Which modular school to choose ?

[KayPam]

Hello
I am currently a PPL, with 72 PIC hours and only 28 hours remaining before the CPL requirements. I also have a night rating and a class 1 medical (since this morning :D ). I currently live in Toulouse.

I should be starting my ATPL distance learning very soon.
I chose the cheapest distance ATPL near my home : ESMA, montpellier
Would anyone like to challenge this choice ?

I was also hesitating about the next step : the flight training school.
Two years ago, I told my father that I did not want him to pay for an expensive masters degree abroad, and went for a free masters degree in France, so he might very well pay or help pay for my training, and I may be able to not borrow any money, which I realise is very lucky.

Since I have almost the requirements for the CPL, want a distance ATPL theory learning, and since I want to be trained faster, I decided not to join an integrated ATPL. If anyone would like to protest this decision, this is the opportunity.

I looked at several schools and have noticed some categories, mainly based on price (always in € below)
- Cheap eastern european schools (prices between 10k-20k for CPL IR ME MCC)
- French schools (all around 30k) (their advantage would be a lower cost of living on site, since I have family near two-three interesting french FTOs)
- English cheap schools (around 28k) (Their advantage would be improving my oral english)
- English expensive schools (CTC, OAA, FTE Jerez, about between 50 and 60k)
- Scandinavian schools (30-35k)

What advice could you give about choosing my future FTO ?
Does the choice of the FTO really change the chance of finding a job ?

If my father is to pay for a significant part of my training, I would rather him see a result rather than a saving.
To put it differently, I think he would not care to pay a bit more if that maximized the chance of me getting a job.

Given all this, what FTO would you recommend I choose ?

Some people have recommended me DFAS in Sweden, some have recommended the 3 most expensive english schools, some others told that the latter 3 were a ripoff... I don't know what to think anymore.

I really have no other criteria than maximizing my chance of getting an airline job.

Thanks

(P.S. : my plan is to apply for the MPL programme and take the ENAC selective examination just before sitting the ATPL theory exams, just on the offchance I would be successful)

[paco]

What BPI said, but looking at current trends within EASA, make sure that you have visible training in the softer skills, such as teamwork and/or leadership. Although some airlines are receptive to modular training, they are finding that many candidates are failing in the final stages for these reasons, because they typically study on their own. Some may argue that their selection process is at fault, but that is the trend. In other words, budget for an MCC course.

I can put you in touch with a seriously good language instructor in Paris who will sort problem 3 out.

[KayPam]

KayPam.
Good question.
That's why I will give my advice.

I think your best bet is option #2. Stay in France. Be at home for the ground school and stay with relatives for the flying. Living expenses are a huge part of this.

Option #1 is also good if you have little money. But that's not you. So it's not a good choice you you, others yes.

There is no point in option #3. If you want to improve your English, just go on vacation to England.

Option #4 is a terrible choice. There is no status in overpaying for something.

Option #5 Why?

If you want your father to help, then have him pay for a type rating.

Good luck, I wish you well.
Regarding the softer skills and my english level : one of the reasons I could not get into the EZY MPL programme with CTC, is that although my english level is sufficient for day to day living, it did not allow me to actively participate in a heated conversation of native speakers. I need a few tenth of seconds after each intervention to prepare my own intervention. The native did not need this small delay and were monopolising the conversation.
The other French guy with me had the same kind of problem even though his level (elsewhere) seemed very good.

I do not need an instructor: I need to speak, write, think, live in english 24/7 for a few months. That's why I would be willing to spend the extra 4-5k for the cost of living (see below my calculation)

Thanks to my current job, I have unlimited access to all FCOMs for all airlines of the entire airbus fleet, as well as some aero data : would you recommend I read them in an exhaustive manner ? (I currently read only the small bits I need)

The total duration of the CPL IR ME MCC JOC should be around 4-5 months so living expenses abroad could be kept down to about 4-5k€ I believe.
Some cheaper options might be available, with certain schools providing on site accomodation at a fair price.
A swedish school for instance is 246 000 SEK (about 24.7k€) for CPL IR ME and housing, an additional MCC/JOC can be found for a low price elsewhere, bringing the total to about 30k.

I have thought about how to become a pilot for years and I have not been sure of many things but the one thing that I considered obvious is that joining a french FTO would be a waste of money.
You seem to disagree : why ?

The advantage of England would be getting a real ICAO lvl 6 (what do you believe english sound like when spoken in France by french controllers and instructors ? :lol: )
People have told me that this swedish school had a higher chance of getting me a job.

Do you really think my chances of finding a job will be the same, regardless of the FTO I go to ?
What about the "placement pool" of the three trending english schools ?

[KayPam]

Several reasons for preferring an english school, however point (1) has to be kept in mind.
- I reckon that an international experience is always more valuable.
When I will be in front of a recruiter, he will probably be non-French.
It will be easier to convince him that I can adapt to an international environment if I went to train abroad instead of a city near my hometown.

- Yes, the english level (I truly value a native speaker's english) as well as a price that's similar

- Real IFR conditions all year long ( :lol: )

(1) However if any school gives me a slightly better chance of getting a job, I will go there regardless of country, language, etc..

Does anyone believe the choice of school has an influence of my chance of getting a job ?
If it is the case, which one(s) ?
If not, I will simply go to the school with the most beautiful airplanes, accomodations, or other stupid criteria (I don't like the looks of the tecnam aircraft)

[KayPam]

Good night again

I found this page :
https://www.aurigny.com/HTML/EN/pilottrainingadvice.aspx?lang=EN
And they basically recommend integrated over modular, and the three english schools over all others..

This seems to be confirmed by some elements :
- Volotea recruiting their cadets mainly from some selected FTOs (according to pilotjobnetwork)
- Ryanair only recruiting their cadets from the CAE TR programme

Like I said, paying 50k instead of 40k is totally realistic and reasonable from our point of view (me and my father's) if this increases the chance of getting an airline job

[Alex Whittingham]

With respect, KayPam, your statement about Ryanair is wrong. Ryanair recruit widely from both integrated and modular programmes with no (as in zero) links to any ab-initio flight school, with the one excepted area below. AFAIK the selection is completed before the TR course. They do use CAE for the type rating but that does not imply a link to CAE Oxford or that they source pilots from any particular ATO. Their Head of Training, Andy O'Shea, consistently says in presentations that (i) there is no discernible difference between modular or integrated trained candidates and (ii) irrespective of which 'selection' procedures candidates have been through before starting at their respective flight schools 50% are fundamentally unemployable. The inference is that the majority of ATOs' selection procedures are ineffective, although doubtless many would dispute that statement this is the judgement of possibly the largest end user in Europe.

The one excepted area is that Ryanair say they are keen to recruit local pilots who will wish to stay in southern and eastern European bases and now appear to be asking for some of the better (mainly modular) schools in those areas (Poland, Italy, Greece) to recommend pilots after CPL IR and before MCC/JOC with the apparent intention of selecting candidates at that point and Ryanair doing the MCC/JOC themselves to a standard that they consider useful, with the upgraded MCC/JOC transitioning smoothly to a TR.

See David Learmount's blog (https://davidlearmount.com/tag/andy-oshea/), although his understanding of how the APC course will possibly fit in is slightly different to mine.

[KayPam]

Thanks for that answer.

So what do you reckon I should do, in light of these elements ? (it looks like you're telling i should use other criteria like price, country.. and not FTO's reputation)

Should I even reconsider my desire of becoming a pilot since there is apparently a statistical 50% chance i'm unsuitable for the job ?

[Alex Whittingham]

You should be aware that there are a large number of unemployed pilots in Europe still, and empirical evidence seems to suggest these are ryanair's 'unemployables'. If you look at the Learmount article you will see that the fail point is not technical skill - 'Can I fly an ILS?' - but soft skills such as situational awareness, communication, operation as part of a team, etc. Some people have these skills naturally or as result of their upbringing or life experience, others need to be taught them. You may have an idea now whether you have them or not.

In the airline world these are known as 'competencies', and the training system that develops them is 'competency based training'. The aim is to produce not just pilots but functional first officers and captains. There are some very good ATOs that train along these lines, many that ignore them completely and a whole range in between. An FTO's reputation is a guide to their ability to deliver these skills but only a guide because many 'well recommended' FTOs ignore them completely. You will see competency based training most as you get closer to the airlines, MCC/JOC and type ratings, but this is how the airline will assess you. In early training your chosen FTO may not help you much with this but you can help yourself.

In the end the decision has to be yours but I would say:


Integrated or modular makes no difference, there are good and bad in both camps.
An English speaking FTO would be an advantage for you but it doesn't have to be in England. Your written English is very good.
An English language groundschool would be good value - I'll say no more about this as I run an English groundschool, however others are available. I don't think a French language ATPL course would help you half as much as you would learn aviation French, not aviation English. 'Le badin' etc...
Don't write off low price Eastern or southern European FTOs for flying courses. Some are very good at what they do and incredibly cheap by UK/French standards.
Research research research. Do not be convinced by glossy websites.
Work on your soft skills, learn how to communicate effectively, be part of a team, build life experience.


Just out of interest, we are involved with selection for the Wings Alliance, they have a similar fail rate to Ryanair's, also mainly for soft skills. There are many technical hurdles to overcome as you go through flying training, PPL, ground exams, skills test, IR, but you won't get a job on the basis of your technical skill. Everyone with a license (in theory) has those same technical skills, you will be employed on the basis of soft skills.

[KayPam]

I am aware that there are many unemployed pilots, and I know some of them. Three of my instructors in my current airclub are fully qualified wannabe airline pilots, two of wich graduated from the ENAC. However I will get my fATPL regardless.. That is the sort of irrationality that comes with passion.

I understand you're working for BGS.
Regarding the theory, I will most probably go for a French school.
Obviously, I will ask for english books and tests. The only loss when compared to an english ground school will be the mandatory two weeks of on-site training : not in immersion across the channel :(

It is nice to have someone point out so early in the process of becoming a pilot the importance of soft skills. (2)
Thanks for clearing up the "competency based" thing. I passed a competency-based interview with CTC-EZY without knowing exactly what it was (but failed the group interview(1))
In my opinion, soft skills are the most prominent if not the only skills assessed during interview, I'm telling that from my engineering experience (2). So I reckon basically everybody should work on them. However (1) is the sign that I in particular should work on them !
Comment (2) : If anybody had told me no one cared about my technical skills during an interview I would have prepared for my engineering interview differently.. But that's a whole other subject.

Things I imagine would be positive points for an FTO regarding pilot soft skills :
- Instructors letting students take responsibility an truly train them for a captain position at the maximum of the legal possibilities. (ie on a single pilot aircraft)
- Training in small groups of student. Maybe a daily study of the weather conditions in the morning, preparing the airplanes and hangaring them, backseating and flying different branches of a bigger navigation flight
- Like you said introduction of MCC concepts as soon as possible

I've looked at the wings alliance website.
Could you single out any school among these ?
It is very difficult to make an informed choice. Most of the time I will only get one or two reviews. Like this guy told me aeros were the leaders for modular training. The next one told me aeros were a catastrophy and recommended DFAS.

It might be very difficult to go and visit them. Even more so to really evaluate them. That would require backseating for at least a flight and spending at least a day on the facilities..

This seems interesting :
https://www.wingsalliance.eu/training/apc-application/

[paco]

You won't go wrong with Aeros. They have very high standards.

[Alex Whittingham]

Morning KayPam, I didn't mean to imply that technical skills are ignored in selection, only that all license holders should (almost by definition) possess them to an adequate standard. Knowledge and Flight Path Management, automatic and manual are indeed three of the competencies assessed, for an overview of competencies and behavioural indicators see pages 65 and 66 of the IATA guide (https://www.iata.org/whatwedo/ops-infra/training-licensing/Documents/ebt-implementation-guide.pdf).

ESMA would probably be fine for the ATPL theory, I have had no direct contact with them but they have a good reputation. I'm assuming they use Jeppesen material and teach in a combination of French and English? If you would like to PM me with your possible choices of FTOs for CPL and IR we can discuss, it is quite possible that your best choice would not be a Wings Alliance partner as we have only one French FTO, Hubair in Nimes.

Regarding Aeros, a single negative comment is not enough to discount an FTO as students often blame the FTO for their own shortcomings when they have problems. On the other hand a pattern of discontented students indicates a problem. You should base your choice on more than one or two reviews, as you say.

[paco]

If those guys are using the Peters software Jeppesen material, be warned that it is seriously flawed. I even felt obliged to write and complain about it. BGS would be a much better choice.

[KayPam]

What is the Peters software Jeppesen material ? Online books ?
I don't envision myself reading 14 000 pages on my tv screen, computer or smartphone, so I will have to buy the books !

[paco]

The Jeppesen ATPL(A) study material was created by Peters software and sunsequently bought by Boeing - heaven knows why. Alex mentioned it above as potentially being used by a school you may end up going to. if they do, you will need alternative reading material.

[KayPam]

Are you talking about the contents quality or about the quality of the software/interface to read the digital version of the books ?
Since I mentionned I would be using books, it should be the former.

Which is a bit worrying since the ESMA does use the Jeppesen books...

[paco]

I'm talking about the content. They were obviously written by a non-native English speaker who is not a pilot. Due to the choice of font, they are not easy to read for long periods, and although the graphics look nice, many are actually quite confusing.

I know of at least two people who bought a full set and sent them right back. You will definitely need some alternative reading material, or good classroom instruction.

[KayPam]

I guess it actually is possible to buy my own books from whomever I want and subscribe for an online, whose online books I won't read !

I can even buy the books now, and pay the larger amount of money (subscription, about 2100€ with ESMA) later !

Maybe I will tell that to the ESMA.
Especially if I can find books at a discount elsewhere !

I guess Bristol ground school has some good material ?
Could I buy them directly from them or is it readily possible to find second hand at a lower price ?

Edit :
https://www.bristol.gs/product/atpla-manuals-cbt/
This is hugely expensive. Who the :mad: pays 150£ for a simple book ?
My uncle wrote a theoretical book about music, which became a reference in its micro-domain. There were 5 volumes, each about as thick as one 150£ ATPL book, but required much more time of preparation. These are found between 30-50€ on amazon, that is a reasonable price...

[Black Pudding]

A key sign of how good someone's product is, is when they don't care if you go elsewhere. It's like Rolls Royce and Bently. They don't care if you want to buy a cheaper car. You get what you pay for. Simple as that. Buy cheap, possibly buy twice.

[KayPam]

150€ for a quality book is not expensive, at all. Consider yourself lucky you're not going to uni! If you, for example, would have picked a proper metallurgy book you would probably pay over 300€. Your uncle's book is cheap because it's about music..

There are plenty of people selling their books after they're done. Just browse around, or try to meet people at schools and ask around. They'll be happy to help.

Honestly, you're spending 50 000+ for training, 150 for a book really isn't all that expensive.

Also, you're asking a lot of questions about flight training, which is GREAT!!! But try to talk to people in real life as well. We're all strangers on the internet. Some are glorified wannabes thinking they know everything there and defend their choices, some are experienced pilots just looking to help, others are trying to sell you something, etc. In the end, you gotta trust your own instinct and opinion!
Well, I attended two top unis (one in France, one in Australia), and none of them required me to buy 150$+ books..
The French one printed its own books, and sold them at the bare minimum price, about 7€ per book. The authors were our teachers
The Australian one did not require books at all so this example is on a different level.

But ok, there is a market price and it is quite high.


Would there be any other comment on the Jeppesen books quality ?
It would really make my life easier if they were good : the ESMA will provide the electronic version, and it could prove useful to have both the electronic and paper version of the books. (I could work on the pdf files at work and on the books at home)

What about the age of the books ?
I can find a 2013 complete set for 300€
Is it too old ?
Thanks

[SeventhHeaven]

2013 is not too old. Those books are absolutely fine.

Nothing has changed since then. The learning objectives are still the same. 90% of the exam questions are still the same

Aerodynamics are Aerodynamics. A piston engine still obeys the same laws. Hell, even airlaw does not change. This is high school level stuff - It's just a lot.

Don't worry about it. The only differences between these yearly revisions are basically spelling, grammar, and the occasional image/graph. You won't miss out on anything by using an older book.


--- /incoming personal rant

Self published books, in an academic/scientific context, written by your own teachers, are worthless.

There are no authorities in science. You are judged on the merits of your arguments. Nobody knows everything, nobody has up-to-date knowledge on everything. Nobody has time for that. That's why we let the academic community/market forces decide on what's good teaching material and what's not.

So I seriously doubt you attended a top uni, or majored in anything scientific or otherwise in constant flux.

There is a reason you won't find many french universities in the yearly top 100 rankings.

Note that I am not saying a 300€ book is inherently better than a 50€ book. I'm also not saying government funded universities or books are bad.

/end rant. I get seriously triggered by this nonsense.

[KayPam]

Ok for the theoretical ATPL
So I seriously doubt you attended a top uni, or majored in anything scientific or otherwise in constant flux.
What do you mean by "in constant flux" ?

For the personnal rant : oh my god there it is !! The clash between the French idea of top education and the Anglosaxon (are you English? American?) idea of top education ! The first time I have the opportunity to fight it !

Self published books, in an academic/scientific context, written by your own teachers, are worthless.
Really, it depends on what you expect of them.
Sure, if you want to publish the best thesis of the academic year, master's degree books from a teacher that discovered the subject when he got his tenure will not be enough.
However if you just want a scientific job, they will be perfect.

There are no authorities in science. You are judged on the merits of your arguments. Nobody knows everything, nobody has up-to-date knowledge on everything. Nobody has time for that. That's why we let the academic community/market forces decide on what's good teaching material and what's not.
Basically, I'd sum it up by saying that the French dean want its students to know nothing about everything, whereas the Anglosaxon dean want its students to know everything about nothing.
Some knowledge of many domains vs highly specialised knowledge of only one domain
Subsequently, the French dean does not really care if the book is not up to date nor the best.
So I seriously doubt you attended a top uni, or majored in anything scientific or otherwise in constant flux.
Would you like to see a scan of my degree ?:p
I attended one of 3 best engineering school in France. It is between 100th and 150th on QS ranking, the best one is Polytechnique which is ranked ~50 in QS ranking.
Note that this is despite the fact that the criteria of the QS ranking are not adapted at all for French engineering schools.
There is a reason you won't find many french universities in the yearly top 100 rankings.
The reason is the following :
QS ranking is based on research, and size, whereas French schools like to be small and very numerous, and like to educate engineers, not ph doctors (an engineering degree from ecole polytechnique is really the top scientific diploma you can get in France, it is far far better on the job market than having a Phd from a normal uni, even the best according to QS, which is UPMC)

When I was there, I was "specialized" in aerospace engineering, but had classes in many many domains, such as finance, economy, thermal engineering, statistics, algorithmics and programming, hell, even biology ! (among various others)
Inside my specialization, I also saw many domains, such as aero engineering, combustion, structures and solid mechanics, product lifecycle management, airplane design, etc..

All books used in our engineering schools (at least the top 3 and I can safely bet it's the same elsewhere in France) are written by our teachers.
The fact is we don't aim at being the very best in one very small domain. We aim at knowing many many domains, without being the best experts on any of these domains. Each and every course could allow us to become quite good at the subject, however, as you can imagine it, it is quite difficult to be good at many things. So only the top students (the ones that work the hardest) will be very good at many things. Other ones will just work more on things they like more.

And many French graduates from our engineering schools, despite having not studied the best books on the market, have stolen are stealing and will steal English graduates finance jobs in London ;)

To finish with, I attended a top australian uni for 6 months (40-50 in QS ranking). Some of my comrades preferred other countries and one of my best mates joined Columbia.
Really, to us, the academic level, if we chose courses whose prerequisites we fulfilled, was a joke. Sorry to say it like that.
In France, we have this system where we work our asses off during two years, then there is a selective examination to join the top schools. So we know what it is to work hard (some of my mates worked up to 70 hours per week, I was between 45 and 50 hours)

In Australia, the dean told us that for each hour of class, we should work two hours at home. This could seem daunting, since a French guy would expect 20-30 weekly hours of class, so that would be 60-90 weekly hours of work !
But in fact, we only had 13 hours of class, including 2 hours of tutorial (where is the laughing smiley when you need it ?). I did not like the tutorials so I did not attend them. We had mandatory assignments so I had to work at home, but the mandatory assignments were all I did.
We were given 3 weeks without any class to revise !! I studied like 2 days before my exams, and passed them.
Not with flying colors, this would have required learning things up to an advanced level but with a slightly better mark than the university's average.

To me, this semester was a semester of holidays !

One interesting event is the following:
During the first lesson of class A, teacher A gave an assignment for the next week. This made up 10% of the final mark for the class. It was to write approx one page about a given scientific topic. I completely forgot about it. When I was asked to give it in, I almost panicked but decided to lie and tell I just had forgotten it at home. Teacher A told me that if I had not done it, I would get a 0% mark for this assignment. I told him I would just get out of class at 5, get my bus and be home by 5:30, then I could scan it and e-mail it by 5:40. In fact I lived a 10-minute walk away. I ran home. Worked the fastest of my whole life, and scanned it and sent it.

Of course, I did not get a shiny 10/10%, I got a slightly above average mark, 6.5.


I am very sorry if I sounded like an arrogant :mad:, however I believe that using strong, politically uncorrect words and not hiding behind euphemisms have helped my ideas to be very clear.

Edit :
The previous was for engineering. But let's talk about research : the Ecole Normale Superieure. That is the most elite education you can get if you want to become a researcher.
"Fun fact : All the french Fields medalists have studied, at undergrad level, at the Ecole normale supérieure in Paris which, alone, produced more medalists (still talking of undergrad) than all the universities in the Ivy League, Cambridge, Oxford and MIT ... combined."
You can read all in :
https://www.quora.com/Which-country-has-the-hardest-Mathematics-in-their-education-curriculum/answer/Francesco-Ducci?ref=fb_page

[paco]

You need to be aware that any books older than about a year will have the operations section seriously out of date (get EU Doc 965/2012).

At least 1500 new questions in previously unused parts of the learning objectives have been added since then, and 2000 existing ones tweaked.

300 euros is a lot for secondhand books.

[KayPam]

I will be buying the PDF version of the 2016 Jeppesen books.
I will just have them printed and voilà !!

This will work if the documents are not electronically protected.

[KayPam]

The Jeppesen ATPL(A) study material was created by Peters software and sunsequently bought by Boeing - heaven knows why. Alex mentioned it above as potentially being used by a school you may end up going to. if they do, you will need alternative reading material.
I have read the instruments chapter from peters software, and I am about to make my choice between JAA Jeppesen 2015 books or 2012 Oxford books.

Peters software is a catastrophy, the english sounds german, many things are unclear, and I've even found inconsistencies..

Is Jeppesen really from Peter's software ? The PDF version of my 2004 Jeppesen books seemed a bit better.

So it looks like I should choose the Oxford books ?
And maybe an updated version of some books (operations and air law are too old?) ?

Thanks !

[paco]

Jeppesen used to publish the Oxford books, and some of those authors have written some the pad pilot stuff available on ibooks.

It's a very incestuous industry :)

[KayPam]

So I should just go for the cheapest ? Id be a tad surprised if Oxford was no better than peters software...

[paco]

The old oxford books are way better. I'm not sure when the cutoff date was, but the 4th edition were probably best.

[KayPam]

I finally got my books, Oxford fifth edition, just over 6800 pages and 18 kg !

Definitely looks more serious than Peter's software ! I'll soon be able to confirm that for sure.

[paco]

There you go, didn't know there was a fifth edition!

[KayPam]

Cheapest vs most expensive training : do they really provide better training ?

Hello
I have a very simple question.
Bartolini advertises 17500€ for CPL + MEIR
The same is 7k more at DFAS
The same is 50% more at a normal french or english school
The same is twice as much (or even a bit more) at CTC aviation.

Can one really say that there will be a noticeable difference in flying skills between students of all these different schools ?
Does is have any impact whatsoever on one's ability to find a job ?

I also have the same question, for MCC/JOC
MCC/JOC at the cheapest vs CTC/FTE : is the difference more noticeable ?

Could one argue about a school being at an optimum opportunities/price ratio ?

Thanks

[KayPam]

Actually simtech would be in the cheap category even though they may very well provide quality training.
Indeed, they advertise 4450€ whereas wings alliance will be 7500£

How much would cockpit4u be ?

I'm not convinced by the CPL on P2002 thingy at Bartolini
I would rather train entirely on the DA42 for 7k€ more i think.

CTC FTE and OAA will not accept everybody in their AQC, will they ?
So there would be a supplementary delay due to selection and then a risk of not being accepted into it... A shame knowing you're already paying more..

[mike172]

I phoned up CTC only a few weeks ago to ask this very question. I was told that I could complete my CPL MEIR externally and still be eligible to apply for their AQC should I so wish.

[Alex Whittingham]

There is some discussion here (http://www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship/588484-easy-jet-aqc-tr-questions-8.html) that suggests CTC have stopped supplying easyjet with pilots from the AQC and all are now going into a special hold pool. Candidates asking for their money back.

[Alex Whittingham]

Its still a good course

[KayPam]

I'm not paying twice as much to get a good course.
I might as well ask for a longer course at a cheaper FTO...

Would there be placement opportunities with FTE/Kura/any other provider ?

If I had to choose my modular school right now i'd choose DFAS, but no idea about the MCC/JOC afterwards..

[Dreamliner747]

Hello KayPam,

Have you been able to select a school since your last message?

I read all the thread and found it very interesting. I'm asking myself some of the same questions.

I failed ENAC's selection this year but I have all requirements to start the CPL/IRME and MCC/JOC.

[KayPam]

I had settled down for DFAS but my personal circumstances will probably prevent me from going there after all..
I will possibly have to train in an other way.

[KayPam]

Update one year later :

I started a few weeks ago my IR training, competency based, with an airclub and the nearest FTO.

This should give me an IR-SE by the end of may 2018.
From there, I will only need 25 to 30 hours in a DA-42 to get a CPL + IR-ME.

So right now I'm looking for a school who could provide me with just that.

All of this is because I have a new job that could provide me with very interesting opportunities in the future. However this job won't allow me taking several months off to train. Luckily, I know at least one school who can train me for the CPL + IR ME (IR SE to IR ME in 5 hours of training) in just 2 to 3 weeks.

What are the cheapest schools available ? Poland maybe ?
What are the most reputable schools that would allow to train just for CPL + 5 hours of IR SE to IR ME ?

Thank you

[Krautwald]

Their Head of Training, Andy O'Shea, consistently says in presentations that...irrespective of which 'selection' procedures candidates have been through before starting at their respective flight schools 50% are fundamentally unemployable.


Any thoughts or facts on which unemployability factors he/they refer to? What disqualifies people?

[Alex Whittingham]

You have to read Andy O'Shea's statement as "50% are fundamentally unemployable by Ryanair's standards" and there is no doubt that employment standards vary across the industry. Anyone who has ever seen Ryanair's training system in operation is likely to agree, however, that they are very good. They are not alone in that, but their support and attention to detail are impressive.

His point and mine would be that piloting is one of the few professions where you can gain the base qualification without any effective filtering. In the days where no attention was paid to CRM many pilots were hired that were completely unsuitable for working in a multi-crew cockpit by modern standards, the classic example would be the flight crew of the KLM aircraft in the Tenerife disaster, but many many lesser examples exist who haven't killed anybody yet. Ryanair and most modern airlines train to the ICAO competencies which are listed on page 65 and 66 of this IATA document (https://www.iata.org/whatwedo/ops-infra/training-licensing/Documents/ebt-implementation-guide.pdf). There are seven:

*Application of procedures
*Communication
*Aircraft flight path management - automatic
*Aircraft flight path management - manual
*Leadership and teamwork
*Problem solving and decision making
*Situation awareness
*Workload management

The fact that you hold a licence only directly relates to one of these, Aircraft flight path management - manual. Deficiencies in any of the other areas make you less likely to be hired. Button Push is correct in a way, many people already have these qualities, acquired in early life or in previous employment, but many do not, hence the high fail rate.

To some extent these competencies can be trained, and this is where the benefit of a good course at an ATO that understands these things kicks in. There is an evident problem, though, and that is that it costs considerably less to just train Bloggs to pass the flight test and, there being no economic incentive for flight schools to train properly, most do not.

I don't think that Bartolini would claim to do more than supply the CPL\IR training to a high standard and a reasonable cost. To the best of my knowledge they have no pre-selection and like most others do not train to the full set of competencies, they will train you well to get through the test. FTE and DFAS would have to be seen in the same light, high quality ATOs doing a job. Of course you can go elsewhere, there are ATOs that are rubbish, they won't schedule your training properly, the instructors don't care, there's a lack of lack of standardisation, poor maintenance standards, easy flight tests because of poor local examiners/lack of interest from the regulatory Authority, etc., etc.. The thing is that the poor ATOs are not measurably cheaper. If they were you could perhaps tolerate the poor service. I think the recommendations for CPL/IR ATOs have to be seen in that light, will they do the job you are paying them for, and do it well?

[JumboJet1999]

There are ATOs that are rubbish, they won't schedule your training properly, the instructors don't care, there's a lack of lack of standardisation, poor maintenance standards, easy flight tests because of poor local examiners/lack of interest from the regulatory Authority, etc., etc.. The thing is that the poor ATOs are not measurably cheaper. If they were you could perhaps tolerate the poor service.

And could please expose to us the names of these particular schools so that we can avoid them like the plague. . . ? Would be much appreciated.

[Alex Whittingham]

I'd love to, but I can't run an ATO down by name, these are our competitors. We can only name the good ones and leave you to notice which ones no-one recommends. Doesn't stop people though, how many times have you seen posts like "have been looking at dodgypetes ATO and thinking of spending £20K. Lots of negative reviews, has anyone been there recently?"

[Global_Global]

200% agree with all Alex his statements above:ok:

[Krautwald]

Thank you very much Alex, I have had my modular training underway for some time now but never fully comprehended the training goals you described. Will surely help me choose the next steps.

[fad297acbad262c9a2f0]

Hi Aviators,

I am looking to start my CPL ME and IR with Bartolini ASAP but they're giving me January 2019 start. They were saying there are student with March/April 2018 start that are willing to give away their start date. If anyone know such individuals, it would be a great help. Many thanks

[shaviator]

Hello there,

I'm a 27 year old Indian citizen, currently working in Dubai and have no prior flight experience. I'm planning to start my flight training in modular way by end of this year and intended to complete it in maximum of 3 years (I'll be doing the training during my work vacations, which I could get up to 2 months per year). It would be great, if anyone could help me with inputs on the following.

Suggest me some good modular schools in Europe which will give good training and has experience of handling modular candidates. Cost is also a factor.
How to find the first Airline job after the training? Will the ATOs help in the placements? As I understand, being an Indian citizen it would be get an airline job in European Airlines (maybe I'm wrong). I found that many European ATOs are looking for EU nationals to be in their placement programs. I'm okay to work anywhere since I'm willing to move to a new place.

Kindly guide me in the right path. Being a pilot is something I always wanted since I remember. Now I think I should go for it.

-Thanks to all lovely people out there who are helping others by sharing information .

[Thegreenmachine]

Hi.
Firstly tell us where you have the right to live and work. There are plenty of good modular schools in Europe but if you don't have the right to live and work in Europe you would be wasting your time training for an EASA license.

[shaviator]

Hi.
Firstly tell us where you have the right to live and work. There are plenty of good modular schools in Europe but if you don't have the right to live and work in Europe you would be wasting your time training for an EASA license.
I don't think that I have a right to live and work in Europe for now (I'm not sure how to obtain that being an Indian citizen). I'm looking to get trained in Europe is because:

I heard that one could easily convert EASA licence to Middle Eastern GCCA and Indian DGCA licences where I could work. And, many middle eastern airlines are hiring fresh pilots from European ATOs.
Also I heard that there are many ATOs that are good at handling modular students.

[JackTorrance]

I'm talking about the content. They were obviously written by a non-native English speaker who is not a pilot. Due to the choice of font, they are not easy to read for long periods, and although the graphics look nice, many are actually quite confusing.

I know of at least two people who bought a full set and sent them right back. You will definitely need some alternative reading material, or good classroom instruction.

I agree.... my ground school gave me this set of books, they are awful, absolutely useless, highly superficial and very bad written. Sometimes they look like a collection of notes taken during a lesson, with many repetitions. The worst thing is that when you finish studying the book you can overcome more or less 10% of the questions on AviationExam, some topics are not treated in the least. Bad book. OAA books explain much much better...