BA cabin crew to strike

[scr1]

British Airways crew vote for Heathrow strike - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38319538)

Thoughts please

[vctenderness]

If they do actually take action I don't believe it will be effective. Of 4,000 mixed fleet crew only 50% are members of unite. Mixed fleet is only 15% of the total cabin crew work force.

Therefore it would not have the same devastating effect that the last strike involving BASSA members had.

I think stories of crew sleeping in their cars because they can't afford the fuel to drive home are a tad exaggerated.

[Hotel Tango]

From some of the comments I read recently, I'm not so sure pax will notice the difference! :E

[tb10er]

Note to self

Avoid BA - I will book with a reliable airline - their loss, my money

[pax britanica]

Before people slip into the default mode of Blackadders Sir Talbot Buxomly people should think a little bit about the very low wages mixed fleet and therefore very junior staff get paid. They are young and come from a generation who have seen their actual and real wages decline over the last decade and I for one can believe that soem have had to sleep in their cars .

Do we really want BA to be cabin crewed entirely by Slovakians just for the sake of a few quid on the ticket . twenty years ago working for BA in any front line role in Flight and cabin crew, Line Maintenance, Check in /passenger services were decent career jobs, all thats gone now so they can pay the senior management a fortune. It is the way of the world but try not to be so nasty to them

[Mr Mac]

Pax Britanica
Having had dealings with BA current crop of air crew this year, I would welcome Slovakians with open arms if I was WW. I agree with the comments you make about wages, but there is a fundamental attitude issue with some BA staff and I do not think it is a financial issue, but a customer service one or lack there of. I have not used them for many years, but did make a journey down and back to BA, and unfortunately they did not seem to have improved on either leg of the journey so will not be spending my, or my companies money with them again unless unavoidable.

[expurser]

Before people slip into the default mode of Blackadders Sir Talbot Buxomly people should think a little bit about the very low wages mixed fleet and therefore very junior staff get paid. They are young and come from a generation who have seen their actual and real wages decline over the last decade and I for one can believe that soem have had to sleep in their cars .

Do we really want BA to be cabin crewed entirely by Slovakians just for the sake of a few quid on the ticket . twenty years ago working for BA in any front line role in Flight and cabin crew, Line Maintenance, Check in /passenger services were decent career jobs, all thats gone now so they can pay the senior management a fortune. It is the way of the world but try not to be so nasty to them

You are absolutely right Pax. In my day it was a well paid job with great benefits, decent time off and a good career structure. You felt proud to do the job, you had decent rest and, usually went to work with a feeling of pride and left with a feeling of satisfaction. We really could call ourselves 'the worlds favourite'.

These days I don't know how these young guys and girls do it, appalling salary, minimum rest, extra long duty days and the threat of dismissal hanging no over their heads for the slightest infraction.

BA has made a rod for its own back, it has split CC into the 'them' and 'us'. These MF folk do the same job as others yet you would not believe the difference in their terms and conditions. Yes, CC themselves can take part of the blame, the rot set in in 1989 when BA financed and supported a rival union and split crew down the middle.

It seems to me the attitude now is, 'well if we burn them out, there are always plenty of others to do their job'. That, sadly is probably true, but let's remember what they are there for. Not to sell M&S meals as the next plan is, turning BA into some sort of 'Orange Long Haul'. I for one wish them well in their action, all they want is a decent pay rise to do a responsible and difficult job. At the end of the day, the airline is that one that will ultimately suffer by treating its staff in such a way. It's no wonder people say they attitude onboard is not what it should be, I am not surprised. You need to treat your employees with respect if you want the same back from them.

And finally, sadly some of those stories of some crew sleeping in cars and borrowing money from relatives to buy new uniform shoes are true.

[pax britanica]

Mr M
I understand your point and indeed have experienced plenty of indifferent service on BA on all routes from LGW to Bordeaux down the back to F London to Jo burg. But I did think the mixed fleet people had either not grown up under the occasionally poisonous attitudes of very long term staff. I just think it is a shame in this country where we always blame the staff who strike or their unions but never hold the management to account for failing to manage a peaceful and productive environment.
These people are badly paid, are seen as an enemy by upper management who spend their day trying to reduce their roles and wages and are regularly told they are worthless and that they could and should be replaced. So, how are some of them going to think when they come to work

[tonker]

If Walsh reduced his wage to a paltry £1,000,000 per year, you could give all the 3,500 staff a bonus of £3,500 to help them through the winter.

[4468]

If they do actually take action I don't believe it will be effective. Of 4,000 mixed fleet crew only 50% are members of unite. Mixed fleet is only 15% of the total cabin crew
They don't need to "actually take action," and I hope they never need to. Before any dates are even announced, it's all over the news that BA cabin crew can strike any time after the 21st Dec. Customers will already be factoring that into their travel arrangements.

This issue is already costing BA money.

IAG is a company that will make +£2billion this year, and will pay it's management team eye-watering sums of money! There's money for pretty much anything in BA! EXCEPT paying the (generally young and keen) staff that interact most with customers, a decent wage!

Why?

Just because they can!! If 'they' don't like it, there's thousands more who'd do this job for half of nothing!

Get 'em in. Burn 'em out. Then sling 'em out!

Bonuses all round, and another yacht for the fat cats!

Wonder which other BA work groups will be volounteering to work in the cabin this time round??

[Station_Calling]

If Walsh reduced his wage to a paltry £1,000,000 per year, you could give all the 3,500 staff a bonus of £3,500 to help them through the winter.

Really? He earns that much???

£3,500 * 3,500 =£12,250,000...

[tonker]

Yep it should have read 2,000 staff.

[crewmeal]

Expurser I echo every word you say. I was one of the lucky ones to work for BOAC and then BA. You had a brilliant lifestle and were proud to work for a decent company that actullay cared for its employees. It was a career to be proud of. OK so we didn't have long range aircraft to take us 7000 miles non stop but when the 744 came out there were long range payments which made up for for loosing Middle East layovers.

Back in those days paassengers and crews used to respect each other. These days we have the low cost carriers to thank for the demise of service levels and standards. Yes the world is changing and us oldies need to keep up with the pace of life, but at what cost?

I will never understand why BA have to have different contracts for cabin crew. It's just inviting trouble.

[cessnapete]

BA will reap what they sow in paying very low cabin crew wages.
The present cabin service on my recent flights has been variable to say the least.
Recently Qantas Business Classs connecting to Lhr BA A380, fortunate to be bumped into First Class.
The QF flight was on a full aircraft with 12 Business seats. An immaculately turned out CSM (27 years service QF) dealt with the front cabin on his own, no other person in the galley. Great food and service efficiently and professionally carried out. Small things stood out, the wine service , full knowledge of the product, and presented and served from the bottle at the seat.

The BA service did not compare. The A380 cabin service procedure doesn't help by serving from the front rearwards by one crew member, meaning a long wait if you sit in the rear seats (40 mins to get the first drink)
The crew member in our isle less than immaculately turned out, re QF, hairbrush?, and either the uniform too small or she two sizes too large.
The wine service."Do you want some wine with your meal luv?" No knowledge of the product just referred to the menu. Served from the galley in the glass, could have been anything.
Small points but not what you'd expect if you'd paid a large amount of money for the FC seat.
I realise the BA procedures contributed to the poor service on this occasion, but as far as the crew members performance, BA obviously get what they pay for.
I would choose another carrier next time.

[ChicoG]

Can I just ask how many duty hours cabin crew can expect to pull in a year? Because if they did, e.g., a 160 hour month, then 3 quid an hour makes almost six thousand pounds p.a., meaning a salary of around 18,000 a year. And am I right in assuming that "Flying Hours" starts from the time you pitch up at the airport?.

Because if so, this is not bad at all.

Is this just the old BASSA grumps trying to use the masses to fight their own battles again?

Either way, Walsh knows how to handle them. Let them go on strike, I'm sure a lot of cabin crew remember getting led down the garden path last time, and I would question Unite's appetite to subsidise BASSA's churlishness one more time, as well as much of the cabin crew's appetite to do it just before Christmas.

Only one winner here.

[PDR1]

I can get decent service from restaurant waiters who are only paid £7/hr to £10/hr - it's essentially the same job, so why should cabin staff be paid more than that?

[Andy_S]

IAG is a company that will make +£2billion this year, and will pay it's management team eye-watering sums of money! There's money for pretty much anything in BA! EXCEPT paying the (generally young and keen) staff that interact most with customers, a decent wage!

Why?

Just because they can!! If 'they' don't like it, there's thousands more who'd do this job for half of nothing!

Get 'em in. Burn 'em out. Then sling 'em out!

Bonuses all round, and another yacht for the fat cats!

I’m not getting into the rights and wrongs of this particular dispute here, but this sort of attitude is simply ill informed.

Why is it that being a profitable company is seen as somehow unworthy? And that the only beneficiaries are “fat cats” whose sole motivation is “another yacht”?

IAG, the parent company of BA, is owned by its shareholders. The vast majority of those shareholders are financial institutions and fund managers who invest their own customers money in IAG the expectation of a decent return on that investment. So ultimately the “fat cats” are ordinary people, and the “yachts” are their savings and pensions.

IAG exist to make money for their shareholders. That is their purpose. How they go about that, including the balance between maintaining an effective workforce and keeping costs under control, is something that could be debated all day long.

[Chesty Morgan]

I can get decent service from restaurant waiters who are only paid £7/hr to £10/hr - it's essentially the same job, so why should cabin staff be paid more than that?


Do your cabin staff only serve food?

[PDR1]

No, they do drinks as well, and see me too/from my seat, like all waiting staff.

[Cyber Bob]

With an attitude like that PDR 1, I don't think the crew will in any sort of a hurry to save your sorry a$$ should you take a turn for the worse at 38000 ft. Regardless of the rights and wrongs, all crew deserve more respect than that.

On the subject, some other carriers may view this as karma seeing as they've had the "we're considerably better than you" and "we earn twice as much as you" spouted year on year, over the past 30 years. Clearly not the case any longer.

[Cyber Bob]

You need to re:read it Islandlad. I was pointing out the fact all CC serve more of a purpose than just serving T&C and escorting people to their seats. The crew with my outfit are very well trained and a few months ago I witnessed them in full CPR mode desperately trying to save the life of a customer. I was just highlighting to the uninitiated / plain ignorant* (* amend to suit) that the cabin crew are more valuable on board our aircraft that some think. I know that if I'm taken I'll, that there are 10 or so highly trained crew to hopefully sort me out.

Threat? - don't be silly. Just highlighting the ignorance of others'.

As one ex training Captain once told me early doors in my career, " Your steak can kiss the rim of a toilet before being presented with the sweetest of smiles". That advice has served me well.

[PDR1]

With an attitude like that PDR 1, I don't think the crew will in any sort of a hurry to save your sorry a$$ should you take a turn for the worse at 38000 ft. Regardless of the rights and wrongs, all crew deserve more respect than that.


Who is being disrepectful? I am friendly and polite to all waiters and waitresses. As Islandlad says, it's just not realistic to expect megabuck employment packages for jobs that add only centibuck value to (a) the employer and (b) the customer.

And given that my experience of BA cabin crew has found them arrogant, unhhelpful and rude (second only to AA in deservingness of a sound instructional thrashing) I remain to be convinced that they deserve salaries higher than (say) the waiting staff in the Hard Rock Cafe off Times Square (whose eagerness, helpfulness and enthusiasm add significant value to the evening). Virgin, Singapore and Delta CC were much better, so BA staff need to wind their necks in a bit IMHO.

[Cyber Bob]

PDR - I have no issue with you point regards to attitudes. You get that everywhere. My point is that the CC are very well trained and serve more of a purpose than serving T&C

Islandlad. No not food poisoning. It was a cardiac arrest with the crew performing CPR and using a de fib.

"3 or 4 CC on a 737 800". Couldn't answer that, we don't have tiddlers in my outfit.

The point my ex training Capt was making was that irrespective of whether being in the sharp end or not and regardless of our role, everyone deserves to be treated with respect.

[Cyber Bob]

No-ones being nasty, I'm not. I'm just pointing out that most, if not all crew, are highly trained beyond that of the obvious customer service. When you see 6 crew hands on trying to save someone's life with equipment strewn everywhere, you might appreciate what I'm saying. Obviously, not everyone gets to see or experience that and let's hope not. That said, it happens fairly regularly in LH.

PDR's experiences and comments on the attitude of crew he has met has resulted in him having a blinkered opinion of the real value of the cabin crew. I'm not taking about pay and salaries, I'm talking about the training and ability to look after someone in need or save a life especially when time is crucial

We're trying to rid the industry of this attitude as it's clearly not helpful or appreciated. Let's not cloud opinions based on whether someone smiles or not when offering a drink. Still doesn't make them less capable of saving a life.

I trust this concludes the discussion

[Cyber Bob]

I'm not. I took issue with PDR's personal opinion of cabin crew and responded accordingly. My argument isn't centred around pay or conditions. My argument is that PDR 1 totally underestimates the worth of a cabin crew member within their onboard role. To which, I have answered.

If you want me to express an opinion on BA MF terms and conditions, just say so. That said, that's about of much interest to me as your salary t&c's if you get my drift.

We're done I think

[PDR1]

PDR - I have no issue with you point regards to attitudes. You get that everywhere. My point is that the CC are very well trained and serve more of a purpose than serving T&C


Well trained? IIRC the course has no academic entry requirements and lasts less than three months. Not exactly gruelling!

Yes, they do more than wait tables, but so do plenty of others. Swimming pool attendants do as much first aid training, as do many supermarket shelf-stackers and waiting staff in the larger chains. As far as I can see the only real justification for paying more than basic wages would be the anti-social work patterns, but again many shift workers have similarly anti-social patterns.

[crewmeal]

£55K up to £75K to serve tea and coffee + massive FSP deals. Ryan and Easy thought that a little excessive. And you don't think that should have changed? The average is down to about £28K so not too bad ... except the old hands still keep theirs.


I think your figures are a tad exaggerated. I don't know of any cabin crew that earn up to £75K, however there were generous increments at the time which obviously help towards anyone's salary.

[TightSlot]

Well... everybody has been reporting everybody else this morning, so I've deleted a few posts that added little except heat to the conversation. Back on topic please folks.

[ChicoG]

When you see 6 crew hands on trying to save someone's life with equipment strewn everywhere, you might appreciate what I'm saying.

My company offers First Aid training to all employees, and we have Defib machines dotted all over the place.

There is nothing magical about being trained in how to do CPR and use a Defribillator. More employers should offer it.

[Cyber Bob]

Fair point to a degree Chico however not in a metal tube, miles high in the sky with the nearest hospital potentially being hours away even if that airport can Handle that Aircraft type. Valid point about more employers jumping on board which I think is improving.

Tightslot - Ever the voice of reason. No worries

[pax britanica]

I just think it is very sad that people here seem to glory in the idea of airline staff being employed on rubbish contracts with crap pay.
These people generally do a decent days work-they don't lie for a living like journos, they dont steal your pension money like banks and financial advisors and insurance companies, they don't run the NHS into the ground for the sake of their bonus like NHS managers, they don't chase ambulances or rip people off with fees like lawyers. They don't impact your lives much at all.

Its a free country-just about and if they want to strike to draw attention to their situation they are entitled to. If we keep on depressing the wages and conditions of people in jobs where they are one of several thousand like these folks, Amazon workers, council contractors you are creating a society out of Dickens where the majority cannot afford even the sinmplest luxury and that in itself is enough to destroy overall prosperity

[MaximumPete]

I started my career operating the Vickers Viscount in two roles, flight deck and cabin crew. I still think this taught me one heck of a lot about life in the industry. And as a bonus it was great fun, always being the 'baby' of the crew. Perhaps this should be made compulsory??

[flight_mode]

CC earning £21- £25k and striking in the very same industry that pilots pay to fly. Madness.

[T250]

They're not earning £21-25k!

[flight_mode]

If they're earning 12k my point still stands - it's madness

[vctenderness]

I read earlier that cabin crew will strike for 24 hours on 25th December. Not sure how accurate but probably reasonable assumption.

[GS-Alpha]

How much do you think they are earning T250? Also, what do you think would be a fair salary for the job?

[4468]

Sky News are saying Xmas Day, and Boxing Day for the first strikes. BA "determined the strike will fail"!

Hope Unite have explained to these young folks how these things play out!

For example, they WILL be threatened with the sack. Though to be honest, I suspect this particular section of the workforce will be far less concerned with that prospect, than most BA have previously dealt with.

I still support them though!!!

[Arfur Dent]

LCC are the cause. Directors of companies like BA and Cathay have allowed themselves to be ruled by accountants and, as someone just said, you get what you pay for.

[fincastle84]

It's such a shame for these youngsters who are being used as cannon fodder by Len McClunky & his bunch of Unite thugs.

The last time that they tried to take on WW they lost as they will again. :ugh:

It's just a shame that 1,000s of pax will be caused unnecessary worry & stress & the CC members will have their careers ruined by union militancy.

[nguba]

MF earn more than £12k. That's the basic salary and then they are paid an hourly rate for the duration of their trip and receive bonuses for attendance etc.

Soundings are that a lot of the union concerns are more to do with the rostering and rest periods rather than pay itself.

It seems that calling a strike on Christmas Day and Boxing Day is more to do with putting PR pressure on BA rather than causing disruption. A very reduced schedule operates on Christmas Day in any event and BA seem pretty confident they can cover most of the schedule, including all long-haul flights.

[4468]

A very reduced schedule operates on Christmas Day in any event and BA seem pretty confident they can cover most of the schedule, including all long-haul flights.
"Most of the schedule" won't be good enough for some customers. They will be making their travel choices on the basis that BA's schedule could be disrupted. Some shorthaul flights will be cancelled before the strike days. This will already be costing BA money.

Bear in mind the recent 'Which' survey in which BA are slipping down the customer satisfaction tables. That's BEFORE any industrial unrest!

It might be reasonable to ponder why????? Or who is responsible??

I imagine T&Cs on mixed fleet, might be a reflection of something much more significant for this particular company??

[expurser]

Yep, I may well be one of the old 'grumps' who did the job during the best of times, but...

We were payed very well but we stayed and made a career of it. We knew the job inside out, we were fully conversant of the menu, the wine etc. in F and J. We called PAX by their titles and had great conversations with them. In those days we were sent on wine and cookery courses in order to improve the service. We went on paid language courses, I learnt both French and German. All in order to improve service in our job. We were proud of our job and, I think, gave great service. Oh, and we also saved a few lives and delivered a few baby's too. I agree, BA is pretty poor these days, Quantas and Emirates are better, but I am not surprised. Treat you staff badly and it's no surprise they are poor, it's not a career anymore it's a job to do for a year or two then leave when you are burnt out. That is the point I am trying to make. Treat your staff with respect, pay them a good wage and give them a career structure. Then, and only then, will you get CC doing a great job and bringing repeat business.

And one last point, it's not like other jobs as some are trying to point out. It's physically exhausting. You are working at altitude for hours on end, the relentless jet lag plays havoc with your body. You are away so much you have little private life, you are a barman, waiter, security guard, nurse, travel agent, nursemaid, tour guide, handyman,, translator etc. All rolled up into one. Most folk get to go home every night to their families and friends. They don't. They work longer hours than most, at constant risk of disruption and to do that whilst treated poorly? I don't think so

[HZ123]

BA, Swissport and the trains, not working whatever the cause a typical holiday period for UK PLC!

[vctenderness]

I am wondering about the £3 per hour flight pay. This is not something I am familiar with but it was being discussed before I hung my wings up.

It was supposed to be for the entire itinary not just the flying hours. So on a 3 day nightstop it would be from check in to debrief.

Can anyone confirm this?

[PC767]

Confirmed.

MF are more expensive to send on some routes, mostly India.

Their T&Cs are poor. Santiago from LHR, night stop then back with 2 days off. Beyond tiring.

'They knew what they were getting into when they applied for the job.' Perhaps like everything else these days it was all fluff and no substance. Much like BA flights, the reality rarely matches the promise.

[crewmeal]

Most carriers who pay flight pay use block times and not reporting times. So if you have a 2 hour delay for what ever reason with pax on board you don't get a penny for it, even though you might be selling scratch cards or whatever.

With BA short haul charging for food starting next month, will the crews be getting commission of those delectable M&S filled sandwiches?

[pax britanica]

But to alarge degree it comes back in all these situations to a general feeling of unhappiness. And most of them have a point to some degree .I don't for example notice anyone on here saying why are VS pilots talking about striking after all planes fly themselves these days and therefore the job is very easy and doesnt deserve better pay and conditions and as for this fatigue bit well you try doing a ten hour day with 2 hours on the M25 at each end blah blah blah...

No the problem is that close on ten years of dishonesty and unethical and often useless managements (and the Union management are included in that) focussed only on increasing their salary , bonuses and stock options has gradually begun to catch up with UK Plc with far too many people earning inadequate salaries for any sort of life especially if you live near or commute to LHR. People have learned that in todays world you get paid not what you are worth but what you can screw out of employer-hence TFL drivers get big money because no tube no London. Also people in these age groups have seen city folk bring the country to its knees and yet still earn big bucks because in their case as has been demonstrated for the most part they lose our money not their own.

Its like the invisible Surrey and Sussex Tory MPs who never said a word about the Southern Trains fiasco but as soon as the Union really do put the screws on its ban strikes and curb union power.

And as I have said before I think it is sad and pretty hypocritical for many on here to lambast people on very low wages who mostly doa decent job and most certainly are not part of that section of BA CC who we have all experienced at times who may by some measures may have been overpaid

[pax britanica]

i dont see any difference between my comment on being over paid and yours, I just didnt know where they were potentially being over paid and by what measures . All you did was essentially explain where so I am not sure whay i lost youat that point.
And if we look at the last 70 years it is a failure of British management -as I pointed out I include union management (leaders) in that by mixing politics with member issues in the same way that instead of building sustainable and positive relations with employees owners have taken every opportunity to make their life worse .Its a sorry tale on both sides

[TightSlot]

My experience... FWIW is that Management tend to get the Unions that they deserve, and vice versa.

Oh, these glistening pearls of wisdom! ;)

[TOM100]

If that nasty McClunky had meaningfully negotiated with BA during the last dispute there may not have been a mixed fleet or one that looks very different. Because of their intransigence and poor leadership from BASSA it just got imposed by WW. So imho he and BASSA are partly the architects of this.

I do think these poor b*ggers from MF are being used in Unites and McClunkys bigger political game and could be left high and dry.

I can't see Willy backing down he can still operate a big chunk of the network and knows the MF crew can't afford to stay out long as they are not on the inflated salaries of the 'old' crew.

My only fear is the other crew who are part of BASSA could be encouraged for a 'sickout' (they have form in this area) to save Unites face.

Does McClunky learn nothing about public support when you plan industrial action at Christmas (all the negative headlines last time).

If only they had negotiated meaningfully last time - Unite you reap what you sow.

See they are going to ACAS tomorrow now.

I feel for these crew represented by these muppets.

[SpannerInTheWerks]

The other side of the coin:

1.Work harder at school;
2. Choose a different career; and
3. If you must strike don't choose the Christmas period.

Striking at Christmas does nothing to further your cause and gives management the opportunity to gain the high ground ...

i presume there'll be no BA advert running showing lots of happy families meeting and greeting over the Christmas period.

How times have changed - I always thought the ambitions of cabin crew were to travel the World and marry a pilot ... now they want a decent wage as well ... there's no pleasing some folk

[SpannerInTheWerks]

Tongue in cheek ... I know more cabin crew with master's degrees than in any other profession ...

However, the travelling public must be your first concern over (selfish) self-interest ... ways and means, but I don't think Christmas is it ... :)

There's enough trouble already with small boys playing with big trains ...

[nguba]

Just to clarify that Willie Walsh (as CEO of IAG) will not be involved in this. Industrial relations are the responsibility of the operating airline CEOs.

Alex Cruz is now CEO of BA (who is an unknown quantity as far as response to industrial action at BA is concerned) will be leading this.

BA's response to the strike announcement on Friday (making it absolutely clear the strike would fail) actually sounded far more combative than when BASSA was intent on driving the airline off a cliff.

MF do have legitimate concerns around some of the rostering (witness the very different response to other workgroups in the airline to the BASSA dispute of 2009) and hopefully this is resolved without industrial action.

[TOM100]

Trust me he may not be leading the negotiations but he is involved and knows the history that Alex does not.

[nguba]

BA has said today that they do not plan to cancel any flights during the strike period.

[4468]

BA has said today that they do not plan to cancel any flights during the strike period.
They may be correct. Let's hope they are, then no customer will be disrupted. A good outcome for all.

In the meantime, BA can't be certain which of it's crew will turn up for work/call in sick etc. Contingency plans will have to be put in place, which will undoubtedly cost money, even if they are not used.

[GS-Alpha]

"We reject Unite's claims about Mixed Fleet's earnings and have offered an independent audit of our pay data over the last 12 months to support our statement that Mixed Fleet cabin crew working full-time earn more than £21,000 a year.

"The pay data shows that the range of earnings paid out to full-time Mixed Fleet crew between September 1 2015 and August 31 2016 was £21,151.35 - £27,356.30."

British Airways 'to deliver full Christmas service despite strikes' | London Evening Standard (http://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/british-airways-to-deliver-full-christmas-service-despite-strikes-a3424041.html)

[vctenderness]

Standard practice for Unite - plead poverty! I remember the same tosh coming out of them during the 2010 dispute and I know 100% fact that back then a CSD on WW would earn around £65k all up. If you took married rosters in to account that would produce a joint income well in excess of £100k pa.

[4468]

CSD on WW would earn around £65k all up
I suppose it's possible?

However, that's just like saying, co-pilots in BA earn in excess of £100k. Or a household income in excess of £200k should they, (like your CSD) be married to a similarly qualified spouse!

That's not because it's 'market rate', (it isn't!) but just because that's what's agreed between the employer and the employee. (via their unions)

So what's your point???

Of course new SCCMs now earn half your CSD's figure, and have more onerous office duties/responsibilities! Why shouldn't we just accept pilot's pay going the same way?

After all, 'market rate' should apply to all employees shouldn't it?

[GS-Alpha]

4468, I think the point being made was that it is Unite's standard practice to considerably understate the salaries of its members in order to attempt to gain public sympathy.

Why shouldn't we just accept pilot's pay going the same way?
I think most pilots accepted that over a decade ago! The entire reason why BA mixed fleet exists is because BASSA didn't accept that ever. They were just saying no right up until the end, which forced BA to completely halt recruitment onto the old terms and conditions; setting up mixed fleet with the step change to market rate they'd been attempting to achieve gradually for well over a decade.

[vctenderness]

4468 I didn't say it was wrong I was, in fact, a recipient of those salaries. The point I was making was explained by GSA in his post it's Unite's standard gambit tell everyone that BA crew are living in almost Dickensian poverty, sleeping in their cars and living on tins of cold baked beans.

In reality BA crew are well rewarded. However from my knowledge of the Mixed Fleet agreements they work hard for it and improvements to their T&C's would be preferable to a small,increase in BA's 2% pay offer.

[4468]

vctenderness
Standard practice for Unite - plead poverty! I remember the same tosh coming out of them during the 2010 dispute
I'm sure you will educate me if I've misremembered, but I don't recall CSD's salaries being mentioned by Unite, during the 2010 strikes. Though I imagine BA may well have referred to them??

In any event, there are precious few parallels between that disagreement and this. Those personnel and these.

[vctenderness]

Cabin crew salaries in general were a major part of the dispute.

[virgin mary]

Lots of support being shown around LHR for the strikers from other staff and passengers, I would say BA's claims of "All planned flights will be operating as normal" are a little far fetched!

I imagine it takes quite a bit of courage to take part in a strike with this much publicity, but when you have very little to lose it probably makes the decision easier. I hear that the strike pay of £60/day the union are paying them will probably put more money in their pockets even after losing 2 days pay for stirking! (surley this can't be true?)

[fincastle84]

Just like the last strikes, the cc are like WW1 canon fodder being used by Unite's Red Len as a weapon against both UK industry & the government. As sure as eggs is eggs the cc will be the only losers; after all they knew what they were signing when they were recruited. :ugh:

It's such a shame because they are a smashing bunch of girls & guys who carry out their duties perfectly & in the unlikely event of an emergency will be essential to their pax' chances of survival.

Our flight to CPT next month is a mixed fleet route & as always I hope to be able to thank the cc for a pleasant, trouble free journey.

[virgin mary]

Yes, they knew what they were signing up for, but now most of them have decided to show they have the backbone to stand up and ask for a totally justified improvment to these paltry terms and conditions. And It would appear they have the support of most BA and other airline staff groups and their own passengers! The voices against this particular dispute seem to be very few and far between.

Given the huge disparity of pay between the new and old contracts, this group of staff were always going to one day get organised and cause BA a problem. This is a dispute entirley created by greedy BA management, and I would argue it will be all of BA that suffers from the negative impact and not only the CC, who sadly, actually have very little to lose.

[crewmeal]

Lots of support being shown around LHR for the strikers from other staff and passengers, I would say BA's claims of "All planned flights will be operating as normal" are a little far fetched!

Not sure about long haul but BA have subcharted Titan and Vueling for some short haul routes.

[Pontius]

This is a dispute entirley created by greedy BA management

No this dispute is a result of the lower pay of MF crew brought into being as a direct answer to BASSA's intransigence and thinking that the cabin crew, at the time, were somehow immune from producing the same cost reductions as the rest of the company. BASSA's primaddona attitude is why there exists an A and B scale and is not because of the standard 'lefty' shout of 'greedy management' or 'fat cats'. I'm no management lover but blame needs to be placed at the correct door and, in this case, BASSA is the culprit.

[EGLD]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/01/11/13/3C03ED1400000578-4109484-image-a-1_1484141711911.jpg

[The Member]

I have just seen from yesterdays Travelmole website that BA have offered an Independent Audit showing that ALL MF Cabin crew earned more than 21K in the last 12 months!
Perhaps the striking MF members should attach their pay slips to their placards to refute this - me thinks that BA statement is far more accurate than Unites!

[fincastle84]

Yes, they knew what they were signing up for, but now most of them have decided to show they have the backbone to stand up and ask for a totally justified improvment to these paltry terms and conditions. And It would appear they have the support of most BA and other airline staff groups and their own passengers! The voices against this particular dispute seem to be very few and far between.

Given the huge disparity of pay between the new and old contracts, this group of staff were always going to one day get organised and cause BA a problem. This is a dispute entirley created by greedy BA management, and I would argue it will be all of BA that suffers from the negative impact and not only the CC, who sadly, actually have very little to lose.
Well if they have so little to lose, why did they join in the first place, surely they are not that stupid!

[fincastle84]

I have just seen from yesterdays Travelmole website that BA have offered an Independent Audit showing that ALL MF Cabin crew earned more than 21K in the last 12 months!
Perhaps the striking MF members should attach their pay slips to their placards to refute this - me thinks that BA statement is far more accurate than Unites!
You can't possibly be suggesting that Unite could be telling porkies?

[fincastle84]

No this dispute is a result of the lower pay of MF crew brought into being as a direct answer to BASSA's intransigence and thinking that the cabin crew, at the time, were somehow immune from producing the same cost reductions as the rest of the company. BASSA's primaddona attitude is why there exists an A and B scale and is not because of the standard 'lefty' shout of 'greedy management' or 'fat cats'. I'm no management lover but blame needs to be placed at the correct door and, in this case, BASSA is the culprit.
A certain feeling of deja vu old chap!!

[virgin mary]

It is worth noting that when a Cabin Crew member, Flight Crew member or any other individual that travels for purposes of employment and receives meal allowances for the time they are away at their employers behest, goes to a bank for a mortgage, the bank will exclude any down route meal allowances from their gross salary calculation, and this typically (and correctly) means they have to reduce their declared salary by 6-8K per annum. Some airlines (in agreement with HMRC) will not even show these allowances on a payslip as it is agreed by all parties (unions, employers and HMRC) that meal allowances are not part of your salary as it is spent down route on meals etc.

So BA's claim that all MF crew received over £21K in the last year is a little disingenuous. New entrant basic salary is around £13K. They “might” qualify for a small quarterly bonus totalling another £1K. They do the job because they like it and are generally very good at it. The BA brand is attractive to customers and employees alike and they all want it protected and enhanced. You cannot denounce a group of people for wanting to improve things or simply just asking for a fair days pay, for a fair days work. Currently BA are just not paying this staff group fairly. I haven't even looked at their rostering practices yet, but I hear they are not very fair either!

I think this dispute, as always, will turn into a battle of words and wills, just like the last one. And yes, perhaps BASSA did not cover themselves in glory back then, but but neither did BA. I would also argue that BA never ever play with a straight bat, and I would believe unite over BA any day! The claims by BA that all planned flights were flown, no CSM was on strike, 70% of MF crew turned up for work and MF crew all take home over £21K, can ALL BE PROVED FALSE with a little digging. I do wonder why unite are not (to my knowledge) highlighting these untruths to the media, but perhaps they are just concentrating on making sure their members are aware of the facts and not worrying to much about public opinion, as strikers are almost always seen as wrong in the eye of the great British public.

The big question is; how long before we see Mixed Fleet Unite and BASSA "really" working together. And I don't mean onboard the aircraft.

[TopBunk]

Hmmm....sounds like we have 'son (or daughter) of Holley' with us.

I feel for the boys and girls of MF, but, imho, they are being led up the garden path (once again) by Unite for Unite's and the TUC's political struggles against the Tory government - just look at the strikes going on right now - they are all being coordinated imo.

The boys and girls of MF are inexperienced in the ways of IA and have no understanding of Cruz/Walsh and their mentality. The second set of strike days are most likely going to fizzle out and Cruz will likely look to recoup the cost of the strike from MF, just like after Holley's last self-aggrandizement scheme.

In the meantime, MF will have lost staff travel for holidays and their quarterly bonus while the fat cats at Unite will feather their nests and gain kudos with the TUC for being able to deliver lambs to the slaughter for political gain.

[Reverserbucket]

Originally posted by virgin mary: And It would appear they have the support of most BA and other airline staff groups and their own passengers!I disagree. As a very regular and loyal BA customer with two trips (one business, one leisure) booked during the 19-21st I am currently in the process of cancelling and rebooking with another operator. Along with the Southern Rail and Tube strike this week, the disruption the Unions have caused to fellow commuters over the past month or so in London has been unacceptable - at least I'm fortunate that there is competition on my routes from LHR. The BA brand is only attractive as long as the cost is acceptable and service is reliable and despite the Christmas disruption not happening, I made changes to travel plans then as well. Although I fully appreciate that my custom means almost nothing to BA and that should the flights operate, the seats I had booked will be occupied by someone who will have undoubtable paid more than I have, industrial action damages a brand and unlike the railways in the UK, air travel often provides alternative choices (as often reminded during the on board PA's). BA short haul out has already undergone some brand adjustments this month which are not in my favour and I question the wisdom of Unison electing to call action now, other than to contribute to the other industrial action mentioned thus generating additional publicity and adding to the impression of a union activity bringing transport infrastructure to it's knees at a time when the economy needs to strengthen in anticipation of invoking article 50.
I see one of the picket boards in EGLD's image quotes Richard Branson: Clients do not come first. Employees come first. If you take care of your employees, they will take care of the clients Can someone remind me what Cabin Crew at VS are making these days?

[Ancient Observer]

Opinions.

Aren't Opinions great? We can all have quite a lot, and normally they are free!!

I think that things have moved on since the BASSA strike. Firstly, the megalomaniacs who ran BASSA thought they also ran BA. They also thought that everyone owed them a living. That's why so many other Unite Branches voted to work on, cross picket lines, and be trained up to replace the CC, some of whom took a day or two's holiday.

In my opinion, this strike is very different. It is not lead by Unite, but by the staff. Further, when BA spoke during the last strike, I was inclined to believe them rather than BASSA and the Socialist Worker clowns that performed with them. Now, however, the culture in BA is very, very different. They appear to lie whenever it suits them. Lots of evidence over on the BAEC thread on another website. The whole BA customer service ethos has gone from many of their staff- taken from them by daft management. The last letter BA sent me was a lie. I no longer believe what they say to me or to the press unless it has completely independent verification. They know that no-one trusts them - that's why they know they need verification of their own numbers. However, when those "numbers" allegedly relating to income include stuff that you and I would call expenses, we all know it is no more than spin.

[GS-Alpha]

However, when those "numbers" allegedly relating to income include stuff that you and I would call expenses, we all know it is no more than spin.
When you say you and I, do you say that as a crewman or woman? I have never considered my allowances to simply be expenses. They are part of my salary. I choose to spend them as I wish, and most of the time that is on shopping or paying for entertainment whilst on my days off downroute. I don't expect my employer to cover these costs as expenses. Sorry, but I think the people spinning the numbers are you and Unite.

[Juan Tugoh]

I don't really care who is right over the figures, what really counts is can the strike actually achieve anything. BA seemed to cope last time reasonably well. Yes, there were cancellations and sub charters, and yes, to achieve what they did BA had to go to some abnormal measures to achieve it, but they did. What does anyone think will be different about the next strike? Why will that succeed rather than make BA even more entrenched in their position? Why will the unions efforts be more successful in forcing BA's hand this time?

I support MF in their attempts to get better T&C's as the original promise was industry standard plus 10%, which they are nowhere near achieving. I'm just not convinced that they will achieve anything better than the inflation busting offer of 4.6% that they have on the table. Whatever they achieve will be the baseline minimum ask for ALL the other workgroups that exist within BA for their next pay round, so you cannot view this one dispute in isolation wrt cost.

BA will be factoring in the cost of the additional salary to ALL work groups that will inevitably follow any bigger settlement with MF. This additional cost will be BA's war chest to cover the extreme measures they need to put in place to beat this current strike.

Even with 2900 UNITE members who all strike, (an unlikely situation), given the c150000 cabin crew in BA, how truly effective can this strike really be?

It is good news though for EF and WW, as MF have just clearly demonstrated that having 3 distinct work groups as CC can effectively blunt any IA from a single group. Has anyone else wondered why the mutterings and rumours of the demise of EF have declined in parallel with the increasing severity of the MF dispute? Coincidence or a realisation from BA that perhaps EF and WW are valuable as a foil for MF?

[virgin mary]

So the dispute rolls on with 6 strike days this week and seemingly no movement from BA management. The damage to the brand with the negative press, schedule changes and now the dispute being raised in the House of commons must be raising some eyebrows at IAG. And what about the cost of all those sub charters! What is it going to be like if Unite go to a full and continuous stoppage.

[HighPi]

I haven't really noticed much about this latest strike in the press. And hardly any flights are being cancelled due to it (it appears to me the vast majority of Mixed Fleet are turning up for work).

Not sure what impact the strikes are really having to be honest?

[wapses]

So you accept a job knowing full well the details of the package ... then later you decide the salary is not good enough. In the real world you leave and find a job that pays more. In the screwed up world of these cabin staff and their union you go on strike. Amazing! And has anyone explained to them just how unsuccessful the last strike was? The staff gained NOTHING on that occasion, but lost staff travel priveleges and wages. Well done the union. There's no way that Willie and Cruz are going to give in this time either.

[vctenderness]

It also conincides with the Unite General Secretary Election for McClunky as it did last time.

BA cabin crew are the biggest Branch in the Union!!

[nguba]

During the last three days of strikes there were about five return flights cancelled so in terms of cancellations it's having next to no impact.

Whilst I support better T&Cs for MF, it's notable that some of the loudest voices elsewhere egging on crew to strike are from those who went on strike in 2010 and have been against MF from the start. There is definitely a sense of some seeing this as unfinished business and actively wanting to see MF destabilised.

[ChicoG]

Unite and BASSA are becoming increasingly irrelevant and unrealistic.

British Airways mixed fleet pile on the pressure over poverty pay with more strike days
14 February 2017
Unite members working for British Airways’ mixed fleet piled further pressure on the airline today (Tuesday 14 February) by announcing a further four days of strikes on top of the four days of action planned for later this week running from 00:01 on Friday (17 February) to 23:59 on Monday (20 February).

The latest strike announcement of strike action running from 00.01 on Wednesday 22 February to 23.59 Saturday 25 February inclusively, follows calls for British Airways to enter talks at the conciliation service Acas and reach an agreement to avoid further strike disruption.

A refusal by British Airways to take up the union's offer to reach a settlement has resulted in the latest escalation said Unite, whose mixed fleet members have been embroiled in a bitter dispute over poverty pay at the airline.

So far, there has been a total of 11 days of strike action since the beginning of January which has led to the cancellation of flights and the airline chartering, or ‘wet leasing’, aircraft from other airlines such as Titan Airways, Vueling and Thomson Airways to cover striking cabin crew.

Unite regional officer Matt Smith said: "For every hour British Airways 'wet leases' an aircraft from another airline to cover striking cabin crew it costs in the region of £2,000 to £3,000.

“Our estimates put the amount of money British Airways has spent on defending the dispute and poverty pay at £1 million.

"This is money which the airline has taken a conscious decision to give to other airlines rather than addressing pay levels which are forcing hardworking mixed fleet cabin crew into financial hardship.

"We would urge British Airways to reconsider its costly intransigence and enter talks at Acas and reach an agreement."

Since 2010 all British Airways new cabin crew employees join what is called ‘mixed fleet’, where despite promises that pay would be 10 per cent above the market rate, basic pay starts at just £12,192 with £3 an hour flying pay. Unite estimates that on average ‘mixed fleet’ cabin crew earn £16,000, including allowances, a year.

ENDS
- See more at: British Airways mixed fleet (http://www.unitetheunion.org/news/british-airways-mixed-fleet/#sthash.hc1YVp0h.dpuf)

[crewmeal]

Sky News have made it their main headline this morning, interviewing one crew member who says they can only afford pot noodles.

Striking British Airways hostess: 'We can only afford Pot Noodles' (http://news.sky.com/story/striking-british-airways-hostess-we-can-only-afford-pot-noodles-10772312)

[alwayzinit]

Saw that report.
There was a lot of "A friend of mine told me....." etc etc.

So not fact but gossip.

Has BA not thought about an accommodation block at Heathrow or midway between LHR and LGW? Is there one and the Crew opt not to use it?

Do BA get discounted crew rates for staff prior to flights?

[Another James]

Going back to the mid 1940's (iirc :D) during the development of London Airport now lhr,it was found there was a shortage of housing within easy commute to the airport.
So many properties were built for airways staff in stanwell and the surrounding areas ,these have now been absorbed into social housing or sold off.
Exert from HACC. In its early years, at a time of acute housing shortage, the Committee gave a great deal of practical support to securing adequate housing provision for airport based staff in local areas. With assistance to what became British Airways Staff Housing Association, some 3,500 homes were provided by 1952, many of them in Stanwell, Heston and Feltham.

sorry a little of topic.

[virgin mary]

After watching Willie Walsh answering questions on Sky news, I can only say how I am appalled at his answers and blatant disregard for crew welfare. I find it very disappointing, although i’m not entirely surprised at his apparent lack of knowledge regarding the rules for crew commuting to work. (what are his middle management actually telling him???) He is obviously so out of touch with his employees that he does not realise or even care that he is in danger of eclipsing Bob Ayling as the most detested of BA/IAG executives! His appearance on Sky has turned into the biggest rallying cry for this dispute so far. He clearly does not even want to try and understand the financial hardship forcing many of these crew members into a situation where they have no other option but to commute many hundreds of miles from a place of rest/home that they can actually afford, to do the job they love. All this coupled with him then defending a £2.4 million salary and conveniently forgetting the eye watering pay rises he and several other board members of BA/IAG have received over the last 5 years, it is no wonder the Unite union membership level is continuing to grow steadily every day this dispute goes on. The customers and the staff can all see how this dispute is affecting the business and damaging the image of BA as a good employer, yet Willie continued to dismiss and deny this obvious impact to the business. And alas, the division being created between the striking crew and those who are not partaking in the action will certainly last for years to come. And I would say that those other non flying-staff groups who are so very short sighted and silly enough to meddle in other staff groups disputes by volunteering to fly as crew during the dispute are certainly making a rod for their own back, just ask those who did it before!! People don’t forget things like that.

Only now under the threat of 7 continuous days of strike and more being planned, are BA starting to show tentative moves towards meaningful re-engagement in negotiations through ACAS. But his dispute is far from over and judging by the mis information, scare tactics and threats flowing out of Waterside in the last few days, I doubt very much that this is an honest attempt at brokering a settlement.

However the silver lining on these clouds, is the most comendable camaraderie and solidarity being shown amongst the supporters and activists of this dispute. Also, we have learned that striking crew will have about £35 per day deducted from their salary, while the Unite Union supports them with strike pay of £60 per day! Yes, they make more money from the very well supported hardship fund, while they strike! This just highlights the crux of this dispute.

In the face of some very heavy handed rebukes from managers patrolling T5, the check-in areas and the car parks for any crew member who publicly show signs or emblems of support, the level of support is only growing with more and more encouragement from the other fleets. Anyone can see this incredibly strong and galvanising solidarity will cause BA even more upset in the future, unless it is handled with extreme care and the attention it deserves. Currently BA are just fanning the flames of discontent.

KTF

[cessnapete]

Here we go again As Virgin Mary now illustrates, a rerun of Unite against BA/ Willie Walsh, with the unfortunate people of Mixed Fleet used as the catalyst this time around. If Unite had negotiated seriously last time, MF would not have been created.
Better dust off the old cabin crew uniform. Who won last time?

[vctenderness]

What a load of left wing Corbynista tosh that post was!

Neatly forgetting that the dismal terms and conditions suffered by Mixed Fleet is a direct result of Unite/BASSA's lunatic behaviour in 2010!

Here a suggestion: BASSA should ask its well rewarded members to forgo their pay increase for this year and consolidate it with the BA offer to their 'Poverty Pay' colleagues.

This would result in a good increase to Mixed Fleet pay at a small cost to their 'Legacy' members.

Just a thought......

[nguba]

Some crew are in for a very nasty shock when they get their February payslips if they think they earn more money by striking.

Unite pay strike pay for the days crew go on strike.

BA deducts pay from the day a crew member goes on strike until they are next rostered for duty. Big difference.

And crew lose other bonuses for attendance etc. And they are losing out on a pay rises received by non-union MF members.

I wonder how many crew who went on strike in 2010 who couldn't contain their excitement at the prospect of strikes on MF bothered to point this out?

Also, back in 2009/10 BA made it very clear that the cost of industrial action would be recovered from the department responsible for it, so be careful what you wish for....

It is also beyond tragic that some are using this strike to replay the battles of seven years ago again in their own heads.

[GS-Alpha]

Neatly forgetting that the dismal terms and conditions suffered by Mixed Fleet is a direct result of Unite/BASSA's lunatic behaviour in 2010!
Are they dismal though? I know MF crew who have left for other airlines and they each believe they have made a mistake. MF terms and conditions are perhaps dismal compared to the rest of BA crew, but not when compared to the rest of the industry. Had the legacy crew given some concessions without such a fuss, MF would not exist. However Unite walked straight into the trap back then and the rest is history. These strikes are costing IAG peanuts. There simply are not enough crew in this workgroup to force IAG's hand using strike action. The only question is how long is it going to take them to realise they were defeated before they even started? Unite should have known this, and almost certainly did. It has all just been a political game.

[GS-Alpha]

To put the figures into perspective. I think the Legacy crew strikes cost something just over two hundred million pounds. These strikes so far have probably cost just a couple of million. If you say there are three thousand striking crew, a couple of million would pay for about a £700 one of pay bonus each. If added to basic salary, that would be a couple of million pounds per year extra every year (increasing as the MF numbers increase). It is very easy to see why the company isn't budging. The only thing that will see a payrise is if they cannot recruit enough crew. Currently they are receiving eleven applicants per position, so they can be fussy and only take the top ten percent.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Didn't have much sympathy when legacy CC went on strike.
MF - Loads of sympathy but as GS Alpha suggests - no win situation.

[virgin mary]

Well a second ballot is out for more strike action from MIxed Fleet Unite and yet the BA management spin machine seem to be putting more effort into videos, letters and blatant untruths while trying to convince thier crew to vote no, rather than simply addressing the core issues. Crew management does not need to be difficult, so why do BA always make it so???

[HZ123]

They (BA management) always have been awkward ! So long as the work is covered, which the majority of it has, I fear our MF colleagues are getting nowhere fast. It is nothing new in the past they spent much of the time spinning the facts and the travelling public are not interested.
I hope for the crews it is resolved soon as it must be so demoralising, especially as 'your' card is marked henceforth!

[BigEndBob]

So it's not like this then:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmZwlAxwyDQ&list=PLjQ5Zv7FsZups5cWt5v1yOYHsat2yShuQ&index=31

I get the impression these days that airlines are glad of whoever they can get to do the job.

[BetterByBoat]

So the dispute rolls on with 6 strike days this week and seemingly no movement from BA management. The damage to the brand with the negative press, schedule changes and now the dispute being raised in the House of commons must be raising some eyebrows at IAG. And what about the cost of all those sub charters! What is it going to be like if Unite go to a full and continuous stoppage.



No damage to the brand other than in the misguided minds of the cabin crew who were striking. If you can get more elsewhere then why not move onwards and upwards?

[Preon]

So it's not like this then:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmZwlAxwyDQ&list=PLjQ5Zv7FsZups5cWt5v1yOYHsat2yShuQ&index=31

I get the impression these days that airlines are glad of whoever they can get to do the job.

classic video but pre - 'MG Midget from uniform stores' days

[virgin mary]

Well here we are again, July 1st and the start of yet another totaly avoidable BA fiasco. Once again BA management are digging into an entrenched position of refusing to pay the Mixed Fleet Cabin Crew a decent living wage, whilst spending huge amounts of cash on wet leasing aircraft and crews to cover the continueing strike action.

Well done Mixed Fleet strikers for having the courage and conviction that many on this forum didn't think you had! And shame on the strike breakers and ground staff who are volunteering to be tempory crew, your misguided action will only prolong the dispute even more.

Lots and lots of spaces in the car park this morning…….

KTF

[cessnapete]

Unfortunately Mary, 9 shiny Qatari A320s parked too. Ready to take up the slack.

[B Fraser]

It's also the start of Wimbledon fortnight.

[cessnapete]

You're right, even without a Strike and before Mixed Fleet was born, BA occaisionaly had to wet lease Short Haul aircraft and crews because of crew "sickness " during Wimbledon and other social events in the summer!!

[wapses]

I haven't read through all of the posts on this thread, but would be interested to answers to the following questions:
1. What did the strikers/union gain from the first series of strikes?
2. Surely the people joining BA as Mixed Fleet Crew knew the terms and conditions and salary before they signed their contracts, do what justification for then going on strike because the pay is too low?

[PC767]

I understand that MFU reached a potential settlement on financial terms but was unable to recommend the deal because BA would not remove the loss of staff travel and loss of bonus from the agreement.

The information from MFU about current strikes references the right not to be punished for undertaking legal action. If correct, this is why many people believe that BA could have averted the current strike at very little cost.

As for knowing what one signed up for, anecdotal evidence suggests that MF crew are not earning what was advertised. I cannot confirm if that is the case, merely that it is what is suggested in answer to the question.

[Twiglet1]

I wonder if Mr Cruz and the I.T. lost their BA concessions for the I.T. f**k up??

[tescoapp]

I wonder if Mr Cruz and the I.T. lost their BA concessions for the I.T. f**k up??

Unless its in their contracts that in the event they screw up they loose their BA concessions it would be illegal to remove them.

And it would be relatively simple court case to get them back and they would also get damages.

In this case CC did have it in their contracts that going on strike would mean they would loose their concessions so it perfectly legal.

[PC767]

I understand that the difference is slight but significant. Staff travel is not a contractable right rather than being an employers term of contract that it will be removed.

[vctenderness]

The problem is that during the big BASSA strikes BA did the same and removed pay and concessions. Then in order to return to some kind of normality rescinded this and there was no loss to crew.

It seems that the new management see this as weakness and will stand firm no matter what in order to send a strong signal to others who may contemplate taking action.

The strikes seem to be having very little, if any, real effect on BA so I guess they will continue to play hard ball.

[HZ123]

Not sure about very little effect, so far this year with the strikes plus the major outage the cost will be significant? Doubt there will be any bonuses for the next year!

[PC767]

I suppose it depends on how one defines 'little effect'.

From a passenger point if view it is correct to state very little effect. From a company point if view the debate remains open. This doesn't equate to a failure on behalf of the union. The target was disruption to BA not its customers.

[baggersup]

There is the old adage that if you don't know history, you may be doomed to repeat it. Crew who were not around during the BASSA/BA weenie roast should have been well served to do their own research on how BA and Willie handle cabin crew strikers.

It could have saved them a great deal of loss and heartbreak if they'd done deep research and tried any other way possible. If all else failed and strike was imminent, then crew needed to be aware what they were up against. I'm afraid that some crew, who may have still been in 6th form last time Willie took on a cabin crew union, just didn't know what would happen.

He's played another blinder. He's made missing crew unremarkable and basically unneeded.

PC767, you hit the nail on the proverbial. Little effect though isn't quite correct--I'd go so far as to say Willie has delivered to a great number of his premium pax a BETTER service on strike than without one.

The Qatar wet leased aircraft have a genuine wider comfier premium seat up front--not the narrow economy seat with just a table in the middle seat.

Reports coming in from veteran BA travelers in CE are extolling their wonderful experiences during the strike, saying the Qatar crews are fantastic, many of the pilots flying them are British anyway, the food service is of a much higher caliber and served with panache and professionalism by Qatar crew (compared to BA's CE food service), and they are even getting their pre-flight champagne service during loading. Value ADDED not lost.

Some report friendly banter over the strike with Qatar crew and overall the cabin atmosphere is reported to be jovial.

When an airline delivers better, higher quality service during a strike to many of their highly valued premiums, then a union needs to wake up and smell the roses and try another method to get justice for its workers.

This method currently in play is not the way. But for gasping dinosaurs like Unite, they only have one arrow in their quiver--strikes.

I'm sorry for all involved on the crew side. It's awful. You've been led badly. BA are playing hard ball yet again and they are in this for keeps. Deep pockets and full planes going out.

They may eventually cave, but only after maximum point has been made about what happens if you strike. We'll see.

[vctenderness]

Does anyone know,if the Qatar crews are reporting at CRC? If so what kind of reception by BA crews?

Also who is catering the Qatar services?

[Lordflasheart]

Don't know the answer to VC10s Q above, but ......

Application to extend the QR wet-lease right through to 31 July.

http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/2229.pdf

Comments by close of play Thursday

[PC767]

There is the old adage that if you don't know history, you may be doomed to repeat it. Crew who were not around during the BASSA/BA weenie roast should have been well served to do their own research on how BA and Willie handle cabin crew strikers.

It could have saved them a great deal of loss and heartbreak if they'd done deep research and tried any other way possible. If all else failed and strike was imminent, then crew needed to be aware what they were up against. I'm afraid that some crew, who may have still been in 6th form last time Willie took on a cabin crew union, just didn't know what would happen.

He's played another blinder. He's made missing crew unremarkable and basically unneeded.

PC767, you hit the nail on the proverbial. Little effect though isn't quite correct--I'd go so far as to say Willie has delivered to a great number of his premium pax a BETTER service on strike than without one.

The Qatar wet leased aircraft have a genuine wider comfier premium seat up front--not the narrow economy seat with just a table in the middle seat.

Reports coming in from veteran BA travelers in CE are extolling their wonderful experiences during the strike, saying the Qatar crews are fantastic, many of the pilots flying them are British anyway, the food service is of a much higher caliber and served with panache and professionalism by Qatar crew (compared to BA's CE food service), and they are even getting their pre-flight champagne service during loading. Value ADDED not lost.

Some report friendly banter over the strike with Qatar crew and overall the cabin atmosphere is reported to be jovial.

When an airline delivers better, higher quality service during a strike to many of their highly valued premiums, then a union needs to wake up and smell the roses and try another method to get justice for its workers.

This method currently in play is not the way. But for gasping dinosaurs like Unite, they only have one arrow in their quiver--strikes.

I'm sorry for all involved on the crew side. It's awful. You've been led badly. BA are playing hard ball yet again and they are in this for keeps. Deep pockets and full planes going out.

They may eventually cave, but only after maximum point has been made about what happens if you strike. We'll see.

Interesting. Regular BA passengers may also be seeing just what has been taken from them at BA. Strike or no strike BA now has more seats per aircraft than Qatar, all of which are served by 3 cabin crew against 5 for Qatar. Better seats, better crew ratios, better product, better and free food and beverage; the only area BA seems to be 'higher' is in pricing.

For many passengers, travelling Qatar might just be the reminder they need that BA is also taking them for a ride. I was also under the impression that BA MF crew were highly commended for being young, enthusiastic and friendly.

[baggersup]

...........................

[HZ123]

All this talk of WW, where is Alex Cruz, he is the CEO of BA and one can only presume must be on an extended holiday, unless someone knows better? Our guests do indeed check in at T5 with the residents and rumour is, it is all very friendly including a bit of banter!

[Skipness One Echo]

He's played another blinder. He's made missing crew unremarkable and basically unneeded.
Claptrap. He's allowed a hosts of Cruz Control's super cost savings to be sprayed against a clatty wall as BA has to spend a fortune chartering a fleet of aircraft in the medium term. These MF kids are not the red barons of the old BASSA brigade, they're young enthusiastic kids who were mis-sold a poorly paid job to make an off the shelf Accenture clone another million in the bank. Aside from cost cutting what is Cruz good for? His latest idea is to have two airlines in one, a loco down the back and a premium up front, insisting he's competing with Norwegian and ignoring the KLM, Swiss and Lufthansa's of the world. He'll have great short term profits till he cashes out and someone else has to come in a rescue the brand when cost cutting can go no further.
"Show me the ******* money" as Willie Walsh once said.

[HZ123]

Positive news on all fronts with the launch of a new 'duvet' cover (club and first).

That's' sorted that then!

[pax britanica]

Skipness One has it right

This is a fiasco for BA since while they can maintain schedules it shows up what a rubbish outfit BA have become under WW leadership (He appointed Cruz so he is the one to blame) .

Cuz approach is all short term with no plan whatsoever for growing the airline and protecting the brand.In fact like many Mckinsey monkeys he seems to feel the brand reputation never goes away no matter how much you trash it -experience shows you can live off the brand for a while but when the backlash starts it goes down hill very very quickly.

Cheap fuel is propping up BAs numbers not product or service or efficient operation and when the next recession kicks in and there is much reduced J travel people will go for the airline with decent Y offerings and BA are surely deficient there. Sad but this once great company has just got to 'top of descent'

[SpeedyG]

OMG a new duvet cover?? That really took some shekels from the company coffers - price of juice in the back end will have to go up now!!!

[virgin mary]

The ongoing dispute between British Airways and it's Cabin Crew, is now the longest period of strike days in aviation history and will reach 70 days of strike action by the 15th August.

With the reported numbers of crew taking part in the action growing week by week, their resolve does not appear to be weakening.

But everything is still fine, its having no effect.....

[Lordflasheart]

BA MF Strike continues 16 to 30 August inclusive.

BA QR wet-lease continues (8 x A-320) 16 to 30 August inclusive.

[edi_local]

Seems to be suiting all parties other than the strikers.

BA routes are mostly unaffected and any cancelled BA flights are easily replaced by putting passengers on QR services via DOH, benefiting both parties as QR get the revenue and BA know that they can get more or less everyone where they need to be. BA are, presumably, not paying the strikers anything at the moment either?

QR finding a good use for their crew and aircraft which would otherwise be grounded due to lack of short haul demand and probably making back a good chunk of the money that they are losing due to the current situation.

There is no incentive for either party to change anything. If QR suddenly gain access to the markets they are currently excluded from then it might be a hiccup for BA, but there are plenty of other companies they can go to for aircraft and crew. Yes the QR shorthaul product is much better than that of BAs, which will cause some passengers to comment, but there isn't much they can do. BA won't be offering anything like the QR service any time son and QR, in normal times won't be flying for BA shorthaul either, so the passengers who are BA regulars will be stuck with BA regular service once things settle down again.

[nguba]

The ongoing dispute between British Airways and it's Cabin Crew, is now the longest period of strike days in aviation history and will reach 70 days of strike action by the 15th August.

With the reported numbers of crew taking part in the action growing week by week, their resolve does not appear to be weakening.

But everything is still fine, its having no effect.....

So how much is this costing Unite in strike pay?

[Litebulbs]

Approximately 65% of the UK NLW

[nohold]

The Qatar A320s are starting their return back home on the 30th and 31st Aug.

nohold


BA MF Strike continues 16 to 30 August inclusive.

BA QR wet-lease continues (8 x A-320) 16 to 30 August inclusive.