ever have any sort of lifestyle. Working every weekend and I pretty much mean every weekend drives a big wedge between you and your family.
Can you just explain that please?

I don't think you've actually confirmed whether you are ex-BMI, but some points you are making suggest you are?

It's just that I thought there were a small number of ex-BMIers who simply chose not to come over to BA T&Cs. They are rostered and handled in the exact same way as they always were at BMI? I'm guessing that's not you?

The rest of the ex-BMI captains bid and exist, in a 'bubble'. In this bubble, a representative cross section of lines of work is pre-allocated to that bubble. Those pilots bid according to their seniority. Meaning they are completely insulated from the seniority of any other BA movement on the C320 list.

So in fact you do move up the (relative) seniority, but only when ex-BMI colleagues depart. Just as you always would have??

JSS is of course, an unknown quantity for everyone.

Of course, many other options are available to you, regarding moving off the A320 at Heathrow. You could be home every night if you move to LGW with BA. You could have an easier life by moving to LH. You can take 4 weeks 'Parental Leave' per year for every qualifying child under 18. PTWK should be available. In fact, I would go as far as to say, there's no other airline with more lifestyle choices available, than where you are right now.

If you can't make 'lifestyle' work for you with all the choices available at BA, it's not obvious which airline would be better?

There are of course other types of flying available, which are far more rewarding. (Just not financially so!)

[JosuaNkomo]

If you could get DEC with easyJet it is worth consideration. LGW is hard work but the regional bases are good.

Hope the family are able to support the decision you need to make.

Good luck

[Capt Ecureuil]

Bex, it might help others if you explain your position on the C320 seniority list and prospects of going up that list being ex-BMI.

[student88]

Bex88,

Did you fly for another airline before joining BA?

I left easyJet for BA and have never looked back. Personally I don't believe all this BS I hear at work about guys regretting having left eJ. I think its hysteria and negativity magnified/passed on by guys in the LHS who are stuck in a rut at BA because, and I try to put this in the nicest possible way, they've not flown for anyone else before and don't realise how good they've actually got it.

BA isn't perfect but as someone who worked for easyJet for almost 10 years, I can safely say you'll be making a massive mistake jumping ship.

Stay with us :)

[SkyRocket10]

Irrespective of seniority, any ex-bmi pilot that gains a LHR short haul command is forced to remain in the bubble. People above them in the bubble may leave, but if they are junior, they will remain junior and all that happens is that the number of available lines shrinks. I have every sympathy for your situation and you should be allowed to move across to the main list. Whether it's legal is debatable.

[bex88]

Ex BMI, captain and junior.

When your in the bubble of which there is no choice you will never move up. If 20% left the list all that happens is the list becomes 20% smaller and the amount of work is reduced by a equal amount.

I have no problem with being at the bottom and working your way up. There have been some very good post here and that is nice to see.

I have flown for other airlines and BA is pretty poor when your at the bottom. It of course has some positives but the whole lifestyle choices and rostering freedom is denied to pilots of my demographic. When you remove those perks and with the changes to SH you do look over the fence at easy and see hard work but better rostering, the possibility of a home base in time and better financial reward. It's a big big call to leave BA and the advice of not making a rash decision is very wise. Perhaps I just need to hang on a while longer and see if the situation is changed with JSS.

[EGPFlyer]

Are they? 885 hours in the 'regions' with a roster stability of about 50%

[Stan Woolley]

Hi bex88

There's nothing worse than feeling trapped in a job, I recognise that feeling. I think that there will have to be compromise somewhere along the line, you simply can't have it all. Some will disagree, but I just think that they might not have the same priorities that you do. Balancing family life with flying is tricky enough at the best of times.

I wouldn't even have added to the thread, only I saw BBJ say that one advantage that Easy had over BA was 'a stable roster', I nearly spit my lunch all over my iPad! A friend of mine who's been there 20years says that last summer was 'the worst ever'. That must include summers, long ago, when I was there, left seat. It just goes to show how different perceptions can vary wildly within companies, different bases, different fleets (doesn't apply at easy), different base captains, but more importantly, different personalities.

I don't have the answer, but I do know that the way you feel will be affecting your family's as well as your own wellbeing. As someone who suffered a stroke, I would advise you to do something about it and not put it on the long finger. If it were my choice to make, first thing I'd try would be to go part time at BA. Don't tickle it, make a difference. Compromise on the money. But that's just me having fun. The real choice is yours.

Good luck & all the best for 2017.

[Yarpy]

Forget it.

The grass on the other side is astroturf.:)

[Mr Angry from Purley]

bex88
Speak to your Manager at BA is the best suggestion I can make.
You'll get plenty of good and bad advice on the forum.

[Desk-pilot]

For what it's worth I have no experience of Easy, only of Flybe. I joined BA a few years ago on the A320. Being junior and also a family man I can say that my move has been a mixed bag overall but I think I have found the answer.

I truly believe that all airlines are pushing crews harder than ever since EASA loosened the reins. The trick is to recognise this and realise that you have to make compromises to achieve the work life balance that works for you. As a Captain at BA you are undoubtedly earning a solid wage, a good proportion of which is being taxed at around 50% if you take into account NI and income tax. Add in the commuting costs, the after school clubs required for cover, the increased use of shoe leather and suddenly you'll realise that going part time will take your days off per month from around 11-12 to around 18 - and that will make a huge difference in lifestyle for what amounts to proportionally a quite small % cut in net pay.

Every job is a compromise, each company has its merits. I have friends who left Flybe for Jet2 and are enjoying living in huge farmhouses in the Yorkshire Dales working a couple of days a month in the Winter. Equally I have mates who are very happy part time at Flybe working their (excellent) part time option of a 5 days on 5 days off cycle and living in lovely houses near regional bases. The trick nowadays seems to be to be either in a charter type operator or to go part time at a scheduled operator.

As others have said we are blessed in BA in having lots of options so get out there and explore them! When your work life balance is right you will stop resenting work for taking you away from your family too much and that can only be a good thing for you, for your family and indeed for BA.

[Northern Monkey]

The beauty of BA is it gives you a choice: Lifestyle or money. I have watched people 800 places junior to me get their SH command this year, I even flew with a few of them before I moved over to long haul. They made a choice to bid for command, presumably knowing that 2016 was a "one off year". They will now probably spend at least the next 5 years and quite possibly longer getting blind lines, working every weekend and most likely doing the unpleasant stuff which filters through to the bottom. I pretty much think they are crazy for doing it but everyone has their own personal calculation to make and fair play to them for passing the course and grabbing the command with both hands.

To be clear, I'm not suggesting this is you (for starters I still don't fully understand the intricacies of the BMI agreements) but it does illustrate that they made a choice that the money was more important than lifestyle. Personally (LH notwithstanding), I think I'd rather have stayed in the right hand seat of the 320, accepted I was going to earn less but would get every single weekend off, never do reserve etc etc.

Having worked at easyJet I think you'd be nuts to go there. As others have pointed out, you will end up at LGW working ridiculously hard and the roster stability is just horrible. BA are a much better employer in my opinion, difficult though that may be to accept having not seen both sides of it.

Go part time. Leave the 320 and go RHS LH and you will move up. Just don't to go EZY.

Good luck.

[Pork chop express]

Hi bex88

I can certainly empathise with the work / home lifestyle balance being away is always difficult especially when children are young and everything seems to happen at the weekends, its certainly my biggest challenge since being at BA. Looking at DEC Easy LGW you may as well ask to transfer within BA if that was workable for you. I have a good friend whose been at Easy 9 years a Capt for 4 and hes under 40 and 50% as he just cant stand full time any longer!!

I've used Parental leave at times and it works very well but does take a chunk of money! I'm finding it more and more interesting though that so many people in their 30's / 40's are having to take part-time / parental leave in order to cope in this industry as Full time leaves many feeling utterly exhausted and affecting home life. It just hides the real problem within the industry and the way we are all being worked now!

Best of luck and as someone else said take your time BA isn't going anywhere so you have plenty of time to think.

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

Bex,

I am in the same position, being an Ex Bmi junior Captain, and I must admit I have not read every single post of this thread, but have you considered part time.

I don't have a family, however, going down the part time route would give you that week off, at least one weekend off a month and the ability to work a couple of days during your week off on YOUR terms to earn some extra bunce.

This is something I am considering for the future, especially with the potentially of having to do reserve 3 times a year :eek:.

[Northern Monkey]

I'm finding it more and more interesting though that so many people in their 30's / 40's are having to take part-time / parental leave in order to cope in this industry as Full time leaves many feeling utterly exhausted and affecting home life. It just hides the real problem within the industry and the way we are all being worked now!

Amen! This is so so true. I've met so many burnt out pilots who are desperate to go part time. I think the bigger question is what the continued pressure and stress is doing to our health, both mental and physical, especially over the long term. And particularly now since you cannot go sick in some companies without the sword of Damocles hanging over you from the "absence management department".

[4468]

Irrespective of seniority, any ex-bmi pilot that gains a LHR short haul command is forced to remain in the bubble.
Wrong!!

Nobody in BA is forced to do anything. We all have choices, and can express our preferences every year. Those choices range from A320 at LHR or LGW. (Including mid-haul A321 from LHR!) B767, B747, B777, B787, A380, and soon A350.

ALL of those fleets are available to everyone.

In fact, this year, anyone could have bid out of the bubble AND retained their Heathrow A320 command!!!!

As I've already said, it's not easy to imagine an airline with better lifestyle choices than BA!

But hey. Try Easy. Come back in a year and let us know how it's turned out.

[bex88]

4468. I guess you don't fly for BA. You do not have a choice to leave the bubble and stay on the A320. If your ex BMI and you are a captain or gain your command at any point then you are returned to the bubble. If there was a choice to opt out of the bubble and go to your place on the BA MSL then there would be no problem......certainly not one that you could groan about and have any form of defence at least.

There is not much in your above statement about my position which is correct. A321 Mid haul out of LHR....must have missed that one on the bid

[RexBanner]

I think you can wipe the A350 from your list of options there 4468 ;-)

(On a different topic of course)

[bex88]

To pretty much everyone, thank you for your views and advice. There is a whole host of things in there that I have been looking into today.

Having sat down with the better half we have decided to look at the simpler options first. The honest responses from the easy guys really does help. Knowing that a regional base would be years and years off is a big factor. The workload causes a concern but BA is moving SH that way with many more 4 sector days built into tours.

I was a little surprised but my wife is supportive of part time. I was concerned about the financials and her response was "what's the point of having a bit more cash if in 10 years time you have no relationship with your kids" that and she said I was a grumpy ****er and needed to get a hobby before she kills me.

Part time won't come around until next year at the earliest but it give time to sort out my lifestyle to match a reduced salary and maybe even see how JSS changes things.

Once again, thank you. It really helps as this is not really a subject you can talk about in person within BA.

[WHYEYEMAN]

I'm an entirely happy Easy skipper at LGW. Possibly the only one by the looks of things. Yes 5 days off are hard. I struggle with 5 earlies in a row and especially during the summer. If it's all getting too much though then you don't have to go in do you? Having said that I haven't actually gone fatigued for over 18 months.

Yes, crewing own you during your 5 days on and roster stability in the summer is shocking. We have just gained more control over refusing significant short notice changes however so this should help in a small way. Personally, if I finish work and the Malaga I was going to do tomorrow has changed to a Faro then I don't get too upset about it. I just turn up at the new report time and get on with it. If it gets changed to a Larnaca then I can refuse it if it doesn't suit or take the £50 change payment if it does.

5354 is great. Socially, my free weekends are booked up until the middle of March. Family life is good. I do plenty of school runs on days off or before / after work. It has, at least a couple of times, been assumed I'm a stay-at-home Dad.

Easy is not a mature employer (no private health (just buy some) / pension not as good (top it up and avoid 60% income tax) and takes as much as it can from it's workforce. On the flip side, there are plenty of thing you can take from Easy such as regional / continental bases.

You should certainly look urgently at parental leave. It costs very little due to the tax situation and generates extra leave. The benefit of the fixed pattern here is that for only 5 days unpaid leave, you get 12 consecutive days off.

It's not a sexy airline, it's not a luxury brand. But the days out are fun and it suits me and the life I want to lead so I'm fat, dumb and happy.

There is probably a reason why this street is one way though!!

[JaxofMarlow]

Wouldn't worry about 4468's comments bex88. He has swallowed the "BA is the one and only" pill.

[Flying Wild]

Bex, I'm 99.9% sure I know you from elsewhere...

My wife just made a comment when I mentioned your situation and I think that it's worth considering. Work to Live, don't Live to Work. Then there are also the priorities of Family above all else, then Work.

I'm somewhat envious of where you are, but there is a lot to be said for being at home every night, although the summers are certainly hard work where I am.

If there are ways of improving your lifestyle at BA through part time and/or parental leave and being able to stay there, I'd certainly recommend it. From my point of view, you've got almost certain job security in a legacy airline.

[4468]

Wouldn't worry about 4468's comments bex88. He has swallowed the "BA is the one and only" pill.
Ha ha ha!

Not in the slightest.

I merely posed the question, "which airline offers more lifestyle choices"?

So far, no answers!:rolleyes:

[Mooneyboy]

LTN is also expanding slowly. There's a few ex MON guys at LTN so although you may have to go to LGW at first it might not take as long as you think to get out of there. Some regional bases do though take many years to get to ie man,ncl, especially.

The 5354 personally I like. At its fairer in terms of getting the odd weekend off. I'm been in LHS couple of years and my days off coming up mean I got the whole new year weekend off something I probably wouldn't have had at BA.

Of course the one advantage of EZY over BA (this probably won't be important if your family are settled here) is the ability to be located throughout Europe.

LGW have moved to a single crew room and I believe the car park they use now is a bit closer ( sure some LGW guys will correct me) which will make daily life a little easier.

Obviously it's not all good. Last summer was roster change galore and some very creative rostering but don't believe we were the only ones. Also your friends and family will think your not as good a pilot because you moved "down" to EZY.

Good luck with your decision.

[RAT 5]

Of course the one advantage of EZY over BA (this probably won't be important if your family are settled here) is the ability to be located throughout Europe.

I've a mate, an A320 BA captain, who lives in the French Alps and commutes from GVA: another B747 F/O who used to commute via GVA and now does it via FAO. Both had periods of 80% and enjoyed a huge improvement in life style at little loss of net income.
BA will offer options in type & life style in the future. LoCo's will be just the same, day in day out for decades.

[4468]

Of course the one advantage of EZY over BA (this probably won't be important if your family are settled here) is the ability to be located throughout Europe.
Of course the one advantage of BA over EZY (this probably won't be important if your family are settled here) is the ability to be located throughout the World.

We have pilots (and cabin crew?) living in New Zealand, Oz, the US, Brazil, Canada, Capetown, the Far East, and pretty well most places in between!

If 'quality of life' is what drives you, there isn't anywhere you can't live, whilst flying for BA.

[Mooneyboy]

RAT 5. Fair point but you'll be commuting. Certainly not everyone's cup of tea but you could locate yourself in say Milan/Lyon live 30mins drive away and be with your family ( if they were also keen on living abroad).

[3Greens]

APT isn't available now, but RTR certainly is. BA also has previous history of granting immediate access to RTR in certain circumstances.
Why not bid to LH RHS? Lifestyle would be a bit bettter given all the recruitment below you since the takeover of BMI.

[Direct Bondi]

Considering leaving BA

After you wake up, apologize to yourself, your wife and children.

[Pork chop express]

I merely posed the question, "which airline offers more lifestyle choices"?

So far, no answers

But the point is that being away from family and home is one of the biggest issues for some by the sounds of it bex88 to, nearly every airline offers part-time and Parental leave, Unpaid leave, so other than the SH v LH option at BA which is irrelevant if your issue is being away as both mean going to work with a suitcase...(excluding LGW) what else do they offer that is so different? So I don't think the lifestyle that BA offers is unique if you want to be back in your own bed at night and not go 8-13 days a month (less if part time) away. It's not about whether BA is the best or worst its about whether it fits an individuals needs and circumstances. For some its great others not so much.....

[SinBin]

I'm a juniorish BA skipper on the A320, have worked at easyJet, wouldn't leave to go back there for all the tea in China.....EVER! Would rather stick my hand in a blender!

[Mr Gammon Flaps]

Alternatively; you could leave - get a job in China flying the A330 out of CDG, earning £15k net per month after tax, with 15 days off per month, then retire after two contracts?

I'm one of the few who have left BA, and am doing exactly that.

You can PM me if you want.

BA is just a job. Quite frankly, it was the least fun I ever had in an airline, in 20 years of flying. Passive aggressive, rude and unfriendly crew, an above average percentile of entitled priggish flight crew, and relentless grinding downward pressure on terms and conditions.

Yes....staff travel is ok.....the 42 days leave is good.....but thats about it.

At the end of the day; we're all guns for hire now. The likes of Norwegian and the new IAG low cost long haul outfit being set up in BCN are the future. You might as well bugger off to China with a Euro base, save £6/7k per month; then hang up your wings at 50, and go and do something less damaging to your physical and mental health.

Just my 2c.

[Buter]

Go through the appplication process and see if they offer you the job; you have no decision to make until that happens.

Take all advice, but go with what will make YOUR life better.

Mr. Gammon Flaps, please shoot me a PM with details.

[Mr Gammon Flaps]

I didn't know there were so many unhappy guys at BA. I've just had about 10 private messages from current BA captains that want to leave.

For those that haven't contacted me thus far; I would just say this:

Flying in China is like being a high class hooker. You are getting ****** for loads of money. The job is mostly :mad:. You are subjected to ridiculous rules and countless bizarre checks. And you always operate under the ultimate Sword of Damocles, whereby a kidney stone or bad day in the sim can terminate your career. Be under NO illusion......China is a high stakes game....

Like any mercenary, if you survive, the rewards are there. I hate the job....BUT... am based in Europe, I normally get 12-17 days off per month, and I did not exaggerate - I NET £15k per month......all approved by HMRC. Not including overtime or bonus. This is CEO salary.

We are all saving £5k plus per month. 2 x 4 year contracts and we are all game over. Thats the reality of a China job.

Day to day, its okay. All flights are 4 crew. The first officers are very respectful and competent. BUT....it is a complete shambles. Yes they produce a roster; but sometimes we only get it 48 hours before; and its subject to frequent changes.

BUT....as I say......you get paid CEO salary for a reason.

It is absolutely not for everyone. But what job is. Perhaps if I joined BA in my 20's I would be happy to be there for 40 years. But then again....thats probably not me.

[Trossie]

bex88,

Put your family first. They grow up and leave too quickly, you don't want to miss that. You don't want to end up as a sad lonely old git one day who had slavishly stuck to a career to find that his family has all grown up and left and he doesn't know them.

But also be very wary of "the grass is greener". It very, very seldom is.

Stan Wooley's post is well worth paying attention to. And you never know when fate might put you in a position where you really need that family that you might have been neglecting.

If you can, go for part time. The family is more important than the money (and many, many families in the country survive on a lot less than a part time BA captain!)

The most utterly irrelevant comment on this thread must be:Also your friends and family will think your not as good a pilot because you moved "down" to EZY.Ditch those sort of 'friends' and re-educate the family!

[Chesty Morgan]

Ha ha ha!

Not in the slightest.

I merely posed the question, "which airline offers more lifestyle choices"?

So far, no answers!:rolleyes:
It's interesting that you only mentioned jobstyle choices in your previous post.

[basiljet]

Hi bex88

Thanks for your help and advice so far on the ba hold pool side of things. For my opinion and as I'm in the hold pool for BA I can say the grass is 100% not greener in rotational type jobs. I currently do 20/20 or 30/30 or 14/14 flying a very lovely jet but spend almost all my time on duty sitting in hotel rooms alone waiting for midnight so I can tick off another day before going home. Sounds lovely to have "half a year off" but if I can get a job where I fly 900 hours a year and get home more than once a month and have some, even a tiny bit of control over my roster then I would sell a limb (class one medical taken into account of of course)

I fly maybe 200 hours a year and I have done this for many years. Some medium haul but mainly long haul and I LOVE the flying but hate everything else that goes along with rotational work. There is very little to enjoy outside of a stable airline in my opinion even though my salary is far more than airline ops as it always seems to be on rotation.

[bex88]

The response and contribution to this post has been so constructive. I was concerned I would be shot down in flames for complaining about my position. I know it's a good job but as so many have said the sacrifice is huge. I need to get my **** together and make it work better. RTR part time will be my first route. I need to try and get BA working before I bang out. That's not to say BA is superior, EZY has some attraction and if I were later in my career a commuting contract too, but it is the job I have.

Appreciate the advice

[Cough]

bex - The bubble won't last forever. There will come a time when even the senior will wish to join the rest and have access to the full range of triplines. However, I can't see that inside at least 5 years or more!

But PTW/Longhaul (or both) are very valid options for yourself. As is LGW (I would say residing with a reasonable distance would be a good idea for that option though...) When I was junior at Gatters, I would still get a weekend or two off a month. If you went 75%, you'd know your weekends off miles in advance which is a massive bonus to your family.

As for 'providing'. Yup money is important, but (for me!) lifestyle trumps it...

[3Greens]

I bet not one single of those 10 BA pilots even goes for the interview with a Chinese airline.

[Viking101]

EZY does not have stable rosters. Yes 5354 for the guys who have been there for a few years AND in larger bases, but the roster keeps changing. 5 earlies in a row and youre so nackered you will struggle to play with wife (...) and kids

I would think really really hard before sending an application.

Good luck with your choice

[macdo]

BA is not the problem here, the issue is the lifestyle of the modern airline pilot. Having tried pretty much everything to achieve a good life/work balance, Part Time is the only thing that works. Not only do you get your family/social life back, the sense of control that having that extra time off gives is unbeatable.
I'm now permanent part time long haul and have never had more free time and have never been less tired.

[ExDubai]

Original posting deleted

[Ramsey]

Have worked for a legacy airline and today working for Easyjet. Chose Easyjet for the simple fact that I wanted time with the family.
In a year I have no more than 10 nights away from the family.
5-4 roster pattern. Can choose between early or late rotations. Have tried both. On earlies you have to be strict about bedtime, so no social life in the evening but fantastic for family time with the kids.
Currently working 660 hours a year.
Can take parental leave whenever I want.
If you are fatigued or did not sleep well you call crewing and report fatigued or UNFIT. It has never been a problem
Money is very good here but not China.
Would recommend Easyjet to anyone if you want a good family life

[Craggenmore]

Bex,

If BA is likened to a top British Public School then you see yourself at the bottom fagging for all the seniors with no end in sight..?

I completely sympathise with you.

[Superpilot]

All this mention of 5/4. Is it even available for people starting today?
Here here Cragggenmore.

[ESQU]

5-4 roster pattern is only available in mxp, everywhere else is either 5-3-5-4 or random. The number of captains in easyJet requesting to go part time due to workload is massive.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Part Time is something that is very popular these days. Most Pilots state work / life balance - some mention keeping under tax brackets. Airlines also generally like P/T as most guys that go are senior in rank, replace them with cheaper Captains and wannabee F/O's - apart from increased training costs and insurance it's a win-win.

[RAT 5]

In the twilight of a career P/T is magic. The increase in health, relaxation, balance in work/social life, opportunities for life outside an aluminium tube and social interaction to people you'll see more than once a month is worth so much more than the slight loss in NET income. Carpe diem. I re-discovered what a weekend was. Monday mornings had no fear. Fun returned to the job.
Do not discount it.

[DooblerChina]

Why wait for the twilight of ones career? It seems the perfect answer for the author of this thread. I aim to be part time from my early 40s. My company has an 87% work option for 92% pay, this seems a really nice introduction to part time and will give me a little more time with my boy while he's still fairly young. What's 8% pay compared to time with loved ones? You can't take it with you guys!

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Great thread, warts and all stuff with eyes open etc


and will give me a little more time with my boy while he's still fairly young. What's 8% pay compared to time with loved ones? You can't take it with you guys!

Sums it all up really. I just hope I can live by it because it is very easy in this job to chase the money and ignore the big picture, strange when you think we spend all day at work thinking about the big picture!

Ps Bex I know you have got a command and want time at home and roster control but BA long haul is a different airline, if you decide to go that way. I have much more proper time at home with my kids.

I worked for ezy, great people and a great job, but you will work bloody hard. Frying pan and fire springs to mind.

[Toastal]

"BA short haul Capt, as best as it can get" Oh please.....I'm appalled at what take home pay a junior Airbus Capt makes, never mind the costs of commuting on top of that. Some folks on here need a serious reality check!!

[finncapt]

Toastal

If your post was a criticism of my post no.8, at least have the decency to quote the whole quote!!

If it was in relation to another post, I apologize for taking you to task.

[VJW]

What is the take home pay 'roughly' for a junior 320 capt?!

[macdo]

If you go back to the OP's question, this is about lifestyle, not money.
At the age of 60, if the OP ends up divorced, a stranger to his children and suffering from ill-health, no amount of income will make him happy.

Judging by the amount of people going PT at my airline, for financial, social and health reasons, its becoming a no-brainer.

[Tricia Takanawa]

I have to say well played by the airlines. For years pilots were the necessary evil. Well paid, returning only around 600 hours pa. Lush hotels, unions etc etc.

Solution, work them to the point that they have to go part time for the job to be sustainable on the body, family life etc. Back to the historic circa 600 hours pa, but at 70% of the original salary.

[Pork chop express]

What is the take home pay 'roughly' for a junior 320 capt!?

The below are the approx basic salaries give or take a few pounds and don't include any pay increase for 2017....this will be the bracket for those that joined BA and got a quick command from the bidding blip in 2015. They don't include flying pay of approx £8k ish (900hrs) per year and then time away from base expenses depends how much you spend downroute, but the overall package for a year 3 Capt without overtime would be approx £93-94k......so by no means mind blowing for a legacy carrier. Of course historically you'd never be on pay scale 3 as a Capt at BA as you'd have been in for 9-10 years to get a SH command when the basic is more like £91,500. But as someone rightly points out above this particular discussion is about lifestyle and family not just money!

Basic year 2 Capt 34 point pay - approx £75,500
Basic year 3 Capt 34 point pay - approx £77,500
Basic year 4 Capt 34 point pay - approx £79,500

[RAT 5]

I have to say well played by the airlines. For years pilots were the necessary evil. Well paid, returning only around 600 hours pa. Lush hotels, unions etc etc.
Solution, work them to the point that they have to go part time for the job to be sustainable on the body, family life etc. Back to the historic circa 600 hours pa, but at 70% of the original salary.

The other side of that coin is as the airlines expand and more pilots go part-time they need even more pilots. The business model of the 2nd tier airlines is continual expansion. They are like fish; if they stop moving they die. Allowing pilots to fly until 65 has helped some, but to survive a LoCo for 40 years you need part-time at half-life. I went 50% at 50 and slipped to 40% about 57 then 30% about 60 until 62. One wife & no kids helped immeasurably, but it was the only way for me. A balance of flying & sim also helped.
In the latter years the thought of entertaining 5 earlies or lates away from home in some basic hotel was unthinkable.
There was a question some years ago about what advice would you give to a youngster wanting to join thie rat race, and would you advise it at all. I remember the -ve answers and wonder if they are even more applicable some years later.

[4468]

I agree this thread isn't about pay. I've said all through my flying career, the best paid jobs tend to be dangerous, boring, or insecure! One way or another there are usually very good reasons why employers need to pay big money! Everyone would do the best jobs for free, if only they could afford to. Float plane in the Indian Ocean, flying in shorts and flip-flops anyone??

But just to put Pork chop express' post in to perspective, it's only right to add some balance! I know for a fact there are more BA SH captains on the top paypoint than on all the bottom 3 paypoints! Last time I checked, the top SH paypoint pays around £140k basic. Plus around £12k. Remember, a fair number of pilots in BA are not UK tax payers!

Top paypoint for a basic (gash shag!) LH captain seems to be around £165k plus £12k. There are very significant emoluments for both training and junior management.

If you can't make those numbers work on a full, or part time basis, (should that be your preference?) then you must have some VERY serious addictions, or a 5 a side team of ex-wives!

I'm not saying for one moment everyone is on these numbers, but nor are many on Pork chops'! Everyone is somewhere along that scale.

There are of course, many other items in the overall package that make BA attractive!

[Pork chop express]

4468

The question was "what is the take home pay of a junior SH Capt that's what I posted a response too....there's no need to jump to BA's defence every time what I've posted is the reality. Being on paypoint 10 or 15 on the 24 point scale on £140k isn't junior!

[4468]

Of course it's also well worth pointing out that, unlike many airlines a BA pilot doesn't automatically move to the bottom of the captain's payscales on achieving a command. So spend 15 years on a beach as a LH FO, then move across to a pp16 captain. What's not to like??

Of course, if you'd preferred that command in the same year you joined, it was (briefly!!) available!! Albeit for the 'insulting' sum of initially £85-90k. Your choice. After all, Direct Entry Commands aren't available everywhere!

Purely for the information of those who may not know.

[McNugget]

Crikey,

4468 has a seriously blinkered view of the world.

Those captain figures, both junior and senior, are deeply underwhelming.

Hadn't checked up on them for some years. Oh dear.

[macdo]

4468, love that 5-a-side ex wifes comment.
I think that's one of the things the OP is trying to avoid, as even on 145k, once the ex is putting your little darlings through private schools and you paying her mortgage until she is 65, while you try to set up home in a Barratt semi with a girl 10 years younger who still wants to breed, there ain't gonna be a whole lot left! ;-)

[Lazydogg]

The reality is that it will suit some and it won't suit others.

I have two close friends that were colleagues with me at FR who were both in the LHS in UK bases on a permanent contract.

They left just last year to join BA on the 74.

Both of them are seriously considering their options at the moment.

It's a lifestyle choice and the simple fact is that they both miss the home time they once had on a 5-4 and both have taken considerable pay cuts in the short term.

Having said that BA will not be short of applicants despite what's said on here. Three of the five FOs I flew with this week are swimming in the hold pool and won't think twice about leaving if the call does come within their 18 month stint .However....

They are not sitting in their mid thirties like me or my two ex colleagues previously mentioned.

Don't get me wrong. Yes it's the best gig in the UK overall. But it simply won't work for everyone.

[Right Engine]

I'd sit down with your Mrs and explain your emasculation. If she is a good person, she will help. I've flown with too many people who haven't voiced this. Being an engaged father is tough in our job, and much of the disengagement is self-fuelled, but you need help to become involved.

[phantom menace]

Some others have mentioned this previously, but have you considered going part- time. I would recommend you stay with BA and look at all the available options to improve your work lifestyle balance.

[PlankBoy]

Do your future 60 year old self a favour and stick with BA - part time wide body long haul skipper with LHR base is, in my opinion, the only way to have a long career in this industry as things stand right now. Everyone is different but several earlies in a row and 4 sector days is a young man's game in my view.

[Capt Ecureuil]

Crikey,

4468 has a seriously blinkered view of the world.

Those captain figures, both junior and senior, are deeply underwhelming.

Hadn't checked up on them for some years. Oh dear.


You're not kidding.

Would you recommend looking at Cathay?

What's the earning potential in HKG these days?

[Threethirty]

Depends if you're on the Airbus or Boeing. They do so much overtime on the 777 which isn't hard due to the ULH nature of the flying, a friend of mine who even though being C scale said he earnt 160,000 HKD in December! This is including massive overtime mind you.

[Speedbrakes Up]

Such an interesting thread!

I have to say I am looking at moving myself to a more stable family friendly airline, and easyJet is on my radar!
Every one is unquie, some want money, some want the status, and some want the lifestyle.

I for one want the lifestyle.... but you have to do what is best for you.

I have heard of several BA pilots who applied and are looking at moving to Virgin, as rated 747 pilots, so maybe the lifestyle on long haul may not be that much better as junior pilot.

[3Greens]

i bet not one single pilot this calendar year leaves BA as a Captain for another airline. People say a lot of crap on the flight deck when in full on whinge mode.

[Capt Ecureuil]

Depends if you're on the Airbus or Boeing. They do so much overtime on the 777 which isn't hard due to the ULH nature of the flying, a friend of mine who even though being C scale said he earnt 160,000 HKD in December! This is including massive overtime mind you.

I trust that he's an FO.

I thought there was an overtime ban :uhoh:

[4468]

Capt Ecureuill
Would you recommend looking at Cathay?

There's a Fragrant Harbour forum on pprune, where all the Cathay boys and girls post what they think of their airline. Well worth a look.

Here's an informative post from 4 days ago:
This airline is starting to look more and more like the US airlines that entered bankruptcy in the 80's. Cut, cut, cut, abuse staff, abuse staff, absurd rationalizations, excuses, lies, losing passengers, tarnished reputations, blah, blah, blah. Eventually, some grown-ups took over the management (of most of them) and started to reinvest in their product AND employees. Sadly, the myopic bunch running this airline are deaf, dumb and blind to any of this. The "Fall of Cathay Pacific" is well into it's last chapters. Someone please turn out the last dim lightbulb when it's all over. Thank you.
On a different 'accommodation' thread, another poster asks for tips on how to live in a property of 50 square feet.

Best of luck!

Meanwhile, (to paraphrase a tag line from a well known reality TV show!) bex88's search for an airline better than BA, continues!!

Now, I dunno but, maybe he can cross Cathay off his list, for an improvement in quality of life?

[Artificial Horizon]

Just my two cents worth, I left BA in 2009 when the VR was on offer. It was primarily driven by the want to move back 'down-under' where I would be able to achieve a better lifestyle for my Family. I loved the flying with BA but as others have said it was quite hard hitting on my Wife considering I was away a lot. From a lifestyle point of view I have never regretted the move as I have gone to a job as a Training Captain on the A320 where night stops are quite rare, at times I think my Wife wishes I was away a bit more :-) I get to spend lots of time with the kids and my quality of life is streets ahead of what I could obtain around London or gain from a commuting lifestyle. The downsides are:

-Nowhere near the career path of BA, apart from checking I am as high as I can go, no fleet moves here, if I want to go Long Haul anytime in the future then I have to change airlines.

-Leave and days off are on a rotating system, no bidding whatsoever! So I have missed the odd important occasion due to no ability to bid! I have to take the kids out of school for most family holidays as you can forget time off during the school holidays.

-No other general perks, Staff Travel no where near as good (you will miss it!) No paxing in business class etc.... Standard of hotels and 'allowances' no where near as good.

Overall I am really happy with the move and from a family point of view would never go back (even if I could), it has come at the expense though of a career that offered stability and a great variety of opportunities! Everytime I see that BA tail in Sydney I do get very sentimental and generally annoy all my FO's telling them what a great time I had at BA.

By all means if you are going to prioritize family then a move maybe sensible but you will have times in your new job where you regret it! For me though the improved lifestyle was worth it.

[king surf]

QUOTE FROM 3 GREENS I bet not one single pilot this calendar year leaves BA as a Captain for another airline. People say a lot of crap on the flight deck when in full on whinge mode.

A friend of mine is leaving this month for easy jet and another left last month.
So thats 2 i know in 2 months

[EMB-145LR]

Likewise; I know of two skippers on the A320 that are leaving, one to Jet2 and the other to easyJet, both as DECs.

[McNugget]

Now, I dunno but, maybe he can cross Cathay off his list, for an improvement in quality of life?

Now, I dunno but, I'd be willing to wager short haul BA would be a huge reduction in quality of life for me. I get 18 days off a month.

This isn't about my employer, though. It was pointing out that pay is seriously underwhelming in the U.K.

As for cash, I've just paid my tax bill. If you'd like to know what I made, just say.

Friends in the US Legacy carriers are making $200k without breaking a sweat as year 3 FOs.

4468, do you think there is room for improvement?

[Capt Ecureuil]

Will you stop putting off unhappy BA pilots from leaving... lets encourage them to go*

* for my own purely selfish reasons you understand.


McNugget, I'm sure we would all love to get the US legacy carriers $$$$$'s but as I haven't a green card I can't. I'm not clear on the point you're making.

As for Cathay, is your lifestyle on your mega-buck salary good? I only ask as I didn't bother turning up for the Cathay interview many years ago in a time you guys call the "good times".

Me, I'm happy watching the deer whilst looking out over 6 acres of fields and woodland in Southern England also with 18 days off this month..

[4468]

Hi McNugget

I comfortably exceeded your 18 days a month, both last month and this. Though I accept occasionally I won't

Why would I be interested in what you made? I have no idea what it costs you to live? As for me, I live in 3 acres with 5 stables, in a Northern county. My property cost little more than twice my annual salary!! My wife and I are both within 20 minutes of our parents, and my kids see their cousins most weekends.

US carriers are frequently protected from bankruptcy by Chapter 11. They lurch from good times to furlough with monotonous regularity! I know which I prefer!

So, do you think there's room for improvement?:rolleyes:

[Pork chop express]

i bet not one single pilot this calendar year leaves BA as a Captain for another airline. People say a lot of crap on the flight deck when in full on whinge mode.

If you are talking LH Capt yep i would agree with you it's highly unlikely, SH however there will definitely be some leaving as others have confirmed above. I've a good friend whose a Capt on SH, he flew with 4 junior FO's before starting their Command courses, they openly admitted that their plan was 1000hrs LHS and then DEC LGW with Easy and the accompanying £20k-£25k pay rise. If you don't want LH at BA and want to be home most nights and not night stopping round Europe who could blame them.

The focus of this whole post is Family & Lifestyle and for some (NOT ALL) you can't achieve this with BA without taking a (25-50%) pay cut to go part time and even then you'll still be away regardless of SH or LH (Excluding LGW) as that is a part of life at BA and for some they love it.

I've done SH at 2 other airlines prior to joining BA on LH and for me personally and my family being home at night (or in the morning!:E) just works better compared to the constant coming and going of a long haul schedule and the associated pressure this puts on things at home not to mention the groggy mild permanent flu feeling!:{ Which of course then affects your ability to spend quality time at home.
I've flown with many guys since joining BA who loved the job in their 20's early 30's, but admit now they are married and have young children that its just not the same for them. This is where it gets tricky at BA because being away is part of the lifestyle that some people grow very tired of.

[Vokes55]

Seeing as it looks like we're all in the mood for willy waving, but also to add another perspective...

I work for a UK 'charter' airline - I have 5 days of rostered flights between now and the end of February, along with a standby block that I almost certainly won't get called for. I have all but one weekend between now and the end of April booked off, and have three weeks of Summer leave confirmed, which were the exact dates I requested and were granted instantly. I'm full time and earn a higher basic salary than somebody in my equivalent position in BA. Every duty is a one or two sector day, and I've only spent two nights away from home since I started (one of which was a last minute change, which I could've refused). I have a plethora of fleet options and detachments available to bid for to keep me interested. Everybody on my OCC course was offered their first preference of base.

It's probably not much use to the OP, but to anybody 10-15 years junior and wanting to avoid the described scenario, charter is certainly the way to go. Summer will be busier, but for now I have, if anything, too much time off.

[WindSheer]

Look at the various t's and c's and do what is right for you and your family. Some of the posts I have read are insulting to your family.
Forget status and all the meaningless rubbish, family first!!

[Alycidon]

I work for a UK 'charter' airline - I have 5 days of rostered flights between now and the end of February, along with a standby block that I almost certainly won't get called for. I have all but one weekend between now and the end of April booked off, and have three weeks of Summer leave confirmed, which were the exact dates I requested and were granted instantly.

you'll be doing most of your flying during the summer, working 7 on 1 off, 7 on 2 off or your employer has seriously lost the plot

[hunterboy]

I can remember talking to Monarch mates telling me how little work they used to fly for a pretty decent salary. If I worked for an airline that wasn't flying me 700-850 hours a year, I'd be getting pretty concerned because the airlines that do sweat their assets are going to eat your lunch.
Doing what's best for your family includes job security I'd say. Anyway, good luck to all concerned. Let's hope we all have a job at the end of our career and a pension that pays out.

[Vokes55]

you'll be doing most of your flying during the summer, working 7 on 1 off, 7 on 2 off or your employer has seriously lost the plot

I'm aware that Summer is busier than Winter, but I'd far rather do 8 quiet months and 4 busy, than a constant procession of long 4-sector days every weekend, every month. My life has been far healthier and less stressful since I switched from (low-cost) scheduled to charter.

[McNugget]

Hi McNugget

I comfortably exceeded your 18 days a month, both last month and this. Though I accept occasionally I won't

Why would I be interested in what you made? I have no idea what it costs you to live? As for me, I live in 3 acres with 5 stables, in a Northern county. My property cost little more than twice my annual salary!! My wife and I are both within 20 minutes of our parents, and my kids see their cousins most weekends.

US carriers are frequently protected from bankruptcy by Chapter 11. They lurch from good times to furlough with monotonous regularity! I know which I prefer!

So, do you think there's room for improvement?:rolleyes:
BA SH wouldn't give me 18 days off a month. That's the crux of the OPs discussion.

I'm sure you get lots of time off - then again, as you repeatedly remind us, you're at the top of the seniority tree.

I too have a several acre property in the UK. If I so choose, I could spend more time in it each month than a BA SH pilot. Again, the crux of the OP's 'beef'.

I didn't drag CX into this discussion. I merely offered to answer a question on it.

If you think that BA SH salary is good for the workload involved, then I am surprised, that's all. I think it is quite poor. The retirement contributions are in need of a good boost, too.

I realise that given your tenure and joining date at BA, you think they can do no wrong.

I think your use of 'monotonous regularity' is slightly loose. It happened since the turning of the century, but before those dark years, and since, US legacy contracts have wiped the floor with BA and VS.

I used them as a reference. I am not American either.

[Wireless]

Quality. this thread is hilarious :-))

"I am considerrablay richar than yaaaaooouu"

I would blow my own trumpet, but I don't even have a trumpet, or an acre, or a stable, or 40 days off a month

[Callsign Kilo]

Pilots talking about possessions. Whatever next? Move along to the next cliche.

To the OP, leave BA. It'll be a far more enthralling conversation for your FO to be involved in. He or she is tired of listening to stories of acreage, porsches and converted Victorian farm houses.

[blind pew]

Left BEA in 78 for long haul but because of the retirement of the VC10 chucked in BA. In my six years in BEA we lost eight aircraft..absolute rubbish management.
There were four great carriers then; Cathay, Swissair, Pan Am and TWA. Passed the Cathay interview but took Swissair.
Doubled salary but tripled emoluments.
New American aircraft, well maintained and clean, great cabin crew relationship, and flew jets in a way that none of my mates experienced bar those on Concorde.
But we were expats and foreigners.
Wife couldn't handle the racism nor the isolation...daughter beaten up at school and if you haven't experienced an expat community then don't.
Went from 15 days off to 9 and 9- 20 nights away.
But got a minimum of a month off every school summer holidays, had an au pair so that my wife could come on trips as did my kids and then took up to two months unpaid leave as had the income to do so.
Did it work and would I do it again?
Who knows but many of my friends in BA had a lot of family problems, colleagues visiting their wives, kids on drugs and in prison....
Imho put your family's well being first.
Three of those carriers are gone.
BA nearly went in the 80s.
Met a FR skipper who was on three four day trips per month on 100grand net...now that appealed to me.
PS..it took me 20 years to get a command.
Good luck

[Capt Ecureuil]

I apologise to those that thought I was willy waving and richer than yaaaaooouu, it wasn't meant that way. I know if I had joined Cathay I would be a lot richer than I am now. I was simply pointing to quality of life compared to that I could experience in HKG. Don't get me wrong I love HKG but only to visit even though it costs me an arm and a leg when I do. All off-topic anyway.

As I say, lets encourage those that are unhappy to leave that way terms and conditions may improve and not be viewed as quite poor. Problem is everyone at BA got blackmailed in to taking a hit (SH especially) to bring BMI into mainline rather than face the threat of it being run as a IAG competitor.

[bex88]

There is always 1......callsign kilo thanks for the tip.

For the record take home in the left seat as a junior captain is little more than most F/O's.

I have no interest in a Porsche, a big house or any other crap that you wish to broad brush me with. I have a concern for my kids and my wife. When you are lucky enough to have met someone special and you have seen friends die young then it shifts your priorities. Like people have said this is not about money or about what others have got. It's about meeting the needs of your family both in person and financially.

[Doug E Style]

Crikey,

4468 has a seriously blinkered view of the world.



Sadly, a characteristic that is all-too-common amongst the blue bloods....

[Flying Torquewrench]

Bex88, your last post was spot on.

Money doesn't make you happy. It certainly makes life a lot easier but it doesn't make you happy. I have also seen to many people die to young and who in their live were obsessed with money. They died with lots of cash in the bank to fund all the plans they had for when they retired.

Whilst I don't work for BA I can't comment on them specifically. I work for a charter gone scheduled UK airline whose work is busier in the summer then in the winter. However I still did 800 hours a year with hardly any nights away from home. I am in my mid to late thirties and work 75%, which means a block of 7 days off every 28 days. My other half has the same Part Time block so we are guaranteed to have a week off together each 28 days. It is absolutely brilliant. Yep, money is slightly less but still earning more than enough to have a nice lifestyle. I can highly recommend going Part Time.

[4468]

I have no interest in a Porsche, a big house or any other crap that you wish to broad brush me with. I have a concern for my kids and my wife. When you are lucky enough to have met someone special and you have seen friends die young then it shifts your priorities. Like people have said this is not about money or about what others have got. It's about meeting the needs of your family both in person and financially.
Couldn't agree more!

Precisely why I choose to live in a cheap part of the country! That way I can also choose to spend the absolute minimum time at work! I don't need lots of money. I don't want a flash car! My expenses are small. Yes my tax is a bummer, but again, that's my choice. I COULD eliminate that, but my family and I value the UK life/employment safeguards. Many other places are great to visit. (And I have many times!) Wouldn't want to live, even less work there though. Of course because I chose not to live the ex-pat life, my family also have the joy of seeing their relies as often as they wish!

They're happy = I'm happy!

Before anyone asks. Yes this is all possible on SH. Ask me how I know?!

Despite some claiming they know my 'seniority', I don't believe I've ever given any indication? Nor is it important! Nor is it relevant, what fleet I'm on?

Don't have an expensive lifestyle, (ok, or maybe kids!!!) and this job could, with good choices, deliver a perfectly reasonable life!!

The prejudice against BA is rather surprising when one considers the numbers of applicants every time a window opens! Maybe all applicants are stupid, who have done no research. No 'due diligence'. Though I accept bex88 may never have actually wanted to fly for BA. Maybe significant?

Good luck whatever y'all choose.

[macdo]

At the end of the day, if you are working for BA,VS,TOM or TCX on a legacy contract, it is a case of same poo, different flavour. Nothing in the mainstream airline industry is going to turn the clock back 35 years to better times, so all that you are left with is working the system to your best advantage. Seems from the above posters, including myself, PT is the only way to control your life. I'm sorry, but at the age I am now, the thought of doing back to back early starts is exhausting just to think about. But, 15 years ago, I'm glad I suffered it to be home for bath and book time. Sadly, at the time, I couldn't afford to go PT, and the industry was much more resistant to flexible working patterns. Odd, that it is something from EU that actually did us a big favour.

[bex88]

4468. Just to be clear that I am pleased to be flying for BA but my personal life is paying the price. The many posts on here will certainly help as I try to find a solution before it's gone.

I have no prejudice against BA

[Wireless]

Bex

Just to clarify I and I think some others were just laughing at the horses, stables and who's got the best time off top trumps game some others were playing -not directed at you. I reckon yours is an interesting post. Food for thought . Crack on talking about it. Balls to the detractors. The more people talk honestly about how they find jobs impact their lives the better.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Have you spoken to BA?.
What about a Training position or is that all at weekends also.

[Jumpjim]

Training is spread evenly throughout the month with a mixture of sims and flying (if you're a TC) or sims only if you are a TCP.

It's reinvigorated my love and interest in the job. Every day is a challenge in some way, I learn LOADS from watching how other people fly aircraft (Eye opening after 20+ years in the job), and it can be an incredibly rewarding occupation. I can highly recommend it.

There is the significant amount of hoop jumping and courses to be passed first mind which was extremely hard work but worth it in the end.

[WindSheer]

Bex....go to Thomson at a Base near you. I reckon you'll get all, you need for your family. The quiet winter will make up for the busy summer.

[Pilotbac]

Bex88 I've been retired from BA almost as long as you've been alive, so all I can say to you as a very lucky 35year old with a command don't even consider unless you require a long period in your life that you will regret forever! My only grouse would be the removal of my staff travel which I valued more than anything! But all in all BA is a great company!

[JB007]

Part time...part time...part time!

Not a huge amount of options at my airline but I'd guess BA has quite a few choices that are more complex than the 50% or 75% available to me.

I'm 75% which is 5 on/5 off - find something else away from aviation, a new passion with all your new time, involve the wife and family. Something genuinely for yourself and your own satisfaction.

Then just go flying, as nothing more than something to do between your days off!

[Callsign Kilo]

Bex88

Think you may possibly have me wrong? I was merely highlighting the absurdity of some of the previous postings with a little satire (the ones where people felt the need to talk about income and acres!)

I, for one, sympathise with your dilemma and once shared similar circumstances; albeit I've never worked for BA. I had a flying job that literally owned me, one where I was spending a ridiculous amount of time away from my young family. 2 years ago I resigned, joining another operator as DEC at my home base. I haven't looked back and I'd advise you to do what you can to make your family and of course yourself happy. You only get one chance.

I wish you well. Good luck.

[Capt Ecureuil]

Lets face it, terms and conditions aren't going to get any better in the years to come.

I don't know how those in SH do it, I tried it 20 years ago for an early left seat but it knackered me, and that was doing 600 hours odd a year. Lasted 20 months before getting back in the right seat on LH. And before I'm shouted at, I know LH isn't for everyone and keeping a command for some is important.

A question... How do the guys and girls in Easy and such companies like having DEC's come in ahead of their commands? I can understand new rapidly expanding airlines like Norwegian but those that have been around a little longer???

[FACoff]

It's been happening at EZY for a while now. Initially it ruffled a few feathers, then it transpired it still has little to no bearing on achieving command within 5 years (the quickest I've seen recently was just over 4).

Ironically I am reaching this point myself whilst swimming in the BA pool awaiting a start date. Being home every night is lovely but a few more summers like last year and something's going to give - it is NOT a stable lifestyle as some people have strangely suggested. Endless roster changes, minimum rest and max FDP duties sadly make it impossible to contemplate a career here.

[JaxofMarlow]

Capt E. I would not think they are too bothered. As long as they have the right aptitude they can still get their command in 3/4 years.

[Blantoon]

Bex88 I've been retired from BA almost as long as you've been alive, so all I can say to you as a very lucky 35year old with a command don't even consider unless you require a long period in your life that you will regret forever!With respect, having been retired as long as you have perhaps you don't have the most up to date information to be able to give someone such blanket advice. For example, you never had to deal with the bubble situation that Bex88 is caught in (which is of massive importance). Not to mention the raft of other changes in the meantime.

Bex88, I can only offer the same advice that has been given. Look at the options, gather as much information as you can (particularly recent first hand experiences), consider things like part time, moving, commuting. Try to be honest with yourself and then choose the best option for you and your family.

Good luck.

[Doug E Style]

Blantoon, I'm very glad I wasn't the only person to think that about Pilotbac's post. Oh, for those halcyon days of almost 35 years ago; Tridents, Tristars, VC10s, cheese board, landing drinks, jumpers for goalposts, mmm, isn't it? I wonder how many current BA pilots will enjoy 35 years of retirement and/or the sort of pension that Pilotbac no doubt enjoys?

[Pork chop express]

Blantoon / Doug E Style

You beat me to it!!

Pilotbac i think you might find BA a bit different from 35 years ago, that's not to say it isn't still a good company as it is in many ways but for the OP his biggest regret might be not doing something about the affect BA is having on his family life!

[bex88]

Callsign kilo........sorry I took the bait 👍 Usually I would get the humour better.

[rmiller774]

Just as you are a highly trained professional skilled in flying aircraft, there are highly trained professionals skilled in helping family's stay together.