Why dont Avplan and Ozrunways share data

[vfive]

Had a search around here but haven't been able to find anything relating to the data feed sharing between Avplan and Ozrunways (which is currently disabled) other than a few posts from people saying it was a good idea.

When Avplan and Ozrunways first started showing traffic there was a shared feed and all traffic from both could be seen. This quickly vanished and I was told it was disabled when I enquired.

This was a brilliant safety tool and I understand there's politics involved in sharing the data between two competitors but surely this is one case where common sense should prevail over profit.

Obviously, it's technically possible and was in place for a short time. But then quickly disabled.

Currently pilots are having to flick between OzR/Avplan and PlaneFinder or others to try see their friends who may be using the other app and even then - that only works if the other planes have ADS-B which most don't.

@Ozrunways and @Avplan people - is this something likely to ever re-appear in your apps? Can you play nice and share the data to improve GA safety even further than you already have?

[rjtjrt]

It is a disgrace that they don't share traffic data.
It should be mandatory that they share safety related data, but it may take a coroner to tell get them to do so.

I can understand the commercial logic in the competitors not co-operating, but it is a low act that they don't act in the public good.

I have heard that Avplan were keen, but Ozrunways wanted to protect their advantage in a greater user base and decided to stop any connection. I have not been able to confirm that. If it is untrue please let us know why.

[27/09]

It is a disgrace that they don't share traffic data.

Hmmm, I don't see why they should have to share data. After all they're only sharing data of who that have on their system, what about the other traffic not on either system. Why don't Air Services/Airways share their data since they will see pretty well all transponder equipped traffic especially with all the new MLAT gear?

We all have to remember that not all aircraft will be shown on any traffic system (some aircraft non Xponder equipped or turned off) and we all need to be aware of this and keep a look out as much as possible. I fear there's too much gadget gazing and not enough old fashioned lookout going on in some cockpits.

[rjtjrt]

what about the other traffic not on either system.
I accept that, but have never understood the logic that because it won't show all, it is not important to show as much as can be displayed.
Having electronic traffic doesn't mean we don't have to look out for other traffic, just we are aided in seeing some of it. The more we are aided in seeing the better.

[27/09]

Part of my point was if you're going to try and make AvPlan and OzRunways share data why not make ASA/Airways share data.

[Bevan666]

We're (AvPlan EFB) more than happy to share traffic data with OzR - we've approached them multiple times and OzR don't want to do it.

We've recently added PIREPs (http://www.avplan-efb.com/tips/pireps/) and also quite happy to share this data as well, as I see it being a benefit for everyone.

[peterc005]

That attitude to sharing data is a good reason for me to switch back to AvPlan.

[Beef Noodle]

OzRunways are pretty secretive about how many active users they have. If they shared location data, AvPlan would potentially be able to figure it out and vice-versa. In a sense it's handing over real-time information on how successful your EFB is to the competition. That would be my guess anyway. It all comes down to protecting the $$$.

[Wiggley]

OzRunways are pretty secretive about how many active users they have. If they shared location data, AvPlan would potentially be able to figure it out and vice-versa. In a sense it's handing over real-time information on how successful your EFB is to the competition. That would be my guess anyway.

Nothing they couldn't figure out now using wireshark or something similar. Not hard to scan network traffic and emulate web calls...

I've always wondered though whether features like this cause people to use the feature as a bit of a "poor man's TCAS" and making their outside scans a little less vigilant? On the other hand extra information to increase your SA is never a bad thing!

[Styx75]

Id think the best way to implement this would be an independant party that provides a service where data could be uploaded to by trusted parties, and then retreieved by end user clients. Like flightaware but for GA...

[MikeJulietHotel]

It's available on the web (https://tx.ozrunways.com/) for anyone to see today, so I don't think the issue is commercial secrecy.

OzRunways are pretty secretive about how many active users they have. If they shared location data, AvPlan would potentially be able to figure it out and vice-versa. In a sense it's handing over real-time information on how successful your EFB is to the competition. That would be my guess anyway. It all comes down to protecting the $$$.

[Aussie Bob]

I think staring at a portable device looking for traffic that may be present is in itself a safety hazard. If indeed this sort of stuff makes us "safer" I am asking safer from what?

Safer from bird strike perhaps? Safer from Aussie Bob who never uses such gadgets? Safer at the scene of the last mid air? (VFR approach point at YSBK if I recall correctly)

I don't care if the data is shared or not. It will not show me. But I do have a window which I use regularly.

Now don't get me wrong, I am not saying this sort of thing is useless, but to harp on that lack of data sharing is a safety issue is drawing a pretty long bow. In any event, I hardly know anyone other than the odd private pilot and his mates that are using it anyway.

[mikewil]

In any event, I hardly know anyone other than the odd private pilot and his mates that are using it anyway.

That is very true. Even in GA there are more aircraft than not which wouldn't show up in any case. The vast majority of CPL students on NAV ex flights won't be using tablets so they won't show up. Many private pilots don't use them, and depending on your organization, a lot of GA charter pilots don't use them.

It would be far more useful to have live SSR and ADSB feeds being downloadable to these apps as it is on websites like flightaware.

[MikeJulietHotel]

It's all incremental benefit. You get some additional situational awareness from the app you're using, you get some more with ADSB receiver and you get some more with your eyes out the window and some more with your ears on the radio. Add it all together...

You'd also be surprised how many operators are using them...All the HEMS rotary wings in Victoria, the bank runners, RAAus a/c, private a/c, RFDS...

That is very true. Even in GA there are more aircraft than not which wouldn't show up in any case. The vast majority of CPL students on NAV ex flights won't be using tablets so they won't show up. Many private pilots don't use them, and depending on your organization, a lot of GA charter pilots don't use them.

It would be far more useful to have live SSR and ADSB feeds being downloadable to these apps as it is on websites like flightaware.
You can have that too on either app for around USD$100, see here (http://stratux.me/)

[mikewil]

You can have that too on either app for around USD$100, see here (http://stratux.me/)You still need additional hardware for that.

The most useful solution would be one which can download live ADSB & SSR information over your 3G/4G connection.

[rjtjrt]

The question I have is how many aircraft in vicinity are not seen in the visual lookout method?
No one here can say.
However, you hear reports from US where they have a much more extensive electronic traffic system used by GA aircraft, that pilots are amazed by how much traffic is not seen in the visual lookout system. Yes I know, those pilots are all idiots who don't have a good lookout, unlike the gods who inhabit Australian cockpits.
I suspect the real reason we are pretty safe from collision is not our lookout, but the big sky principle.

[Aussie Bob]

I suspect the real reason we are pretty safe from collision is not our lookout, but the big sky principle.

I suspect that you are correct. An electronic gizmo won't fix it though.

[Ixixly]

I use OzRunways on my Android Tablet and in the past week and a half since Traffic was finally added to the Android version it's helped me at least 4 times. My job requires a fair bit of time with my head in the cockpit down at VFR levels, I've had 2 occasions where traffic was given by ATC but no ID and I was able to find them and Identify them on OzRunways straight away and organise seperation and I've 2 other occasions where Traffic has been shown on Ozrunways that ATC didn't see.

I personally would love for everyone to be installing Ozrunways on their device, whether that's an iPhone, Tablet or Android Phone. We talk about ADS-B giving us greater safety but the cost of installing one being tens of thousands and the installation of OzRunways being free and only requiring a connection which using Telstra you'll be surprised at how wide the coverage can be!

Install it, stick it on your dash and leave it running plugged in to a power source and it could help you out eventually and will barely cost you a thing! Tell your friend you'll be going on a trip so they can track you as well and make sure you get there, lots of uses for it and most people have an iPhone or Android Device these days!

[Squawk7700]

The most useful solution would be one which can download live ADSB & SSR information over your 3G/4G connection.

No way. The best solution would be for everyone to have ADSB or a similar concept, just like they have transponders now.

Reliance on 3/4G is not an effective solution.

[Squawk7700]

Welcome to the world of commercial reality.

It is my understanding that Avplan used to use the live web feed from OZRunways but don't any more as there used to be stacks of aircraft showing up on Avplan, but now it's few and far between.

There are so few aircraft showing up in Avplan from when I used it, I can't see why Ozrunways would bother feeding them in. Unless I am mistaken, is there a filter that's blocking them out or do they all show up by default?

[UnderneathTheRadar]

Forget the data sharing, I've just forked out <$100 for a complete RaspberryPI based ADSB-IN setup which wirelessly shows me traffic on AvPlan. Whatever the merits of the ADSB mandate, I don't see how anyone flying with a tablet-type device can justify not having this functionality at this price.

Both AvPlan and OzRunways support it - see www.stratux.me or the dedicated OzRunways page (the ozrunways version didn't work for me but I didn't trouble shoot - I just went to the stratux version and it worked out of the box) and away you go.