ADSB webinar Jeppesen/Garmin

[underfire]

There was an ADSB webinar put on by Jeppeson and Garmin. Some really good information on the ADSB implementation (in the US). I was mostly GA centric, so the information should be relevant for some of the questions regarding ADSB here in Oz.

There was opportunity to submit questions, and they have answered them.
http://ww1.jeppesen.com/documents/aviation/pdfs/ads-b-webinar-questions.pdf

This question and answer is relevant to the Oz market, as ADSB has been mandated, albeit V0. The US has mandated V2. EUR will follow the US, and currently, Boeing and Airbus, as well as ADSB providers, will be supplying V2.

http://i66.tinypic.com/28tyt05.jpg

It will be interesting to see how this all develops, personally, I think it was a big mistake for Oz to mandate ADSB at this point, especially V0.

[Capn Bloggs]

Unless you have ADS-B in, what's the relevance of "compatible between each other"?

Do you really think Australian ATC won't be able to use V2 ADS-B ie "not compatible"?

[underfire]

The point is, that if you have ADSB, you wont work with ADSB-2.

Australia ATC will have different ADSB systems, that is not really a problem. Cost is not an issue there. International aircraft will have ADSB-2.

ADSB aircraft will not see ADSB-2 aircraft and vice versa, that is the issue.

Many other features associated with ADSB, such as weather and trajectory are only available with ADSB-2.

[Capn Bloggs]

ADSB aircraft will not see ADSB-2 aircraft and vice versa, that is the issue.

If you don't have ADS-B in, it is not an issue. That is my point.

[underfire]

No, it will be just as though they dont have their transponder on.

You dont have ADSB-IN now, and you can still see that other aircraft, correct?

[Capn Bloggs]

You dont have ADSB-IN now, and you can still see that other aircraft, correct?
What do you mean "see", Underfire?

Are you seriously suggesting that TCAS will not see ADS-B 2 aircraft?

:confused:

[underfire]

What did Jeppeson reply to the question? This is NOT ADSB-IN.

http://i66.tinypic.com/28tyt05.jpg

Is your TCAS ADSB or ADSB-2?

Currently, does ATC have ADSB, or ADSB-2 receivers?

To be compliant in the US, you must have ADSB-2, so what does this all tell you?

Mandating ADSB 0 is about the same as mandating MS-DOS, when everyone else is mandating Windows.....

[Capn Bloggs]

Currently, does ATC have ADSB, or ADSB-2 receivers?
I dunno, you tell me.

As the alleged subject matter expert, Underfire, could you please answer my question: Will TCAS work with ADS-B 2? I cannot be bothered reading that whole document, and that screen grab doesn't remotely say that Australian ATC, or TCAS will not be able to "see" a ADS-B 2 box.

[LeadSled]

Folks,
For TCAS equipped aircraft, the TCAS is entirely independent of any ADS-B function.
With a 1090ES TCAS transponder, whatever ADS-B version information is being carried is being carried in vacant message slots within the transponder transmissions.
Tootle pip!!

[underfire]

Of course it is, BUT, TCAS works though the SSR transponder. What you may get, with a different version of ADSB, according to ASA, " ATC might not be able to SEE your aircraft, or may confuse it with another. You could also affect other systems such as TCAS" The word SEE is directly from ASA.

While Version 2 is 'accepted' by ASA, not all aircraft will be able to see you on TCAS. For ATC to be able to SEE you, you must affect certain settings as noted below. The TCAS may show an aircraft, but without the ID, or may not even show on the TCAS at all.

From ASA:
http://i68.tinypic.com/2e4aiko.jpg

While it is 'accepted', when running ADSB V1/V2, you must insure that your system has the following setting: Notice that while it states to use this, it also indicates no integrity, thus the TCAS and ATC will have issues. Long story short, for ADSB V1 and V2 aircraft, you must downgrade your system in OZ for ATC and other ADSB V0 aircraft. (which ADSB V0 has been mandated, not V2 as in the US, and the rest of the world)
http://i67.tinypic.com/x0uzpe.jpg

I cannot be bothered reading that whole document

Looks like it is time for you to start reading up on some documents.

[LeadSled]

You could also affect other systems such as TCAS"

Underfire,
I don't particularly care what Airservices says, TCAS is TCAS, and is not affected by any ADS-B system.
For years, there has been a standard to incorporate ADS-B IN data in TCAS processing, but as far as I am aware, NO major TCAS manufacturer has incorporated the standard, because it provided NO new functionality, there has been no customer demand.
This is a separate issue to ADS-B/C data for ATC use.
Remember, we are talking TCAS here, not other sundry proprietary collision warning/avoidance systems.
DO 260/260A/260B has got nothing to do with TCAS.
The only way "ADS-B" could affect TCAS is by turning the whole sodding 1090ES transponder off., or some internal fault achieving the same end result.
Tootle pip!!

[underfire]

They do not incorporate ADSB-IN because currently, it is not secure. No one wants a way in that is not encrypted.

Note that while ASA states they 'accept' ADSB-2, they also instruct foreign operators using ADSB-2, that they must set the NIC to '0'. This indicates no integrity of the signal and the corresponding location. So, in effect, what is shown on the ATC screen?

Bottom line, the US has mandated ADSB-2, so will ICAO, even for GA. ATC systems and aircraft systems will be built around ADSB-2. The graph above shows Boeing providing that with all new ac, and retro fitting existing ac. Mandating ADSB V0 will just create additional costs to upgrade to v2 in the very near future.

As noted above by ASA, TCAS will be affected, mostly because of the integration of ADSB and TCAS. Jeppeson, Garmin, and ASA all state the ADSB, ADSB V2 systems are not compatible.

[LeadSled]

underfire,
With the greatest of respect, it is as I say it is, processing ADS-B data in a TCAS solution adds nothing to the utility of the present TCAS system.
It has absolutely nothing to do with security ---- where did you ever get that idea, there is nothing more public than a transponder or ADS-B/C transmissions.
Back to the original question, TCAS is not in any way involved in ADS-B data transmission --- full stop!!
I really sincerely recommend you stick to facts, aviation is not (yet) part of the post-factual world --- but looking at some pprune posters, there is no shortage of potential post-factual (or fantasy world) posters.
Tootle pip!!

PS: DO260/260A/260B is all about varying levels of position/data integrity. Australia "promoted" a very early ADS-B solution (DO-260/0?) to rush a system into operation, and supplied a number of operators with " CASA approved" hardware --- now the shortcomings of that ambition of AsA are becoming evident to many --- some of us have always understood the ramifications, especially $$$$$ to solve a problem that did not and does not exist.
There is and was nothing "unsafe" about what Australia did/does, just vast unnecessary cost for operators.