Greens want to Ban over flights of Melbourne

[Guptar]

Greens move to ban Melbourne City Flights - Australian Flying (http://www.australianflying.com.au/latest/greens-move-to-ban-melbourne-city-flights)

No flight below 2000m within 5km of Melbourne City. Includes the Port Phillip Bay area.

No training flights into or out of Essendon.

Copy of the legislation that is being put forward.

http://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/download/legislation/bills/r5775_first-reps/toc_pdf/16198Bandt.pdf;fileType=application%2Fpdf

[Band a Lot]

Like most people even the ones that voted for them, you have never read their policy's. Aviation is a sin!

[neville_nobody]

Crown Casino are going to be loving this idea.........

[Stanwell]

... and Police and HEMS.
VW Kombis and Mazda Bongos don't run too well on used cooking oil either, they were disappointed to find.
Have any of that crowd ever held a job?

[B772]

Greens policy includes the closure of SYD even before Badgerys Creek opens.

They are a bunch of fruitcakes.

[MikeJulietHotel]

Fruitcakes they may be, but this government needs them and this amendment may well pass.

[Ixixly]

This is surely a joke right? You're talking about Melbourne, one of the busiest cities in Australia in terms of traffic (Ground traffic, cars, trucks etc...), maybe even THE busiest and they seriously have the audacity to suggest that the few movements in and out of Essendon have even the SLIGHTEST effect on the overall noise levels?!

[Bankstown Boy]

Awww ... come on Ixixly.

What do you expect from the watermelons? Sound public policy?

No, their little totalitarian hearts are always trying to find the next way to express their deep atavistic desire to control everything and everyone not like them.

Ignore them - most of the population does.

[dhavillandpilot]

Please don't ignore them, remember Germany did that in the 1930's with what most people thought a party of nutters. See what we got from that lot.

Canberra politics these days is all about deals and Turnbull and co are so desperate to do them they would sell their souls.

The greens need to be stopped in their tracks NOW. Everyone has to contact their local member and voice an opinion, before this idiots idea get a head of steam.

In my case Scott Morrison gets my "please explain" letter and a follow up visit to his electoral office.

[Sunfish]

You idiots! This is not just restricted to Melbourne! While there is a section in the Act devoted to Melbourne, the rest applies Australia wide to any airstrip!

That means that any NIMBY can shut you down permanently. Airservices will be deluged with complaints from every axe grinder in the country. Their cheapest response is to shut you down.

If you ever needed a reason to never vote "green" you now have it.

[Jabawocky]

Look out, they are evil lying and cunning morons. This needs to be treated seriously.

Next you will have PCA, Plane Control Australia. A moron associate adjunct professor who can't tell a 172 from a 747 spewing all manner of research reports on why planes should be banned.

And you might think I am taking the p1$$.

[Tuck Mach]

As someone who watched Australia get hollowed out in the last fifteen years, it does not suprise me.

The treasurer Scott Morrison worked for the Property Council as a research director. Wonder who donates to him? Wonder why he is soo opposed to housing reform? Sam Dastryari aligns his interests in the South China Sea with his benefactors and not the ALP. He did get about $1600 dollars to help him out with a legal bill. Then has the audacity to say he complied with the rules...

As for the Greens they are green in 'name only'.
They are happy as is NXT et al with continued population growth, a reduced GDP per capita stagnant wages, manufacturing closing everywhere, replaced by what??

Unmitigated and continued immigration growth leads to over crowded cities, traffic gridlock, pollution,destroying the environment ....Not a peep about that..

They all seem suprised that Brexit, Trump and Hanson are on the rise..:mad:

[garrya100]

Noted that the "Community Aviation Advocate" in section 160A is an oxymoron......

[peterc005]

Just remembered, Adam Bandt is my local member.

I'll write him a letter and try to organise a meeting.

[neville_nobody]

I highly doubt that the Melbourne proposal will go anywhere. The reason for that is because the people with money and power use corporate aviation in Melbourne. In fact they are pushing for Melbourne to take over Sydney as the 'premier destination' in Australia just by the sole fact you fly your jet in there and get a chopper to the city.

Those sort of people don't make any noise they just quietly get things done the way they want. If this proposal actually gets serious you will find surprisingly that Labor and Liberal Parties will come out against it as both will be lobbied by their respective big ticket donors.

If Packer managed bypass government in Sydney to get an entire Casino built on the some of the most sort after real estate in the world, I'm sure he'll be flying his punters from YMEN to the CBD for many years to come.

[Old Fella]

I think the Greens are slowly, but surely, digging themselves into an ever deeper hole. They really are a bunch of hypocrites. If they really believed the stuff they peddle none of them would use any form of fossil fuel powered land, sea or air transport, they would use candles for lighting and live in mud brick homes.

[StiflersMum]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WH_MBwQhGgA

[Atlas Shrugged]

Well, there goes 2 minutes of my life I'll never get back....

[Andy_RR]

Ironic that the Greens (allegedly) want to "green" the area that suffers the most from the intervention and modification by mankind for the benefit of mankind but, presumably, would be happy for GA to spew lead all over the wilderness...?

[Squawk7700]

Whilst I fully support aviation in every way, I know why they are complaining. Helicopter traffic in the Mel CBD particularly on a weekend can be moderately intense. I was on the river last weekend, perhaps 8-10 movements in the hour that I noticed. It doesn't sound like many but it's not an airport, it's the helipads right in town on the river outside the Casino and popular pedestrian areas. Like it or not, they are noisy and often sit running for extended periods. They are running joy flights from right outside Crown, takeoff down the river and climb out towards the Westgate.

[cooperplace]

Noted that the "Community Aviation Advocate" in section 160A is an oxymoron......

yes isn't it; they're nuts.

[Ixixly]

Squawk7700 if they didn't have those flights would you really consider the area to be any less noisy? You are right in the heart of the CBD, a very busy CBD with Cars, Trams, Trains, Buses and Trucks not all that far away.

If we shut down those flights would there be any real respite? or would we just be shutting down a perfectly legitimate business and find no real reward?

If the Helicopters are the problem then why are they not specifically mentioning them or targeting them? I'd suggest this is because they know they wouldn't really have a leg to stand on and that there would be some other personal interests they aren't disclosing, perhaps inregards to properties they own on the river or in the city.

[Squawk7700]

You definitely hear them and it would be much more peaceful without them, for sure. But as for the reward for stopping them - immeasurable.

[Captain Dart]

The Melbourne Greens would be better off banning the over-amplified noise of the buskers' excruciating performances that plague the CBD. Far worse than blade slap.

[Stationair8]

Proof that our politicians need to be drug tested on a regular basis to keep the country safe!

[ACMS]

So a scenic orbit of the CBD in a PA28 at 1,500' is way too loud? The damn trucks and Hogs on the road are way louder.

Idiots

[KittyKatKaper]

Section 10C of their proposed bill Review of flight paths created or changed on or after 1 January 2012
(1) A person may request AA to review a new flight path route, or a change to an existing flight path route, made on or after 1 January 2012 as a result of AA’s management of flight paths if:
(a) the person is directly impacted by take-off and landing of aircraft because of the flight path; or
(b) the person is subjected to high intensity air traffic from flyover impact because of the flight path.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Re 'the person is directly impacted by take-off and landing of aircraft because of the flight path'......

= Speared by an 'errant' pitot tube... ??

:cool::p

[porch monkey]

Then they can f#cking well walk to Canberra then. Hypocritical assholes.

[dhavillandpilot]

I assume like all politians they occasionally charter aircraft?

Does this mean they will drive in future!!!!!

[Flying Binghi]

...Does this mean they will drive in future!!!!!

Heh, how could they do that and not be hypocrites. The bitumen that coats the roads comes thanks to the coal and oil industry's. And them greeny muppets hate the coal and oil industry...:hmm:




.

[Rod Con]

I remember some years ago someone from the Greens trying to book a Charter Flight for Bob Brown to fly over the Wonthaggi Desalination plant. They required an aircraft with about TWENTY seats.

[Sbaker]

I pray most days, one day I will wake up to hear the news all greens members are reported missing. They are a cancer that has infected the minds of today's youth with their ideologies, spreading misinformation and lies, then reporting them as facts. - most of which has NOTHING to do with the environment.

Seeing how easily Australians believe the crap they spread has made me lose hope in this country and it's future.

-rant over-

PS: Jabawocky - enjoyed the reference to GCA.. wish we still had our semi's.

[bw2004]

Agree completely with the sentiment of this thread however.....

What is the response to this from GA?

Just because the proposal is crazy doesn't mean it won't be passed. Surely it wouldn't be the only crazy legislation that has been passed through parliament.

[MikeJulietHotel]

^^ What he said. Then it won't happen to Essendon, it won't happen to YMMB...it will happen to the small operators who haven't got the deep pockets to fight the process. Small airfields, small operators, wiped out.

Not a peep from any of the industry bodies.

Not a doomsayer or anything but I've watched these useless tits in action for too long. Pity all of us with Bandt as our local member. He's responsible for most things that happen in the world - you don't have to ask him, he'll tell you repeatedly without asking.

[AOPA]

AOPA Australia opposes the Adam Bandt MP Members Bill that serves to remove the rights of Australian aircraft owners and pilots.

Thursday, 1st December 2016

The Hon Adam Bandt MP
Member for Melbourne, Australian Greens
House of Representatives
PO BOX 6022
Canberra ACT 2600, Australia

The Hon Darren Chester MP
Minister for Infrastructure and Transport
House of Representatives
Parliament House
Canberra ACT 2600, Australia.

Mr Bandt,

I am writing to you on behalf of the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association (AOPA) of Australia in response to your Members Bill introduced to Parliament on Monday 28th November 2016, seeking to remove the rights of Australian general aviation pilots and aircraft owners by effectively banning flights over Melbourne City (MCTY).

The AOPA Australia firmly opposes your proposed legislation and is seriously concerned that neither yourself or your staff have sought to consult with the Australian general aviation industry, so as to seek cooperative solutions that does not include forcibly removing the rights of ordinary Australian’s to participate in flying in and around Melbourne, Victoria.

With the above in mind, the AOPA Australia would like to convene a meeting as soon as practical so that we may develop a full and complete understanding of the issues and concerns raised by your constituents. If your office could please confirm a time, it would be greatly appreciated.

Yours Sincerely,

BENJAMIN MORGAN
Executive Director - Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association (AOPA)

Hangar 600, Prentice Street, Bankstown Airport NSW 2200 Australia.
PO BOX 26, Georges Hall NSW 2198 Australia.

Mobile: 0415 577 724
Telephone: (02) 9791 9099
Email: [email protected]

[gerry111]

I suspect Linfox has a fair bit of political influence when it comes to YMEN.

[cattletruck]

There isn't much green in Melbourne city anyway. Most of it is vacant high density high-rise buildings owned by foreigners, so what exactly are these loopies defending... never mind.

Just legalise marijuana and everything will go quiet.

[MikeJulietHotel]

Thanks for your input AOPA, but really. How about a letter that's in the English language? Paragraph 2 is a complete shocker.

How about a letter with some hard hitting facts about noise signatures of GA aircraft, the inverse square law and the lack of evidence to support the proposed impost? How about a clear statement about the regulatory impact on business and private operators of the proposed arrangements?

I, like many others I'm sure, am very grateful that we have an organisation like AOPA. But please hit harder than a damp lettuce leaf.

[Ixixly]

MikeJulietHotel, they can't just come out swinging straight away, the Greens have barely mentioned what any of their specific issues are that are causing them to seek this.

As such AOPA are trying to find out what the issues are and I'm sure they will then bring out facts to oppose it that are directly related to the issues the Greens raise.

[Sunfish]

The Greens all live in The Peoples Republic of Northcote. I guess they get traffic for YMEN.

Where I live, a helicopter is either a fire bomber or a friend - in both cases welcome.

The most dangerous result for aviation from this Green bill is the message it sends to both major political parties: That green support for government legislation can be bought by F%^&ing over aviation again.

[AOPA]

Update on our letter.

The AOPA Australia have received communication from the office of Adam Bandt MP and is looking forward to meeting in Melbourne so that we can discuss.

BEN

[MikeJulietHotel]

Fair comment, my experience however is that you only get one chance to grab attention of the Minister. That means a letter that's easy to read and not distracting and which raises a couple of points that make him stop and think. Ultimately it's him the Greens need across the line if they want this to go. If he won't buy it and if he thinks he will feel pressure then it won't happen. That's why this letter needed to give him the headlines about why he should be concerned.

The letter won't get his attention like it needs to.

MikeJulietHotel, they can't just come out swinging straight away, the Greens have barely mentioned what any of their specific issues are that are causing them to seek this.

As such AOPA are trying to find out what the issues are and I'm sure they will then bring out facts to oppose it that are directly related to the issues the Greens raise.

[CYHeli]

Approx 2 years ago I attended a meeting that was hosted by AA at the MCG and all of the relevant helicopter companies were invited. Unfortunately a very busy scenic company based at EN choose not to turn up.
One of the issues identified is when EN airspace is under IF/SVFR conditions that helicopters get held outside CTA and they tend to orbit over Melb East. It was discussed to include an alternative holding area that was less noise intrusive as an amendment into the ERSA entry for EN.
There was plenty of other discussion, but I don't have a copy of the minutes. Someone from AA may have more details.
I will inform other members of the AHIA about this thread and info.

[Dick Smith]

Helicopter joy flights in city areas normally result in a complete closure of the helipad. Happened in Sydney and also at Fishermans Wharf in San Fran. And everywhere else I have researched

Random movements quite often acceptable. Continuous joy flights drive people mad.

Suggest the joy flights stop before a complete closure like in Sydney .

[John Eacott]

Helicopter joy flights in city areas normally result in a complete closure of the helipad. Happened in Sydney and also at Fishermans Wharf in San Fran. And everywhere else I have researched

Random movements quite often acceptable. Continuous joy flights drive people mad.

Suggest the joy flights stop before a complete closure like in Sydney .

Dick, there are no continuous helicopter joy flights to be stopped in Melbourne. They are random and indistinguishable from day to day helicopter movements, which have operated from the Yarra helipads for about 40 years. Your research will show you that.

City orbits by joyflighting fixed wing from Moorabbin are just as frequent, as are inbound RPT routing for right base to 34 at YMML overflying at ~2,000-2,500ft.

[Band a Lot]

"continuous helicopter joy flights"


"Continuous joy flights"


either way it is horrible being next to a place that has "often" helicopter movements. It is on par with standing in front of a Garret TPE engine. Depending on the chopper not sure what is the worst.

[cattletruck]

There are a number of busy truck routes near the Melbourne helipads that are already making nearby high rise life less pleasurable.

[CYHeli]

The joy flight company is based at YMEN, an airport not one of the pads on the Yarra.
EN has class C airspace and is perfect for training and therefore every flying school in the Melbourne basin sends students in and out of there for training. For helicopters this is generally not above 1500' and fixed wing either at or not below 1500'.
I think one option would be to vary the routes in and out. But a flight over the MCG is a fantastic view, although it is what takes the aircraft over East Melbourne where a lot of the complaints are coming from.

[Captain Dart]

Devil's Advocate mode on: Myself and the Grievance and Discipline Committee were strolling in the Melbourne Botanic Gardens on a Sunday recently. This thread came to mind. Even I, a 'total aviation person', found the helicopter noise intrusive and incessant. If they were Hueys it would have been something out of Apocalypse Now. Just an observation. Devil's Advocate mode off.

Still better than the buskers elsewhere in the city though.

[rjtjrt]

Devil's Advocate mode on: Myself and the Grievance and Discipline Committee were strolling in the Melbourne Botanic Gardens on a Sunday recently. This thread came to mind. Even I, a 'total aviation person', found the helicopter noise intrusive and incessant. If they were Hueys it would have been something out of Apocalypse Now. Just an observation. Devil's Advocate mode off.

Still better than the buskers elsewhere in the city though.
Capt Dart
Botanic Gardens is under commonly used approach path for helicopter ambulance to Alfred Hospital, main Trauma Centre for Victoria. Weekend is busiest time for them.

[Flying Binghi]

Heh... irritating things untill yer need a ride to hospital..:)

I couldn't imagine too many Melburnians would pay for a jollie over the city so i'm guessing it is tourists. So the green numpties are attacking those that is earning tourist dollars for Melbourne business. The typical mindset of those that live off the public purse..:hmm:




.

[rjtjrt]

Looking at it again on map, I am wrong. Botanic Gardens is too far away, so more likely non ambulance traffic that Dart heard.
Must say Botanic Gardens Melb is one of my favourite places.

[Ixixly]

And it would be fine and dandy if the greens came and said "We'd like to review the use of Airspace by Helicopters and Fixed Wing Aircraft in the Melbourne CBD Area in order to reduce noise pollution that affects residents in the area" instead we basically get "TELL THEM ALL TO P*SS OFF!"

In other words they most likely did little to research on the issue before putting this out there and don't have a damned clue what they're talking about they just don't want those whizzy, noisy things in the sky anywhere near them or the property they own...oops, I mean they don't want them near their constituents whom they represent and have complained about it!

[MikeJulietHotel]

^^^ What he said. The Greens indulge in the very worst form of reactive politics. From my perspective it's not policy or values driven, it just appears to be responding to every pressure group in the electorate because every single vote is what it takes to keep them there.

Decent politicians have a "tell them to piss off" kind of approach for things that matter more than the interests of a small sub set. Yes that pisses me off if I'm one of the subset, but it's better representation than this crap.

[Sunfish]

There is only one mantra for Australia at present; "Growth, Investment, Jobs".

This was drummed into my head when I was a lowly stoker in the Geoff Kennett ship of state in Victoria.

Each and every policy proposal, plan, regulation, idea and action was measured by asking the simple question; "what does XXX do for Growth, Investment and Jobs?". If the answer for any of them was in the negative, we didn't do it. Simple.

Clearly the Greens don't want to care about this because their proposal negatively impacts all of the above. I'm not sure if the current Labor opposition or Government understands it either. The coming recession should concentrate their minds on those three things.

On a related topic, if I had unlimited free time, it would be interesting to see the statistics on GA, because using GDP numbers the sector should probably be 50% larger if it had kept up with the rest of the economy over the last ten years. That would quantify what the dead hand of CASA has cost us.

[mickjoebill]

Since 2004 number of residents in Municipality of Melbourne (extends from docklands to Jolimont) has risen from estimated 75000 to 137000.
http://www.melbourne.vic.gov.au/SiteCollectionDocuments/daily-population-estimates-and-forecasts-report-2015.pdf

The above report estimates that on a typical weekday 800,000 folk are present in Melbourne living working or hanging out..

Some personal observations....
I occasionally stay in a low rise flat (no double glazing) in East Melbourne and R44 traffic have regularly caught my attention in the morning.

In the past month I've visited Royal Melbourne Hospital and was happy to witness HEMS landings on three out of four visits.

Apart from the occasions as a back seat passenger, I've seen just one landing on the Yarra in the 7 years I've been back in oz.

Helicopters seem to be more noticeable in Melbourne than London, perhaps as London background noise at street level is higher?

Also Melbourne is a more open air society (think of parks and barbies) compared to London or New York.
A 60 something couple I know gave up on living in a high rise near Southbank two years ago as they could not bear the noise of garbage trucks collecting from businesses in early hours, where the use of large metal bins is common.

LA accepts the noise of media helicopters. (I was once in the air with 8 other media helicopters in LA) but tinsel town more than any society, applaudes the notion of 5 minutes of fame so they are a special case.

This week Victoria State Government committed to funding three new Police helicopters and a new fixed wing.

Last time I looked, Victoria, per capita, has far fewer helicopters in emergency services role compared to the UK or USA.

Curiously Victorian Police helicopters seem to rarely loiter, at least compared to LA or Met Police.

The number of stabilised camera systems in Australia has doubled in recent years.

So it seems likly there will be an increase in helicopter movements overhead a growing city which is proud of the claim of being the most livable city in the world.


Mickjoebill

[Pinky the pilot]

irritating things untill yer need a ride to hospital..

Been there, done that. Got the T shirt. (And the scars from the subsequent surgery.):}

The Greens indulge in the very worst form of reactive politics. From my perspective it's not policy or values driven, it just appears to be responding to every pressure group in the electorate because every single vote is what it takes to keep them there.


Considering that the 'Watermelon Party' consists of if you scratch them deeply enough, mainly Trotskyites with various assorted Marxists/Leninists; Well now, that doesn't surprise me.:*

Don't believe me? Do a bit of research on various Green MP's backgrounds.

[cattletruck]

I hear the Yarra river is so polluted it could catch on fire.

Just waiting on some green looney to bring up the subject of chemtrails.

[CYHeli]

I hear the Yarra river is so polluted it could catch on fire.

Just waiting on some green looney to bring up the subject of chemtrails.

Didn't the chemtrails cause the thunderstorm asthma event recently?!?

[doublemamba]

I want to ban the garden state greens ever flying out and over Melbourne, lest they infect the rest of us with 'safe schools' and other marxist crap
I am off to my safe space now

[thorn bird]

All this sounds like the Bat issue in Queensland where bats have taken up residence in some towns. Greens say move the town rather than the bats.
Maybe they should move the Melbourne CBD, certainly if the river is about to spontaneously combust.

[Squawk7700]

Dick, there are no continuous helicopter joy flights to be stopped in Melbourne. They are random and indistinguishable from day to day helicopter movements, which have operated from the Yarra helipads for about 40 years. Your research will show you that.

Dick is spot on John. There are near continuous joy flights from the Yarra on a daily basis; not all day but enough to be annoying. I counted more than half a dozen yesterday (a Thursday) when I was there for around one hour. Depending on where you are standing, you literally need to pause your conversation whilst they warm up and depart.

Microflite operate up to two EC130's (or smaller) from the one pad just down from the World Trade Centre and PHS were operating a Jetranger which flew multiple times from the council heliport opposite Crown. Microflite even operate a 130 in full red and gold Crown Casino livery.

(I know you are aware of the finer details JE, just noting them for Dick and others)

In all honesty, the operation of these helicopters doesn't seem to be in-line with a fully risk-adverse approach. I haven't spotted any warning signs regarding the coexistence of boats and helicopters where the helicopters lift off and literally reverse out over the river regardless of what is below and plaster them with full downwash from a 130 or similar.

JE - can you please elaborate on why the operators of the council pad don't allow R44's to land, or advise against it, don't allow it or otherwise? (Correct me if I am wrong of course)

[John Eacott]

Dick is spot on John. There are near continuous joy flights from the Yarra on a daily basis; not all day but enough to be annoying. I counted more than half a dozen yesterday (a Thursday) when I was there for around one hour. Depending on where you are standing, you literally need to pause your conversation whilst they warm up and depart.

Microflite operate up to two EC130's (or smaller) from the one pad just down from the World Trade Centre and PHS were operating a Jetranger which flew multiple times from the council heliport opposite Crown. Microflite even operate a 130 in full red and gold Crown Casino livery.

(I know you are aware of the finer details JE, just noting them for Dick and others)

In all honesty, the operation of these helicopters doesn't seem to be in-line with a fully risk-adverse approach. I haven't spotted any warning signs regarding the coexistence of boats and helicopters where the helicopters lift off and literally reverse out over the river regardless of what is below and plaster them with full downwash from a 130 or similar.

JE - can you please elaborate on why the operators of the council pad don't allow R44's to land, or advise against it, don't allow it or otherwise? (Correct me if I am wrong of course)

First, I would certainly not class half a dozen flights in an hour on the Thursday before Christmas to be 'continuous' and nor were they necessarily scenic flights. My op from the Yarra Bank helipad yesterday was a photographic job over Southbank.

Stopping once every ten minutes for a helicopter takeoff is nothing compared to the loud music from the restaurants across the river on the Southbank Boulevard, which were able to be clearly heard at the pad! This is not a 'daily operation' but a seasonal surge of flying in good weather close to a public holiday; come along in wintertime and there may be days between flights.

Risk averse? Well, I guess if there were no operations that may satisfy the NIMBYs and be as risk averse as possible, along with having a man (or gender neutral person of indeterminate biological creation) walk with a red flag in front of every car, bike and bus. This is an aviation forum, flying has an intrinsic risk which is managed within degrees. The flight path is overwater and with minimum risk to those along the Yarra River, including the pleasure craft who also manage to avoid ramming and sinking each other. The pad meanwhile, has been there for some 40 years.

Absolutely no idea what you are referencing with your query about council pads: there aren't any that I know of. They are all private pads along the Yarra River, and what they choose to operate or allow to operate is their commercial decision.

[Squawk7700]

Isn't the one opposite Crown Casino council owned, but operated by a third party - is it Heliserv, formerly managed by MicroFlite? This is the one I was advised that doesn't allow 44's.

Admittedly the MF pads were far more utilized yesterday than the other one, with a string of mostly foreign tourists lining up for a jolly.

As for risk, I would rather be enjoying my pleasure craft on the river (making limited noise) and not have a helicopter blindly reverse over me 30ft above my head. I'm not an informed aviation participant in this instance.


Note: This video has nothing to do with any reversing "incident"

https://youtu.be/tN3Ejs7mIw8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5Y2LojhEgM

Stopping once every ten minutes for a helicopter takeoff is nothing compared to the loud music from the restaurants across the river on the Southbank Boulevard, which were able to be clearly heard at the pad!

The problem is that people enjoy music as it's entertaining. Some spinning helicopter blades and a turbine engine whining away for 5 minutes at a time plus takeoff is unfortunately only entertaining for those international tourists sitting in the cabin wearing a Bose headset.

I'm a pilot and have been for quite a few years and I can see both sides of the argument. For people here to suggest that air traffic in the CBD is not noisy, are barking up the wrong tree and have probably rarely even been in there.

[John Eacott]

Isn't the one opposite Crown Casino council owned, but operated by a third party - is it Heliserv, formerly managed by MicroFlite? This is the one I was advised that doesn't allow 44's.

Admittedly the MF pads were far more utilized yesterday than the other one, with a string of mostly foreign tourists lining up for a jolly.

As for risk, I would rather be enjoying my pleasure craft on the river (making limited noise) and not have a helicopter blindly reverse over me 30ft above my head. I'm not an informed aviation participant in this instance.


Note: This video has nothing to do with any reversing "incident"

https://youtu.be/tN3Ejs7mIw8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5Y2LojhEgM



The problem is that people enjoy music as it's entertaining. Some spinning helicopter blades and a turbine engine whining away for 5 minutes at a time plus takeoff is unfortunately only entertaining for those international tourists sitting in the cabin wearing a Bose headset.

I'm a pilot and have been for quite a few years and I can see both sides of the argument. For people here to suggest that air traffic in the CBD is not noisy, are barking up the wrong tree and have probably rarely even been in there.

I've been operating to the Yarra Bank for about 35 years, no idea how many thousands of landings I've done and this is the first time I've been faced with a pilot proposing a misinformed load of twaddle to uphold a beef against the operations.

First, the videos that you link show perfectly safe and standard helipad departures with no intrusion on any river traffic. A helipad takeoff keeping the pad visible through the chin window ensures a safe return to the pad before decision point should an emergency require it, plus the EC130s shown have flotation gear for an emergency landing on the water.

The helipads are owned by the operators: PHS for the Yarra Bank helipad and Microflite for the World Trade Centre pad. When it was a single pad I had an engine failure on finals and plonked it down quite happily, so there is proof that the operations follow a set, standard and safe procedure. The lease for the river is with a number of state government bodies, no council involvement.

As for risk, I would rather be enjoying my pleasure craft on the river (making limited noise) and not have a helicopter blindly reverse over me 30ft above my head. I'm not an informed aviation participant in this instance.

You certainly aren't informed. I have rarely managed to hear a helicopter idling on the YB pad, never on the WTC pad, when across the river at Southbank Boulevard. A limited time when lifting but 99% of people in the area see it as an attraction; you are the first that I have ever heard to consider it as an annoyance. How often are you out on the Yarra in your pleasure craft? If it is often enough to be concerned then haven't you learned to keep to the other side of the river, away from the pads?

[Squawk7700]

If it is often enough to be concerned then haven't you learned to keep to the other side of the river, away from the pads?

SOP's for boats require passage to the starboard side of the river. Traversing the other side would be a hazard akin to landing on the opposite direction to the duty runway. Downstream traffic when clearing the pedestrian bridge is exposed to the pad almost as soon as clearing the bridge, so switching over is not an option.

The video was to demonstrate the noise component and to give an idea as to how long it continues for, not flight over passenger vessels (that video has been separately forwarded to the relevant parties). Do your SOP's require you to look behind when reversing or perform a clearing turn first?

If you can't hear a helicopter from Southbank, you should get your hearing checked your an audiologist.

Believe it or not, many of the local businesses don't enjoy the helicopter traffic as much as the pilots that fly them. As I said, it's about excessive noise for 5+ minutes, multiple times per hour for the enjoyment of a select few on-board versus potentially hundreds or more pedestrians, not to mention the smell of jet fuel, particularly when sitting there for prolonged periods waiting for passengers between flights.


In reponse to residents' concerns over aircraft noise, Bandt says he will introduce legislation that will ban all but emergency aircraft from flying within 5 km of MCTY at an altitude of less than 6500 feet.

Don't forget, this thread is about aircraft noise, but yet you seem to think that nobody notices it...

[John Eacott]

We'll obviously have to agree to disagree.

But please let me know where you operate from so that I can go and perform a risk analysis and a noise assessment to ensure that my sensibilities aren't offended by your safe operations ;)

[cattletruck]

Sadly my grand view of both pads comes to end next year and I have thoroughly enjoyed rating your arrivals and departures to these pads when I could.

I would say these pads only get busy on GP week, Melbourne Cup week, and most Friday afternoons in what I guess are the usual business airport transfers. Other than that it's quite idle with traffic with the only real noisemaker being the infrequent visit by an A109 Grand.

Prior to a foot injury a couple of months ago which has hindered my ability to visit the pads during my lunch break, I would notice most people not noticing and not even turning their heads as a helicopter lifts off the pad. On the other hand die-hards, kids and families love the novelty of seeing a whirlybird setting off on their visit to the big smoke.

I've not seen a lot of joy flights per-say, seems like a lot of these helicopters arrive under some other circumstance and while at the pad switch to the classic joy flight spruiking should there be any takers. It's funny seeing peoples faces when they learn of the cost for a flight.

Also recently noticed the PHS machines visiting... bugger the foot injury.

As for sailing on the Yarra, once-upon-a-time the biggest worry for helicopter operators was not tipping over the long row boats belonging to the clubs up the river. However these days they no longer venture that far down because of increasing commercial activities and too many fast moving motorised water craft creating too much chop.

Cant see how people can enjoy that part of the river, the Toorakians crapper plumbing feeds directly into it, storm drains dump into it with their filters unable to catch small rubbish debris, there are often oily plumes floating on top of it, it smells of decaying organic matter. It's only a river in name.

[Squawk7700]

I would say these pads only get busy on GP week, Melbourne Cup week, and most Friday afternoons

They really come alive on the weekends.

About three weekends back we counted more than a dozen joy flights over 1.5 hours across the two platforms / four pads.

[cattletruck]

Can't vouch for the weekend Squawks as most of us city workers can't bare to see the sight of the place on our days off.

Melbourne has become quite an international tourist destination in the last 5 years (which I find perplexing as it's mostly contrived), everything in the big smoke is just getting more and more crowded. Even the mayor wants to artificially turn it into an open-24-hours town at tax payers' expense.

[Squawk7700]

Even the mayor wants to artificially turn it into an open-24-hours town at tax payers' expense.


Apparently that concept is called "Asianisation" lol.

[mickjoebill]

Midway between a glitzy casino and a busy commuter train line is a reasonable location for decadent boys toys!

The pads are interesting landmarks to pass in one of the rented motor boats.

Here is the PDF of the estimated population of Melbourne.
http://www.melbourne.vic.gov.au/SiteCollectionDocuments/daily-population-estimates-and-forecasts-report-2015.pdf

The report indicates that 250,000 visitors versus 130,000 residents occupy Melbourne midweek.

Like most cities visitors outnumber residents. The trend in high rise apartments in CBD is for designs without a balcony, to maximise interior space.

But yes, less noise is better.
Israeli startup StoreDot has suggested tech that allows a battery to be charged in 5 minutes.
http://www.store-dot.com/single-post/2016/10/09/StoreDot-is-named-among-Europes-hottest-startups-of-2016Tel-Aviv

It would be ideal for short duration (10-30 min) flights over noise sensitive locations. Recharge between flights.

Just as some of the watercraft on the Yarra have gone electric, one day so will the aerial craft.

I hope the Yarra pads are still available when this tech is commercialised.


Mickjoebill

[Sunfish]

:D'sailing' (as in sole means of movement) is illegal in the navigable stretch of the Yarra, a motor is required (Port Rules).

Squawk7700, by the way, has just demonstrated that he is a NIMBY (not in my backyard), this is inconsistent with piloting any aircraft since by definition, all domestic and regional airports are surrounded with NIMBY noise police vermin. This is rather sad, but given the caliber of his posts, not unexpected.

P.S. All the great cities in the world (except perhaps Tokyo) operate 24/7/365. So some parochial pr1ck doesn't like helicopter noise? Get used to it.

P.P.S An alleged pilot complaining about aircraft noise? No wonder Australian GA is in a bad way

[Squawk7700]

P.P.S An alleged pilot complaining about aircraft noise? No wonder Australian GA is in a bad way

You are nothing short of a NUFTI Sunfish - look up the acronym for that.

It's not my backyard, so I don't care how noisy it is.

There was talk of banning flights due to noise, everyone posts saying "what noise?" and I gave relevant examples and video evidence. Did you even watch the video? Next time I'll take a DB meter for interests sake.

[gerry111]

cattletruck wrote:

"Can't vouch for the weekend Squawks as most of us city workers can't bare to see the sight of the place on our days off."

There's nothing to be ashamed of appropriate nudity..

[mickjoebill]

They really come alive on the weekends.

About three weekends back we counted more than a dozen joy flights over 1.5 hours across the two platforms / four pads.


Yesterday, 6pm to 9pm we had a picnic in Fitzroy Gardens, East Melbourne which is a couple of city blocks from the Yarra.

Saw one HEMS going into the Alfred.
Despite the noise, no one else in the party of 20 gave it even a first look.

Zero other helicopters seen or heard.

I would say these pads only get busy on GP week, Melbourne Cup week, and most Friday afternoons

In reference to the quote above, yesterday was a Friday, plenty of tourists in town I imagine.

Just asked Mrs MJB if she heard the helicopter yesterday?
Answer "no"


Mickjoebill

[Ash767]

Well, I have emailed my local member and also the local member of the federal seat that covers my local airport asking them NOT to support this bill! I urge others to do the same if you have not already done so :-)

[The Wawa Zone]

There is a reason the Greens get a max 10% of the vote - the ideas that they come up with only take root in that 10% of the population who believes in unicorns and fairies.

[Pinky the pilot]

There is a reason the Greens get a max 10% of the vote - the ideas that they come up with only take root in that 10% of the population who believes in unicorns and fairies.

From what I have been able to discover about the Watermelon party's supporters, it seems that quite a sizable number are inner city dwellers who are sufficiently well off. They vote for the 'melons' in an attempt to assuage their consciences perhaps?

Others are of course the young radicals/idealists.

One Election day I asked someone handing out the Green how to vote cards about one of their policies. Just received a blank look and a reply that he didn't know they even had a policy on the issue I was enquiring on.:rolleyes:

[falconx]

POLAIR, Ambos, RFDS, Fire Supression all to protect lives and property and we want to move it further away

[mickjoebill]

Personal aircraft noise blog;

Lunch with friends on the Southbank 100 meters from the pad. Saw one movement as we crossed the Yarra but nothing whilst we ate, from noon to when we left at 2pm.

Afternoon lunch before an IMAX movie in exhibition gardens, outside exhibition building. 45 minutes or so, exposed to the threat of aircraft noise.
A vintage fixed wing and a robbo 44.
Sound of kids shouting in the park and a harley were louder.

By the way, the IMAX movie "Living in the Age of Airplanes" commences at Melbourne IMAX feb 8th.
Highly recommended, not a 10/10 but a solid 8/10.

If you haven't seen it, catch "Beautiful Planet" shot from the International Space station on the same day.
https://imaxmelbourne.com.au/session_times_and_tickets

Both movies describe or implicitly reveal a real world view of the benefits of aviation that may temper the negative views of some East melbourne residents.

Mickjoebill