Command upgrades at Jet2

[DarkSoldier]

Would anyone who is either in Jet2 currently or been there recently, or know about it, have any information on the upgrade process there please. More importantly things like:

- are upgrades actively encouraged?
- what is the process like, I have heard it is not that well defined and you are sort of left on your own to get through it
- are they hard on you and fail you for minor things or do they like to get guys through?

Basically...do I get CMD in RYR which I can soon, or (assuming I get an offer) do I try my luck in Jet2 and hope command will happen in a year or so...

Thanks

[VJW]

I'd advise doing the command in RYR first. Not that I suspect it's easier, but makes up your mind if you fail the RYR command. Plus going from RYR to Jet2 as a Captain would be easier as you'd be more 'valuable' to Jet2..

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

- are upgrades actively encouraged? - Absolutely

- what is the process like, I have heard it is not that well defined and you are sort of left on your own to get through it - I don't think you are left completely on your own, there is a new (and still developing) upgrade process in place. Some of the work is done on your lonesome, but there are mentors that can be assigned to guide you along the way.

- are they hard on you and fail you for minor things or do they like to get guys through? - in my opinion they try to get guys through. Define "minor things" and I might be able to answer, also, where are these "minor things" happening? If the "minor thing" is in your LPC, then you will probably have to repeat it, just like any ordinary LPC, if it's during the discussions during the upgrade process then no, it will be discussed and a correct answer will be achieved.

Basically...do I get CMD in RYR which I can soon, or (assuming I get an offer) do I try my luck in Jet2 and hope command will happen in a year or so... - there's really only you can answer that. Look at the Jet2 Autumn 2014 thread lower down this page and start at about page 45 of that, plenty of why's and wherefore's on there regarding FR vs Jet2.

[DDobinpilot]

If Jet2 offers you a better lifestyle I would say go for it, take Jet2 and nail the command course in a years time, if your plan is to enter Jet2 as a captain I assume they operate out of a base you want or would offer you a better lifestyle than RYR.

I tend not to subscribe to these various rumours that the X airline command course is difficult, or you have to avoid such and such a training captain or you'll fail etc, you'll end up calling in sick for half of your checks if you subscribe to that sort of thinking, and generally try and go in with the attitude that they want you to pass and it is yours to fail. I can appreciate that much of it is luck of the draw, if you have a complicated problem come up whilst on the initial command line check or bad weather etc but that's the nature of the job I suppose.

[zerotohero]

A year in Jet2 to get on a command course is extreamly optimistic in my opinion. You will need 2 sims before even getting your name in the hat then there will be a good 6months to a year to get on a development week. Then a few other hoops.

By which time you have done your RYR command and got 1000hrs left seat and Jet2 will Hoover you up as a DEC and you will get your base of choice and double your potential Jet2 F/O salary

I know what I would do!
Oh wait I did that!

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

I suppose it depends on where they send you for the Command and whether that is an acceptable trade off.

[Mr Good Cat]

I guess it's relative to what you're used to.

I've no experience of Ryanair's training department but my limited experience of Jet 2's training in the short time I've been here is nothing but positive. I'm sure there are the bad eggs that exist in all companies but on the whole it's very training-orientated, especially compared to legacy carriers in the Middle/Far East.

I've heard things were not this way in the distant past and maybe that tarnishes the reputation of the training department even now, which is a shame. Had the pleasure to meet the training management and a lot of the trainers and they've all been great guys.

If I can offer one piece of advice it would be this:

Prepare 110% for your command course and put the effort in studying on your days off, going through every manual with a fine tooth comb making notes. When you get to the sim you'll feel more confident that you know your stuff and the instructors will see that you're willing to put the effort in to learn and correct any mistakes. If you turn up expecting to be 'taught' everything there is to the job of a Commander, then you have contradicted some of the qualities expected of a Commander. It doesn't exactly display good Leadership or Integrity. "Preparedness makes us powerful".

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

Is there any truth to the rumours of a 'checking/chopping' mentally in the training department?

Having quickly scanned through the last 10 pages of proficiency check results (there are 50 prof checks per page) I counted 3 fails. There is NO chopping mentality despite what some people think, we are there to help you as necessary to reach the standards should you not manage to do so at the first attempt, unfortunately there will always be some who, despite the guidance, still don't meet the required standard. Comprehensive retraining is provided to those candidates in order that they can then demonstrate the required standard.

[samca]

Hi guys, one question. Jet2 bond you even if you go as DEFO?

[Jumbo2]

Yeah they do.
I've read somewhere it is £7.5k for a rated FO, which seems rather high and makes you wonder if it is a means to tie people to the company for a few years and discourage them from leaving (having said that I've no idea what other companies do these days and it might be standard practice).

For a non rated FO it is still £25k+ I believe, but might be wrong.

As far as I'm aware there is no bond for internally upgraded FO's.

[samca]

Can not understand how a company bond a pilot with a type rating on the fleet he is going to fly. It is not fair. In that case I was looking for Alicante or maybe Palma de Mallorca and a change from RYR to JET2 but I think I´m going to continue looking for other options.

Thanks for the answer Jumbo2.

[CargoOne]

Can not understand how a company bond a pilot with a type rating on the fleet he is going to fly. It is not fair.


It is very fair indeed. You always forget to count how much company has spent on screening, sim assessment, convertion course - groung and sim, crm/wet/fire/first aid etc and finally on the line training. If you put that all together 7,5k sounds very reasonable to make sure people don't jump in a few weeks. All airlines hr/flt ops depts full of stories when pilots have left just after the line training completetion just because there was a couple of hundred quid better offer pop up around the corner.

[tubby linton]

It is not fair. Training costs can be recliamed by the employer!

"If an employee needs training as a necessity to carry out their job (so that the training is 'wholly, exclusively and necessarily incurred') then tax relief will be given. The key word here is 'necessarily' as unless the training is necessary, its cost is not deductible."

[samca]

It is very fair indeed. You always forget to count how much company has spent on screening, sim assessment, convertion course - groung and sim, crm/wet/fire/first aid etc and finally on the line training. If you put that all together 7,5k sounds very reasonable to make sure people don't jump in a few weeks. All airlines hr/flt ops depts full of stories when pilots have left just after the line training completetion just because there was a couple of hundred quid better offer pop up around the corner.

No my friend it is not fair. In fact since the beginning of aviation companies everysingle expense in training has been paid by the company. And taking into account that you have type+experience on type there is no point to bond DEFO.

[FlightDetent]

tubbby: tax relief and re-claiming cost are as close as ... gear-down and touch-down?
samca: :) that's quite delusional.

[CargoOne]

It is not fair. Training costs can be recliamed by the employer!

"If an employee needs training as a necessity to carry out their job (so that the training is 'wholly, exclusively and necessarily incurred') then tax relief will be given. The key word here is 'necessarily' as unless the training is necessary, its cost is not deductible."

Training costs cannot be reclaimed (unless this is a specific government initiative for poor regions development etc). Training costs are the same costs like fuel, landing fees or salaries. Majority of airline costs form the non-taxable base. I am not sure what tax relief has to do with bonding? Airline is not askig you to PAY the training, they just bond you to make sure they will not loose money if you suddenly decide to leave.

[CargoOne]

No my friend it is not fair. In fact since the beginning of aviation companies everysingle expense in training has been paid by the company

Yes that were the days when only BA and PanAm been operating between London and New York and both were happy to offer you a discounted economy roundtrip ticket for $6000 (adjusted for inflation to 2016 dollars). Unless you have a time machine better start getting used to nowadays reality.

[Jumbo2]

It is very fair indeed. You always forget to count how much company has spent on screening, sim assessment, convertion course - groung and sim, crm/wet/fire/first aid etc and finally on the line training. If you put that all together 7,5k sounds very reasonable to make sure people don't jump in a few weeks. All airlines hr/flt ops depts full of stories when pilots have left just after the line training completetion just because there was a couple of hundred quid better offer pop up around the corner.
CargoOne, I do see your point with regards to the cost to the company. However if a company is that worried that people will leave straight after line training, or within a few months; Either their selection process has failed or more likely people don't like the way they have been treated. A famous quote says "Train people well enough so they can leave, treat them well enough so they don't".
Airlines resorting into using excessive bonds (and £7.5k for rated pilots personally seems rather high) could raise the question why, after joining, FO's were keen to leave the company so quickly (and have to redo a selection and OCC for the next operator).

[tubby linton]

My quote was from the following website.
Making Training Costs Tax Deductible Solicitors: Nottingham, Leicester and Derby UK (http://www.nelsonslaw.co.uk/site/library/commercialclient/tax/making_training_costs_tax_deductible.html)

[JPJP]

Yes that were the days when only BA and PanAm been operating between London and New York and both were happy to offer you a discounted economy roundtrip ticket for $6000 (adjusted for inflation to 2016 dollars). Unless you have a time machine better start getting used to nowadays reality.
Respectfully, that's absolute twaddle. The airline makes you pay for your training/bond because they can. They can, because 'you' are willing to pay.

Do any of the four largest airlines, or low cost carriers in the U.S. require a pilot to pay a bond, or pay for their training ? No. They pay for your training, pay you whilst training and pay for your accommodation during training.

Stockholm syndrome.

[whitemonk]

Just to clear something up because going by some comments there seems to be a bit of confusion regarding the bonding process...

The 7.5k bond is for rated guys, disappears after 12 months i believe but I am not certain on that as I joined non rated. This is simply to stop guys joining and then leaving immediately which I feel is fair enough, if you stay for the period in question you don't ever worry about it and it hasn't seemed to put off any of the many ex RYR guys here now.

For non-rated, (on the 75 anyway), it is a 19.5k bond over three years, that reduces pro rata from one year post Final Line check, in effect reduces by nothing for the first 12 months, then disappears over the next 24 months.

So if your rated or non rated if you join the airline pays for the training, it only becomes an issue if you suddenly decide to leave.

You will only suddenly decide (disclaimer!!!! in my opinion!) to leave if you come here as a low houred guy who suddenly realises you will only be flying 500hrs a year at best and that is not what you want, or if you don't like free time....

Hope that clears things up, best get back to my winter off! ;)

[stockportonealpha]

Alas there are also plenty of people who have chosen to leave Jet2 who have significant flying experience. This is due to the poor terms and conditions, and the stubborn, backward and tightfisted nature of the establishment there. My experience was that it was not a pleasant place to work, in direct comparison to other airlines. Their inability to listen or look after the workforce being the main issue. And the endemic hatred of all professional bodies including BALPA, for no apparent reason! It does not cost anything to simply LISTEN!?

The command process is peculiar. I witnessed a few command simulator sessions as an 'ill-equipped' stand in FO on numerous occasions and felt utter compassion for those being assessed in the left seat. I was specifically briefed to not offer any opinion and not to work together with the command candidate. Madness in my humble opinion. CRM was poor at Jet2 anyway, and this type of assessment went no way to improve it. And truly embarrassing and awkward to watch one of your own colleagues struggle and get caught in a purposeful trap, when working together would have solved the problem in the way it is meant to be solved in a multicrew aircraft.

So CRM in the flightdeck and ability to work together as a true crew could not be assessed for the command candidate. They were overloaded and made to work as single crew for their check. A real military mentality that was completely out of place in the safe world of the MULTIcrew airline. It was a truely backward process that made me feel somewhat shocked to be a part of. Especially when I was able to compare it to a really sensible command process that I encountered at a previous airline.

I still maintain that First Officer training and task management between Captains and FOs is poor at Jet2. There is little or no encouragement for FOs to run a sector, be it in the sim or on the line which is a huge shame and impacts of development.

The training was adequate but below par compared to my previous company.

And before you move please contemplate the following:
No rostering or scheduling agreement
Roster instability. A secret policy to make changes to your roster without informing you until a few days before hand. They still will not tell pilots or cabin crew that they are going to be called out for an early standby duty the night before by publishing it on the crew roster system... Stating EASA regs and maintaining flexibility! Thank goodness none of the other UK airlines have adopted this pathetic policy, and we can be prepared for standby call out the night before.
No healthcare provision. It is NHS waiting lists for you while you are grounded
No staff travel
No crew food (might seem daft but what happens when you are called to fly to TFS towards the end of an airport standby duty and you need three more meals with you). No company credit card here my friends to nip into the terminal with as would be absolutely normal at other airlines).
No disruption pay, no flexible working pay, no thank you.
Poor pension (different company contribution percentage for FO/SFO and Capt for no apparent reason, other than FOs are treated badly!)
No professional body representation (no recognition of an organisation actively supporting your industry and safety across it!)
They do not even pay for your rating on your licence!
It is a poor package for a firm that made £100 million profit, even if you only fly 600hrs a year!
Anything else lacking that I have missed!?

It is truely one of the most unhappy environments I have ever worked in, where staff morale is low. Cabin crew are treated poorly too. Some are being changed from senior to junior constantly to save a few bobb, winter coats not provided with some crew told to buy their own, temp contracts galore, and they even loose around £100 of their wage (a monthly bonus!) for calling in sick. If the trolleys are down on stock, then wages are docked! Despicable practice that is not normal, but there is no one for them them to turn to collectively to view their issues. Cabin tidy payments!? What cabin tidy payments!

The firm I now work for is similar to one I worked for before Jet2! It is not perfect but in contrast provides a lovely place to work, real benefits, a flexible and understanding crewing department, professional body recognition, staff travel galore with free concessions, decent loss of licence that you do not have to add to, great profit share scheme, share save scheme, and the newbies were welcomed on day one with open arms!! Feedback is absolutely encouraged and cabin crew / pilot interaction is spot on! CRM is normal, FOs are encouraged to develop! Such a lovely change of scenery to Jet2 and a true 'professional' airline environment within which to work again and re-establish a career. Command might be a little further away but it is a joy to work here doing the same job as at Jet2 but feeling more appreciated, looked after and treated properly as a professional, and given the opportunity to develop skills!

I would encourage anyone approaching command at Jet2 to think about moving on and see what a proper airline has to offer! It could do wonders for your morale and for your career! Green grass!

[H44]

I was a captain at Jet2 and left for many of the reasons you mention. I'm now an FO at another airline, I'm still based at home, still have quiet winters (not sure why Jet2ers think they're the only British airline to have quiet winters!) and while the FO pay is down compared to a Jet2 captains, all the other benefits mentioned in the above post, particularly the rostering agreement more than make up for it. I think the regional bases at Jet2 have it better - I was at one of the bigger bases I was doing 650 hours a year with endless airport standbys over the winter despite there being very few flights operating some days!

[Mr Good Cat]

Wow, that's really both interesting and intriguing - as I've been here only a year and have the absolute polar opposite experience to what you have stated.

I joined as a DEC having worked previously for two of the world's biggest airlines and have nothing but positive experiences of the training, management and my colleagues. The flight deck gradient is exactly right, the first officers in general are very knowledgeable and extremely supportive, the cabin crew are happy and friendly, and the few members of management that I have met are open to ideas and friendly to deal with. This is all based on my experiences in the last 12 months since I joined. I have heard however that a while back things were not as they are now.

Just out of interest, where did you guys work previously? The terms and conditions here are pretty good compared to the intensity and difficulty of the work, and almost as good as the airlines flying twice as much at nasty times of day. At this present time it's the best job I've had... hope it stays this way...
🙏

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

Stockport one

I don't recognise the place you describe as the place that I work????

It's not a bed of roses, so don't start with any of that BS, but really.....

Poor T's & C's - well they are improving slowly but surely, Rome wasn't built in a day.

Poor Flight Deck CRM - care to elaborate?? I'm lost with this one.

No encouragement for FO to run their sector - again, I really don't know where you get this from? FO's run their sector from start to finish within the boundaries of SOP's.

No staff travel - yes there is (I know it rarely works, but there is a staff travel system)

No crew food - thank HMRC for that. We had a choice years ago, before you joined, and we decided to ditch it in favour of retaining our tax free duty allowance.

Some of the points you make are valid, but much of what you say just isn't true, or has been sensationalised to say the least.

[Trossie]

Having quickly scanned through the last 10 pages of proficiency check results (there are 50 prof checks per page) I counted 3 fails. There is NO chopping mentality despite what some people think, we are there to help you as necessary to reach the standards should you not manage to do so at the first attempt, unfortunately there will always be some who, despite the guidance, still don't meet the required standard. Comprehensive retraining is provided to those candidates in order that they can then demonstrate the required standard.Interesting comments. Surely in any organisation that would be seen as 'company confidential'? I wonder what managers in his/her organisation might think of that?

A famous quote says "Train people well enough so they can leave, treat them well enough so they don't". I like that one!

[16024]

I don't see any breach of confidentiality there, and I'd assume the managers would be proud of the statistic.

[Ivan aromer]

Stockportonealpha.
I have to agree, with the majority of your points!
It seemed to me that you either became a yes man and progressed, or just kept your head down. Ok for a Captain but difficult for an FO coming up to command.
Clearly you were not one of the inner sanctum!

[samca]

How difficult could be for a experienced Spanish FO to get the upgrade? It could be the language a barrier? I mean most of the pilots in Jet2 are from UK right... so my fear is to leave RYR with the Command Upgrade course at the end of the year and to go JET2 and have lot of problems to get the upgrade there.

But in the other hand what I want is to stop flying 4 sectors days, do not go to a non popular base after the Upgrade for 1 or 2 years and to earn 1000 Euros more than now as FO.

So I'm thinking if Jet2 gives me Alicante or even Mallorca permanent. An opportunity after 1 year or so for my Command and leave me fix in Spain... I would see my life and my future better.

About the salary as Captain in Jet2 it is higher than Captain in Ryanair contract (5500-6500 Euros net). As FO salary is more or less the same I think.

In resume I want to continue living in Spain even after the upgrade. Do not fly 4 sectors days. To be motivated with a good salary as Captain and to have a chance of going for the course within one or 2 years.

Do you recommend me to leave RYR now and go for JET2 ?

[DTYSAPCO]

A few years ago, If your ex-Tornado RAF, your in. If you've been there a while it depends if your face fits. I believe it is changing slowly for the better.

[3Greens]

Blaming HMRC for no crew food?. That sounds like you've been fed a line of total nonsense from your managers. Food isn't taxed as a BIK. I understand the bit about your subsistence allowance, but at BA we get crew food AND allowances that have a tax free element. Sounds like you could do with a union.

[3Greens]

3 fails for LPC's per 500 is still rather high. I haven't failed anyone outright for an LPC in 10years! Plenty of repeated and retested items, but an outright fail is very very rare in my company.