Direct entry F/O in major US airlines

[Flykri]

Hi guys,

currently holding an EASA ATPL(A) with DHC8 type rating. 1100h as PIC and 6000h+ totals.

I was wondering what was the probability of directly entering a US Major from an european airline.

If the chance is close to zero, I'll avoid wasting my time converting my licence to a FAA.

Thanks in advance.

[Sthan]

Hi,
EASA license supposed to the greatest thing, but it's not.
You can't, you have to start as F/O in a regional airline.

Hi guys,

currently holding an EASA ATPL(A) with DHC8 type rating. 1100h as PIC and 6000h+ totals.

I was wondering what was the probability of directly entering a US Major from an european airline.

If the chance is close to zero, I'll avoid wasting my time converting my licence to a FAA.

Thanks in advance.

[zondaracer]

If you have the right to work, a university degree, and internal recommendations, community volunteer activity, and maybe attend a job fair, you have a chance at getting hired at a major. No right to work, don't bother.

You have enough flying experience, so that's not the issue.

[Flykri]

Reading back my post, it might not be detailed enough.

Flew

- the ERJ135/145 as F/O 1400h+
- the 737CL & NG as FO 4550h+
- now the DH8D as CPT 1100h+

Would that make a difference?

[MichaelBluth]

Plenty of experience/time to be hired by a major. Do you have a four year degree? There are no guarantees, but you are in the ballpark.
Any black marks? Failed training etc?

[Flykri]

If you have the right to work, a university degree, and internal recommendations, community volunteer activity, and maybe attend a job fair, you have a chance at getting hired at a major. No right to work, don't bother.

Right to work? Job fair?

Did my best to find many info but the US still look nebulous to me compared to EU concerning working environment.

[Flykri]

Do you have a four year degree?

No, I joined my current airline at the age of 22. I'm now 32.

Any black marks? Failed training etc?

Nothing

[havick]

Right to work? Job fair?

Did my best to find many info but the US still look nebulous to me compared to EU concerning working environment.

In other words do you have a green card or able to get one through family? Or are you already a US citizen?

[zondaracer]

If you don't have a 4 year university degree and you are not a US citizen or you don't have a green card, you won't get hired at a US Major at this time.

If you had the green card or citizenship, you would have a very steep uphill path to get hired at a major. Without a degree: Regionals no problem, ULCCs and ACMI maybe.

I've seen guys with less flying experience get hired at the US majors, but they place a lot of emphasis on other things here in the US. They have a set profile that they look for.

[UAL777]

As long as you have a green card, you have a chance. I got hired with United with no college degree even though 95 percent do have a degree. Hawaiian, American, JetBlue, Spirit and Atlas all hire without degrees even though it's a small percentage. I got hired with United from Qatar Airways, although I'm an American. If I were you, I would stay in Europe because airlines in the U.S suck. There is no real pension and the pay is poor if you factor in income tax.

[tume]

If I were you, I would stay in Europe because airlines in the U.S suck. There is no real pension and the pay is poor if you factor in income tax.

You mean, the income tax that is generally much lower than in Europe? :):)

[bafanguy]

"If I were you, I would stay in Europe because airlines in the U.S suck."


UAL777,

So you're just at UAL until something better comes along ? ;-))

Best wishes in the hunt.

[zondaracer]

UAL has no pension but that 16% direct contribution into the 401K must not be bad...

[bafanguy]

Z,

Does UAL perhaps have a defined contribution pension plan ?:

"The most popular defined-contribution plan option is the 401(k), accounting for more than two-thirds of the defined-contribution plan total."

Defined-Contribution Plan Definition | Investopedia (http://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/definedcontributionplan.asp)

I wouldn't put too much confidence in any promise of a defined benefit pension plan.

[UAL777]

At United, we don't have a defined retirement plan anymore. That was taken away in bankruptcy. We do have 16% contributed into a fund annually that compounds over time. I pay over 40% income tax including city, state, federal taxes. Then there is property tax on my house and the usual taxes on merchandise. Atleast in Europe, you get a real pension when you retire if I'm not mistaken. All in all, I'm happy and can't complain. United is where I will retire so I'm not chasing any other job.

[bafanguy]

UAL777,

Yes, UAL doesn't have a "defined benefit" retirement plan any longer:

Defined-Benefit Plan Definition | Investopedia (http://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/definedbenefitpensionplan.asp)

Neither does DL. They have a plan similar to what you describe and it's defined in the PWA. Currently a 15% contribution by the company going to 16% in the near future (IIUC, the pilot can add to the contribution if he wants but doesn't have to...the wise ones will).

In a way, this is better as the money is IN YOUR NAME vs the company's promise to pay from the pot o' gold at the end of the rainbow...someday. This can be terminated in BK as it was for DL, UAL and USAir (not sure about AA).


You never want to be entangled with the PBGC...trust me.

This will work particularly well for you young guys who have an entire career to work the system...and especially at this point in history with huge retirements allowing you to move up the equipment ladder more rapidly thereby making that 16% a larger $ number...when you most need it to be large.

By the way, if US airlines "suck" (a rather broad statement) compared to those in the EU, what is the pension arrangement in the EU airlines ? Private, some government scheme or a hybrid ? As you know, we have Social Security here but I'd never consider it part of anything cooked up by a private company.

[g-code]

At United, we don't have a defined retirement plan anymore. That was taken away in bankruptcy. We do have 16% contributed into a fund annually that compounds over time. I pay over 40% income tax including city, state, federal taxes. Then there is property tax on my house and the usual taxes on merchandise. Atleast in Europe, you get a real pension when you retire if I'm not mistaken. All in all, I'm happy and can't complain. United is where I will retire so I'm not chasing any other job.

If you're paying 40% you're doing it wrong.

[jsfboat]

I'm in the US, flying for a 121 Charter airline and the state of the airlines in the US sucks, don't get me wrong, I'd love to be at American, United, Delta, FedEx, UPS, but my lack of a degree and 121 PIC isn't going to make it happen. I have German residency and I'm looking to convert my ATP and go to Europe. The regionals are giving out bonuses so that when the demand for pilots dies down (due to economy or whatever other factors) they're not stuck with higher pay scales. Do you really want to come over here and be willing to live off of $1500/month after taxes? I did it for 3 years in a row (I barely flew so I wasn't breaking guarantee or getting per diem). Just saying.

[bafanguy]

"I have German residency and I'm looking to convert my ATP and go to Europe."

jsfboat,

You're fortunate to have an option most of your American compatriots lack: the legal ability to live/work in more than one country.

The US Part 121 supplementals have never been the career equal of the legacy pax & freight carriers you mention. That's NOT to disparage those who fly supplemental work. It's a tough way to earn a living. I know because I began my career that way.

Just to educate those who wonder, but don't know, about how the EU option would be better than your prospects here, can you explain how a person would be better off moving back there as you're planning to do ?

[HEMS driver]

Having a college degree, doing volunteer work, and the other silly requirements, have nothing to do with being a competent and safe airline pilot, but U.S. airlines still whine about the "pilot shortage."

[zondaracer]

There's no shortage at the legacies. They can still be selective.

[HEMS driver]

We know there is no shortage, but not according to their PR people and lobbyists.

[Flykri]

Sorry for the late answer and thanks a lot for all your inputs.

Looks like a difficult path to get to those majors.

Let's assume I have the green card, a four year degree and my FAA ATP. What kind of salary after tax I could expect? Number of days off, vac, per diem (allowances). Does that vary a lot between the majors or is it more or less standard package for all of them?

To be honest I'm not complaining about my salary eventhough I could as well get more in a European major (but they are not hiring...). As in aviation, we are not shy on sharing our salary Im soon reaching 6000€/month plus 300€ allowances. Every night in my own bed. 10 off days per month + 30 days vac per year. Pension (if stays the same) 5000 net per month and leaving package (this is the interesting part) +- 1.2M € at the age of 60. Flying the Q400 75-80h/month. Quite tiring (4 sectors per day), short turnarounds or enormous amount of duty but few block hours (around 10h duty for 5h block)

In summary, I can't complain but I doubt more and more that my company will still be there in 25years... They lack vision and are afraid to take any decision. Moreover, aviation in Europe is dead (career and money wise) except if you are willing to work for a LCC like Ryanair. Disgusting...

For info, don't tell me to go work in the UAE, I went there, took and passed the test at EK but finally refused to join the company at the end. Not sure I could have happily lived in the desert...

Voilà!

You know everything!

[fr8doggie]

All of the answers to your questions can be found here:

Legacy | AirlinePilotCentral.com (http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/legacy)

[zondaracer]

In the US, you'll see a wide range of answers to your questions. It totally depends on aircraft, base, seniority, company etc. Pay is typically hourly. At many of the majors, $6000/month is about what you would make first year. I've got a friend who is pretty senior at United and his take home pay is approximately $25,000 a month after taxes, and he gets about 15 days off per month. Depending how hard you work and how you manipulate the system, I've heard of pay figures at the majors going as high as $45,000 per month (pretax), and in one extreme case at FedEx a pilot made $94,000 (pretax) in just one month. Of course that is at the extreme end but barring a bankruptcy, it is reasonable to expect to make between $190,000-$300,000 pretax at some point in your career at a major.

At the regional level, First year pay is now around $40,000-$60,000, and at my company it is reasonable for a captain with around 5-10 years to make $100,000 (all sims are pretax, as everyone's tax situation can vary). At the top end, there are guys making $120,000-200,000. The guys making $200,000 at the regionals are work aholics and are typically involved in the training department as well and do not take many days off.

[tume]

I could as well get more in a European major (but they are not hiring...).

Quite a few of them are.

[paokara]

UAL 777


Was your date of hire 1985?
Therefore no college degree needed?

United indeed hired some no college educated pilots back then ......

[Turkpilot]

At United, we don't have a defined retirement plan anymore. That was taken away in bankruptcy. We do have 16% contributed into a fund annually that compounds over time. I pay over 40% income tax including city, state, federal taxes. Then there is property tax on my house and the usual taxes on merchandise. Atleast in Europe, you get a real pension when you retire if I'm not mistaken. All in all, I'm happy and can't complain. United is where I will retire so I'm not chasing any other job.


When did you get hired without a degree? If within the last 15 years then you must be former mil or have some really impressive quals

[bafanguy]

Just in case anyone overseas wants to take a run at a dreadful US legacy carrier, I'll move Z B's green card info link down from that regional sticky at the top of this forum:

Pilots | OMS ? Foreign Healthcare Recruitment (http://overseasmanpower.com/blog/pilots/)

Looks like a long shot but, what the heck ? Can't win if ya don't enter. ;-)))

[Kenny]

You MUST have US Citizenship in order to apply to a US Legacy or Cargo Carrier. The Regionals will take you with permanent residency (green card). US Citizenship can take 10 years to obtain. So, that's you flying for a regional for 10+ years.

Ah, negative ghost rider. Not only untrue but illegal under US law. Worked at 2 Regionals and now at UAL, without US citizenship and just a Green Card.

[tume]

Like Kenny said, DDMow: why don't you check your information before you state them as definite facts? That is simple not true. Legacies among other carriers require "Legal right to work in the United States" which is very different than US Citizenship. Now DoD contractor jobs like Dynamic require US Citizenship/Secret Clearance, like does FedEx (they carry US mail).

[UAL777]

United still hires people without a 4 year degree although it's only a few. I was lucky I got hired without one in 2013

[Turkpilot]

United still hires people without a 4 year degree although it's only a few. I was lucky I got hired without one in 2013

What was your quals ?

[INNflight]

Some US airlines do have traditional A fund pensions,
and B fund pensions,
and 401Ks,
and sick bank buy outs,
and discounted stock purchase,
and medical,
and $300 an hour pay.
No other country on the planet can compete with that.

Usually said by people who have never worked outside their own, precious country. Enjoy your bubble! :ok:

[misd-agin]

"United still hires people without a 4 year degree although it's only a few. I was lucky I got hired without one in 2013"


UA published that they'd hired 3 people without college degrees amongst 1800 new hires. So it's possible but not probable.

[UAL777]

Some of the guys posting here are over excited about airlines like United. Yes, it's a good company to work for but its very comparable to any large airline anywhere around the world, nothing special. Pay ranges from $85 hour as a new hire all the way up to $328 hour for senior widebody captains who have been here 25 years minimum. To be a 777 captain at UAL, one must be on property a minimum of 25-30 years. It's not like Qatar or Emirates where you become a 777 captain in 5 years. Annual salary is hourly rate times 1000 hours roughly and there is per diem and a b fund in which UAL contributes 16 percent. That's all you get. UAL 777/747/787 captains take home around the same amount net of taxes as a Qatar 777/787 captain. The only difference is that the UAL captain is 60 years old while the Qatar captain is in his/her 30's.. So who is really better off in the end?

[UAL777]

Don't know what you mean by not true. Most junior 777 CA at UAL has 25 years in the company. If you mean the 757/767 fleet, even that's 20 years for left seat. Even then you will be a reserve captain and most likely paid only monthly guarantee of 73 hours pay and per diem if you fly. Another thing I don't understand is the older employees being a positive thing in your opinion. I can understand cockpit crew being older probably means more experienced but how is having grandmas in the back working as cabin crew a positive thing? Anyhow to each his own but there are plenty of airlines around the world that offer equal or better terms and conditions in the big picture.

[UAL777]

As far as qualifications, I got hired with 3,500 hours Total Time. 2,800 jet SIC. 1,000 hours on the A330 SIC. ATP, high school diploma, first class medical, FCC license. No command experience

[bafanguy]

pbi,

You said: "And to my airline for allowing me and my family to have the best career and life possible."

I think you answered UAL777's subjective question: "So who is really better off in the end?"

Lots of ways to skin this cat. :-))

[misd-agin]

A Brit asking about apples? I think the slang conversion course is complete!
Cheers mate. ;-)

[CaptainMongo]

Some of the guys posting here are over excited about airlines like United. Yes, it's a good company to work for but its very comparable to any large airline anywhere around the world, nothing special. Pay ranges from $85 hour as a new hire all the way up to $328 hour for senior widebody captains who have been here 25 years minimum. To be a 777 captain at UAL, one must be on property a minimum of 25-30 years. It's not like Qatar or Emirates where you become a 777 captain in 5 years. Annual salary is hourly rate times 1000 hours roughly and there is per diem and a b fund in which UAL contributes 16 percent. That's all you get. UAL 777/747/787 captains take home around the same amount net of taxes as a Qatar 777/787 captain. The only difference is that the UAL captain is 60 years old while the Qatar captain is in his/her 30's.. So who is really better off in the end?


Strange United hired you even though you expressed the views above and in your other posts during your United interview...

You most certainly are free to quit United (and I strongly encourage you to broaden your aviation horizon) and take a position with Qatar or Emirates, two airlines you seem to admire more than United.

That would make you happier, United happier, and open a position for a pilot who actually wants to fly for United.

[ExDubai]

The way I see it is, when they got in trouble with cash flow they borrowed money from the Qatar government.
Any source for that? I know that Abu Dhabi bailed out Dubai during the financial crisis, but Qatar?

[lambourne]

Don't know what you mean by not true. Most junior 777 CA at UAL has 25 years in the company. If you mean the 757/767 fleet, even that's 20 years for left seat. Even then you will be a reserve captain and most likely paid only monthly guarantee of 73 hours pay and per diem if you fly. Another thing I don't understand is the older employees being a positive thing in your opinion. I can understand cockpit crew being older probably means more experienced but how is having grandmas in the back working as cabin crew a positive thing? Anyhow to each his own but there are plenty of airlines around the world that offer equal or better terms and conditions in the big picture.

Hired in 2013, no college degree and this terrible attitude you seem to have about UAL? What a terrible mistake they made in hiring you. You sound a lot like some the FO's I have had recently that have been here very little time and complain more than as if they were 35 year flight attendants. I would highly recommend you looking for other employment as you are not going to be happy at UAL. Of course with those qualifications you quoted you most likely could not get a job anywhere else. So I have to wonder......do you fit into one of the special hiring catergories?

[paokara]

United still hires people without a 4 year degree although it's only a few. I was lucky I got hired without one in 2013
Ual777 ...was your dad a 787 captain from Cal and you interviewed at Houston and not TK at Denver ?

That will explain the no degree
For the record : United hired 1987 pilots since 2/13 and 4 only had no degree...and they were special cases.... you must be one of the 4
Congratulations!!

[UAL777]

Don't know what some of you are upset about. I'm just stating facts here. Personally, I love it at United so I won't be leaving to go anywhere. I interviewed in Denver and I assure you that we have hired more than 4 pilots without a 4 year degree/ no college at all.. Also, I'm not connected at UAL in any way, shape or form. I simply applied, interviewed and got hired on my own merit. All of you are free to do the same. However, What United loved about me was the fact that I flew for Qatar Airways. It was a huge factor in my success in getting hired at UAL. The legacy carriers respect time spent at an airline like Qatar or Emirates.

[CaptainMongo]

Don't know what some of you are upset about. I'm just stating facts here. Personally, I love it at United so I won't be leaving to go anywhere. I interviewed in Denver and I assure you that we have hired more than 4 pilots without a 4 year degree/ no college at all.. Also, I'm not connected at UAL in any way, shape or form. I simply applied, interviewed and got hired on my own merit. All of you are free to do the same. However, What United loved about me was the fact that I flew for Qatar Airways. It was a huge factor in my success in getting hired at UAL. The legacy carriers respect time spent at an airline like Qatar or Emirates.

Oh - you were interviewed in Denver - you say it as if interviews were going on somewhere else for the past four years. UAL777, you need to get UAL's history right. You are a post merger (not even a constructive notice pilot) post ISL, post UPA new hire.

"They" loved your Qatar experience - really? On this forum, you pontificate as if you have some insight into United's hired process because you were hired. Reality check UAL777, you know nothing about United's hiring process, absolutely, positively, nothing. What you know is: you. got. hired.

How exactly do you know that because you flew for Qatar it had any influence on you being hired at my airline? All that "command" experience you demonstrated there? Oh because someone said it in your interview - Dude - you need a reality check. And exactly how do you know that United has hired more than 4 pilots without four year degrees or nor college at all? You don't, I know you don't. Even you can't be that big of a goober and believe what hiring information UAL puts out (which if you do, shows what a newbie you are....)

I submit you "know" none of the things you say you know, you are not "just stating facts" because unlike you, I know what I am talking about, and if you want to continue this nonsense, I most certainly will to its logical conclusion.

[paokara]

Don't know what some of you are upset about. I'm just stating facts here. Personally, I love it at United so I won't be leaving to go anywhere. I interviewed in Denver and I assure you that we have hired more than 4 pilots without a 4 year degree/ no college at all.. Also, I'm not connected at UAL in any way, shape or form. I simply applied, interviewed and got hired on my own merit. All of you are free to do the same. However, What United loved about me was the fact that I flew for Qatar Airways. It was a huge factor in my success in getting hired at UAL. The legacy carriers respect time spent at an airline like Qatar or Emirates.
You are such a liar... I highly doubt you are even a United employee...

If you got hired at 13 you did interview at Houston by Continental people and Charlie Vs people,

Because United Interviews and process did not start at TK in Denver till mid 2014

Go away .......



PS the 4 without college degree was an ALPA statistic during their job fair helping all ALPA members from the Regionals

[UAL777]

For your information, Charlie Venema Also held interviews in Denver. Get your facts straight!

[bafanguy]

UAL777,

I have no interest in picking a fight with anyone particularly where career choices are concerned since it's rather personal. I do, however, try to understand how it all works...and ask questions because my perspective is a bit limited.

In post #10, you said, "I got hired with United from Qatar Airways..." and then went on to represent Qatar as the equal (or better) of the US legacies as a career choice:

"Some of the guys posting here are over excited about airlines like United. Yes, it's a good company to work for but its very comparable to any large airline anywhere around the world, [NOTHING SPECIAL]."

Do you see Qatar or any ME carrier as a "comparable" place where a young pilot of Western origin would go expecting to remain in an alien culture for several decades ending with a ride into the sunset with sufficient pension intact ?

I got the impression that's what you meant to say...35 y/o ME WB captain as a better choice vs 50+ y/o US legacy WB captain...

You left Qatar.

I know two people who have flown for Qatar. One left and one wants to. Hardly statistically-significant data but information nonetheless (I'll disregard all the publicity Qatar [and other ME carriers] has gotten on the management-employee front due to "cultural" differences).

Careers are marathons, not sprints. And obviously, no guarantees apply; they obviously don't with the US legacies. I can document that. But, it's a roll of the dice with the choice of where to roll them being the critical factor for the best chance of success long term.

I'm curious how any ME carrier is a better or even equal choice for a young Western person choosing a long term career path.

I'd suggest you've grabbed the brass ring by flying for UAL. Some day we all wake up 65 years old and all is revealed. ;-)))

And it's then too late to repair any damage attributable to the choices of a younger self .

[zondaracer]

Well, last year UAL777 posted this:
Stay away from Qatar Airways. Horrible place to work with third world loser pilots..Emirates has issues also. The airline from Abu Dhabi is the best choice..I have worked for Qatar and the airline from Abu Dhabi. The airline from Abu Dhabi is a great place to work...There is nothing good about QR...nothing..
http://www.pprune.org/middle-east/574366-what-s-like-working-qatar-airways.html#post9264977

[bafanguy]

"I was wondering what was the probability of directly entering a US Major from an european airline."

Flykri,

So I assume you got your question answered ? :-))))