UK Caravelle?

[c52]

With Flight International featuring the Caravelle at the moment, I was wondering if any UK airline came close to buying it.

Anyone know anything?

[lotus1]

There is a mention in the history of a ferry the Kent based charter company in the 60s from manston Kent that they where interested in the caravelle and also the comet before they where folded up by BUA a very interesting book and read

[lotus1]

Sorry that should be air ferry?

[Planemike]

Air Ferry...........even !!!!

[KelvinD]

Or Airy Fairy even.
I flew on a couple of these in the 1980s between Damascus and Bahrain (Syrian Airlines). They were never full. And, working with/for government organisations, I was always sat next to a sky marshal. The Syrians thought I would feel somehow safer being sat in close proximity to the man with the gun. I invariably made my excuses after take off and found a more isolated seat!

[G-ARZG]

Not UK, but nearby, Aer Lingus seemingly wanted the Caravelle but their government of the day wouldn't have it...so 4 x BAC1-11's instead

[DaveReidUK]

Not UK, but nearby, Aer Lingus seemingly wanted the Caravelle but their government of the day wouldn't have it...so 4 x BAC1-11's instead

Though not many airlines got 25+ years from their Avon Caravelles. :O

[G-ARZG]

Agreed, Dave
Probably worked out OK for them in the end
(from an unashamedly huge fan of the 1-11)

'ZG

[oldchina]

By the end of the 1960's BAC were no longer treating the Caravelle as a competitor

[c52]

Looks as if the answer is "not really". I wonder if any French airlines thought of acquiring the Trident or 1-11.

[N707ZS]

There's at least one book on the history of the Caravelle and who bought it and who thought about buying it.

[SpringHeeledJack]

I'd wager back then that politics would have been the 'captain at the wheel' in regards to purchasing aircraft, especially considering the thriving home based industries on both sides of the channel. Maybe there were aircraft purchased from the 'enemy' but I can't think of any ? The airlines most likely would have, if left to their own devices.

[Hussar 54]

Air France did buy and operate Viscounts, although I'm not too sure the French themselves had a directly comparable aircraft available....

[DaveReidUK]

Before the Caravelles came along, a route like Paris/London would be operated mainly by DC-4s and the odd Connie.

Plus the occasional Breguet Provence, in the days before most of them were converted to freighters (which were subsequently a fairly common sight at LHR):

http://abpic.co.uk/pictures/full_size_0134/1202746-medium.jpg

[oldchina]

c52:
"I wonder if any French airlines thought of acquiring the Trident or 1-11"


Air Inter thought about acquiring the One-Eleven, but that's as far as it went. "Fancy some more RR engines Alphonse?"

[HZ123]

Alphonse is a German name!

[pax britanica]

Air france Viscounts were regulars into LHR and AF operated V700s for about 15 years according to another site, It also said they ordered 12 which was quite decent number for the time and indeed the viscount at LHR was very much the A319/320 of its dayas the dominant type at Heathrow.

However AF were great for spotters because they threw in all kinds of things as the earleir poster suggested on freight trips and flights to places like Marseilles , DC4s Connies, the wonderful Deux Pont, which it is often alleged only got to 5000ft by the coast , even DC3s and several of these survived into the Caravelle /707 320 era too.

[oldchina]

"Alphonse is a German name"
Are you sure you're not thinking of Adolf ?

[The AvgasDinosaur]

Many years ago I had the good fortune to have a trip round Alidair at East Midlands (Castle Donnington). In their hangar was a scale model ( travel agent size ) of a Caravelle 11R ( I think - the cargo convertible one) in full Alidair Cargo colour scheme. The guy on escort told me they were considering ex Iberia aircraft at the time.
Never did find out what went wrong.
I wish someone could photoshop one for me, as photography was not permitted inside the hangar.
Hope it helps
Be lucky
Dave

[The AvgasDinosaur]

There's at least one book on the history of the Caravelle and who bought it and who thought about buying it.
I have two on my shelf
"Sud Est Caravelle" By A. Avrane, M. Gilliand and J. GUillem ISBN 0 7106 0044 5
and the mighty tome
"Caravelle The Complete Story" by John Wegg ISBN 0 9653993 1 0 Does exactly what it says on the cover.
I think second hand is anyone's best hope nowadays
Hope it helps,
Be lucky
David

[DaveReidUK]

John Wegg's book is generally considered to be the definitive book on the Caravelle.

[NorthernChappie]

Abiding last memory of the Caravelle should have been late night at Glasgow in 1981 trying to sleep before early holiday flight and being woken by astonishing roar that not even triple glazing could keep out - source unknown. Actual last memory was a 1st anniversary trip a year later in September 1982 to Paris from Glasgow and discovering that the aforementioned roar from the year before was an Air Toulouse Super 10 that was our transport to Beauvais and back. Have some phots somewhere. First and only Caravelle flights.

[ian16th]

US$9 upwards
(https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=A.+Avrane&sts=t&tn=Sud+Est+Caravelle)

[ericferret]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mknbL9IsHI

It's even got it's own song!!!!

[WHBM]

The first production batch of Viscounts were divided equally between BEA and Air France, odd construction numbers to BEA, even numbers to AF. The AF ones held the Paris to London route down until the arrival of the Caravelle, later supplemented by spare L-1049 Constellations on occasion.

My own last Caravelle sighting was about 1992. I was in Berlin, post-wall coming down, and had seen previously that one was still scheduled with Syrian Arab on a once-weekly Saturday Copenhagen-Berlin-Damascus run, which seemed a bit unlikely. Forgot about it, was out on the Saturday on the local S-Bahn train which passes some miles to the north of Schonefeld airport, and there it came by absolute coincidence, just gliding down finals into the field. And I did run across in the train from left to right to watch it disappear. Last one.

[treadigraph]

Sad isn't it? I can't recall the last time I saw a Caravelle in the air. A beautiful piece of kit...

[lederhosen]

First jet I ever landed in the cockpit. Still remember the gauloise stuck to the lower lip of the flight engineer as we touched down. It may have been loud outside, deafening even as you walked up the tail air stair, but there was just a muted hum inside. The French have built some beautiful looking aircraft as well as some real shockers.

[DaveReidUK]

First jet I ever landed in the cockpit. Still remember the gauloise stuck to the lower lip of the flight engineer as we touched down. It may have been loud outside, deafening even as you walked up the tail air stair, but there was just a muted hum inside. The French have built some beautiful looking aircraft as well as some real shockers.

Of course you were really sitting in a Comet nose. :O

[WHBM]

A lot of the Caravelle came from the UK. The Rolls-Royce engines, of course, and the design of the nose and flight deck was by De Havilland (and the early noses were actually built at Hatfield), which is why it looks like a Comet (unkind suggestions that the noses of grounded Comet 1s had been cut off and sent to Toulouse :) ). A lot of the systems stuff as well, there wasn't a great French aerospace supply industry in the 1950s.

[lederhosen]

One bit of caravelle trivia was the french fitting one out with cameras and in clear weather on trips eastwards straying off the airways to snap pictures of interesting features.....nothing the other side did not do of course. I think Paris Match (of all unlikely mags) might even have run an article on this (much later of course). The other unlikely fact I remember was Sterling (in jet vicar days) using them on transatlantic passenger flights, probably via Iceland (so I suppose not that different from Wow today). Either way I have always had a soft spot for the caravelle.

[ATNotts]

The other unlikely fact I remember was Sterling (in jet vicar days) using them on transatlantic passenger flights, probably via Iceland

They went to Florida if my memory serves me correctly, with multiple stops en route. I believe that in addition to Iceland, they stopped in either Bangor or Gander, and at least once again on the way to the sunshine state.

I'm sure someone out there had log books or planning documents confirming the routings.

[Yellow Sun]

I found it interesting that the Swedish Air Force used the Caravelle as an Elint platform but the French never did. AFAIK

YS

[WHBM]

We had an extensive discussion about Sterling's transatlantic Caravelle operations over on Flyertalk.

Favoured destinations in the late 1960s-1970s included Santo Domingo, Orlando, and San Francisco/Los Angeles. The latter were a real haul and typically routed from Copenhagen via Keflavik, Bangor and Omaha. It was the more advanced P&W-engine Caravelles used, of course. Notably, Omaha was as far west as United Caravelles were scheduled, and thus had licensed ground engineers, while SFO, although well removed from those eastern Caravelle schedules, was their main maintenance base, they would ferry to and fro.

Other Sterling ultra-long haul Caravelle holiday charters were to Toronto, Bangkok and Natal in Brazil. One of the Bangkok flights crashed into high ground approaching a Dubai refuelling stop one night.

The P&W engine aircraft also had a feature that most of the RR aircraft did not, namely a drop-down supplementary oxygen system. The Caravelle originally did not, but when the fleet of 20 was sold to United the FAA flat refused to give a jet a certificate without it. Hitherto they had relied on keeping under 30,000, a few portable sets with flight attendants, and a crew making an instant emergency descent if there was a decompression at altitude. I presume the Air France F- registered Caravelles that operated from the Caribbean into Miami at the time, or likewise the South American operators, were somehow accepted. I wonder what the UK CAA would have made of it if offered for a UK certificate. It never was.

[SpringHeeledJack]

I found it interesting that the Swedish Air Force used the Caravelle as an Elint platform but the French never did. AFAIK

I think that they went from a propeller platform straight to the DC-8 that they kept up until relatively recently. The Douglas aircraft had more space and endurance so Sud Aviation lost a customer. There's one in the Musee de L'Air at Le Bourget.

[chevvron]

Abiding last memory of the Caravelle should have been late night at Glasgow in 1981 trying to sleep before early holiday flight and being woken by astonishing roar that not even triple glazing could keep out - source unknown. Actual last memory was a 1st anniversary trip a year later in September 1982 to Paris from Glasgow and discovering that the aforementioned roar from the year before was an Air Toulouse Super 10 that was our transport to Beauvais and back. Have some phots somewhere. First and only Caravelle flights.
I remember a couple of them at Glasgow in '72. They belonged to a subsidiary of Air France.(Air Inter?)
Landed on 06 and both streamed their brake chutes; they then taxied in one behind the other with the brake chutes still attached and waving about in the jet efflux until they parked!!

[G-ARZG]

"Air Charter International" as I recall.

Kind of 'Air France Airtours' if you will..

'ZG

[suninmyeyes]

I used to fly on a Caravelle regularly between 1977 and 1978 from Heathrow to Luxembourg with Luxair. I remember it being quite quiet inside. The cabin crew complained that they did not have any control of the temperature in the passenger cabin and were always asking the flight crew to turn it up or down. Correct me if I am wrong but I think it was the first of the tail mounted jets. I remember the 1967 Caravelle flight belonging to Iberia that crashed while going into Heathrow. The bodies were all buried at Brookwood cemetery.

[JEM60]

One of the victims was the actress June Thorburn, who had a part in 'The Cruel Sea'

[Wander00]

You know I had a teenage crush on her, never knew she died in an air crash, she just seemed to disappear from movies

[WHBM]

I remember a couple of them at Glasgow in '72. They belonged to a subsidiary of Air FranceThey were regulars at Edinburgh as well at the time, notably on gloomy winter days when France were playing Scotland at Rugby, up to three of them would be parked opposite where the old terminal used to be, two from Orly and one from some provincial point. In the summer they used to do student charter flights on the same routes.

[maxred]

The most striking Caravelle I remember at Glasgow was Transavia. I thought it the most exotic, other than the Super Connie, aeroplane I had ever seen.

[maxred]

http://saadonline.co.uk/dir/wp-content/uploads/Transavia-Caravelle-PH-TRH.jpg

[The AvgasDinosaur]

In 1967 Sud Aviation began to deliver Caravelles fitted with P&W JT8D-9 which raised the MTOW to 123,460 lb MTOW meaning Sterling could carry 109 pax 4,000km. These aircraft had a modified fin for twin Collins HF transceivers and a belly tank. With these they commenced transatlantic flights ( on a twin long before ETOPS !). First service 23/6/70 Copenhagen - Omaha Nebraska via tech stops at Kevlavik and Gander. In December 70 they flew Oslo- Gander direct 2,268 nm ( 4,200 km )in 5 hr 33 mins. Long range cruise was around 280 kts IAS between FL310 and FL350. The aircraft were fitted with HF SELCAL and LORAN carried in the side pockets of the cockpit. Later the aircraft were fitted with VLF Omega navigation.
50 flights were operated in 1971 and fifty in 1972 in 1972 MTOW was raised to 125,660 lbs, but 1973 only twenty flights were undertaken as the opposition started to field higher capacity 4 engined aircraft in competition.
Above info from John Wegg's previously mentioned book.
Sadly the only one I could find for sale is £435, the French editions are a bit cheaper and more numerous.
Hope it helps.
Be lucky
David

[WHBM]

First service 23/6/70 Copenhagen - Omaha Nebraska via tech stops at Kevlavik and Gander.I presume Omaha was an intermediate fuel stop on the way to LAX or SFO, as I described above. But I'm surprised at the routing quoted, for I had believed they used Bangor rather than Gander. Omaha had, I understand, no US immigration facility, and there's no pre-clearance at Gander. Nor has the US accepted intermediate stops prior to an onward leg within the country without immigration clearance. Doing this at the first point has always been required.

[The AvgasDinosaur]

I used to fly on a Caravelle regularly between 1977 and 1978 from Heathrow to Luxembourg with Luxair. I remember it being quite quiet inside. The cabin crew complained that they did not have any control of the temperature in the passenger cabin and were always asking the flight crew to turn it up or down. Correct me if I am wrong but I think it was the first of the tail mounted jets. I remember the 1967 Caravelle flight belonging to Iberia that crashed while going into Heathrow. The bodies were all buried at Brookwood cemetery.
I think this is the one you are looking for. http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19671104-1
Be lucky
David

[Krystal n chips]

" and both streamed their brake chutes "

I seem to recall watching AF at MAN doing the same, albeit I think they also had a couple of other problems when landing, hence the stream.

Just being curious therefore as to how often operators did actually use this option, when, and why.

[washoutt]

If I remember correctly, ETOPS is the permission for a twin engined aircraft to fly more than 60 minutes single engined from an alternative airport. Does anyone know if Kevlavik and Gander would fit a flightplan in that respect? If not, then these oceanic Caravelle flights are remarkable, for the twin engine 60 minute rule dates back to the '50s.

[The AvgasDinosaur]

" and both streamed their brake chutes "

I seem to recall watching AF at MAN doing the same, albeit I think they also had a couple of other problems when landing, hence the stream.

Just being curious therefore as to how often operators did actually use this option, when, and why.
The brake chutes were fitted because the early Caravelles did not have thrust reverse, I believe, so when runways were wet or icy or not sufficient headwind then the chute would be deployed.
Hope it helps
Be lucky
Dave

[chevvron]

One of the victims was the actress June Thorburn, who had a part in 'The Cruel Sea'
I'd rather remember her in Gullivers Travels early 60s.

[WHBM]

Caravelle III and VI-N (the earlier types) did not have thrust reversers on their Rolls Royce Avon engines. The VI-R (R for reverse) introduced this feature for the United order, as did the 10/11/12 types with P&W JT8Ds. Air France, among others, continued to buy the III model throughout, their last new one (airframe 260 out of 280 total produced) came in 1970.

Deploying the brake parachute was a nuisance for the station engineer, who was responsible for repacking it. At mainstream stations substitute ready-packed chutes were available for substitution, but if there were none then it was probably good if the engineer had some skydiving club experience. The chute could also be released on the runway after deployment, whereupon it might blow about until the engineer in their van managed to chase and catch it. This was yet another feature which caused the FAA to say about the original models "no way". As well as requiring the drop-down oxy system they also rejected the flight deck windows as being too small, so from the VI-R onwards these are notably larger.

[Allan Lupton]

I well remember the chief engineer of Irving Airchute trying to persuade us to use parachute braking on our airliners. We rejected the idea for much the reasons WHBM covers - i.e. release it after use and then try to catch it or else drag it on the ground and wear it out. It was said that a self-packing 'chute was being developed which could have solved that problem, but our operations specialist believed that pilots liked to be able to check that braking systems functioned whilst taxi-ing out - second nature with wheel brakes and airbrakes but impossible with a 'chute.

Back to Caravelles, in the early days of Airbus we often did day trips to Paris and found the 08:00 AF Caravelle (LHR-ORY) was less full than the 08:00 BEA Trident and often landed first! Returning in the evening we used BEA as we could leave the Sud Aviation office near the Bois de Boulogne by taxi at 16:45 and be on the 17:30 Trident (or Comet in one case) flight from Le Bourget.

[falcon12]

Back in the mid 70's I worked on the 10 series aircraft when SATA in Zurich had 3 of them for flying down to the Med and other places. Main memories were the indifferent Flight systems/ILS and having to sit on the wing and top up the fuel tanks for the longer range flights!!
SATA also had DC8-50's and 63's which more my cup of tea. In those days, 4 engines were good.

[DaveReidUK]

so when runways were wet or icy or not sufficient headwind

Or when the runway was simply too short (AF charters to Edinburgh when it only had the 6,000' runway, for example).

[dixi188]

If I remember correctly, ETOPS is the permission for a twin engined aircraft to fly more than 60 minutes single engined from an alternative airport. Does anyone know if Kevlavik and Gander would fit a flightplan in that respect? If not, then these oceanic Caravelle flights are remarkable, for the twin engine 60 minute rule dates back to the '50s.

I have an idea that the old rules were 90 mins from an alternate for twin engined aircraft.

In Etops times, several operators have used non ETOPS aircraft on North Atlantic ops. using a northern route to have Keflavik, Narssaraq, and Gander as alternates.

In a previous life, the company I worked for bid for a TNT route to JFK using A300-B4s, but an Icelandic airline got the contract.

[Cymmon]

I have John Weggs book, excellent reference manual.

[The AvgasDinosaur]

I have John Weggs book, excellent reference manual.
I.M.H.O. It's how aircraft type monographs should be written. The chapter on the Narco-Jets is worthy of a book on its own.
Highly professional , totally readable, so comprehensive a joy to read!
Be lucky
David

[Chris Scott]

My first and last flight in a Caravelle was with Air France from Heathrow to Nice in the summer of 1959, and it was my first experience of jet flight. (To put it into context, the Comet 4 and B707 had only been in service about 9 months, and IIRC only on the North Atlantic, although the Comet 1 had preceded both all-too-briefly in the early 1950s.)

The Caravelle's climb performance was a revelation after the piston and turboprop aeroplanes in which I'd flown previously, and the cabin was - of course - remarkably quiet by comparison.

I'd never seen or felt airbrakes before, and on that flight they were used a lot in the descent. IIRC, they slid out vertically from the wing and may have had holes in them. Cymmon and other possessors of the John Wegg book may be able to correct me on that?

We watched the a/c depart from Nice while waiting for our onward flight (by DC-6B) and were duly impressed by its T/O.

I think the (smaller) BAC 1-11 was a more elegant design with its T-Tail, but at least the Caravelle - AFAIK - didn't have the propensity to deep-stall.

[WHBM]

Main memories were the indifferent Flight systems/ILSSud must have got to grips with this because not particularly realised is that the Caravelle was the first Autoland airliner, beating the Trident into service with a system which was fundamentally different. BEA's efforts on the Trident were driven primarily by winter fog at Heathrow impacting services, but Air Inter, particularly on Paris-Lyon, apparently got this even worse, and the route, number one French internal route in those days, was marginal with the train (nowadays the TGV has swept all before it between these cities).


I well remember the chief engineer of Irving Airchute trying to persuade us to use parachute braking on our airliners ... Back to Caravelles, in the early days of Airbus we often did day trips to Paris
Um ... you're not going to tell us that they were proposing braking parachutes on the A300 ??? :eek:

[Allan Lupton]

Um ... you're not going to tell us that they were proposing braking parachutes on the A300 ??? :eek:
I'm not, as it was while we were working on Trident derivatives and feeder liners and we needed lateral thinking to give the latter the airfield performance we thought we needed.

[Cymmon]

Hi Chris Scott, yes the Caravelle did indeed have air brakes on the wing, exactly as you describe..

I was lucky enough to be on the last Air Inter flight of the Caravelle 12.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

They were common at EGCC in the '60s. I well remember their twin Avons rattling the peace of the Bollin Valley woods as they blasted Paris-wards off 24.

One day, passing the 06 threshold in the school bus (the Wilmslow road crossed close to the western end of 24 in those pre-tunnel days, with gates closed to road traffic for 06 arrivals) we saw a Caravelle had run off the end of the runway and was axle-deep in the mud. I seem to recall it took some time to move.

As an aside I saw my first VC10 from that bus, a diversion from Heathrow (East African I think) landing on 06 as we waited at the gates.

[Midland 331]

My late former boss at SAS Manchester, (Willie Mason), told me that the first ever SAS Caravelle to land there deployed it's chute in flamboyant fashion. Was it a statement, or simply that there wasn't much runway there way back when?

[pax britanica]

Saw a Swissair Caravelle stream the chut on landing T lhr in mid 60s. Even then i imagine Atc not impressed as several go arounds. Not sure why it did it as stopedwell short of western end of 28L . Fo slid down a rope from bbc door to go and inspect while fire and maintenance vehicles headed for it so perhaps had a prob with brakes after landing

[Cymmon]

Just done a little research and my one and only flight on a Caravelle, a series 12 was the last flight by Air Inter on August 3rd 1991.

F-GCVK , Nantes to Paris Orly, lined up at 1614 and arrived at 1650. Seat 18D.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

"My late former boss at SAS Manchester, (Willie Mason), told me that the first ever SAS Caravelle to land there deployed it's chute in flamboyant fashion. Was it a statement, or simply that there wasn't much runway there way back when?"

Probably quite short back then. Since the mostly prop era of the mid '60s it's been considerably extended at both ends in several stages to the couple of miles it is today.

[WHBM]

Just done a little research and my one and only flight on a Caravelle, a series 12 was the last flight by Air Inter on August 3rd 1991.

F-GCVK , Nantes to Paris Orly, lined up at 1614 and arrived at 1650. Seat 18D.
Pleased to note that 25 years on it still exists as a ground trainer

https://www.planespotters.net/photo/100690/f-gcvk-air-inter-sud-aviation-se-210-caravelle-12-super-caravelle

[Akrotiri bad boy]

I'm with SSD in remembering the Caravelle's appearances at Ringway. When I stalked the terraces in the '70's they were frequent enough but stood out from other types both on the ground and airborne. The AF evening arrival was usually a Caravelle along with regular Sunday appearances by Sterling. The holiday charters accounted for the bulk of appearances with Aviaco being the front runner along with JAT. Infrequent visits uncluded Transavia and Transeuropa, the French Air Charter International and an Italian outfit that used to stand in for Alitalia, (SAM I think). I'm not sure if Spantax and Balair used to operate Caravelles into Ringway as well. The only chutes I saw streamed were AF's.

[vctenderness]

After reading this thread I got my Classic Civil Airliners Guide from 1920-1964 out. Suprisingly there is not a section on the Caravelle but there is a section on the Vickers Viscount V.708 and oddly it features the Air France version. F-BGNK was, in fact, the first Viscount to be built and the first to be exported. It first flew on 11th March 1953 and delivered on18th May.

Unfortunately it crashed fatally during a crew training flight on 12th December 1956 near Paris killing the five Air France crew.

[DaveReidUK]

F-BGNK was, in fact, the first Viscount to be built and the first to be exported. It first flew on 11th March 1953 and delivered on18th May.

Fifth production Viscount (MSN 8, first Air France V.708), preceded by a batch of V.701s for BEA.

[vctenderness]

Slap on the wrist for the editor, David Donald, required then!

[Cymmon]

I also remember Altair of Italy operating some Caravelle III's into Manchester 1981-1983 ish?

PS: Anyone interested in purchasing said Caravelle book by John Wegg in English? PM me.

[WHBM]

I'm with SSD in remembering the Caravelle's appearances at Ringway. When I stalked the terraces in the '70's they were frequent enough but stood out from other types both on the ground and airborne. The AF evening arrival was usually a Caravelle along with regular Sunday appearances by Sterling. The holiday charters accounted for the bulk of appearances with Aviaco being the front runner along with JAT. Infrequent visits uncluded Transavia and Transeuropa, the French Air Charter International and an Italian outfit that used to stand in for Alitalia, (SAM I think). I'm not sure if Spantax and Balair used to operate Caravelles into Ringway as well. The only chutes I saw streamed were AF's



I also remember Altair of Italy operating some Caravelle III's into Manchester 1981-1983 ish?




SAM, like a number of European charter operators of the era, were a subsidiary of the national carrier, Alitalia in this case, using a hand-me-down fleet with minimal livery modifications. Employed on holiday flights in peak season, much of their off-season work would often come, as apparently here, from chartering back to their mainstream owner. Air Charter were the same with Air France, and likewise Aviaco with Iberia.

Transeuropa had a substantial holiday flight programme from Spain into Manchester for Harry Goodman's Intasun holiday brand, in the period before he started in-house operator Air Europe. Knowing Goodman they had probably just managed to undercut Dan-Air by a pound or two. There was a further Spanish Caravelle charter operator called TAE, who were notably rare, and generally just did odd subcharters.

Neither Spantax nor Balair had Caravelles, though I can see the latter running their owner Swissair's aircraft under their own flight numbers.

I remember seeing several Caravelles of Italian carrier Altair at Palma in summer 1983. It seemed bizarre that travellers from one Mediterranean country would take package holidays to another.

[TCU]

With its cockpit and engine commonality with the Comet, did the Caravelle ever figure in Dan Air plans? Perhaps the Comets were so readily and cheaply available, that it was just easier to operate this jet type before the 1-11's became available

MEA seems to be the only airline I can think of who operated the Caravelle and Comet side by side

[WHBM]

With its cockpit and engine commonality with the Comet, did the Caravelle ever figure in Dan Air plans? Perhaps the Comets were so readily and cheaply available, that it was just easier to operate this jet type before the 1-11's became available

MEA seems to be the only airline I can think of who operated the Caravelle and Comet side by sideCaravelle needed an FE, same as the Comet, so being a smaller aircraft there would be little cost advantage.

I think Aerolineas Argentinas were the other Comet/Caravelle buyer. Egyptair had several leased long-term from Sterling in the 1970s which ran together when the Tu154s, bought to replace the Comets, were sent back within months and some leased capacity was needed to fill the gap.

[Richard Taylor]

Beautiful aircraft, the Caravelle. We did see them occasionally at ABZ:

*Aviaco I'm sure did the early 70s IT flights to PMI with a Caravelle before the DC9
*Hispania in the early 80s (Fri pm when I saw it anyway)
*Sterling
*Minerve (France) - was a one-off flight c1985 for some reason I remember!

[WHBM]

There is a tremendous display of old travel agency window aircraft models, including just about every Spanish Caravelle operator, in the long corridors leading to the departure gates at Palma airport. It's been there for a while, in multiple display stands.

[treadigraph]

Beautiful aircraft, the Caravelle

Indeed.

Trying to recall whose I saw. Heathrow, Air France and Luxair certainly. Possibly TAP and Tunis Air. Gatwick, CTA, SAM, Transavia, Minerve, ACI, Transeuropa, Hispania, Sterling. Maybe the odd EAS. Altair rings a bell too. Sobelair?

[seafire6b]

Heathrow: Air France and Luxair certainly. Possibly TAP and Tunis AirAlso, and in my case definitely: Finnair, SAS, Iberia, Austrian, Swissair, Alitalia, Royal Air Maroc, Sabena, JAT ....

My first flights aboard a Caravelle were LHR-BCN and return during the summer of '69. Iberia obviously, who were kind enough to give me ID100 tickets (freebees!) - in those days, the only way to fly!

Then, from 1972 onwards, various flights on Caravelles within Brazil on Cruzeiro do Sul's domestic network. Great days. Lively nights.

[ANW]

The first Caravelle to visit Manchester was F-BHHI on 30 July 1958.

Photo here (http://www.edendale.co.uk/GO/MAN.1.2.html) of an Air France Caravelle towing its brake 'chute at MAN, May 1965,

[NorthernChappie]

Abiding last memory of the Caravelle should have been late night at Glasgow in 1981 trying to sleep before early holiday flight and being woken by astonishing roar that not even triple glazing could keep out - source unknown. Actual last memory was a 1st anniversary trip a year later in September 1982 to Paris from Glasgow and discovering that the aforementioned roar from the year before was an Air Toulouse Super 10 that was our transport to Beauvais and back. Have some phots somewhere. First and only Caravelle flights.


Just spotted my (grave) error. Would be grave if madam read this :ouch: as I managed to get wedding date wrong by 10 years. For 1981 and 1982, read 1991 and 1992 at Glasgow. Must have been right at the end of its life.

[WHBM]

1991 and 1992 at Glasgow. Must have been right at the end of its life. Had a way to go. Air Toulouse bought its Caravelles (which were several P&W-powered 10B3s) in 1991-2, then slowly ran them down until the last one was withdrawn at the start of 1997. Of course, they would often be no longer used in service well before the official withdrawl date and hand-in of certificate.

As ever in France, one of their fleet (originally new to Sterling) is still around, preserved at what was both the airline's home base and the aircraft's manufacturing plant.


https://www.planespotters.net/photo/418461/f-ghmu-air-toulouse-sud-aviation-se-210-caravelle

[bafanguy]

The Caravelle does have a dedicated FE position, right ? I've looked at a few YouTube videos with cockpit footage and "think" I see a 3rd crewmember and some sort of instrumentation where you'd expect to see a FE station. But, there's no mention of that position.

I have a vague recollection of an acquaintance going to work for UAL in the late '60s...and starting as a Caravelle FE. Am I imagining that ?

The guy who built the simulator from an old cockpit section had a real project on his hands:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y08ZGnx0uQA