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View Full Version : Earth calling Air BP: Radio Check


Clinton McKenzie
9th Nov 2016, 08:11
I suspect others may find themselves in, or have already been thrown into, a frustrating situation that I'm guessing has been caused by BP allowing its bright-eyed bean-counters to implement an idea that's good in theory but disconnected with practical reality.

The story so far...

Aerorefuellers in Albury has for some time been providing the service of arranging for the issue of various brand Carnet cards for aircraft owners. People could make a single application to Aerorefuellers and Aerorefuellers obtained and passed on Air BP, Mobil, Shell and Aerorefuellers' own Carnet cards. I've been using these cards for years, and Aerorefuellers issues one invoice and you make one payment per month, irrespective of the mix of brands of fuel you purchase. Aerorefuellers pays the individual fuel companies. (And let me record, publicly, my thanks for Aerorefuellers' service. I should also declare that I have no direct or indirect pecuniary interest in Aerorefuellers.)

Then Shell bailed out of issuing Carnet cards for all the 'little-end-of-town' transactions. However, that isn't a problem operationally, because Shell bowsers now accept normal credit cards. (Thank you Shell for a practical solution.)

Then Aerorefuellers recently wrote to its customers to say that Air BP was no longer prepared to issue Carnet cards through Aerorefuellers, and owners now have to apply direct to Air BP.

Application submitted accordingly.

Letter received from BP this week: Please arrange for a $10,000 bank guarantee in favour of Air BP.

After I stopped laughing, I called the number specified in the letter, in response to the invitation: "please do not hesitate to contact the undersigned". There was no signature, but rather the typed words "Credit Services". I guessed that that was not a person's name, unless s/he was fortuitously christened with a very unusual name that matched his/her eventual vocation. The usual telephone menus, confused telephonist and music on hold for protracted periods ensued, but I was eventually put through to an earnest youngster whom I assume works in BP's "Credit Services".

The youngster provided a very accurate explanation of how credit assessments are done and why a bank guarantee might be required. I explained that I knew all of that, and that I guessed the family company that owns the aircraft and in whose name the application was made in my case has no credit history or rating, because it's never borrowed money. All of its bills have been paid with its own money.

Yep. That would be it. A company that only pays with its own cash would typically be required to provide a bank guarantee.

I asked: You do realise that there has been an Air BP Carnet card issued to the company for the aircraft for years, and that the bills for that card have always been paid, don't you?

Answer: Yes, but Aerorefuellers have been paying BP's bill, not your company.

Touché.

Riposte?

Me: So you think Aeroefuellers would simply keep paying BP's bills for fuel purchased on that card, year after year, if Aerorefuellers' bills to my company weren't being paid? Maybe Aerorefuellers would have taken action to cancel the card if the company hadn't been paying reliably?

Youngster: Errrrmmm.

I asked: Do you really think that I'm going to arrange for a $10,000 bank guarantee in BP's favour, to get a card to buy a few thousand dollars worth of BP fuel each year? Do you understand the implications for all the people in similar circumstances?

You can guess the answer: That's the requirement.

I felt like suggesting that BP should require mortgages of real property as well, to hedge the risk of the guarantor bank failing. However, I restrained myself because there was a risk of the youngster getting a bright idea.

I also asked, though I also said I anticipated the answer would be "don't know": Do you know if BP bowsers will be modified to take normal credit cards?

The answer was as anticipated.

**Big sigh**

There is nothing wrong with BP confirming the creditworthiness of the persons to whom BP issues Carnet cards. It's just ordinary, prudent business risk mitigation. But in this case there was a very simple and practical way to achieve that outcome in respect of holders of cards issued through Aerorefuellers: Just ask the holders for consent to Aerorefuellers disclosing the details of its transactions with the holders. Or BP could just make the reasonable assumption that the holders of cards issued through Aerorefuellers had been paying their bills, otherwise Aerorefuellers would have taken action to cancel the cards.

Or BP could simply ditch Carnet cards for the little-end-of-town and instal credit card payment facilities on its bowsers. It is evidently technically and commercially possible and practical.

I have compiled a list of aerodromes that my friends and I often visit where the only fuel bowsers are BP's, in anticipation of not going there any more. I wonder whether BP has any insight into what effect this could have on the local economy of those places if lots of others do the same thing. Would BP would even care?

For instance, I will miss the relaxing lunches in that nice cafe run by the nice ladies in the Broken Hill terminal, and I anticipate they will miss our business. I could pay Ross, the local refueller, by credit card to fill the aircraft, but I'm not prepared to pay the 20c per litre surcharge for the privilege. A nostalgic wave as we overly will be the more likely choice, because my home base to YLEC is a comfortable hop, with a 24/7 credit card bowser at both ends (though it would be nice to have DF back at YLEC!). Or maybe this is just part of the death throes of traditional GA and I'm a nobody at the margins. *shrug*

Here's hoping that BP bowsers will be modified to accept normal credit cards. However, given that BP's decisions so far seem to me to be disconnected from practical reality, I'm not going to hold my breath.

Radio Check Air BP: Please contact planet Earth.

Duck Pilot
9th Nov 2016, 08:28
I thought you only bought your fuel at Temora Clinton!!!!!!!!

Assume they are still price gouging at the bowser in CB.

Clinton McKenzie
9th Nov 2016, 08:31
I haven't purchased fuel at Canberra for years, at least not in quantities more than topping off. (You probably meant "gouging"?)

peterc005
9th Nov 2016, 08:43
Air BP are actually ok to deal with, but they are really tight with credit management. Guess with the history of GA business failures it's probably good business sense.

Looked at my credit history file recently and saw that Air BP have been querying my credit history every month for about eight years. Looking for problems I guess, although I've never seen this done before and it must cost them a fortune.

Once years ago they asked for a personal guarantee from me. I just phoned up and had a whinge, they then said it's ok and don't worry.

Squawk7700
9th Nov 2016, 08:48
I have a Tysons card (monthly credit account) for Mobil and BP. It works well, they are happy to give you credit and the higher spend you write on the initial application, the better. I've had one for well over 10 years and never had an issue with them. Thumbs up for Tysons (Essendon and Moorabbin, but works Aus wide of course).

Clinton McKenzie
9th Nov 2016, 08:55
There is no technical or practical impediment to fitting standard credit/debit card technology to all bowsers.

Band a Lot
9th Nov 2016, 09:19
To fit a credit card system to a bowser will cost +$30,000 and require a internet/phone link at a monthly cost.

Also the surcharge will need to be passed on @.5-3%.


Expect to replace bowser and card reader every 10 years at most.

Clinton McKenzie
9th Nov 2016, 09:32
Oh no!

And your point is (even if those numbers are correct)?

B772
9th Nov 2016, 09:59
Clinton

If you only use a few thousand dollars of BP fuel each year deposit say $1,000 with BP. At the end of each month pay them for fuel used during the month. You may even get a discount or velocity points.

Clinton McKenzie
9th Nov 2016, 10:28
Are you making that offer on behalf of BP, B772?

In any event, I choose for my company not to deposit any money with BP. My choice is for my company to pay for stuff as and when it is purchased.

It is of course open to BP not to authorise sale of BP AVGAS except in circumstances determined by BP. But it is also open to potential purchasers to decide not to purchase.

CHAIRMAN
9th Nov 2016, 10:51
Are BP kidding?
I've had a BP carnet for over 20 years - automatically swipes every month.
No bank guarantee in place, it works fine but really old school.
Aerodromes were divided up for fuel service many years ago so smaller aerodromes are now only serviced by one company when there used to be two or more.
I've often wondered when I can go to Coles on Sunday and swipe my AMEX for a loaf of bread that BP and probably others can't get with the program.

gerry111
9th Nov 2016, 11:14
Shell previously decided that recreational GA AVGAS carnet cards weren't in their best financial/profit interests. Fair enough, as that's their call. But at least, they ensured that their bowsers accepted popular credit cards.

(I can pay for AVGAS with my credit card at places like YBKE and YCBP.)

So why can't Air BP simply do the same thing? And particularly at an important monopoly hub such as YBHI? :ugh:

Duck Pilot
9th Nov 2016, 11:22
I really meant ripping Canberra GA aviators off Clinton! Like the parking and hangar fees at CB and the absolutely dismal facilities allocated to the CAC, at an absorbent price.

gerry111
9th Nov 2016, 11:36
Duck Pilot,

I've heard a rumour somewhere that Clinton McKenzie may have finally got fed up with the gouging of the Canberra Airport owner.

So perhaps he's relocated elsewhere? :ok:

Band a Lot
9th Nov 2016, 12:00
"And your point is (even if those numbers are correct)?"

Well I recently sold my share of a aviation fuel company, so belive them or not!


If me I'd say just buy sealed drums and pump your own mate, your 2K is not worth my time (that's why I started own fuel company - you can too).

Clinton McKenzie
9th Nov 2016, 19:37
You missed my point, BAL.

Let's take your numbers as correct. So what? The numbers seem to work for Shell and other suppliers, who will now get more of my business. I haven't been buying fuel from BP alone and I don't need to set up my own fuel company.

(And Duck: The "absorbent price" has to be charged to cover the costs of toilet paper and hand towels in the Gate 3 facility. You really should get and use a dictionary.)

ACMS
9th Nov 2016, 21:41
Oh I dunno, maybe he really meant to say absorbent because they money gets absorbed, swallowed up, like a sponge....

Jabawocky
9th Nov 2016, 22:04
BP are THE MOST arrogant people to deal with and the AirBP mob are the high achievers of the group.

Between Mrs jab and myself we managed accounts with them that were 6-7 figure sums and in her case add a couple of zero's. Caltex were far better and surprisingly different.

Aerorefuellers is now owned by K&S freighters from Mt Gambier. Andrew Heath sold it recently and still works there. I know for a while BP for them was a PITA and they lost money on providing that service (not broke even, lost) so they might be better off for it.

I would like to see more AR outlets and less of the BP/Shell ones. Just on principal.

Snakecharma
9th Nov 2016, 22:29
Didn't world fuel services buy the Australian operations of one of the refuelling mobs?

Sunfish
10th Nov 2016, 19:05
One word: Mogas.

djpil
10th Nov 2016, 22:00
I've also been a happy customer of AeroRefuellers for many years so I guess that I will get a similar letter from BP.

A pity that the local BP supplier at Moorabbin will lose business as a result. Colin really looks after our aircraft unlike some other truck drivers.

Pilotette
10th Nov 2016, 23:58
Thanks for the entertaining post Clinton, despite the subject being extremely frustrating! As a fellow Albury Aerorefuellers customer I agree that they do a great job in offering the multi card service, pity Air BP can't be team players. For worst case scenarios I still have an Air BP card tacked to my ex-employers account and he doesn't request a $10,000 guarantee, thanks TW ;)

Clinton McKenzie
11th Nov 2016, 09:10
For worst case scenarios I still have an Air BP card tacked to my ex-employers account and he doesn't request a $10,000 garauntee, thanks TW.Ha! TW's Aerostar's probably on the line for that $10,000. Make sure you use that Air BP card wisely (and, as always, fly safely) Pilotette.

kaz3g
17th Nov 2016, 09:45
Well I got stung today, too.

I fuelled at YBKE at first light this morning and headed to Broken Hill. Swiped my card and "Invalid".

Fortunately, the tanker driver was there and he swiped his carnet and I paid him from my Visa...with a 20 cents per litre loading for the trouble...and I continued on to Renmark.

I phoned Aerorefuellers...they are unable to distribute BP cards as mentioned above.

I emailed Matt Smale at BP and he replied stating that Skyfuel is able to supply their cards. I told him I would refuel at Kerang on the way home to Shepp instead of Swan Hill because my Aerorefuellers supplied Mobil carnet works fine.

Kaz

Clinton McKenzie
17th Nov 2016, 10:20
It's so frustratingly unnecessary, Kaz.

I worry about:

- the costs to pilots who have no choice but to upload fuel at YBHI, and

- the value of the business lost to local businesses as a consequence of pilots who have the choice of avoiding the place.

gerry111
17th Nov 2016, 13:40
I reckon that there's another issue that this lack of Air BP carnet access may influence.

Perhaps safety?

For some inexperienced VFR's pressing on to know that there's an available Shell or other service provider on the other side of all that clag?

kaz3g may have refuelled at YBKE from the Shell bowser there that takes popular credit cards.

Arriving at YBHI, it isn't now quite that simple, as she relates.

I've been going flying with a VFR mate for over 30 years. (And he sure isn't a risk taker.) But I'm currently exploring a carnet with Air BP. Apparently that will entail me permanently without access to $10,000 of my credit card limit.

Just so that I can access AIR BP at places like YBHI. :*

Squawk7700
18th Nov 2016, 08:48
I got an email today from Tysons Refuelling of Essendon and Moorabbin, telling me that my BP card has been cancelled through no fault of theirs.

My Mobil card remains valid with them.

Pinky the pilot
18th Nov 2016, 09:10
I paid him from my Visa...with a 20 cents per litre loading for the trouble..

There is a part of me that thinks that having such a 'surcharge' is not only usurious, but illegal!!

Might be worth enquiring further.

gerry111
18th Nov 2016, 09:34
Pinky,

GA is all about suffering the outrages of monopolies. :sad:

Band a Lot
18th Nov 2016, 10:53
Pinky is correct.

Passed Senate Feb 2016

"issue an infringement notice including a penalty for listed corporations of up to 600 penalty units, currently $108,000 for each alleged contravention."

http://www.smh.com.au/business/consumer-affairs/excessive-card-surcharges-banned-as-senate-passes-new-legislation-20160222-gn0guk.html

Clinton McKenzie
18th Nov 2016, 19:44
BP aren't charging a surcharge for using a card other than BP's. BP are charging for Ross's time in processing a manual transaction.

At least, that's what I'd anticipate BP's argument would be.

(I should have realised you SFR types are rolling in spare cash, G111. But I reckon the 10 gorillas you'll have to put in a term deposit to 'back' the financial guarantee won't make enough to cover the costs charged by the bank to issue it! :ugh:)

kaz3g
18th Nov 2016, 20:52
Yes, I looked at the credit card surcharge question and rejected it for the same reason as suggested by Clinton.

But I wasn't charged the displayed price and that is something to be considered under the ACL.

I have already written to AOPA and NickX about the safety situation.

Kaz

rjtjrt
18th Nov 2016, 21:24
All this latter discussion about credit card surcharge is only going to make any tanker driver reluctant to help.

CaptainMidnight
19th Nov 2016, 07:52
the family company that owns the aircraft and in whose name the application was made in my case has no credit history or ratingTo me, that's BPs reason they want the guarantee - you don't have a credit history or rating.

From what I've read here, others don't have the same problem with BP because they have a credit history & rating.

I suspect we are of a similar vintage. Way back till my late 20s I used to pay cash for everything. At the time it seemed the normal thing to do, and some merchants/shops didn't have CC facilities anyway. Then my accountant told me to get a credit card and start using it to get a credit history and rating, otherwise down the track I would have problems getting a loan etc. so I got a M/C and haven't had a credit problem.

These days just about every teenager seems to have a CC, and facilities for cards are just about everywhere.

gerry111
19th Nov 2016, 11:08
I've just made an application enquiry to Air BP on their "General enquiry-Form."

"I need an Air BP carnet to buy AVGAS in Australia. I note that you now require a bank guarantee before issuing one. Would it be possible to have one in my own name connected to my personal credit card? I'd have no problem with $10,000 being frozen on this card."

Clinton, There's a big difference between what the banks are prepared to lend us SFR's, at exorbitant interest rates, and what we can afford to spend..

Clinton McKenzie
19th Nov 2016, 19:04
But CaptainMidnight: The family company does have a credit history.

It has a credit history as a consequence - ironically - of the bills it's been paying for years for the fuel purchased for the aircraft using the four fuel carnet cards issued for the aircraft by, among other suppliers, Air BP. (Three after Shell dropped out.) The Air BP card that I have in front of me has the aircraft's registration on it.

The fact that Air BP does not recognise that as a credit history suggests to me that Air BP is disconnected from reality. Or it may be as Jabba suggests.

I'll be interested to hear the response to your inquiry, GIII.

kaz3g
19th Nov 2016, 20:29
Well, I would object most strenuously to any proposal to tie up $10k on my credit card.

What's next? Origin and Telstra?

It's no skin off the tanker driver's nose because he is just complying with the company's policy and I was very glad he was there. But I will avoid BP wherever I can now, cars and aeroplane, unless they change this ridiculous policy.

Kaz

Pilotette
19th Nov 2016, 21:29
If Air BP are so worried about the credit history of their clients, why don't they introduce a prepaid carnet system? I would be more than happy to uplift dollars online that I can actually use (rather than funds that are held). Sure it would mean that we would have to be prepared and actually take time to go online and deposit funds but with all the time we've shaved off flight planning with the use of OzRunways and AvPlan we should be right, yeah? ;)

gerry111
26th Nov 2016, 09:20
After 5 working days, not a squeak out of Air BP regarding my carnet application.

gerry111
28th Nov 2016, 09:09
I refer everyone to ZAZ's thread of today on 'Australia, New Zealand and the Pacific.'

"YHML See NOTAM NO FUEL DONT COME"

Looks like Air BP may be pulling out of the AVGAS market?

Clinton McKenzie
28th Nov 2016, 09:20
The hints from Air BP are subtle, but I'm getting a gentle hint: Maybe Air BP has lost that loving feeling for GA?

kaz3g
28th Nov 2016, 09:29
BP colours gone from Bendigo...now Skyfuels swipe card.

Swan Hill was still there a week ago but how much longer?

Kaz

gerry111
12th Dec 2016, 15:08
I requested Air BP to supply me with a carnet on 19th November 2016. (I offered to give them an opportunity to freeze $10,000 on my personal credit card, so that they would be taking zero risks with me buying AVGAS from them.)

There's been no reply from them. So I really do wonder what the future of Air BP in Australia will be? YBHI is an important hub for those of us travelling outback. (Air BP has the monopoly there.) So how's that going to work, into the future?

GA is becoming just a bit too hard. But I have no intention of giving up easily.

gerry111
26th Dec 2016, 09:12
Has anyone recently bought AVGAS at YBHI from Air BP? Is a call out now required or has the bowser been fitted with credit card facilities?

Pilotette
26th Dec 2016, 09:31
BP colours gone from Bendigo...now Skyfuels swipe card.

Swan Hill was still there a week ago but how much longer?

Kaz

Swan Hill still there and Skyfuels also at Cobar now with new CC bowser as of Thursday last week.

Ozhawk
14th Dec 2017, 23:33
Any updated information on the BP and Shell card application process?
Do any of the third party card issue companies still exist, is it better option?


Any feedback appreciated. :)

kaz3g
15th Dec 2017, 09:50
Any updated information on the BP and Shell card application process?
Do any of the third party card issue companies still exist, is it better option?


Any feedback appreciated. :)

BP still at BHI in August...cost me a surcharge to use the fuel truck's card again.

Now have a BP card from Sky Fuel.

Kaz

djpil
15th Dec 2017, 10:11
Yep, painless to get BP and Worldfuel cards from Skyfuel.

Clare Prop
16th Dec 2017, 04:12
When I first applied for an account at Air BP they ran a credit check and that is how I found out a competitor was telling the credit rating agencies that they had sued me for unpaid invoices (they have never been one of my suppliers and I have never been sued) So thank you Air BP for uncovering that little gem.

Anyhoo, is anyone else having trouble with the new global portal thingy? I am now waiting for the dinosaur to deliver the paper invoices as I haven't been able to log in to the account and they just keep telling me that all the blank pages where my fuel uplift information should be are a "browser issue" It doesn't work on Internet Explorer, Google Chrome, Safari or Firefox Great! :ugh::ugh::ugh:

kaz3g
16th Dec 2017, 08:04
When I first applied for an account at Air BP they ran a credit check and that is how I found out a competitor was telling the credit rating agencies that they had sued me for unpaid invoices (they have never been one of my suppliers and I have never been sued) So thank you Air BP for uncovering that little gem.


Sounds like defamation to me, Clare...those sort of things can turn up in unexpected places.

Kaz