Girls on PPRuNe? (only)

[sally at pprune]

Look guys, the title was explicit, and you are not welcome here. Sorry, I don’t wish to be rude, but if you are male, or cannot make up your mind, please click here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=57481&perpage=15&pagenumber=1).

OK, that’s got rid of them. Believe it or not, this is a serious topic. I’m intending to start training this autumn, and I’ve done the usual trawl of flight schools, asked my questions here and searched the PPRuNe database. I am struck by one thing. There seem to be quite a few girls at the schools I’ve visited, but I find it hard to spot many here. If you are female (please guys, if you are still peeking, go away and talk about football), do you find that you are treated equally? Do your instructors try it on? Is it really a male dominated world, or has it grown up? Do you have to be a tomboy to fit in? Please e-mail me with your experiences if you don’t want to post publicly. I’d really appreciate your views.

Thanks :)

[tonyblair]

Why do I get the feeling I've just fallen for a wind-up? Comon Sal, most of your posts have been sensible. this is either a wind-up or sexist. I mean, what would you say if I put a post here saying no girls?

OK flame away, I asked for it ladies. :cool:

[Flying Spaniard]

Oh come on...how childish!
jeez can't believe it

[distaff_beancounter]

Sally is this a wind-up?

If not, all I can say is that if you are doubtful about training & working with men, then perhaps you should consider another career.

Life is what you make it. Governments can't legislate to eleminate everyone's PERCEIVED descrimination.

Yes there are plenty of female PPRuNers, but it not always obvious from their tags.

Basically, nowadays in aviation, this situation is as follows:-

If women can pass the same exams & flight tests as the fellas, then they get to play with the Big Boys' Toys, on more or less equal terms.

There is an arguement the other way. Some airlines are so keen to show that they are now Equal Opportunity Employees, that they are accused of discriminating TOWARDS women in their recruitment.

Distaff Beancounter (definitely female, last time I looked :D )

[The Greaser]

Sally

I'd ignore these people, the questions you are posing seem like sensible things to want to know. If I was about to spend 60 grand entering a female dominated industry then I would want to know too. Unfortunately as a male I probably can't answer the questions very well.


Good Luck

[Token Bird]

Dear Sal,

If it was a serious post then here goes:

I just finished a full-time groundschool course. I have never experienced sexism from instructors, lecturers, people who are already pilots. However, I have experienced a bit from some of my fellow students. Despite the fact that they are not yet qualified pilots, they seem to think they are special merely because they are training to be pilots and they did make it clear that they thought women had no right to be in the cockpit (except to bring in the tea, presumably). I found it quite ironic that I got this kind of attitude from men in their 20's but haven't seen it in the older generation - I would have expected it to be the other way round.

Strangely enough this was the first time I have ever experienced sexism in my life, despite having previously worked in a very male-dominated job (computer programming), having been to University etc.., so it came as quite a shock to suddenly encounter it in a JAR class.

What I did notice was that the sexism came from those people in the class that were achieving the worst results and were the shirkers of the class. The hardworkers of the class did not treat me that way. I find this quite telling. I think a lot of blokes, particularly young ones who still see women as just bodies, just can't take being beaten by a woman. They use to love to imagine that I was a horrendous pilot because I was good academically, and were convinced that their own 'superior flying skills' would make up for the fact that they couldn't pass any assessments. Apparently it didn't occur to them that if they didn't pass the exams they would never get a chance to demonstrate their 'superior flying skills'.

Anyway, I've ranted a bit too long here. Suffice it to say that I doubt you'll have trouble with real pilots, but may get a bit of grief from the students. Presumably the process of getting a licence and finding a job will make them grow up a bit,

TB

[redsnail]

Yeah I am a female. Bit of a tomboy too. I am not going to change that either. I have too much fun.
As has been said before the genuine pilots won't care about your gender. However, they will care if you make a thing of it. Employers want pilots, not "female" pilots or "male" pilots.
I have seen one female seriously damage her credibility by flaunting the feminist card.
I have had some grief from students and passengers. Fortunately my bosses has backed me up. Also, the FA's have told me that some pax's expressions are priceless when they realise that the female's voice over the PA isn't the FA's but the pilot's. (Grrr I hate appostrophes)
The vast majority of pax and fellow workers have been great.
The ones that have given me grief I just put it down to pure jealousy. (I have another theory but Scroggsy will ban me)

If you think flying is bad, wait till you ride a motorbike. :D

[pipergirl]

i think sally's question is not so unreasonable...she's not being childish or sexist, but it could have been more tactfully asked.
i agree with token...she pretty much hits the nail on the head..
i work for an airline and interact with flight deck on a daily basis. everyone knows i want to fly and are fantastic. They offer advice, books and are willing to sit down and explain anything you are stuck on etc...absolutely fantastic...
when i went to start my flight training i had a bad experience with an instructor, but i put it down to the fact that he is an @sshole as opposed to being sexist. But then again, another female student of his at the school thought otherwise. There was a guy at the school at the same time who definitely didn't like the idea of women flying, but (and this reflects token's point), he was sent home with his bags packing as he was struggling with the course.
That's my only experience. But bear in mind that in an industry with the male/female ratio as it is, there probably is the odd handful of idiots. Thankfully i have never experienced any problem and i hope i never will..

[G-LOST]

As a male, I admit to having witnessed with pure anger an incompetent female pilot get job after job over more worthy candidates (both male and female), because she was prepared to flaunt herself and sleep her way to the top. However, the real villains here were the recruiters / chief pilots who took the bait, and you could argue that the woman in question was simply being ruthless about the way she went about getting ahead in her career. The key here is not to get that kind of reputation, deserved or not.

On a much more positive note, as an instructor I am convinced that female students learn more quickly. Of course, this is a generalisation and there are not enough women coming through the door to make such an assertion in any way scientific. Nevertheless, the women I have taught have come prepared, listened carefully, applied themselves to the task and achieved goals more rapidly.

Good luck to you.

[Foyl]

The only time I encountered any sort of sexist comment it was a fellow student who was an @sshole anyway.

But there's nothing that raises my flag more than a female pilot who trades on her sex as a means of advancement. It gives everyone the wrong idea about how you got where you are, and there's nothing more frustrating if you got where you are by working hard and actually making the grade.

[Whirlybird]

Sally, good question. I'm female, I have a PPL(A) and CPL(H), and have encountered A LOT of...hmmm...not sure if prejudice is the right word, but treatment that keeps making it obvious to me just what a male orientated environment aviation is. As other posters have said, it's rare in commercial aviation. So where have I found it? Instructors who obviously didn't take me seriously, people generally who assume my male passenger is the pilot, competitors in last year's Dawn to Dusk competition (which I won with another woman pilot) who asked one of the judges if he'd just given it to us because we were female! Plus people on PPRuNe who think women pilots are OK, but that this is an issue that shouldn't be raised - if you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen sort of attitude. Well, I can take anything, but I don't have to like it, pretend it isn't happening, or be anything I'm not to please other people. And neither do you. Almost all the women I know speak of prejudice in aviation, so yes, it happens. Kind of bizarre when women hae been flying since 1910, but there you are. I loved it in the US, because it doesn't seem to be the case there - a lot motre people fly, and women flying is no big deal; no-one even notices. So that's the situation. But hey, the aircraft doesn't care what gender you are, and up there you're on your own, YOU make the decisions. That's what's important, and that's one of the reasons why I fly. Go for it, don't listen to the idiots, and good luck!

[tonyblair]

OK Sally, I'm sorry, it was a serious question and you've got serious answers from the girls you wanted to answer. I guess as a guy I don't understand what it is like (I've never worked as a childminder :)) and I should have heeded the warning to stay away. :rolleyes:

[buttline]

Whirly - I'm curious - is the helicopter side more or less 'suprised / resentful etc' than the fw side or the same?

[Whirlybird]

buttline,

Certainly more surprised. Anyone would think a woman had never flown a helicopter before, the way people react. A woman I know who's a first officer on the North Sea has given up telling people at parties etc what she does; she says the reactions are quite weird. "Do you like it?" is apparently a common one, but mainly they are odder than that. She now says she has a part time job at the airport, agrees it's a cop out, but says it makes life easier.

But since I got my CPL I have far less problem being taken seriously :)

[djk]

I have to say I totally agree with Whirlybird on this. who cares what gender you are. so long as you can pilot the plane safetly that's all that matters. Admittedly this tends to be a male dominated industry, but more and more women are signing up and things are slowly changing.

I also agree with G-LOST, on his point, but then again I think I would be angry if that happened in any industry.

[miss magenta]

Hi Sally
First of all, good luck with your training. It´s hard work but fun at the same time.
As for your questions, well I agree with Whirlybird. There are ocasions when you will get anti- female coments but, I think just as many as you would in other walks of life. What annoys me most is people being patronizing because you are female. Going over the top to show how un-prejudiced they are. This is harder to deal with than outright prejudice.
On the whole I have found most men quite unconcerned as to gender of there students/ classmates. And suprisingly, as someone already said, the older the person the more unconcerned.
Whatever you encouter, dont let it affect you and keep going. It´s worth it. :)

[Whirlybird]

A couple of things come to mind. Firstly, the difference between apparently sexist banter, and real prejudice. When I was at Bristol Ground School, one of the instructors enjoyed trying to wind me up: "...just like the piston engine in a Peugeot 306, but I don't expect you've ever looked under the bonnet have you?" I replied: "Of course not, why should I; I pay someone else to do that kind of stuff". By the end of the week we had everyone laughing. But if I had any questions, or real problems, or things I actually had difficulty with, he was great, and underneath the banter actually treated women as equals. Very different from the type of person who claims to be whiter than white PC, but usually has deep-rooted beliefs that women are inferior; they're the type who usually tell me how absolutely wonderful I am...for doing the same thing a bunch of men are doing. As someone else said, being patronised is the hardest thing to take. It can make me turn nasty at times - usually very sarcastic. People don't like you rocking the boat, but I won't put up with real bull**** just because I'm expected to and the guys find it embarrassing if I don't. But that's me, you're you, play it your own way.

Secondly, to all the women here, if you're in this country, join the BWPA (British Women Pilots Association). DO NOT believe the comments you may hear along the lines of "women meeting for coffee" or "bunch of dykes who all look like the back end of a bus". Actually they have 400 members from PPLs (and students) to professional pilots covering the full range of occupations. They have sponsorships (a little free money!!!), meetings, competitions, fly-ins etc. But for me the most useful thing is to be part of a lose knit network of pilots where I don't stand out and no-one thinks I'm odd or different or absolutely wonderful or any of the things we've discussed here. Website is something obvious, www.bwpa.co.uk I think, or e-mail me and I'll look up the details.

[Mighty_Wings]

I'm a male Student Pilot, and at my flying school we have one or two female students and there treated exactly the same as the males... Look at it this way they are Student Pilots weither there male or female shouldnt be a issue.

One thing which remembered while reading this post was something which was mentioned in PPRUNE a while back...

Your a FO of a airline and are on a night stop you go to the local pub with the flight crew and are chatting away having a few pints waiting for the captain. The captain arrves sometime later wearing make-up and a skirt what do you say ?

[distaff_beancounter]

Mighty Wings

"When the captain arrives wearing make-up & a skirt"

..... presumably it would be less embarrassing for you to have greet her

..... rather than to have to greet HIM :D

[BEagle]

Either - "Look, Nigel, if you must dress up in women's clothes, at least shave your b£oody legs"

Or, more likely, "Hi Susan, just in time - it's your shout!"

[distaff_beancounter]

Well worth joining, if only to watch the fellas' expressions, such as on last months fly in to Le Touquet, when the petite Angie Soper climbed out of her large & imposing Yak 11. :)

The website is http://www.bwpa.demon.co.uk

And, before any fellas complain, men are perfectly welcome at BWPA events :)

[AerBabe]

During the short time that I've been flying I have met a whole range of attitudes. The flying group where I learned to fly have generally been fantastic though. When I first walked in to chat about learning there were no raised eyebrows, no whispered comments, and no smirks... despite the fact that everyone in the room was over 40 and male (now who's stereotyping? ;) )

My instructor has been great. He's very pro-women in the cockpit. He says, and believes it, that women make much better pilots because we don't have the testosterone problem :D

There is one person in the group who literally ignored me right from the start though. He's fairly old, and with it very old-fashioned. Believes that everyone coming to the clubhouse should be wearing shirt and tie etc etc. He won't look at me, won't talk to me, and won't even acknowledge my presence. It is frustrating, but I've learned to deal with it. I've also had the guys lining up on the apron watching me as I taxi off solo, and the same as Whirly - those people who assume my male passenger is the pilot. Oh, and the occasional patronising one who says "oh, you are doing well" etc etc.

On the whole I've received a great deal of support, both from fellow pilots (male and female), and from colleagues, friends, and family.

Finally, it's interesting to notice that most of the men who have replied to this thread have assumed it's a wind-up. Says it all doesn't it! :D

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I have flown with female Skipper, all female cabin crew and a female Engineer. On the same flight we were despatched by a female on both sectors and our approach into Stansted was directed by a female controller who handed me over to a female tower for landing clearance, and a female told us where to park.

So if you are sexist; flying really is not the career for you.

Personally I love been surrounded by women in uniform all day..

WWW

[vanman]

I've always found women make excellent pilots...........

.....perfect environment for them too.......

......someone else does the reversing. :D

[pilotwolf]

I recall a flight - think it was JEA to Jersey, a good few years ago but the Captain made the usual welcome aboard pa call and added "...you may be interested to know that this is the first time we have operated an all female crew, captain,FO and all FAs".

The remarks and rumblings from around the cabin from other pax male and female was unbelieveable!

..parking, reversing, mirrors and makeup etc.... :p

But I would say that at least 30% of the voices heard on the LGW frequencies are female and thats not including ATC.

[Pandora]

Have had only 5 sexist comments in7 years of flying various stuff;
1. "Oh good - a girl, you'll have brought the tea with you." While setting up my paraglider on Pendle Hill.
2. "No one will give you an easy time, dear, just cause your a girl." My MCC trainer (see thread on CRM forum).
3. "You only got a '1' in your test cause you've got t!ts" Fellow student.
4 and 5. "Women pilots, whatever next." Pax.

I think it says a lot about the attitude of the people around me in aviation that I can remember each of these occasions as well as I do. There is very rarely any negativity about women pilots but you do have to learn to take banter. However I think in most workplaces regardless of the job being done there is always banter of some sort. Life would be boring without it. In the last 2 days at work I have been called 'Love' by another pilot, 'Ma'am' by an engineer, 'Skipper' by a push-back eng (he can't see I'm not a captain on the ather end of the interphone), the wrong name (repeatedly) by the captain, the list goes on. I also get told rude jokes, usually with whoever is telling me it first saying "I don't normally tell girls this one, but your a pilot so its alright". Female cabin crew are usually pleased to see a bit of 'girl power' and last week after the captain did a particularly nice landing the cabin crew were all convinced I must have landed the a/c because "women pilots always do lovely landings". Quite often in the flight deck you find you don't have too much in common with the captain but that is usually not cause you are a girl and he is a bloke, but more commonly because he is the same age as your dad, and he has children your age.

All in all, I don't think there is any more sexism in aviation than in any other career. It is male dominated at the moment, but believe it or not that is still a knock on effect of WW2, before then a third of all pilots were women, and many of them were outstanding pioneers and record breakers. Aviation is one of those careers where provided you can get the job done it doesn't really matter who you are, because it is a long hard slog to get there and amongst professionals it is acknowledged that you wouldn't hold the licence if you couldn't fly the aeroplane.

[sally at pprune]

Thanks, everyone, for honest and intelligent answers. I’m coming from a male dominated environment (engineering) and I have encountered surprise at a woman engineer, and sexist attitudes there. I used to date a male nurse though, and I’ve never experienced the things he went though, (usually at the hands of other men). Personally, I think it matters not at all what gender, colour, etc. someone is. Can they do the job, can they work with other people? That’s all that matters.

When I have encountered sexism, I’ve usually ignored it. I couldn’t give a stuff whether it is deep seated prejudice or superficial taunting designed to get a reaction. I guess there are people who will have a shot at any outstanding characteristic; a regional accent, etc. You just have to be thick-skinned enough to ignore little men. (No, that’s not sizeism ;) )

Thanks for the encouragement.

[lizzard]

If you act professionaly you will get treated as such, doesn't matter if you're female or not, just a pity some female pilots seem to have a chip on their shoulder about the issue from the beginning.
We are 50% females at the base in Africa where I am now doing contrax, we don't get treated any differently, It's only assholes who will always look for the difference instead of looking at what we all have in common...a love for defying gravity.

[Whirlybird]

Sally,

A (male) engineer and aviator friend assures me there's far more sexism in engineering than aviation - so you should be fine, in fact probably pleasantly surprised. Only comes as a shock for those of us who've worked in less male dominated environments, who thought these attitudes went out in the Victorian age, and were utterly astonished when the first person said; "Oh, do you fly? Really? I think you're amazing."