How I did it! How you can do it!

[A320baby]

Good morning wannabes,

As the aviation industry is starting to boom I thought it appropriate to write a short blog on how I got into aviation, so people like myself, with not so privileged backgrounds can get into aviation with hard work and dedication!

Like most from a very early age I had a massive obsession with aircraft, I was totally mesmerised about aviation, at every opportunity I was either looking up at the sky looking or reading about planes, I knew where my future career lay!

I was lucky enough to start and obtain my PPL at the age of 17.

During my school days, I was never the brightest kid in my class in fact far from it, I struggled my maths, I remember quite clearly my career advisor telling me to think about another career path because being a pilot was so far out of my reach! (How wrong could one be!!) that being said I left school at the age of 16 with not one GCSE above the C grade.

*disclaimer: The school did not fail me, I failed myself and I learnt the hard way.

So with my aviation dream in tatters off I went and got a job scaffolding (which I still dabble in today) very soon I realised that this is not the career I want to spend the rest of my life doing, so I had to make a plan. I calculated that if I save my salary for 4 years, with family help I can fund a modular aviation course, this is exactly what I did! In the mean time I was attending night school retaking my flunked GCSE in math and English to which I passed with very high grades!

At the age of 20 I finally had enough money saved to fund my training and survive not working for two years, I embarked on ATPL in house course (14 written exams) at London metropolitan university. I studied here full time for about 6-8 months, even tho hard work and lots of studying I made some fantastic friends and had so much fun! Out of the 14 exams, I passed 12 first time and had to retake POF and perf which I passed second time round. Not bad for a lad that left school with no GCSE's

Once the ATPLs was completed I went straight to stapleford flight centre for my hour building and commercial IR. I cannot fault stapleford, it's by far one of the best flight training organisations out there and I would recommend to anyone!!

Hour building: duration about 4 weeks flying a 152 up and down the country, I spent most of this time brushing up on my nav exercises which I knew I would need once the commencement of my CPL. Please please please make sure you have fun when doing the hour building as it's pretty much stress free.

Commercial pilots licence: duration 18 days, this was by far my favourite course. My instructor was fantastic majority of flying was done in the piper arrow, passed first time. The nav exercises during my hour building really paid dividends.

Instrument rating: duration 5 weeks. This was the course everyone feared, in fact I throughly enjoyed the IR, I seemed to gel with the instrument flying. Majority was flown in the DA42 and the DA42 sim. Passed first time.

MCC and JOC was done at OAA duration 5 days. Was a good introduction to working as a crew in an airline environment.

If you want me to elaborate any part of my blog please feel free to send me a PM!

In total I paid around £55,000 for a frozen ATPL modular at stapleford.

A few weeks after I completed my training, I was sending hundreds if not thousands of CV's to every single operator you could think of. Finally Ryanair contacted me and Invited me for an interview, I paid the 300 quid for the pleasure and after a week I was told I didn't make the grade. I was shocked and gutted by determined not to let it deter me!

Over the next year, I continued to make contacts in the industry, had a part time job at ipilot (fixed base 737 simulator company) and back scaffolding full time.

Finally an opportunity arose for Wizz air, I managed to pass the interview and spent 4 years flying the 320 based in Gdnask Poland. Wizz is the perfect company to start your career, flying lots, hard winters and difficult destinations, it's the ideal place to learn your trade.

I must say, that prior the the Wizz interview I had interviews with 4 smaller operators lined up and that was from making contacts and networking.

Next I left Wizz to come home to the UK and work for another fantastic exciting company called Air tanker flying the Airbus 330. This was a new and exciting place to work flying to worldwide destinations including the Falklands via Ascension Island. I spent about 15 months in air tanker before an amazing opportunity arose to fly for another long haul operator based at LHR to which I fly for to this day, I won't mention the name but put it this way, my favourite colour is red.

On my days off I do consultancy work for CTC teaching Airbus ground school to cadets, another job I obtained through networking.

All in all I've been flying commercially now for 6 years and I very happy with what I have achieved at the age of 28.

Please free free to message me any questions and for those who want to follow me on Instagram: gym_aviator

Good luck

[eckhard]

Well done!

You deserve your success.

My story is similar to yours, in that I had meagre school certificates and I paid for a slow, 'modular' course (but it wasn't called that in the 1970s). The main difference was that I spent quite a while instructing and doing classic GA jobs like air survey, air taxi and light exec-jet charters. That route to an airline doesn't seem to be as possible these days, which is a pity as I believe it teaches one a lot of things that MCC and JOC can't replicate.

44 years after my first solo, I finally made it into the LHS of a 'major', doing long-haul. I have enjoyed every step along the way.

Yours is an inspiring story and will hopefully encourage others who start off with less than ideal academic qualifications.

Again, well done!:ok:

[A320baby]

Yep typo, started PPl at 16

[Ronaldsway Radar]

Thanks for the post - I am on a very similar route, if not almost identical, and it's always great to hear when people have made it from similar backgrounds. Well done on your success and perseverance!

Not a choice for the faint of heart I'm sure you'll agree, but hopefully well worth it in the end.

[KayPam]

How is it possible to only get one answer from hundreds of cvs sent ?
That looks daunting

[A320baby]

Bearing in mind I finished training on the back end of a recession

[SeventhHeaven]

Very impressed reading your story, congratulations!

It does however make me bit jealous to read these stories .. 2 years+ isn't that bad in the grant scheme of things, but weighs on me at times! Also went to SFC, best time of my life!

Best of luck with your flying, though reading your story I'm convinced you'll be a RHS driver soon enough.

[Firm Touchdown]

A320 baby, you are a LEDGEnd

[captain.weird]

How did you get the 300hrs requirement for Wizz Air? Or was that not one of the requirements set out by them then?

[A320baby]

In 2010 no such requirement

[jamesgrainge]

Failed Eleven Plus exam, so I wasn't going to Grammar School.
Went to church twice a week, so I could get into a Church of England School, so I didn't have to mess with the ruffians at the local Comprehensive.

One O-Level grade C, General Science.
Two CSE grade 1, Maths, and Geography.

Twenty eight years now with one of the finest airlines in the world.
Twenty six as Captain.

Not bad for a Heathrow aircraft spotter.

Until you have pulled the yoke back during your first lesson you don't realise how hard you can work until you have that goal! Congrats, this place needs more optimism and encouragement like this!

[captain.weird]

Too bad they have the 300hr aircraft total time now :(

[KayPam]

Why would they ask 300 hours ? How is a 300hour pilot more proficient than a 200hrs one ?
The difference will most probably be 100 hours of piston...

[Jaair]

@KayPam I'm guessing it was increased due to the large influx of applicants.

[Jaair]

A320baby, did you continue flying between the time you had your frozen ATPL and the time it took you to get accepted into an airline (1 year from what I understand)?

[A320baby]

Flying ppl for fun and to keep current.

[Martin_123]

..with not so privileged backgrounds ... I was lucky enough to start and obtain my PPL at the age of 17. ...

I wonder did you pay for it all by yourself with your hard labor and sweat? fair play if you did

[jamesgrainge]

Fully support you!

[Martin_123]

fair play if that's how it happened. It's difficult to assess from the way story is laid out whether scaffolding came in after the PPL or before that. All that triggered me is that kids these days don't appreciate where stuff at their homes is coming from, thus if your mom and dad paid 10k to get you through your PPL some credit is due and you can hardly call yourself less privileged (than Arab kids with their lambos I suppose?)

If he got his PPL by working for it himself at the age of 17 I've nothing but utmost respect towards him

[A320baby]

Martin,

PPL and Frozen ATPL was funding by myself and i do not appreciate being insinuated as a :mad: My family provided a roof over my head while I was completing the training. This thread was supposed to be aimed at wannabes that think their dream is not achievable due to personal circumstance. so if you have nothing constructive to say Bore off!

Guys Thank you for your PM's I've just got back from a layover and i'll reply within the next few hours :ok:

Cheers.

[magicmick]

Scaffolder to long haul wide body pilot, serious kudos and congratulations to you.

Perhaps we need to look at scaaffolders in a different way:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJa7VzfWJQg

[A320baby]

Mike haha that's brilliant.. sums me up to a tee

[magicmick]

Nice to see that you kept the sense of humour though I hope that you and the skipper treat the stewardesses better than Harry and Paul treat the women walking past their building site.

To be fair, looking at the weather at the moment I would not want to be a scaffolder for any money.

[A320baby]

Humour and thick skin is a must in both careers, always good to banter the crew but he prepared for the payback! It's been brutal

[magicmick]

The banter would probably be funnier than the professional comedians sketches, though not suitable for a television show.

[inabw]

Only strongest man it could survives in this crazy field, with excellent skills, clearly. Thank you A320baby to share your story, 'cause is really important to motivate everybody us, little wannabes XD.

[Martin_123]

Martin,

PPL and Frozen ATPL was funding by myself and i do not appreciate being insinuated as a :mad: My family provided a roof over my head while I was completing the training. This thread was supposed to be aimed at wannabes that think their dream is not achievable due to personal circumstance. so if you have nothing constructive to say Bore off!

Guys Thank you for your PM's I've just got back from a layover and i'll reply within the next few hours :ok:

Cheers.
I want to apologize for jumping to any conclusions. I would have apologized a lot sooner, but my assessments earned me a week long holiday from this forum (well "earned", I admit). Inabw is right, this forum could use more positive stories

[portsharbourflyer]

A320 Baby, I don't want to take any credit from you, but achieving what you did while single and free from commitments and also been able to live at home while training actually makes it relatively "easy".

I have to frequently turn down interviews because the starting salary, the location simply is not workable with wife, kids and a mortgage with out getting divorced or going bankrupt, If I was single I would still be flying for a living. But congrats on the job.

[magicmick]

Very good point portsharbourflyer, I had to turn down an interview earlier this year as it was fairly short notice, my wife was working that day, could not get a shift change and we could not get reliable child care for our son at short notice. I asked for an alternative date but they just ditched me and gave the interview slot to someone else.

Though on the day of the interview I was unwell with a bad case of D&V so there was no way that I could complete the interview unless they were happy to hold it in a toilet!!!!!!!!

[A320baby]

I don't want to sound like an argumentive bugger but I also have a 7 year old son who was born same time as my Atpl

Good luck

[Poose]

Portsharbourflyer,

There's also another way of looking at it.
Some of us have refrained from having their own place, girlfriend, wife, kids, dog, hamster etc... so they can follow this path.
All the while, putting our lives on hold for that elusive hint of a job.

Does that not require a greater sacrifice or self discipline?

Personally, I don't take on things I can't afford.
Emotionally or financially.

A320, I'm pretty sure I know who you are. :)
If you are, who I think you are, we have a few mutual friends.

[portsharbourflyer]

Poose,

Sometimes some-things in life are not planned; my first child was not planned. Had I stayed in my first turboprop job I can guarantee I would have been divorced by now; I did full time instructing before the commitments arrived in life. In-fact that was my error, trying to do the instructor-turbo prop route because the low pay associated with that route is what made it unsustainable. Had I funded a jet type rating just after training then the chances are
by the time commitments arrived in life I would have been making a decent income so could have stayed flying. I have remained part time instructing and still normally get a couple of interviews each year but most rarely offer something that is sustainable.

I have travelled to Asia for interviews, I could go on, so don't think I haven't sacrificed things in life. I would have been on the property ladder ten years earlier had I not done the fATPL, so please don't insinuate that I haven't made sacrifices.
Also I wasn't prepared to see my wife and daughter live the early years in some dingy town centre flat (which the rent alone was over 50% of my FO take home pay) where a lot of the other flats were occupied by DHSS types while I was stuck down route.

A320baby, please could you explain how you juggled a child with all this, you mentioned you lived at home while doing the training? And you were in Poland for four years?

Did your partner and the son live with you in Poland? Again not all of us have partners that are understanding and are prepared to follow where the flying work is.

So the overall message here is funding a jet rating would have been the better route than FI-turboprop. In summary all your post reads as is, I lived at home to save money and got a job by funding an A320 rating; there is a lot of credibility what you have achieved but it is also far from the most onerous route that many have taken into aviation.

[Poose]

Portsharbour,

Some of us still aren't on the property ladder and have ended up with absolutely nothing, well into our mid thirties - all because of flying.

With all due respect and it's not an attack on you, but I just tire of how patronising people with children can be at times. I don't believe in 'unplanned' children either...
I've seen that card played by the opposite sex too many times.

I'm sure you've put a lot into this, I don't doubt that. Never questioned it.
But don't think that the single lads have it easy. Some of us have given up everything and are gutted at some of the relationships that have not been pursued or fell by the wayside in order to finally get that flying job. Only now, starting life at a snails pace on meagre turboprop wages while your friends are all a decade ahead of you in life.
That gets you down at times.

Not attacking you, just telling an other side of the tale.
It's very hard being a parent while doing this, I hear that. But it can be just as hard on other people, albeit in different ways.

[portsharbourflyer]

Poose, I have no wish to start any arguments and normally I prefer to keep my posts more constructive and less personal; but it still stands when you get invited to an interview in South Africa or some far away place it is more readily achievable if you are single.

While the job done (scaffolder) to raise the money was a physically demanding difficult job which deserves a lot of credit in itself; when a post is entitled this is "how I did it this is how you can do it", I was expecting to read some story about a hangar rat working his way up through working at flying clubs, doing air taxi, night freight in 1950s turboprops then to an airliner. But when the overall jist of the story is someone living at home with the parents, saved money and paid for a type rating it is a touch watered down in my opinion.

But I suppose it has shown a route than can work if you are under 24 and can stick living with the parents.

[portsharbourflyer]

Push button, every single A320 pilot is using some of my work every single day, so please do refrain from making puerile comments when you know nothing about my background.

Further you are based in the US from your profile; the 1500 rule in place means 200 hour pilots are not allowed to undertake part 25 type ratings, so in the US the route taken by the original poster would not have been possible under current rules. So I don't feel a US based poster has much right to comment on something in EASA land.

Pushbutton; the point I am trying to make is a lot of people do not have the luxury to live at home while undertaking modular pilot training; over a 18 month period the additional cost of living along side training in the UK would easily amount to 10000 pounds plus; not to mention not living at home previous to this would also limit the ability to save. The title of the post was this "How you can do it", while a good percentage of those reading are in the 16 to 22 age bracket and there are also a number of late twenties / early thirties even forties career changers who read this and the described route by the original poster would hold little relevance.

If you are at the pinnacle of this profession one would have thought you could have presented a more rational coherent argument rather than simple insults.

[portsharbourflyer]

Push button;

I have good reasons to take a negative vibe on this post? This original post actually represents quite a few negative aspects of the industry.

You are aware of the Air France Incident aren't you? A contributory cause of that incident was the fact the two pilots up front despite having lots of hours essentially went form ab intio training straight to an Airbus with little experience of flying anything else. The fact a lot of cadets are now training on twin stars means they are no longer acquiring traditional instrument flying skills; so no I will not positively endorse any one who goes from a Twin Star straight to an Airbus without attempting to build some alternative flying experience.

Our poster has a lot of experience flying an Airbus but has little experience of flying anything that is challenging and demanding.

As far as I am concerned every twin star trained cadet going to an Airbus is increasing the probability of another Air France incident.


Everyone on this forum a few years back use to flame anyone who did a self sponsored type rating; all the experienced pilots use to say, go instruct, go fly turbo-props don't pay for a type. As said I don't disapprove of SSTR as such, but neither should anyone who has entered the industry by such a route really be praised or celebrated.

The original poster has merely gone through a system available to him and there is a lot of credit due. But at the same time the inference of this post is encouraging and telling wannabes to just go and pay for an A320 type rating. So push is this really want you want to encourage and endorse.

Are you aware of the harm Self Sponsored type ratings have done to the industry?

Firstly the poster obtained his first job by paying for a type rating? That is what wizz air do,they run SSTR schemes. I don't object to people paying for type ratings but irrespective of the how the money was obtained it means the job was not obtained on merit or experience but merely on the ability to pay for rating.

But the consequence of the proliferation of SSTR schemes means a lot of instructors
and experienced turbo-prop pilots have been unable to move on while Airlines have elected instead to employ low hours candidates through self sponsored training schemes.


Secondly people training on a twin star and transferring straight to an airbus means they will have never have done any flying that develops actual raw flying skill.

A lot will say that with modern airliners traditional skills are irrelevant; well look at the Air France incident.

Push tell me when your family is in the back of an Airliner and the systems kick out please tell me who you want up front, Chelsey Sullenburger some one with experience; who are you happy to have a couple of people who just paid there way into the industry and have never actually experience flying anything more than a twinstar and an airbus.

I hope EASA follows the FAA route and brings in an hours requirement for the sake of future flight safety.


I am not been negative out of personal bitterness I am talking on behalf of a lot of other instructors and turbo prop pilots that have attempted to build experience, develop, learn the trade and who haven't just paid their way into the industry.

[portsharbourflyer]

Having trouble with the edit function, so please excuse the odd grammar error above.

[portsharbourflyer]

"Instrument rating: duration 5 weeks. This was the course everyone feared, in fact I throughly enjoyed the IR, I seemed to gel with the instrument flying. Majority was flown in the DA42 and the DA42 sim. Passed first time"

You did your initial IR on a twinstar: Go back do the IR in an analogue Seneca 1; then tell me you gelled with instrument flying. Then you will realise why people dreaded the IR course. The above shows this Twin Star to Airbus generation has no comprehension of the limitations of the training route they have followed.

This is what concerns me.


Certainly do not want some one who isn't aware of his limitations up front. This is the exact reason why I have concerns for the Twinstar to Airbus generation.

[portsharbourflyer]

The training regime you have suggested your children will go through sounds excellent and it is that kind of training route that needs to be encouraged.

Agreed the Airbus side-stick was also a major factor in the Air-france incident. But I do still feel that had the two pilots involved had an instructional background (where they would have been teaching stalling frequently) the out-come would have been different. I know it is easy to sit here on the ground and criticise an incident and one can never tell how I would have reacted personally in that situation, but ever more systems reliability and procedures seem to potentially compensate for lack of basics.

Glad to hear procedure have been changed, but surely unreliable airspeed is back to basics, set power, set attitude.

Push button, it was not my intention to argue with you or discredit A320B; but I don't feel that any more 200 hours straight to Airbus is a something that the industry needs.

[magicmick]

The kind of training regime that pushbuttonignored has got line up for his kids is truly exceptional. His kids are truly fortunate, sadly not everyone is fortunate to have a father who owns an aircraft, instructs them and has contacts who can hook them up with employment right up to jet work. Any of us would do the same for our kids if we were in that situation, I am sure push has ensured that his kids are well balanced and appreciate their privileged situation. I wish them luck as they develop into professional and competent crew.

[P40Warhawk]

Sorry to jump in , but at Portsharbor.

You can state that we need in EASA land also a 1500 rule? Now good luck with that. There is already a huge lack of pilots in USA for the Airline business.

Myself I would have loved to start to do some instructing or a TP job. But only now the market is opening.
I am also of the opinion that it is better for general skills to start small and improve your basic flying skills on small TP's, but there is a big difference of Aviation in EU and USA.

In USA you have quiet many Air Taxi's, Crop dusting etc. Such we dont have here in EU. So how should you get 1500 hrs then?
Instructing jobs are also extremely scarce . Which means there will be not enough pilots trained and not enough FI's.

Just my way of thinking.

Again, I was also willing to start with small stuff. I dont feel to good for such jobs. I would have loved it, but such jobs are not so much available.

I tried to apply for Sky Diving Dropping jobs, but to do rating on Pilatus you had to pay 8K and you need at least 500 hours tt.

[portsharbourflyer]

P40, I can only answer your question from a UK perspective, so a lot of what I say may not be that applicable for you based in Germany.

I wouldn't suggest the requirement would be as high as 1500 hours but I would like to see a return to the Pre-JAA 2000, CAA self improver requirement of 700 hours total time to hold a full CPL. So yes there was actually an hour requirement here in the UK before JAA was introduced.

Before JAA was implemented there were two ways to gain a UK CAA CPL and frozen ATPL. Attending a CAP4XX course (which we would now call an Integrated course, cant remember what the number was CAP413?, CAP403?) or the self improver route, the self improver route involved gaining a Basic Commercial Pilots License at 150 hours. This allowed you to be paid to fly single engine aircraft, so on that people did instructors ratings, went para dropping, glider tugging, aerial photography or scenic flights, once 700 hours was obtained the BCPL was upgraded to a CPL. The CAP4 courses were pretty much only the reserve of pre-selected Airline sponsored or part sponsored cadets. Oxford and BAE Flight training (the pre-cursor to FTE) didn't market to private individuals at that point; some people did still self fund through these full time courses but it was a minority.

While some will argue day VFR hour building has little relevance to Airline style flying, I would to an extent agree, but the hours requirement does the following

1) In the US it has created a shortage, consequently First Officer pay and conditions in the Regionals has improved. So that isn't a bad thing.

2) It means pilots get the basic skills engrained (those skills are often the base line core skills that stop people holding an airliner in a stall all the way to the ground)

3) It weeds out those that just want to be airline pilots and have little passion or enthusiasm for flying

4) It creates a buffer in the system

5) It actually ensures you also have a steady stream of instructors to support the training industry.

6) If the hour requirement was applied to all irrespective of the route (modular or integrated) the integrated course would cease to exist.

7) It stops people just buying them-selves into the industry (OK those wealthy enough will just hire the hours, but at least they are still gaining basic level "raw" flying experience).

8) If airlines have to wait for candidates to gain hours then you will see a reduction in the SSTR schemes.

9) All the current instructors will get employed first by the airlines and the twin star zero to heros from CTC will have to actually go and fly something before becoming an A320 operator.

P40, in the UK in the last 12 months there has been a large demand for instructors, in-fact we are even seeing instructor jobs offering salaries not just flight pay. Partly because finally after years of stagnation some instructors are moving to other things. As more candidates seem to be opting for the CTC route for training and / or opting for the SSTR route then there are less frozen ATPLS going into instructing.

Operators charging 8k for Pilatus ratings are also anther thing that has promoted or encouraged people to opt for SSTRs on 737 or A320s; so yes I do sympathise for your predicament.


But while the FAA has introduced the 1500 hour requirement; EASA land has gone the other way, the new MPL route now means new FOs may only have 40 hours of actual flight time.

[KayPam]

And what do these MPL (or twin star to airbus) pilots do ?
They retract the flaps instead of the gear on takeoff :
Incident: Easyjet A319 at Bristol on Feb 16th 2016, flaps instead gear retracted (http://avherald.com/h?article=494cad37)
They enter into alpha floor because they think pulling up with no power will increase their speed :
Incident: Easyjet A320 at Paphos on Jan 7th 2015, Alpha Floor Activation on approach (http://avherald.com/h?article=4835e8f2)
They don't flare and bang their aircraft on the ground :
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5422f3ca40f0b613460004f5/Airbus_A320__G-DHJZ_12-08.pdf

What is very very contradictory is that I myself would very much like to be an Airbus pilot with 250 hours of piston, and I am wondering how to avoid doing mistakes such as the above with this little experience.

[TowerDog]

Aye OP, been there done that.
I was not from a glamorous background either, never finished elementary or high school, got bored and frustrated, dropped out.
Sailed on Merchant ships and drove taxi cabs, got bored with that too.
Bought into a US flight school at at age 21 and got my CPL, IR and MEL in 1978.
DC-3 Captain 8 years later in St. Thomas, B-747 FO 2 years after that and B-747 Captain 1996.
Then on to a major airline in the US.
Long story but all doable. Never went to schools, English not the native language.
Hard work, good attitude and more hard work will do it.
Don't ever give up kids, you will get the god life and the good jobs if you really, really want it.

[Alex Whittingham]

The problem with the 'flight instruction to 1500 hours" idea is that is pryamidical. Suppose graduate 'A" has 200 hours, and needs 1300 more. He/she has to train 6.5 new pilots to make his hours, those 6.5 new pilots need 42.25 more, and on it goes. Its a ponzi concept. It won't work without a thriving GA industry where sub-1500 hour pilots can do air taxi work etc. as an alternative to flight instruction. That doesn't exist any more.

[Poose]

Portsharbour,

I wasn't having a go at you, I was just showing you the other side of the coin. I understand what you're saying, having a family in tow limits many options.

Anyhow, I think we've spoke before on PM and I hope you're well, as I know you to be a first rate bloke.

I'd like to see you flying again soon, if you're not already.

Good points you've raised on here. 😊👍🏻

[TowerDog]

TowerDog. I once couldn't get on a Eastern Metro Twin Otter from St Thomas to San Juan as they were all full. So I went over to the cargo side of the airport where I talked to Five Star DC-3 pilots who gave me and my girlfriend a lift to San Juan. At about 50 ft the co-pilot got out of his seat, and I flew it to San Juan and did the landing on runway 10. Wasn't by any chance you was it?

Ha, not me.
I did however fly for Eastern Metro Express on the Twin Otter from 10-86 to 2-88.
Flew DC-3s early 1986 for Aero Virgin Island and for Virgin Island International Airways in 1985.
Also flew for Virgin Air in 1985. (Branson bought out the name to avoid confusion, then they became Air St. Thomas, or St. Thomas Air.)
I knew the guys at Four Star, but did not work there, my ex did..

4 years in the islands flying often 100 hours a month and living on a sailboat. Good life.

[portsharbourflyer]

Alex, as mentioned and I suspect you would know better than me; the old CAA route had a 700 hour requirement; that seemed to work well enough; though GA is shrinking is this country it is still vibrant enough to support a 700 hour requirement. I think the benefits of the re-introduction are evident. Also as Push Button mentioned if people don't want to instruct you could still fly the hours in some LAA tail-dragger over four years or so for the same price as a type rating.

Poose, no offence taken, discussions are about presenting the alternate argument; I have little desire to fly for an airline again, my career is taking a much more interesting direction. I am currently occupied by a role associated with managing the air-worthiness of an entire fleet of biz jets (trying to vague to retain anonymity).


That said I do want those that are flying in the airlines to have the background and experience that Towerdog and Button Push Ignored have shown.

I don't like the way the airline industry is moving, at least in the last 10 years the twin star to A320 brigade were flying with Captains from the Towerdog and Push Button Ignored generation. So at least there is a degree of experience transfer. But now we are seeing a point where the twin star generation are getting promoted to Captain; subsequently the twin-star generation are now training the twin star generation.

So even worse there will be the twin-star generation Captain flying with an FO from the MPL route; so two experts Airbus operators who will have little in the way of actual raw flying experience.

The FAA have addressed the issue with the 1500 rule; I would advocate a 700 rule for Europe.
While the original poster had good intentions to show you can achieve something from nothing; to me it highlights all the aspects that are wrong with the current system.

A few years back I didn't object to the SSTR route, and people will find past posts of mine where I said it was justified as it by-passed the low pay of instructing and turbo-prop flying. Since the Air France incident I have changed my mind on this, I believe everyone should get a good GA grounding first.

[paco]

BPI - motivation is the key. Our two favourite students were fishermen, who told us that they were hard workers. Well, they were right. The lowest mark between them was 93%, and they even got their ship's master to teach them spherical trig in the evenings after the fishing was done (if you thought the ATPL was bad, try a first mate's exam!).

Anyhow, one of them is flying, the other simply ran out of money otherwise I'm sure he would have made it too.

The moral of the story is that, if those guys can do it, nobody else has an excuse for not doing the work.

Neil Sedaka always said that there were plenty of people who could sing and play the piano much better than him, but they didn't have the ambition. So true.

[SeventhHeaven]

All this fluffy motivational talk is quite honestly making me depressed.

Just keep on trying they said, it's all about timing they said. You simply need to have the drive and motivation. Take anything you can and work your way up!

Reality has been an eye opener.. Maybe I should make a thread titled 'how I didn't do it' to balance this out. Just so all the wannabes can take their rose tinted glasses off for a moment.

Contacts meant nothing, grades meant nothing, flight records meant nothing, speaking multiple languages meant nothing, degrees meant nothing. It really is all about the money or just plain luck/timing. Sadly, I've run out of both. Now, in my early thirties, I've started to realise just how much the financial burden will affect my entire life.

It ain't all roses and sunshine lads.

Best of luck to those still willing to gamble it all. Just realise a not insignificant nr of cpl holders will rue the decision, and It can always be you!

[TowerDog]

. Kids.
Tower Dogs story is fascinating, and you should listen.

Non English as a primary language, so I'm guessing Puerto Rican.

Not even close: Norwegian:)

Went from the DC-3s in the Caribbean to DC-8s for Evergreen on an Air India Cargo contract as an F/O.
To say I was busy in the simulator would be an understatement, no jet time, no sim time, just sink or swim punk, you get no extra sim or training around here. Squeezed by and 220 hrs later on the DC-8-73, they offered me the B-747 F/O slot being the most junior F/O in the company: UPS started hiring Evergreen guys and every F/O senior to me refused to sign the B-747 training contract as they were hoping for UPS, hence the Chief Pilot called me and asked if I would consider coming over to the 747 fleet?
I was not going in that direction and happily signed the contract and got the training.
6 months later Evergreen sent me the contract back and I was no longer on the hook to pay back $$ in case I quit.
(Never paid a time, just promised to stay on for a couple of years, would have stayed anyways)
Never boring in the flying business..

Guess my point is that hard work pays off, so does luck, and a talent for flying. (Aptitude they call it these days)
Never knew I had talent or not, I was just hanging on with my fingernails.
Advise to young guys starting out: Work hard, then harder and don't get married and start cranking out babies, that will restrict restrict you moving around chasing jobs and will put a huge pressure on finances
as newbie flying jobs don't pay much unless you get on with major lifetime, high paying gig like Fed-Ex, Delta or similar.
Entry level jobs are hard work and low pay: Before my Twin Otter and DC-3 gigs in the islands I hauled single engine bush planes in Alaska summer and winter living in an Eskimo town on the tundra using a honey bucket for a toilet. Can't go there with wife and kids, divorce will happen after 2 weeks:(

[TowerDog]

No, not Ron Straus, but the name rings a bell.
I got the call August or September 1988 about the B-747, the CP was an ex Coast Guard guy, Bob something..?
Evergreen was a good gig, they pulled me out of the DC-3s and gave me a shot at heavy jets, no college degree, no nothing except a clean resume with some stick and rudder time and a burning desire to fly big stuff.
Evergreen after 3 years led me to the Middle East on more 747-200s in the right seat, then Tower Air in 1994 with a quick upgrade to Captain, 747-100/200 after 18 months on the property.
Did that until they went tits up, then AA called for some reason.
Flew B-757/767 there until furloughed after 9/11.
Spent a year doing boats as a Yacht Captain in South Florida, then Tradewinds Airlines offers a job in the left seat of yet another 747-200 with a quick promotion to Check Airman.
Did that gig for 3 years, then AA called me back.
About that time Bush signed into law age 65, then a few years later AA filed for BK. Then we merged with US Air, then got a pay rise, then I got bored and took early retirement.
Got me a boat and started a little charter business running little old ladies up and down the canals and rivers in Fort Lauderdale while drinking beer on days off, and buying, fixing up, renting out and selling condos and day trading stocks
With spare cash.
Never boring in the flying business.
You young guys listening?
Be flexible, work hard and be prepared for the worst.
No college or high school required.

[TowerDog]

Aye, indeed I had no formal college degree, but I bought one on the internet for $800.
Based on Life Experience of course.
When I interviewed with AA I was honest and said it was not accredited.
Not a problem, check that box, are you married, do you mind commuting, let's look at your license and medical?
That was HR.
Next was the interview with a bunch of Captains and Check Airmen.
Some tech questions, some situations questions, logbook under the microscope before I got called into the room, 12-15 letters of recommendation, FAA records, a joke or two, good vibes.
Medical next with psycho testing on computers and a doc reading the printout: Turned out he was really into sailing and diving and so was I: We swapped stories on those subjects until closing time as I was the last guy that day.
When I got up to leave I asked how my testing came out? He glanced at the print out and said fine..
Overall a very psotive experience, no sh!t because they hired me.
I think they looked more at ratings and time as well as personality than some college degree although I was the ultimate non-sced cargo/bush pilot kind of guy but they were looking to fill seats with bodies who could run an airplane safely from A to B rather than a Gucci guy with a PHd in liberal arts.
I enjoyed AA, lots of super good guys but with the usual 5% aresholes.
Most guys were also sharp as a tack when it came to flying stuff and book knowledge.
A few were weak and once or twice I saved the day as an FO, but same with all airlines.
Overall a great place to work, but with a bunch of heavy PIC time behind me I got bored with the long time to upgrade and lost interest after 11 years in the right seat.

[Modular Halil]

Good morning wannabes,

As the aviation industry is starting to boom I thought it appropriate to write a short blog on how I got into aviation, so people like myself, with not so privileged backgrounds can get into aviation with hard work and dedication!

Like most from a very early age I had a massive obsession with aircraft, I was totally mesmerised about aviation, at every opportunity I was either looking up at the sky looking or reading about planes, I knew where my future career lay!

I was lucky enough to start and obtain my PPL at the age of 17.

During my school days, I was never the brightest kid in my class in fact far from it, I struggled my maths, I remember quite clearly my career advisor telling me to think about another career path because being a pilot was so far out of my reach! (How wrong could one be!!) that being said I left school at the age of 16 with not one GCSE above the C grade.

*disclaimer: The school did not fail me, I failed myself and I learnt the hard way.

So with my aviation dream in tatters off I went and got a job scaffolding (which I still dabble in today) very soon I realised that this is not the career I want to spend the rest of my life doing, so I had to make a plan. I calculated that if I save my salary for 4 years, with family help I can fund a modular aviation course, this is exactly what I did! In the mean time I was attending night school retaking my flunked GCSE in math and English to which I passed with very high grades!

At the age of 20 I finally had enough money saved to fund my training and survive not working for two years, I embarked on ATPL in house course (14 written exams) at London metropolitan university. I studied here full time for about 6-8 months, even tho hard work and lots of studying I made some fantastic friends and had so much fun! Out of the 14 exams, I passed 12 first time and had to retake POF and perf which I passed second time round. Not bad for a lad that left school with no GCSE's

Once the ATPLs was completed I went straight to stapleford flight centre for my hour building and commercial IR. I cannot fault stapleford, it's by far one of the best flight training organisations out there and I would recommend to anyone!!

Hour building: duration about 4 weeks flying a 152 up and down the country, I spent most of this time brushing up on my nav exercises which I knew I would need once the commencement of my CPL. Please please please make sure you have fun when doing the hour building as it's pretty much stress free.

Commercial pilots licence: duration 18 days, this was by far my favourite course. My instructor was fantastic majority of flying was done in the piper arrow, passed first time. The nav exercises during my hour building really paid dividends.

Instrument rating: duration 5 weeks. This was the course everyone feared, in fact I throughly enjoyed the IR, I seemed to gel with the instrument flying. Majority was flown in the DA42 and the DA42 sim. Passed first time.

MCC and JOC was done at OAA duration 5 days. Was a good introduction to working as a crew in an airline environment.

If you want me to elaborate any part of my blog please feel free to send me a PM!

In total I paid around £55,000 for a frozen ATPL modular at stapleford.

A few weeks after I completed my training, I was sending hundreds if not thousands of CV's to every single operator you could think of. Finally Ryanair contacted me and Invited me for an interview, I paid the 300 quid for the pleasure and after a week I was told I didn't make the grade. I was shocked and gutted by determined not to let it deter me!

Over the next year, I continued to make contacts in the industry, had a part time job at ipilot (fixed base 737 simulator company) and back scaffolding full time.

Finally an opportunity arose for Wizz air, I managed to pass the interview and spent 4 years flying the 320 based in Gdnask Poland. Wizz is the perfect company to start your career, flying lots, hard winters and difficult destinations, it's the ideal place to learn your trade.

I must say, that prior the the Wizz interview I had interviews with 4 smaller operators lined up and that was from making contacts and networking.

Next I left Wizz to come home to the UK and work for another fantastic exciting company called Air tanker flying the Airbus 330. This was a new and exciting place to work flying to worldwide destinations including the Falklands via Ascension Island. I spent about 15 months in air tanker before an amazing opportunity arose to fly for another long haul operator based at LHR to which I fly for to this day, I won't mention the name but put it this way, my favourite colour is red.

On my days off I do consultancy work for CTC teaching Airbus ground school to cadets, another job I obtained through networking.

All in all I've been flying commercially now for 6 years and I very happy with what I have achieved at the age of 28.

Please free free to message me any questions and for those who want to follow me on Instagram: gym_aviator

Good luck


hey i pm'ed you and i saw you tiredto pm me back but it says my inbox is full but theres nothing in there can i contacted you elsewhere ?