Converting military hours to civilian logbook

[Colonel W E Kurtz]

I have spoken to the CAA and they said that I should add 5% of each sortie i.e. 3 mins per hour to allow for taxy time. Is this correct before I waste hours copying it all out?

Thanks

:cool:

[BlueEagle]

Cannot help re the 'correctness' of it, (have you got it in writing from the CAA?), but, if they have approved it, then you would only need to calculate the total amount and put it in as a single entry with the CAA letter as your authority.

Suggest you get it in writing though.

[BEagle]

Definitely get it in writing! The 'old' agreement was that you could add:

Helicopters with skids: Nothing
Helicopters with wheels: 5 min per sortie
Fast Jets: 10 min per sortie
Multis: 15 min per sortie

A straight 'percentage' of 5% seems rather low. Alternatively - and I've said this countless times - open a civil logbook and log all your flights from chocks away to chocks under in that logbook. Carry forward all previous time with the appropriate 'allowance' approved by the CAA already included.

[Herp]

When I left a couple of years ago, I was told by the CAA that I could add a percentage as per the agreement mentioned above, but only up to a maximum of 75 hours, to my RAF total. This is unlikely to affect those needing the 1500 hours for an ATPL, but will almost certainly affect those looking for 4000 or 6000 hours to make them eligble for a command. Whatever you do though, get it in writing from the CAA.

Hope this helps.:cool:

[Hydraulic Palm Tree]

I've always thought it is a bloody cheek that they limit the taxy time to a maximum of 75 hours. If they let civilians claim taxy time for each and every sortie, then they should not penalise military or ex military folk by placing this restriction on them. I add 0.2 to every fixed wing sortie in my civilian logbook (fixed wing only), but have not gone through my (largely) wheeled helicopter time to add on an allowance for that. It should make a substantial difference though.

HPT

[Colonel W E Kurtz]

Thanks very much!

I just have a few more questions, are you ment to use the army decimal time system, or hours and minutes in a civy logbook?

Also what about Student Pilot In Command time? Is that dual time under instruction or solo P1 time on a training course? Or do you just not bother with that column?

Thanks again

:)

[BEagle]

From the TGDA website:

Q22. What is the definition of PIC/PIC U/S etc and what do they equate to in military terms?

A22.

Pilot in Command PIC = P1Captain/1st Pilot (Nimrod) P1

PIC Under Supervision (PIC U/S) = P1(Non-Captain)/Co-pilot P1/2nd Pilot P1 (Nimrod)


P2 = Co-pilot/2nd Pilot (Nimrod)

Dual = PU/T

SPICu/s does not feature.

I don't know about the Army-only 'decimal time' - it isn't normally used in the UK civil world.

[Hydraulic Palm Tree]

I use the decimal hours system in my civilian logbook and the CAA didn't seem to mind when I sent it off for my professional licences.

HPT

[fobotcso]

I would, of course, defer to those here who are better informed about CAA and its policy, but I am surprised about those helicopter allowances given by BEagle.

It was always my view that a helicopter was "flying" as soon as the main rotor(s) were engaged - skids or no skids. There are several reasons that could be argued for that. So an allowance for one should logically be applied to the other. But when did it make sense to put logic and CAA in the same sentence?

Certainly, SAR/SH sorties with a dozen or more landings and take-offs are logged from start to finish without deductions for time with wheels/skids in contact with terra firma. What's the difference?

[Dan Winterland]

There is no doubt that military pilots are penalised by the system of logging take off to landing times. Since flying for an airline, I have been amazed at the ammount of time I'm logging on the ground. For example, a flight time of 6 hours forty yesterday (from the central mainteneance computer printout) accounted for 34 minutes on the ground at JFK and 17 at Heathrow. Fifty one minutes which the military system would have denied me.

The CAA do allow taxying time for the award of a licence, but as having been stated earlier, this is 5% up to a max of 75 hours by prior agreement for those who are close to the 1500 hours for the award of an ATPL. This 75 hours credit is not recognised by aircraft operators.

However, when applying for a job and once having got that job (in the race for a command), the military pilot is still going to be disadvantaged by in comparison to his civilian competitors. For that reason, an agreement was struck between the RAF and some airlines in 1995 that military pilots are allowed to claim an allowance for taxying time. the text of the letter from HQPTC Group Captain Training Policy to a mate outlining the agreement is reproduced below.

___________________________________________________

REOGNITION OF MILITARY AIRCRAFT TAXYING TIME IN CIVILIAN AVIATION.

My post has amongst its duties the liaison task with the CAA on matters concerning flight crew licensing. Over the last year I have been in corresepondence with the CAA trying to gain recognition of taxying time on military sorties.

The normal practice in civilian aviation for recording flying hours is for flight times to include taxying time, and the CAA recognises this total time. Unfortunately, for the military pliot, the MOD only rmaintains a record of airborne time - these times being inextricably linked with dervice engineering procedures. The CAA has for many years recognised military flying experience, and they have considered military flying hours to be on a par with those gained in civilian flying. As such. the CAA will accept all the hours in a RAF Flying Log Book when a military pilot applies for a civilian Flight Crew Licence. Furthermere, the CAA has stated that they would recognise military taxying times if they were recorded accurately, either separately or within the totals of a military log book. While I'm sure taht any squadron commander would have been willing to sign for the accurate recording of taxying time in military log boks, either separately or as an adjusted total inserted into the spare columns within the log book, few, if any, military pilots have recorded taxying times.

As the average sortie length of military aircraft is under one hour, the percentage increase of including taxying time would undoubtedly be quite large and could be most useful when either trying to gain licneces or applying for command within a civilian airline. Many ex - military pilots have approached the CAA for recognition of military taxying time, requesting an allowance when applying for licences. The CAA have always turned down these frequent requests on the grounds that they will only recognise authenticated totals. Understandably, they do not have the time to assess what military taxy times should be and to allocate such an alowance for each sortie. To get around this problem, I have recently received requests from some of our retired pilots that their log books are signed to include taxying time totals. To add an accurate retrospective taxying time total at the end of a service career is very difficult; however, the RAF pilot sponsor within the MOD has agreed that a minimum taxying time should be recognised. While the overall average is likely to be much higher, the MOD could only guarentee that this minimum taxying time wouldhave taken place during each sortie. These minimum taxying time would vary within the aircraft groupings and the suggested allowances are set out below:

Fixed Wing Training Aircraft: 10 mins
Fast Jets: 10 mins
Multi Engine Transport Aircraft: 15 mins
Display Flying 5 mins
Wheeled helicopter - Airfield Operations: 5 Mins
- Field Operations: none
Non Wheeled Helicopters none
Aircraft Carrier Operations none

It has now been agreed that all pliots leaving the service could, if they so wished, have a certificate signed by his/her last Squadron Commander. this certificate could then be insertedinto Section 6 of FAF Form 414 - PILOTS FLYING LOG BOOK. While this recognition of taxying time is unlikely to be necessary when applying for licences, it could be of benefit when being assessed for company seniority or when applying for command in those airlines that operate a minimum flying hour restriction.

I have looked into the legal aspects of the above proposal and have been advised that so long as the 'notional' and approximate nature of these taxying times is not concealed, and that there is no representation that they are actual times, there should be no legal obstacle. Furhtermeore, I have recently writte to British Airways, British Midland Airways, Excalibur airways, Virgin Atalntic Airways, Airtours and Monarch irlines Ltd asking their opinion, and all have no difficulty in accepting an adjusted flying total that includes taxying time for military sorties.

I am not, as yet, sure that the CAA will accept such a notional formula, or indeed whether they need to. If an airline was prepared to recognise in part of their company policy, this method of enhancing military flying hour totals when assessing seniority or offereing commands to the ex-military pliot, it would probably be no concern for the CAA. That said, having now received the civilian sector's approval of this proposal it will undoubtedly add weight to the arguement when approaching the CAA.

While CAA recognition has yet to be gained, you may wish to have the enclosed certificate endored before you leave the service. I hope this MOD recognition odf taxi time will be of use to you if you persue a new career in civilian aviation.

Signed xxxxxxxxxx
Squadron Leader
for Group Captain Training Policy

Enclosre:

1. Taxy Time Certificate.


Summary for .........................................................
(...................) to (........................)

Date:
Sig:
Appointment:


AC Type Sotiies flown Taxi allownace TOTAL
............. ..................... ...................... ..........
............. .................... ...................... ............
............. .................... ..................... ............
............. .................... ..................... ............
GRAND TOTAL .................... ..................... ............
____________________________________________________


The certificate should be tabulated - not clever enough to do this on pprune.

I added a taxi time total in the hours column of my CV. None of the airlines I sent it to questioned it. My employer (a long haul scheduled operator without sill tail fin designs!) accepts these time for both employment and command assessment.

To give you an idea of how much time we are talking about, in my case it accounted for nearly 500 hours at the end of a PC. It's definately worth it.

[Ghostflyer]

Best way is to log your mil flying exactly the way the civvies would in another logbook and get it approved as you fly.

As for the conversion factor, the letter that I used was issued by HQ PTC under PTC/285071/P&P dated 1 Nov 96.

It details the conversion factors allowed and the rules under which they are applied as well as providing a handy dandy table to put the hours in. I used it, added my civvy guff and then had my new hours validated by the RAF (i.e My Boss) who signed that the new total was a true reflection of my experience blah..... IAW ref above.

Hope that helps, off to the beach.

Ghost ;)

[Colonel W E Kurtz]

Thanks for the help on the taxy time, I just have a query or two on Instrument hours.

In my military logbook, there are two columns for INSTRUMENT FLYING HOURS, SIM (Simulated, i.e. flying with the hood on) and ACT (Actual IF Hours in cloud).

My civy JAR logbook there is a column for OPERATIONAL CONDITION TIME, containing one column for NIGHT and one for IFR.

Can I add both the SIM and ACT hours together and put them in the IFR column? Or can I only include ACT hours here?

Also what about all the PARs and SRA approaches, there doesn’t seem to be anywhere to log these, do you just put them in the remarks column?


Many thanks again!
:cool:

[BEagle]

This is another JAA stupidity.

The military logs 'flight by instruments' whether simulated or actual, whereas the JAA idiots ask for flight under IFR.

So, on a nice blue day, fly at quadrantal levels above 3000' amsl on 1013, observe Instrument Flight Rules and you can log the time irrespective of whether you're under IFR or VFR in VMC!!

As an example - last time I flew a VC10 to Dakar it was under IFR throughout. But we didn't see a single cloud......Military 'IF' time was zero, under JAA 'operational conditions' I could have logged the whole 6 1/2 hours as 'flight under IFR'.........

Daft - but that's the way of the JAA!!