TP Command or Jet F/O?

[Joaofsgoncalves]

Hello!

I am a F/O on the ATR72-600 and in the beginning of next year I may upgrade to captain.
But a few months ago I applied to another airline that operates A320, with only one more interview and sim left in the assessment (if I pass I have to self fund the TR), I'm now thinking between both if i succeed. (Salary would be similar)

I know that there is no definite answer to this question and that I will have to do the decision on my own at the end, but I wanted to hear some different opinions about this topic.
So what's more worth in your opinion?

[Intrance]

My types were not similar, being smaller and less pax capacity, lower weights. But I was also in a position to move to LH seat on a turboprop or RH seat on a jet. For me the jet was a huge upgrade and would open more doors in the future than the turboprop command time would ever do.

I think companies, or better, HR departments still generally tend to look at jet time as worth more than turboprop time, so that could play a role. But self sponsoring the type would be a pretty big con for me personally. Your current company does not have any further progression opportunities beyond LH seat ATR? If they do it might be worth it to stick around.

There no easy single answer as you said, I'm not even sure I added anything useful in this post :8. I tend to lean towards the jet with the motto "it's easier to move down in size of planes to fly than it is to move up".

[WMB]

If you want to fly go left seat turboprop, but unfortunately if you want a career that will pay the bills comfortably over time, then it get your ass in a jet as soon as you can.

[Popgun]

+1 for the jet.

Get your ass in a jet ASAP. Especially when it is such a common and useful type as the A320.

Good luck with your decision.

[Rithalic]

Had to make a very similar decision myself about a year ago. There's a million variables but the factor that swung it for me was knowing that when the bottom falls out of the industry again, I'd be better off / more marketable having a 320 rating than a t'prop. Of course having to pay for it myself would probably make me think twice. Good luck with the decision anyway.

[Chesty Morgan]

Never turn down your first command.

[Stuck_in_an_ATR]

Chesty is right. I was in the same situation a couple of years ago and took ATR command (actually was even a bit forced into it, instead of going for a RH seat in a jet).

It didn't feel entirely right at the time - I felt I was stuck on the ATR for eternity (my PPRune moniker reflects my then-frustration :}). However, it turned out to be 4 years or so, and it was a great way to gain command experience and sharpen my flying skills. ATR is perfect for that.

When the tide turned and I got a jet TR, I briefly had to go back to the RH seat. However, my previous command experience allowed me to upgrade in minimum time (500 hours on type, or so) and the process has been a breeze. Couple of years later I am flying happily as a widebody CA. Some of the guys that took the jet while I got the ATR command (10 years ago) are still F/Os, or at least upgraded to jet CA much later.

I know it is a bit market-dependent and know some guys who had been stuck on a TP forever and can't get out of it. Still, I would not totally disparage the idea of ATR command...

[WMB]

Chesty was right about 5-10 years ago, before paying for a type rating became the norm. I am in no way defending the pay to fly schemes, but they have changed the game for all Turboprop guys. Now most HR departments ( Granted not all), will put low hour jet rated guys at the top of the CV pile, above experienced TP guys. I agree with Chestys thinking, and in an ideal world the things you will learn by moving to the left will rapidly develop you as a pilot. If only major HR departments thought the same.

Ps
The only ATR of any benefit is the 72/600, with a operation that is fully PBN approved, flying into major airports.

[Intrance]

That's one of those one-liners from way back, that disregards all variables about a situation...

My first command would have been on a sub 10.000kg, sub 20 pax turboprop that just about no one flies anymore, and that most employers don't seem to consider as valid experience at all. It would have gotten me nowhere soon, and I was making command decisions for a few years from the RH seat already due to severely subpar LH-seaters in my previous company (not implying I'm one of the skygods but these people were beyond belief).

Meanwhile, I will have the total time to be considered for LH seat within a year or so after switching to a jet, and have already been told that I will get the chance ASAP. Not spending that money before I have it in my pocket, but still... screw that old adage :) :rolleyes:. Times change and one-liners should not guide your decision IMHO.

[dboy]

If i were you, i would go for the command. Later on you can still apply for captain NTR position. Me, i have couple of thousand hours on jet but very little pic hours. I feel there is still a gap between fo and captain experience. The step to go from the right to the left is much much higher than swapping from type and perhaps more valuable.

Good luck with your decision.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Never turn down your first command.

I don't agree as it is entirely subjective to each pilot when facing these decisions. I've turned down 2 jet command opportunities to carry on my chosen career path and I made the right choice (for me) both times, no question.

If you want to move airlines periodically throughout your career or feel your current mob aren't a one-stop-shop then fair enough but jet hours are unfortunately more relevant than TP command hours if you want to work for anyone other than a regional TP operator. If the crap hits the fan on a global scale for the aviation business, and you are relying on TP PIC time to get you a job, then you will be up against an awful lot of people with the same or possibly more relevant hours chasing very few openings. I'd argue then it's a case of sit and wait (years?) or open your wallet and pay for a TR on a jet.

A good situation? No, a command of any sort SHOULD be more important than any form of P2 hours, but this is the modern aviation job market, and I can't see it changing unless EASA imposes USA style minimum experience requirements for a medium jet F/O. It won't ever happen.

[172_driver]

Perhaps not of your concern yet, what's the future lifestyle prospects in the two different jobs? I left a low cost carrier (left seat) for a career airline (right seat) where I can get part time to be with kids, part time for studying, summer holidays, proper seniroty list and a whole range of other benefits. Your situation may be entirely different to mine, it's however a perspective to consider.

[Dufo]

I was TP FO for 7 years, decided to upgrade to CPT on TP three years ago instead of going RH on jet, had a wonderful time, good salary and learned a lot and now I am starting on 747 as FO.


In the end you have to decide what suits you best - type, roster, company stability, quality of life, career progression, salary..


It seems to me that TP stigma is finally slowly fading away.

[gusting_45]

From someone at the opposite end of an aviation career, I agree with 172_driver. Really consider the lifestyle pros and cons. Sitting in an A320 will not compensate you if at the same time you have an unhappy personal life.

If you can, I know its not always possible, make the job fit your life not the other way around.

Good luck.

[NGFellow]

Command time is viewed much more favorably and therefore I would not turn it down. Once you have 1000 hrs PIC then you can consider looking elsewhere.

[PENKO]

Ask one question: do you want to be on the turboprop for the rest of your career? If the answer is no, then do as so many others do every day. Get the job that you want in stead of the command that you will only enjoy for a year.

So many good friends have left an almost guaranteed jet command at my low cost to join a long haul operator because their dream was to fly 'heavy metal'. No one told them not to turn down a command. Choose your path.

[3Greens]

If the 320 operator is for a seniority based airline, then get in as soon as you can. If it's BA, or similar, seniority is king.

[Maxfli]

There is no absolute correct answer to this dilemma.

Is the A320 operator a place where you would be happy spending most of your career?
If so, take a position if offered, especially if it is an airline where progression is governed by seniority.

If it is not a long term choice, will it help you get a job with a carrier where you would like to stay? Probably.

The cost of A320 Training is probably similar to the upgrade training on the ATR, which you will probably have to repay if you want leave within 2-3 years.

I understand the advice to take Command but it is of less value in f you intend moving to an airline where entry is at FO level only.

[liftman]

I always remember a sentence of an old Captain...

" at the end, an aircraft is an aircraft...after few month of glamorous it doesn't matter if is B747 Atr or Airbus, they are just machines. What really matter is lifestyle in the company."

I always try to apply this.

[Iver]

If the Airbus is in a desirable location for you, I would go for it.

[North Shore]

Perhaps not of your concern yet, what's the future lifestyle prospects in the two different jobs? I left a low cost carrier (left seat) for a career airline (right seat) where I can get part time to be with kids, part time for studying, summer holidays, proper seniroty list and a whole range of other benefits. Your situation may be entirely different to mine, it's however a perspective to consider.

What 172 said. Which job will give you the most time off with your friends and family, doing activities that you like? The glamour of flying any aeroplane for a living fades drastically after your umpteenth night in a hotel room miles away from home...

[Farfrompuken]

The company I work for (LH Heavy twins) actually likes ex-TP pilots as generally you get a more rounded pilot than someone who has spent all their time on A320s/737s since cadet training.
I think the TP 'snobbery' is a legacy thing, when jets were a real handful and would bite quickly. Modern jets have fewer vices than their TP counterparts.

That said, an offer of an A320 rating is golden. Not many fly the ATR.....

The ATR is probably more rewarding to fly but you've done that. Go start building a career and get the 'Bus on your licence.

[sun shines every day]

I'd stick with the Jet. Earn some 1000/1500 HRS and go to EVA for quick upgrade

[whitelabel]

Depends also on the company size and ambition that you applied to. Are you still happy flying the ATR or is it time for something else? A320 self sponsoren TR sounds like easyjet. I would seriously consider taking that step. You probably have a few hours on the ATR so you can enter the command proces pretty much straight away. Does the company require lots of upgrades? If its easy then yes for sure. Probably 2-3 years and you have your command on a 320. If the money is kind of the same then its an easy decision. Look at it on the long term.

[Piltdown Man]

Its all about your family, your friends and where you want to live and your working life. I'll shortly be retiring, so I don't have a dog in this fight. But I do know of of many others. I know many people who fly massive shiny jets to far off places, earn a fortune and are as miserable as sin and can not wait to get out. I know people who fly A320s for loco operators and they earn good money but are knackered every night. I know others who fly 737s for a certain gentleman and they like the stable roster but hate the company. I also know another group who rather enjoy flying some rather old and knackered silver and red 737s and they appear to be the happiest of the jet pilots. But the overall, the most satisfied are the TP drivers.

One thing is clear, flying is not what what is was and if it doesn't change its ways it will be one of the jobs (it's certainly not a profession) that is best done by others. The fun has gone, the lifestyle has gone and in its current form it is corrosive on family life. So if you have to fly, work out where you want to live, with whom you want to live and take employment that fits with your goals. Jets are vanity, lifestyle is sanity.

[goodpic]

@Piltdown Man : this is one of the best short summary I've seen recently about the profession. Spot on. (my only comment : don't forget the boys and girls in the cargo world - some cannot take it but the ones who manage to get used to it would never look anywhere else - because of the lifestyle and roster - so we can add them to the "happy camp")


Been there done that - command experience, just like flying experience generally does not only come from the hours but from the number of sectors you do as commander and also from the years, the years spent in the business actually seeing different things and hearing about different things. Keeping this in mind I would never turn down any command opportunity. You will always be able to get a jet job (maybe 1 or 2 years in the RHS first) after flying as a TP captain and I guarantee you will be in a much more solid position as an experienced person when the time comes to switch seats in the jet.

You can always buy a type rating but it is not possible to buy command experience, and keep in mind command experience is also a long term investment.

[SEAMASTER]

Jet command (eventually) opens far more doors globally than TP do, fact ! Be brave step out of your comfort zone, I'm 99.9% sure you won't look back !! (The odd one or two do) !! Everyone who I know who has been faced with your dilemma (including myself) have no regrets after choosing the jet job. Good luck with your decision, you're lucky to have it !!

[Akrapovic]

Quite right regarding lifestyle. .

Play the long game, i.e. - where do you see yourself career-wise? If the TP operation suits you in terms of the lifestyle and pay it gives you, as well as job security etc, then why not stay put? I think most of us tho are ambitious individuals and most, I would say aim for a swept wing jet of some sort, so why tread water in some respects by taking the command?

Put it this way - say a colleague of yours in the same position as you decided to take the FO jet job, while you took the command, and then a few years later you decide to follow suit. Depending on recruitment, your colleague could have years on you regarding seniority and time to command. I've seen it in my airline, and I'm sure this scenario isn't an isolated case.
Worth bearing in mind - you're still young. I was flying ATR at your age, moved to FO jet, then command jet by my mid-30's... I'm now back in the right on LH and still a long way to go before retirement . . . .

All depends on your circumstances tho and market forces are very hard to predict, particularly in this job!

Good luck.

[PlankBoy]

Best advice I ever got (unfortunately a bit late in my career) was to think carefully about where you want to living when you're 60 and then work your decisions backwards from there.

[parabellum]

Never underestimate the value of command time on a multi crew aircraft. An old saying way back when was, "A command on anything is better than FO on anything" and I believe that to be true. Once you have a couple of years of command under your belt you become a much more attractive package to a future employer.

[JackDymomax]

Mmmm, jobs come and go, in the jet world and in the turbo prop world. 5, 10, 20 years time a good home base job could be gone. So you have to live away/commute, would you rather do it on T/P or Jet pay? Never met anyone who regrets going on a jet. Part time is something to look at in the future - pay and time off balance. Also you could always go back, moving on may not be an option.

[zerotohero]

A320 or B737 rating and you should never be out of work.

However I'd take a C152 if I had the mortgage paid.

I'd just say sit down and draw your ideal life plan then plot which avenue is most likely to take you there and that's your answer.

[microkid]

I can see we're making that mistake of trying to distinguish differences between the turboprop or jet lifestyle however we are really talking about regional, low cost, mainline etc. Some of the best airlines around are regional operators who do happen to operate modern glass turboprop aircraft like the ATR 72-600 in addition to regional "jets". I actually see many guys looking to "upgrade" from the low cost carriers to the regionals for a number of reasons already highlighted in this thread (me being one of them). However many don't get accepted as they have no previous turboprop experience. I've personally found that the RATE of pay in a good regional carrier (within Europe) is actually higher than the LCC's which tends to get missed.

The "equipment" you fly can be a separate issue really. The likes of the ATR 72-600, Airbus 320, Boeing 737 etc are all on a level playing field, all good types to have on the licence. I could actually argue that the ATR is the best type to have at the moment for a number of reasons. If you like a challenge then the ATR is actually one of the most difficult aircraft to operate compared to the likes of the DHC8, A320, 737 etc.

So, a command upgrade opportunity on an ATR is as good as any other type out there. Don't be fooled into thinking that moving to an LCC or mainline operator is progression, I can assure you that it's not. You're lucky to be within a regional carrier already, progression is taking command then moving into a training position for example. You'll be in a better position for moving into a better regional airline if it suits.

[microkid]

I've taught many guys coming off other types (both jets & turboprops) and they've all said the ATR is the most difficult aircraft type rating they have done.

Just to name a few of the main issues I've observed:

Operating speeds - Even very experienced ATR drivers will struggle to explain the various speeds on this aircraft, in particular when operating in icing conditions.

Icing Conditions - The ATR has a long list of procedures (both normal & emergency) for entering / leaving atmospheric icing conditions, ice accretion, ground icing, de-icing, you name it.

EFATO / FIRE etc - The single engine profile and/or engine fire at takeoff is relatively complicated. In addition, it's actually the lack of performance which is the real problem. If you're heavy and in icing conditions your speed control / handling during the EFATO has to be spot on. Throw in an autofeather failure and you're really in for a treat.

Powerplant - This is not really specific to the ATR as such as I'm sure the Dash 8 will be similar in this respect but the powerplant abnormal / failure section in the QRH is particularly long. There's simply a lot more that can go wrong when you add in those huge variable pitch fans.

Interestingly, the latest OSD (OEB) now actually requires a minimum experience level (500 hours from memory) before even starting the type rating, otherwise the type rating course is effectively twice as long. This has actually come from ATR as they were struggling to get guys through the type rating.

[Akrapovic]

We're going off-topic here, but unless the ATR has changed drastically since I last flew it, I found it a very easy and forgiving aircraft to operate. All aircraft have their nuances - some more than others, but to say that an ATR is any more difficult to operate than an A320 or 737 is purely a matter of opinion.

[SEAMASTER]

Have flown both and found ATR not as complex as Airbus. Back to the thread 👍

[Airgus]

If by switching to the Jets means a better income... Ironically by self funding the TR you are helping the airline industry in deteriorating the conditions.
Be a CPT in the TP company that you are needed and respected. Let the Jet companies suffer from the need of pilots, let them realize how much value you are for them and let them come back with a proper invitation. At the end a job is a job... You get paid to work not the other way around.