Creamed Off at BFTS?

[Dominator2]

Is it true that the RAF is now "Creaming Off" directly from the completion of BFTS for those when qualified to immediately instruct at BFTS? I knew that the RAF was desperately short of QFIs, however?

[Background Noise]

Don't know if it is happening now, but it has happened before, and that was when there was still a separate AFT on the Hawk.

You have to realise that there is no 'BFTS' now, as you or I knew it, and that the Tucano course (BFJT) is more advanced the BFT ever was. It's not quite as advanced as AFT was, and not on a jet (if that matters), but it has happened previously, and it did work.

[charliegolf]

Wasn't it always part of the system? Well, 70s onward anyway?

CG

[wiggy]

As I recall it from late 70's though to the late 80's (as a student and a few years later as a non-creamie QFI at a BFTS and then CFS) I don't think remember anyone being sent to CFS directly out of BFTS, certainly all those I know of/worked with/taught were creamed off after AFTS ( Valley).

[Bob Viking]

I believe they were known as 'Skimmies' and there were only a small number. Probably end of the 90's or very early 2000's.

BV

[Dominator2]

BV,

Since you are up with what if happening today in the RAF, are pilots being creamed/skimmed off from BFJT and if so what are your thoughts? Although personally never a fan of Creamies I understood the rational. I do, however, question the logic (apart from short term panic) in any pilot instructing prior to completing his/her own training?

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

I believe they were known as 'Skimmies' and there were only a small number. Probably end of the 90's or very early 2000's


There were definitely two on the staff at 1 FTS in 98-99 when I went through - I believe that they were the first, and I haven't heard of more since, but I defer to anyone with greater depth of knowledge.

[Fareastdriver]

Would it be much the same as Assistant Instructors at a civilian flying school? Do the routine nitty gritty continuation training but not allowed to send off first solo or do nominated tests.

[Wander00]

My QFI at the Towers in the 60s was a creamed-off QFI. Good guy to fly with and taught me a lot. Also first time I drove car at 100mph was in his TR2 on the Leadenham Straight.

[Bob Viking]

Dominator.

I will never profess to be an expert in anything outside my (limited) sphere of influence so I can't say what is happening at BFJT. All I can say is we currently have Creamies on the Hawk T2. They have completed all of their Hawk training (Creamies were previously taken at the end of AFT rather than TW) and so are well placed to help their peer group through the course.

Nobody is ever a fan of creamies (harsh but predictable banter) but they definitely serve a purpose at the moment. Pre OCU holds and a shortage of Hawk QFIs makes for some easy maths.

BV

[Danny42C]

I don't think the RAF ever had a dedicated cadre of permanent Instructors (except during the early part of the war, when we wanted large numbers of operational pilots quickly). Then they roped in all manner of too old for RAF service civilian instructors for full time duty (cf the poem "The Flying Instructor's Lament", which is on here somewhere).

But the general principle seems to have been that each generation of pilots had to teach the next. On the Arnold Scheme in the US, we sent over 7,000 + LACs ex ITW, got 4,000 + pilots back, and they kept 500 + "Creamies". Selection was at "Wings" stage. They were told that their function was to replace the American civilian Instructors who started up the six "British Flying Training Schools" which were opened (under RAF Command) in summer 1941 in parallel with the US Army Air Corps Arnold Schools.

Nevertheless, there was at least one RAF "creamie" (P/O MacMillan) at my Arnold Advanced School. The US Army used the same system: in their own Basic and Advanced Schools, all Instructors were "creamies" - and loud were the lamentations after Pearl Harbor when they saw their erstwhile schoolmates going off to fame, fortune, glory and promotion in the "Mighty 8th" while they were held back until they'd done 12 (?) month's Instructing.

Danny42C.

[andrewn]

When you think about it being head of 22Gp, or whatever "Training Command" is now called, must be a nightmare.


You spend 5 or so years planning for a 6 Sqn FJ force, Sentinel retirement, Herc retirement, etc and then WHAM everything gets thrown back up in the air. And on top of all that you are having to lock yourself into what I assume is a relatively inflexible long term contract in the form of Ascent/MFTS.


Not sure who is calling the shots but I don't envy them!

[rotorfossil]

I was a creamie end of '59 and not a volunteer. Been an instructor/ examiner fixed/ rotary ever since. I think it was a good thing for the individual as it certainly straightened up your flying, but not convinced it was good for the students, at least not at the start of the instructing period.

[Fixed Cross]

The RAF has been posting first tour instructors directly back into the training units for most of its existence. As far as I am aware all such individuals completed basic and advanced training before being posted to CFS for QFI training. This applied to both the fast jet and multi training streams.

In 1964 I was posted to CFS on completing multi AFTS at Oakington as a so called creamed off (scummed off to the majority) NCO pilot. This involved a quick return to IOT at South Cerney for a (5 day) commissioning before CFS, as the system was averse to first tour NCO pilots teaching officer students.

By coincidence, after graduating as a brand new scummed off JP B2 QFI, I was posted back to Syerston on the same Flight from which I had been trained only 14 months previously. Many of my earlier instructors were still in residence!

[Pontius Navigator]

I have dim memories of a creamie on the F4 OCU around 1969. I think he had been creamed off and done a tour at Valley before posting to Coningsby on the OCU. As I say, just a dim memory.

[Easy Street]

As a student I felt I got better instruction from creamies at BFTS than AFTS. I think this was because the BFTS creamies had some context in which to give their instruction: they knew what skills were required to pass the next course. One exercise that particularly sticks in the mind from Valley was the max possible rate turn: creamies tended to be nibby about precise speeds and attitudes, whereas ex-front line guys tolerated a bit more inaccuracy and encouraged you to get your head out into the turn because you were supposed to be developing the skills required for air combat. Presumably "skimmies" had similar weaknesses at BFTS, having never experienced the next step.

I guess you could argue that the ex-ME and RW instructors at Linton never experienced Valley either. In my experience, though, most of them seemed to have been chopped at Valley in their own student days, and they were generally exceptionally pernickety when it came to teaching the skills on which they had themselves struggled, with good insights into potential areas for error. Which actually made their instruction highly valuable!

[binbrook]

One of those creamed off from 7FTS at Church Fenton in the 60s came back there as a JP QFI and ended his instructing tour - successfully - in Standards. However unpalatable to budding hot-shots the system did work.

[MACH2NUMBER]

I was a lucky escapee of the creamy system. After completing AFTS at Valley, my boss asked if I would like to return as a creamy instructor. As I had really enjoyed the Gnat and there were assurances of tour of choice later, I acceded. My instructor heard this with horror and said what would happen was that the posting conference would say they did not like the idea of first tourists instructors on the Gnat and I would be sent to JPs.I was mortified.
Luckily, my boss interceded successfully and I was posted to the Lightning instead. A long love with fighters ensued. Thanks Boss.

[tmmorris]

When you think about it being head of 22Gp, or whatever "Training Command" is now called, must be a nightmare.

...and then you have the whole air cadet gliding fiasco to sort out...

[Just This Once...]

When you think about it being head of 22Gp, or whatever "Training Command" is now called, must be a nightmare.


You spend 5 or so years planning for a 6 Sqn FJ force, Sentinel retirement, Herc retirement, etc and then WHAM everything gets thrown back up in the air. And on top of all that you are having to lock yourself into what I assume is a relatively inflexible long term contract in the form of Ascent/MFTS.


Not sure who is calling the shots but I don't envy them!
You could add the P-8 to that list plus the Nav issue when you presume that you can harvest them from the GR force before it decides to keep them for a bit longer. This in-turn brings the Nav / rear-crew problem for P-8, R-J, Sentinel, Sentry, Reaper, Shadow and Protector into a rather stark focus.

[sharpend]

Interesting! When I went through Valley (on the Gnat) I was rubbish and it was considered that i would never be good enough to instruct. In those days, one was good enough to be a creamy or good enough to one day be a QFI or never good enough :). Many years later, as an A cat QFI in Standards at an FTS I met the instructor who said I would never be good enough to be an instructor. I reminded him of that as I did his refresher course. The moral of all that is 'Never say never'.

[RetiredBA/BY]

Couldn't agree more.

When the wings fell off the Valiant, I was asked by a S/L what I would like for my next posting. CFS said I whereupon he fell about laughing, saying I would NEVER be a QFI , no ability, wrong personality etc. etc.

Fast forward 5 years and he is on a jet refresher, meets me in a corridor, asking where the standards office was, he was about to do his FHT with them.

To his shock, I took him into my office to brief him on his sortie. Lots if spinning and a very analytical debrief, but to his credit he saw the irony !

And there's more. One senior officer who obviously didn't think much of me, went his way and I went mine. We met again, some years later, when he was my first officer !

Never , ever, say , never , well hardly ever.

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

And remember - Be very careful to treat people correctly on your way up in the world. You may meet them again on your way down!


Aaron.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

When you think about it being head of 22Gp, or whatever "Training Command" is now called, must be a nightmare.


Especially when he did so much as Stn Cdr to look after his people, so that they would really want to stay in and the exodus from the force would reduce.

[Easy Street]

One other thing I should have said about the "creamie" system in general is that those who are not "creamed" reach the end of their first front-line tours with at least some scope to decide whether they would like to pursue the "QWI" route, the "QFI" route, or exchange/cross-over to another type. Bright young things hoping to join the career ladder would probably choose one of the first two options, look to end their second tour "above average", and off they go.

Those who were creamed have fewer options. They cannot realistically pursue the QWI route without delaying promotion, and depending on how they performed on their front-line tour, they can easily get pigeonholed into the "training" rather than "tactical" supervisory roles should they stay on a front-line type. There is nothing wrong with that, of course, but at the moment of creaming the FTS graduate cannot be expected to know enough about life at the front-line to know how he/she would like their later career to develop. Creaming all but takes those decisions out of their hands.

[Bob Viking]

ES

To be fair to the Creamie filth they seem to do just fine out of it IMHO. Well placed for exchanges with a Q tick and Above Average far earlier than most (provided they get an A2 - which they normally do).

I do believe, however, that anyone volunteering to be a Creamie should be examined by a Doctor and kicked in the bits (as a minimum).

BV

[teeteringhead]

Wasn't Jock Stirrup a creamie? Didn't seem to do him any harm career-wise..........

[BEagle]

sharpend wrote: Interesting! When I went through Valley (on the Gnat) I was rubbish and it was considered that I would never be good enough to instruct. In those days, one was good enough to be a creamy or good enough to one day be a QFI or never good enough :) . Many years later, as an A cat QFI in Standards at an FTS I met the instructor who said I would never be good enough to be an instructor. I reminded him of that as I did his refresher course. The moral of all that is 'Never say never'.

Well, bluntie old chum, that's why you were such a good TWU instructor at Heaven-in-Devon! You knew how people could struggle at FJ training and would do what you could to help.

36 years ago, my fondest memory of flying at Chiv (apart from bombing and strafing) was that LL tactical formation with you wazzing about over West Devon...:ok:

When's the book coming out...??

I was once told that one couldn't oneself to be a 'real' QFI unless you were A2/MG/IRE. How many of those are still around these days...:(

[Flap62]

The whole creamie system seemed to work reasonably well in my day. There were the sharp individuals who were creamed off and then went on to do very well in their front line career. There were the slightly more "protected" individuals who had the ability but a creamie tour allowed them the space to mature and they subsequently flourished and there were those of us who were told we would never amount to more than a training risk who somehow managed to end up in something fast and pointy anyway! The only downside that I could see was that the inevitable stain of a CFS Qual never quite left them and so they were never truly (a few exceptions apart) capable on the front line with a proper QWI qual.

[bunta130]

Fg Off Steve Hillier was my creamie QFI primary.....

Not only a talented pilot and instructor, but seems to have done quite well since...!

[Hamish 123]

A friend of mine from 7 FTS became a Hawk creamie, promised choice of types once he'd completed his Valley tour. His preference was Harriers, but sent to Tornado GRs instead, as apparently the Harrier force was sucking up too many "above average" types, and there needed to be a better distribution across the FJ world. Not too happy, but went on to have a very successful career, including GW1.

[wiggy]

o be fair to the Creamie filth they seem to do just fine out of it IMHO. Well placed for exchanges with a Q tick and Above Average far earlier than most

Having taught a few to be QFI's back in the day I'd agree, good hands, all of them, the only grumble I had with some is they had trouble empathising with your average/low average Bloggs.....( TBF same could be said of some of the high/above average non creamies as well)....

[MACH2NUMBER]

Good points made all round, I escaped the creamy bit, and got the QWI qual instead. Duly had a nice instructional tour on F15, as a Pilot Instructor, without having to do any of the CFS stuff. Teaching pilots to fly the jet was very much easier than teaching them to operate it.
Dear Ken Hair visited me and was very distressed to find I was teaching ab-initios on the F15 without being a QFI!!

[Easy Street]

BV and others,

My point wasn't that creamies can't do well in their later careers; obviously many have. It was that they have fewer choices at the end of their front-line tour, probable loss of the QWI option being the most obvious. That doesn't stop them having good careers, but it does run counter to what I would consider a good personnel management principle of allowing the strongest performers to have the greatest scope to shape their futures.