BaroVNAVs are coming...

[Capn Bloggs]

I thought they were dead, but AIC 28/16 (http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/aip/current/sup/a16-h28.pdf) says they coming.

If the example of Horsham is anything to go by, a 190ft reduction to the minima (to circa 300ft AGL) is great. As Darth Vader would say: "Impressive".

http://s23.postimg.org/3l7kalk3f/Horsham_LNAV_VNAV.jpg (http://postimage.org/)

[Mr.Buzzy]

I can only imagine the "required equipment" and "qualification/recency/conduct" thread on pprune.

Bbbzbzbzbzbzbzbzbzbzzzzzzzzz

[The name is Porter]

What happens at Horsham stays at Horsham

[Jenna Talia]

From an FAA fact sheet: LNAV/VNAV utilizes approved vertical guidance offered by WAAS and approach certified baro- VNAV systems

It appears as if WAAS is a requirement and we don't get that fully here. I wonder how this will otherwise be achieved?

[Capn Bloggs]

For "and" read "or".

[27/09]

For BaroVNAV to work you need to know the local QNH. Unless you have that then BaroVNAV is useless, unlike SBAS (WAAS).

[Capn Bloggs]

For BaroVNAV to work you need to know the local QNH. Unless you have that then BaroVNAV is useless...
It's called an AWIS. We do have a few of those scattered around the countryside here in Australia.

[Capn Bloggs]

27/09, where would you get your local QNH from at this place?

http://www.aip.net.nz/pdf/NZHK_45.1_45.2.pdf

[Brakerider]

Approved MET observer on the ground via a company freq?

[27/09]

Capn Bloggs:t's called an AWIS. We do have a few of those scattered around the countryside here in Australia. As we also do here in this side of the ditch, but not everywhere. Like NZHK for example.

Capn Bloggs:27/09, where would you get your local QNH from at this place?

http://www.aip.net.nz/pdf/NZHK_45.1_45.2.pdf Unless you're RPT you cannot.

Brakerider: Approved MET observer on the ground via a company freq? If you happen to have such a service available, all very well for a scheduled operator, no good for Itinerant or Private Ops.

[underfire]

It meets the 250HAT minimum, so no problems with even non-compensated baro

[Capn Bloggs]

so no problems with even non-compensated baro
Relevance?

[mic310]

Does anyone know if this will become a 3D approach or 2D?

[Capn Bloggs]

3D. The minima is a true DA (see para 1.2 of the AIC).

[wishiwasupthere]

At the risk of it being a silly question, do you get a 'glideslope' representation on your HSI with these baro-VNAV approaches?

[Jabawocky]

Bloggs, hard to get any MET data in a lot of places the days, well maybe not the big airports you fly to, but the others :hmm:

[roundaboutway]

Hey Bloggs, what does "true DA" have to do with it being a 3D approach? Aren't NPA's that have advisory vertical guidance calculated and provided by onboard equipment, 3D approches? regardless of a DA or MDA?

[drunk_pilot]

At the risk of it being a silly question, do you get a 'glideslope' representation on your HSI with these baro-VNAV approaches?

Not a silly question. If the aircraft is Baro VNAV capable (PBN S2), then it will have a glide path indication of sorts.

In Collins Proline 21 aircraft, the initial descent to the start of the approach is flown on VNAV PATH, and when the approach mode is armed and the aircraft descends through the capture altitude of the approach, the vertical mode will change from VPTH to VGP (vertical glide path or similar, can't remember the name). The glide path will continue to be indicated on the PFD in the normal manner, such as an ILS. Once the approach altitude has been captured (VPTH becomes VGP), the altitude alerter may be set to the missed approach altitude without disconnecting the vertical mode, much the same as flying an ILS approach once the GS is captured. The consequence of this is that the autopilot will fly straight through the minima if not disconnected. Again, the same as an ILS approach.

[Capn Bloggs]

Aren't NPA's that have advisory vertical guidance calculated and provided by onboard equipment, 3D approches? regardless of a DA or MDA?

They may be considered to be 3D approaches and flown as such, but it's up to Bloggs (or his company) to ensure he doesn't go through the MDA while doing his pseudo 3D approach and missed approach.

A Baro VNAV ie APV has a proper/true/real DA published. No mucking around with adding 50ft to the charted MDA to give a Derived DA and all that bla bla bla.

[Agent86]

Hey Bloggs, have they improved the system lateral tracking of your GPS approaches?
Can't have you landing on the taxiway.
Also LNAV/VNAV either need temp compensation capability or a temp limit. In Aus, the temp limit is not very "limiting" so would be the easiest option (and the only option for some systems). The problem with ISA+ temps is the Vnav invariably brings you in high on profile, necessitating a destabilising dip once visual.
ISA - temps bring you in low, hence the need for temp compensation to keep away from the hard bits beneath you.

I guess if the airport doesn't have an AWIS, it won't be getting an LNAV/VNAV approach.

[Grogmonster]

I'm sorry to say that even proline 21 aircraft won't be able to automatically use these new approaches until they are modified to accept the QNH and the temperature via a VHF link from the approved AWIS to the approved aircraft with a properly trained and approved pilot.. Catch my drift !!!!

Groggy

[27/09]

I have to wonder that the "whole" purpose of establishment of the BaroVNAV approaches is to meet an ICAO recommendation/requirement to have approaches with vertical guidance at each end of the the runway. I'm pretty sure this is what is happening in New Zealand.

It's a relatively cheap/easy way to achieve the requirement without there being the need for any other infrastructure.

The fact such approaches cannot be used by many users doesn't come into it, so long as the approach is there the requirements have been met.

[Agent86]

Groggy,

Now you've done it ..

Watch for your words to appear in the next CAAP:}

This will show we are leading the world in introducing new and innovative procedures, (that don't match anywhere else in the world and will cost far more than would be gained in the safety benefit)

[Capn Bloggs]

Watch for your words to appear in the next CAAP
It would be reasonable to assume that Grog is either quoting the current rules or paraphrasing them. They are therefore hardly likely "to appear" in the next CAAP. :confused:

If realtime QNH and Temp is needed to be piped by VHF into the system then that will throw a spanner in the works... I do note, however that the chart has temperature limits on it. Why is it therefore needed to be piped in automatically?

[Agent86]

Bloggs, Can't find the "tongue-in cheek" emoticon, but I would suspect Groggy was using it and I certainly was.

This is from the policy statement https://infrastructure.gov.au/aviation/atmpolicy/baro-vnav.aspx
APV Baro-VNAV operations require accurate aerodrome QNH (not area QNH) and temperature to be available. The QNH and temperature is measured by sensors on an Automatic Weather Station (AWS) and provided to the aircraft through an Aerodrome Weather Information Service (AWIS) with a VHF broadcast capability (referred to as an AWIS-VHF) or through an Automatic Terminal Information Service (ATIS) generally associated with Control Tower operations.

No mention of "automatic insertion" ..just good old ear-brain-hand coordination.

There is also the list of the proposed airports here http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/wp-content/uploads/Revised-APV_Implementation-Table.pdf

Temp Compensation needed if operating outside the Temp limits (at least that's how it is done elsewhere)

[Capn Bloggs]

I've been Sciolised...again! :{

Thanks for those docs, Agent 86, interesting.

[Capn Bloggs]

Karratha 550ft down to 350ft. Impressive!

http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/aip/current/sup/s17-h15.pdf

[UnderneathTheRadar]

So now that all these approaches have been published - should they be working yet? Tried my first approach (in VMC) yesterday with a BaroVNAV and nothing happened - Garmin 430W stayed in LNAV only.

The department of infrastructure website doesn't seem to indicate if there is a process to turn it on or do they just work after being designed?

UTR

[alphacentauri]

Garmin 430W is not a BaroVNAV capable system

[UnderneathTheRadar]

Garmin 430W is not a BaroVNAV capable system

Well that'd do it then :\ Seems crazy that an approach chart that says "LNAV/VNAV" doesn't work on a GPS who's manual says for "L/VNAV - Lateral Navigation and Vertical Navigation (LNAV/VNAV) Approach. Fly to LNAV/VNAV minimums". But who am I to say....

Just went and did some more reading! Based on the policy website, that states:

The introduction of Approach to Landing Procedures with Vertical Guidance (APV) has been identified by the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) as an internationally significant measure to reducing accidents involving Controlled Flight into Terrain (CFIT) for all ICAO States.

One of the means of achieving APV is through the implementation of Barometric Vertical Navigation (Baro-VNAV) approach procedures.

I then have to wonder how many aircraft in Australia will be BaroVNAV capable and how many of those have suffered a propensity to CFIT over the years.

Stretching the memory, only CFIT on an aircraft of any size would have been Lockhard River - and it had a 155XL on board if I recall. Some discussion on other threads of the RFDS King Air (?) at YMTG - Collins Proline (I assume) wouldn't have been capable.

Who else is likely to get benefit? REX/QLink for YMTG, YMIA etc - all sounds reasonable but doesn't fit the policy description of reducing CFITs. Does fit a policy of reducing landing MDA - but if that's the case - who should be paying?

UTR

[alphacentauri]

Short answer is, you need an integrated air data computer to be BaroVnav capable. Your Garmin 430W can fly SBAS VNAV which is currently under trial and hopefully rolled out in a few yrs.

So SBAS supports most light end GA and BaroVNAV supports the higher end market. I dont think S340's are capable and only Proline Kingair. Your arguments around Baro are relevant. Baro does nothing for most of GA and wouldn't have prevented YLHR.