Change of government needed for electric air race?

[Dick Smith]

There is a detailed half page article by Ean Higgins in the Aus this morning ( headed Spirit of 1919 may soar once more- Inquirer page 6 )

Perhaps someone can get past the pay wall and put it up on this thread for discussion. It's beyond my expertise!

Unfortunately no real enthusiasm from this government. Typical with regards to anything in relation to extending the boundaries re General Aviation.

[tail wheel]

Somehow I got around the pay wall. :confused:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/inquirer/dick-smith-hopes-electric-air-race-will-mark-1919-centenary/news-story/7b11186244418b18c0544df4a7674340

Dick Smith hopes electric air race will mark 1919 centenary




Nigel Daw loves the Vickers Vimy registered G-EAOU and its epic story of what remains arguably the most audacious feat of aviation performed by Australians.

“It’s probably one of Australia’s greatest aviation gems,” he says of the nearly century-old British World War I heavy bomber, lovingly preserved in a pristine *humidity-controlled structure at Adelaide airport.

In 1919, the open-cockpit Vimy, a massive biplane made out of wood and fabric and held together with wires, completed what at the time was considered a near-impossible journey. Lured by a £10,000 prize offered by Australian prime minister Billy Hughes, Australian military aviators Ross and Keith Smith, who were brothers, together with mechanics Wally Shiers and Jim Bennett, took off from Hounslow near London on November 12, 1919.

It was the Great Air Race — six teams accepted Hughes’s challenge to become the first to fly from the UK to Darwin, with the proviso it had to be done within 30 days. Only the Vimy and one other competing crew made it to Australia; some of the others died trying.

The crew led by Ross Smith *arrived in Darwin 28 days after setting off, on an adventure-packed expedition through the Middle East, South Asia, and Southeast Asia. They became instant national heroes, with the Smith brothers knighted and the mechanics awarded honorary commissions.

The Smiths were from South Australia, and so G-EAOU — whimsically suggested to stand for God ’Elp All Of Us — was donated to that state and is on display a short walk from the Adelaide terminal building.

Daw, a banker turned aviation historian who acts as head libra*rian for the South Australian Aviation Museum, is a human archive of everything about the epic Vimy flight. He has visited the school in Scotland where the Smith brothers spent some of their early years, and as a keen 21-year-old aviation fan he watched part of the 50th anniversary commemoration of the journey, a Britain-to-Australia air race sponsored by BP in 1969.

Now Daw is excited about the prospect of a centenary commemoration of the 1919 race, proposed by businessman and aviator Dick Smith — who is potentially prepared to put up $1 million.

Like the 1919 race, the contest Smith has in mind would stretch the edges of long-distance aviation, but in a novel 21st-century fashion. That’s because under Smith’s plan, the 2019 air race would be restricted to a very special type of aircraft: one that has zero greenhouse emissions in flight.

What that means in practice is aircraft with battery-powered electric motors — a proven concept, but one that is still in its *infancy when it comes to range.

Daw considers Smith’s concept to be brilliant, capturing the innovative, adventurous, challenging spirit of the 1919 race. “That would be fabulous, to do it that way — we need to keep pushing the boundaries,” he says.

In fact just about everyone, with the apparent exception of the federal government, adores Smith’s idea. It’s seen as a way of commemorating the great Australian aviation achievement of 1919, pushing the envelope for electric-powered flight, and encouraging such innovation to take hold in Australia.

“We’re excited to hear that the centenary of the great 1919 air race could be commemorated in this way,” Adelaide airport’s executive general manager, corporate, Brenton Cox tells Inquirer.

“It’s fantastic to think that we can continue to push the boundaries of aviation — in this case through more sustainable power sources — just as our early aviators did nearly 100 years ago.”

Another fan of the electric plane commemorative air race idea is John Storey, emeritus professor of physics at the University of NSW, one of the country’s leading experts in battery and solar technology.

“Full marks to Dick for having come up with this, because I think this is a brilliant idea whose time has come,” Storey says.

Electric-powered aircraft have been around for some time. In 1973, electric flight pioneer Fred Militky retrofitted a motor glider with an electric engine, and it flew for 14 minutes — becoming the first manned electric aircraft to fly under its own power.

The range restrictions on electric aircraft remained severe for decades, however, because they relied on old-fashioned liquid-filled accumulator batteries, which were bulky and heavy. The aircraft could get off the ground at full power, but the batteries ran out before they could get very far.

The key to flight is the power-to-weight ratio of whatever provides the propulsion, and a revolution in battery technology over the past decade has brought the sort of challenge proposed by Smith within the realms of the possible.

“The amount of energy a battery can hold — the so-called energy density — has moved ahead in leaps and bounds,” Storey says. “Being able to get enough batteries into enough energy without making the aircraft weigh like an elephant is the heart of it.”

The new generation of batteries, of which “the absolute king” is lithium-ion, Storey says, offers an energy density about five times that of traditional batteries of even a couple of decades ago. Superior electric motor design, improved aerodynamics and lighter aircraft construction materials have also contributed to making electric flight more practical.

A variety of manned experimental electric planes have taken to the skies over the past decade. But in a big practical advance, the massive European aircraft manufacturer Airbus is soon to begin the first commercial production of such a plane. In 2014 Airbus launched a very elegant, carbon composite airframe, all-electric prototype, the single-seat E-Fan 1.0, powered by twin ducted fans.

In July last year, designer and test pilot Didier Esteyne flew the E-Fan across the English Channel from Lydd on the English south coast to Calais, completing the 74km flight in 37 minutes.

Airbus hailed it as a modern version of Frenchman Louis Bleriot’s first powered flight across the Channel in 1909.

Esteyne’s flight tested the limit of the E-Fan 1.0’s range, which Airbus puts at slightly more than 80km. The electric aircraft Airbus plans to take into full-scale commercial production in the next three years will be a significant advance on the prototype. The E-Fan 2.0 will be a two seat, side-by-side trainer. “Our target is to provide flying organisations in need of an as silent as possible a training tool with the most reliable, cost-effective, comfortable and modern looking aircraft,” Pierre Duval, Airbus’s head of sales and marketing for the project, tells Inquirer.

The environmental attraction of electric aircraft is obvious — no carbon emissions in flight. Of course, they would have to be plugged into the electricity power grid to charge up, and so their ultimate carbon footprint would *depend on the mix of that particular grid — whether it is fossil fuels such as coal and gas, or renewables such as solar, hydro, and wind.

But Airbus sees the attraction of, and market for, the E-Fan 2.0 as immediate and practical: quiet and emissions-free electric aircraft could fly where piston-powered trainers cannot because of noise or emissions restrictions.

Apart from flying academies, Duval says, “local leisure-flying over populated or preserved areas as well as local commuting over congested cities are also listed as targets”. Airbus has visions in the future of developing an electric powered regional airliner that could, for example, get around curfew restrictions.

As for the prospects of meeting Smith’s challenge for a Britain-to-Australia race, the E-Fan 2.0 would get closer to requirements, with Duval saying it is expected to have twice the range of the 1.0, perhaps about 200km.

“It may be possible, for a specific attempt, although it is not currently in our plans, to add to E-Fan 2.0 an additional pack of batteries up to the equivalent weight of a crew member — let’s say some 80kg, which would be more than 50 per cent of standard batteries’ weight — in the co-pilot seat,” Duval says.

That would bring the range to about 300km, which still does not, as Duval observes, “seem compatible with the challenge of flying from London to Sydney, as some legs over the sea would be well more than 500km.” Those supporting Smith’s concept for the race say this is exactly the point of it: to provide the challenge to engineers and designers to work even harder to extend the range of their aircraft by 2019.

As for Smith, he wants the federal government to come on board, not necessarily with money but with vocal support. “This would only work, like the original race, if you had the Prime Minister behind it,” Smith tells Inquirer. So far, he has been unimpressed with the government’s response. In a letter last month, Industry, Innovation and Science Minister Greg Hunt wrote to Smith, saying: “My department is unable to support the proposed race from England to Australia which is designed to spur innovation in electric powered aeroplanes.”

Malcolm Turnbull flick-passed an inquiry from Inquirer to Transport Minister Darren Chester, whose spokeswoman says: “The minister’s office has received correspondence from Mr Smith in relation to the proposed air race and the minister would be happy to have further discussions regarding the support he requires, if any, from the government.”

Smith tells Inquirer he’s been having discussions with ministers for 20 years and they very rarely actually do anything about aviation, particularly if they are, like Chester, from the Nationals. “That reflects the whole government at the moment, there is no innovation, no nothing,” Smith says. “It’s reflective of the complete lack of leadership now.”

Labor’s transport spokesman Anthony Albanese, by contrast, is all for the 2019 commemorative electric air race. “It’s a good idea and the centenary is worthy of celebration,” Albanese says. “These types of events engage public attention and the competition for victory tends to accelerate innovation in alternative technologies. I would like to see the commonwealth get behind this idea.”

Smith says he was inclined to withdraw his offer of $1m towards the air race after the responses from Hunt, Chester and Turnbull, but he may go ahead with it if Labor comes to power, given Albanese’s response.

“Labor have always been stronger on innovation,” he says.

[Flying Binghi]

via Dick Smith:
...Typical with regards to anything in relation to extending the boundaries re General Aviation.....

How will an electric air race extend the boundaries of General Aviation ?

Many of the 'boundries' of aviation are based on common sense. i.e., dont fly to far past VNE or your wings will fall off. etc..

Battery fueled Electric motors in General Aviation aircraft are merely a power plant option. At this time a very third rate power plant option.

With the present rate of battery development would not common sense suggest that the General Aviation community wait for suitable battery power packs before pissing huge amounts of money against the wall trying to make white elephants fly with green fantasy angel wings..:hmm:







.

[Stanwell]

Goodness me, Binghi.
You are a little more conservative than I'd originally thought.
I assume then, that you'll be putting up one hundred pounds prize-money to promote
a race between coal-fired, steam-powered flivvers - to be flagged off by His Excellency, Sir Tony Abbott, hmm?

[Dick Smith]

The Aussie public had very little interest in civilian aviation at the start of 1919. Billy Hughes changed that.
If our current PM had similar views he may be able to create renewed interest in Aviation.
Some members of the public are interested in motor and horse racing. This maintains a positive political momentum about these persuits.

Australia should become the world leader in flight training . May even be cheaper with electric aircraft as fuel from the solar cells on the flying club roof is low cost. And an hour of circuits followed by an hour of theory ideally suits batteries and charging,

Then again probably best to do in Canada or the USA. They are so much more astute!

[dhavillandpilot]

I'm sitting in my office looking at one of my prize possessions, an original 1934 London to Melbourne air race map with contestants ruled out with dates as they withdrew from the race.

All you people who think an all electric race won't progress aviation have little forethought or imagination.

The winners of the 1934 race was Douglas and to a lesser extent Boeing. For Douglas it proved that a stock standard DC 2 the Dutch Univer could complete such a flight with little fan fare. Similarly the Boeing 247 with col. roscoe Turner did the same.

And what was the progression, a faster and more comfortable flight from Europe thru to Asia and Australia

Now progress to 2019 and what would be the advantage, simple the cost of General Aviation flying.

I fully support Dick in his endeavours to get this off the ground. Why Turnbull cannot show some spine and simply support this idea escapes me. Even if the Commonwealth put up a prize of $1,000,000 this would be chicken feed in comparison to the publicity it would generate.

This country is now lead by spineless politicians who are only interested in self rather than country.

Sorry for the rant but I fought idiots all my life

[Ultralights]

Electric cars capable of 500km, Solar and battery combinations are now equally as cheap than grid provided power in our homes. and a government that has its fingers in its ears screaming coal coal coal...

what chance does anything remotely related to clean energy and aviation have of getting the governments attention...

[spinex]

If you think that the other mob have any greater interest in promoting what their constituents see as a hobby for rich old men, then multi-cultural, transgender pigs might levitate.

As to the race itself, yes I'd love to see it happen, but no I don't really think it is something that our government should be stumping up the funds for, in the current economic climate. Support and facilitate yes, pay for no. There are too many SJW interest groups that would use it as yet another piece of ammunition against them. Private philanthropy on the other hand, a la Kremer or Sikorsky prizes, I'd have thought that was more fertile ground for drumming up support, especially given the green tinge to the whole endeavour.

[Fris B. Fairing]

It's all about the indomitable human spirit and always has been. Dick understands that better than most.

As for a change of government, Queensland first please. The work experience girls can't even run an electric choo choo.

[Band a Lot]

Dick go to Darwin (that's where the race would end) speak with Michael Gunner the brand new Chief Minister of Northern Territory - the same place that the World Solar Challenge car race starts from (for many years now).

Hit him up for the $1,000,000 match, then tell Malcom the new innovation number is $2,000,000 unless you want me to go to every other state and territory Malcom!


You normally only need 24 hours notice to speak to Government Members and even Chief Minister here in the Territory.

[gerry111]

".. in the current economic climate."

Ever since I first voted, I've heard politicians use that as an excuse not to do something useful.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Dick, just put up the mill yourself and let them go for it. Call it the Dick Smith Electric Challenge.
Back in 1919 it was fair enough that the govt put up the cash, as it was about connecting Australia to Europe by something more efficient than the steam ship. Even by the 1934 race the prize money had to come from a private source.This is just about an alternative power plant to what is already available. An admirable target, but hardly in the general public interest. I would rather see my part of a million dollars of tax payers money go to a hospital or some such.

[Dick Smith]

Traffic. Good suggestion. Watch this space!

[Spodman]

How will an electric air race extend the boundaries of General Aviation ? Many of the... [rant, rant, whine, complain] ...would not common sense suggest that the General Aviation community wait... [declaim, pontificate, grizzle, we'll all be rooned]

I imagine if this august forum had been available to like minded technophobes in 1916, (and they didn't have anything better to do in a trench somewhere), there would have been any number of posts like this wombat's following the announcement of a race to Australia when a flight across the Channel was still a complete adventure. :)

Magnificent idea Dick, it is an undertaking that seems almost possible, and one that would a genuine triumph to the winner.

Sadly, I think you could only get the current government interested if it could be linked to a coal mining promotion...

[asw28-866]

"Sadly, I think you could only get the current government interested if it could be linked to a coal mining promotion..."

Perhaps there is a way to link in Coal. Should the project progress it would be a wonderful way to 'grandstand' the environmental impact of the various electricity generating technologies. I imagine a regularly updated graphic which charts the combined power consumption of the contestants against the greenhouse gasses emitted through electricity generation by goal, gas, solar, wind, etc. would make for sobering review.

[Flying Binghi]

via dhavillandpilot: ...The winners of the 1934 race was Douglas and to a lessor extent Boeing. For Douglas it proved a stock standard DC2 the Dutch Univer could complete such a flight...

:ooh: ... I learn sumthing new every day. I didn't realise the 1934 air race were what spurred on Douglas and Boeing to develop their passenger carrying aircraft. Just think if we never had that 1934 race there'd be no Boeing 747 or war winning DC3...:hmm:

As to the expectation that Tax Payers should pay for this latest thought bubble - I think corrupt turnBull would love to stump up other peoples money..:hmm:




.

[Arm out the window]

Smith says he was inclined to withdraw his offer of $1m towards the air race after the responses from Hunt, Chester and Turnbull

“The minister’s office has received correspondence from Mr Smith in relation to the proposed air race and the minister would be happy to have further discussions regarding the support he requires, if any, from the government.”

Yes, that response saying he would be happy to have further discussions regarding the required support is just disgraceful. Bloody government and their encouraging replies.

[dhavillandpilot]

Flying Binghi,

Sorry if you misinterpreted what I mean. Up until the 1934 race virtually all aircraft in Australia were British or derivitatives such as the Avro or Fokker tri motor. It was only after the Australians saw the DC 2 and B247 in Melbourne after the race that things changed and we started to see US built aircraft here on regular services.

These being the Locheed 10 and DC2

Dicks race concept deserves all our support, in an era of conservation and climate change what better way of showing the world Australia can take a leading role in cutting edge technology. As for those naysayers who say we shouldn't throw any money at development where would we be if the CSIRO hadn't developed WiFi, certainly not posting on Pprune

[Guptar]

Lots of academic reports available showing coal generated electricity cost around $40 per megawatt hour where as photovoltaic (soloar cells) costs $120 per megawatt hour.

So I say keep digging that coal, and keep developing (research) solar.


Edit: Found an interesting aircraft

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1g1JrRRkY

[Ultralights]

yeah, i dont think quoting energy generation needed to power elctric aircraft will work the way you think it will..

using the current cars for example. big 5 seat family saloon, uses on average 10Ltrs to travel 100km, petrol has 9kw per litre. so, to go 100Km you need to use 90Kw of petrol.

my 5 seat family SUV, electric vehicle, uses an average of 20kw of electricity to go the same 100km..

90 compared to 20.... compare the carbon produced in making 90Kw from petrol, Vs the carbon produced to make just 20kw for the EV... or the carbon produced to make just 20 kw from solar, wind, hydro?

How many Kw's will be needed to move a small aircraft 100Km compared to Avgas/Avtur/Mogas? if mogas can only provide 9kw per litre?

[gerry111]

Thanks for your fascinating link, Guptar.

(But the APS team may have a view regarding: "Shock cooling"?) :E

[rutan around]

That’s because under Smith’s plan, the 2019 air race would be restricted to a very special type of aircraft: one that has zero greenhouse emissions in flight.So far no one has mentioned any alternatives to battery/electric power. A couple come to mind. Hydrogen fueling either a fairly standard internal combustion engine or better still a fuel cell engine. To be completely zero greenhouse emissions the hydrogen would have to be made by splitting water using electricity. That electricity could be made by any one of a number of green power generators. Solar, wind, hydro, geo-thermal and wave are a few that come to mind. Dick's competition could be just whats needed to prod hydrogen storage along. We do indeed live in exciting times due much more to innovators like Dick than our leading from behind politicians.

[tail wheel]

Lots of academic reports available showing coal generated electricity cost around $40 per megawatt hour where as photovoltaic (soloar cells) costs $120 per megawatt hour.

Coal generated costs $40 per MWh = $0.04 per kWh. So why does electricity from the grid cost $0.23 per kWh?

My home solar installation cost $13,000, although prices are dropping rapidly. I have a 12.8 kWh solar storage battery and generate an average 35 kWh per day, 12,775 kWh per year, 127,750 kWh over the anticipated decade life of my solar installation = $0.10 per kWh or $101.75 per MWh.

I am paid $0.06 per kWh feed in tariff which the Government owned power generator resells for $0.23 per kWh.

What Dick is proposing is totally feasible, indeed almost "old hat"! SolarImpulse (http://www.solarimpulse.com/)flew 40,000 kms around the world in five days and nights, totally solar powered.

Just as the World Solar Challenge gave impetus to Australian solar research, so will Dick's propose electric air race foster further solar research, particularly into power output versus accumulator size and weight.

I wonder how one calculates range plus fixed and variable reserve on a sunny day? :}

Good luck with CASA allowing home built solar aircraft to fly ......... :sad:

[Tankengine]

Actually the solarimpulse took months to fly around the world!
The five days and nights was for the longest leg, Nagoya to Hawaii.

[tail wheel]

Yes, my dumb, brain in neutral.

40,000 kms in five days would be a speed of 333 KPH!

[no_one]

So a R44 has been modified to run electrically.
See here:
HeliHub.com Electric R44 takes flight (http://helihub.com/2016/10/04/electric-r44-takes-flight/)
and video here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-05wY41ht1s

While the specs on range and endurance are not that impressive there are still a lot more improvements that they could adopt in future refinements. For instance how much weight is needed in a gearbox to deal with the power pulses from an internal combustion engine? An electric motor has a smoother delivery of the torque to the drivetrain allowing lighter components.

[Flying Binghi]

Via no-one: ...While the specs on range and endurance are not that impressive there are still a lot more improvements that they could adopt in future refinements. For instance how much weight is needed in a gearbox to deal with the power pulses from an internal combustion engine? An electric motor has a smoother delivery of the torque to the drivetrain allowing lighter components.

You've gotta wonder what they were trying to prove with an electric Robinson. Every kid and his dog knows that electric helicopters work because most of them have one.

For full size probably counter rotating will be the go with the duel electric power plants set up as per the little racer referenced earlier in this thread. Gets rid of the power robbing tail rotor and gear boxes. Likely still need a sprague though.





.

[Sunfish]

What a wonderful idea! An electric aircraft race!

The obvious way to get it to happen is to suggest it to the NZ Government.

Now if it was for coal fired steam aircraft as Stanwell suggested the Australian Government would back it in a flash.

The only trouble then would be that CASA would demand certified coal, water and coal shovels.

[Flying Binghi]

via News release:
...The environmental attraction of electric aircraft is obvious — no carbon emissions in flight...

Yep, the old global warming scam is still alive..:hmm:

Although, there are now some elected representatives asking the questions that should have been asked by the inept liberal and labor politicians...

"...Senator Roberts asked CSIRO, the agency responsible for climate change to provide empirical evidence that human CO2 was causing warming or climate change. They submitted a report that failed to provide the evidence..."
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2016/11/07/the-battle-with-bureaucracies-the-main-promoters-of-the-global-warming-deception/

http://joannenova.com.au/2016/11/audit-csiro-they-lack-evidence-says-senator-malcolm-roberts/

I'm surprised that the so-called sceptic Dick Smith is not also asking questions about the economy destroying global warming scam rather then promoting further taxpayer funded waste..:hmm:




.

[Dick Smith]

The Australian Skeptics and its US equivalent are not sceptical about the claims made by most qualified scientists in relation to global warming.

However my proposal was not based on this issue . I reckon for small training aircraft that electrical operation may have some advantages . Also I was involved in the original Darwin to Adelaide Solar races. Nothing to do with global warming- just extending boundaries.

My Tesla with 0 to 100 in 3 seconds is the best fun car I have ever owned. Love to buy an equivalent aircraft.

[topdrop]

Not sure why I wasted 5 mins reading this crap

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2016/11/...ing-deception/ (https://wattsupwiththat.com/2016/11/07/the-battle-with-bureaucracies-the-main-promoters-of-the-global-warming-deception/)

http://joannenova.com.au/2016/11/aud...lcolm-roberts/ (http://joannenova.com.au/2016/11/audit-csiro-they-lack-evidence-says-senator-malcolm-roberts/)I know - it's my own fault especially since the esteemed senator is one nation. :yuk::yuk::yuk:

[Flying Binghi]

via topdrop:
Not sure why I wasted 5 mins reading this crap
Quote:
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2016/11/...ing-deception/

http://joannenova.com.au/2016/11/aud...lcolm-roberts/
I know - it's my own fault especially since the esteemed senator is one nation.


Yeh, its hard to read things aint it. No 3 minute commercial break to rest the mind between infotainment segments..:)

topdrop, I'd be interested to know which part of your 5 minute read upset you ?






.

[Flying Binghi]

via Dick Smith: The Australian Skeptics and its US equivalent are not sceptical about the claims made by most qualified scientists in relation to global warming.

However my proposal was not based on this issue . I reckon for small training aircraft that electrical operation may have some advantages . Also I was involved in the original Darwin to Adelaide Solar races. Nothing to do with global warming- just extending boundaries.

My Tesla with 0 to 100 in 3 seconds is the best fun car I have ever owned. Love to buy an equivalent aircraft.

Well, the press report cited in this thread ties it to the global warming scam.

As to those 'most qualified scientists'. Perhaps you should ask them to assist the CSIRO and BOM as they caint seem to find any evidence of claims..:hmm:

"An independent inquiry should be held into the CSIRO and *Bureau of Meteorology, which have been unable to provide empirical evidence linking human activity to climate change, One Nation’s Malcolm Roberts says.

Senator Roberts has rejected CSIRO assurances on climate science and called for a due diligence audit of the organisation’s research and methods"

Audit CSIRO: they lack evidence says Senator Malcolm Roberts « JoNova (http://joannenova.com.au/2016/11/audit-csiro-they-lack-evidence-says-senator-malcolm-roberts/)




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[Ultralights]

So, if Global warming is a scam, why is it bad thing to help leave a better cleaner environment for our kids and future? but i guess that shrinking snow fields in Australia over the past 30 years is just a co-incidence..

even if its all a scam, driving an EV car has been a godsend for my own wellbeing, less stress, no vibration, less fatigue when driving,the occasional niggling cough has gone, i actually look forward to my commute driving an EV.. not to mention love the bills from the elctricity company, even after charging an electric car every day.

now i have a wrecked electric car in the garage (2nd car), 2 electric motors,60Kw each, and a 12Kwh battery.

now to get it ino a savannah or RV airframe..

and you might want to have a look at Clifornia and its economy, the strictest greenest state in the world. and a booming economy, from green tech...

[Band a Lot]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wm1nfKk4WHg

[Ultralights]

NASA X57, a Tecnam P2006, with 14 Electric motors. already becoming a reality with Tecnam delivering the fuselage to NASA already.

http://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/styles/full_width_feature/public/thumbnails/image/sceptor_city_nasa_half_res.jpg?itok=INJT5uD3

NASA Electric Research Plane Gets X Number, New Name | NASA (http://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa-electric-research-plane-gets-x-number-new-name)

https://youtu.be/UQwhAX5woPo

[Band a Lot]

Seems the trend is for many motors for take off and climb, then shut many down.

45% max power seems best for electric to cruise - thinking tram type for take off (electric runways) cables unplug or conductor strips. Run 100% clean aircraft (flaps/gear) gain speed then climb at airport end strips detach.

[Fliegenmong]

Hmm....first thoughts were the drag from 14 failed props...but electric doesn't fail does it?, feather / fold them I guess...

[Ultralights]

but electric doesn't fail does it?, feather / fold them I guess...
I think electric motors are pretty sorted, how many run 24 hrs a day, 365 days a year in industry, reliability that can only be dreamed of with an internal combustion engine..

your fridge motor for example.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Um, your fridge motor does not run 24/7. It cycles on and off. In a good fridge, it's probably off more than it's on. Electric motors are still mechanical devices. They can and do fail.

[LeadSled]

Folks,
Here is an interesting link.

Nocookies | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/out-of-the-race-dick-smith-gifts-1m-to-charity/news-story/41fc657bcabc2f8e0787ae5b7b0e4ff3)

Tootle pip!!

[Band a Lot]

What's your login details Leady?

[Flying Binghi]

via Ultralights #34:
So, if Global warming is a scam, why is it bad thing to help leave a better cleaner environment for our kids and future? but i guess that shrinking snow fields in Australia over the past 30 years is just a co-incidence..

even if its all a scam,...


Hmmm... whats dirty about CO2 ? It is a colourless and odourless gas that is essential to life on earth. Remove CO2 from the atmosphere and the world dies.
Ultralights, if yer think CO2 is bad then i think yer been spending to much time around the greeny water cart..;)

As to scam, that is what Senator Malcolm Roberts has been trying to ascertain. As far as i know the CSIRO and BOM have failed to produce to the Senator audited evidence of claims. No proof of claims = scam in most peoples books.

Audit CSIRO: they lack evidence says Senator Malcolm Roberts « JoNova (http://joannenova.com.au/2016/11/audit-csiro-they-lack-evidence-says-senator-malcolm-roberts/)




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[Eyrie]

Electric power for long range aircraft just isn't possible at present. Energy density of batteries is too low and there are fundamental chemistry reasons why it cannot get better quickly despite there having been a tremendous amount of R&D on battery tech in the last 30 years.
That said, there are a couple of niche markets at present in self launching and self retrieving gliders where electric power is now feasible and in fact one such aircraft has been available commercially for years now (Lange Antares) with others also coming on the market. See also GP Gliders GP14 and GP15.

One place where electric is feasible right now is electric powered VTOL with conventional hydrocarbon fuel for wing borne flight. The batteries do not have to be huge and an aircraft that takes off and lands vertically can have the wing sized for cruise at huge savings in weight and drag and likewise the landing gear can be lighter.
Several companies are working on this kind of thing including Google.
I have my own favorite design sketched out and a preliminary weight analysis done.
I'd really like an electric powered VTOL seating 2 to 4 that cruises at 150 KTAS or better for several hours, with autoflight system and whole aircraft parachute with emergency deployable shock absorbing landing gear.

[onetrack]

Here is the precis of the article in the Australian newspaper, linked to by LeadSled ...

THE AUSTRALIAN - DEC 7, 2016
Businessman Dick Smith will today give $1 million to charity out of frustration with the Turnbull government, which he says failed to back his offer to provide the same amount to recreate the 1919 London-to-Darwin air race that kickstarted international air travel.

Such is Mr Smith’s disappointment that he will give the $1m he had earmarked for the air race — which would have used electric planes in the recreation to spark a new round of innovation — to the Rotary Australia Benevolent *Society.

“I’m incredibly disappointed,” he told The Australian.

In 1919, Australian prime minister Billy Hughes offered £10,000 to the first aircrew to reach Darwin from London.

“Back in 1919, people had no idea the planes that were used in World War I could actually do long distances,” Mr Smith said.

“Billy Hughes came up with the original idea and it was the start of long-distance air travel.”

“I thought wouldn’t it be great if 100 years later we did it with electrically powered planes.”

“It would be all about innovation because electrically powered aircraft can do about 300 nautical miles (now) and you need about 500. It would mean you have three years to extend the boundaries; innovate to get better storage. Which would help every bit of alternative energy.”

Mr Smith said he encountered the same problem in all his aviation dealings with government: “Nobody makes a decision.”
He said he had mentioned the project directly to Malcolm Turnbull and then wrote to the Minister for Innovation, Greg Hunt. “I can’t even remember his name he’s so dynamic — but I wrote to him and he didn’t commit himself to anything.”

“At one stage they said, ‘What do you want?’ and I said, ‘It would be great if you match the money but you don’t have to, just come with some enthusiasm for it’. But I got nothing.”

Mr Smith said the aviation community had been overwhelmingly supportive of the idea. “But no doubt the minister would have been advised, ‘Oh minister, small planes crash, I wouldn’t suggest you get involved with this.”

“They are so risk-averse and so politically correct — even with Dick Smith on side putting the money in, they couldn’t bring themselves to support it.”

“So I’m giving a breakfast talk ... at the Rotary Club of Wahroonga and then I’ll hand $1m to them.”

Yesterday, a spokesman for Mr Hunt maintained that his department’s lack of involvement was a financial issue: “We respect his initiative, but the government can’t fund every proposal for using taxpayer’s money,” the spokesman said.

“We’d be very happy for Mr Smith to provide his own funds rather than calling on taxpaying Australian families. There is no barrier to Mr Smith paying for this himself.”

Rotary Australia Benevolent Society chairman Michael Perkins said the Smith donation would allow Rotary to “mobilise projects targeted at helping those desperately needing assistance get back on their feet”.

“The impact will be felt throughout all of Australia, from cities to the outback.”

The donation is part of more than $4.1m Mr Smith is giving to charities and organisations from the sale of his Cessna Citation aircraft. He sold the plane in disgust at ever-increasing maintenance costs caused, he said, by years of industry mismanagement by both major political parties through the Civil Aviation Safety Authority. “Every time you blink, CASA comes up with a more expensive equipment to be fitted to your plane,” he said.

[Eyrie]

As for the global warming scam - if you believe in it you do need a better education. Do some research. Richard Lindzen is a good name to begin with.
After the East Anglia email release in 2009 nobody should believe the climate "scientists" are on the straight and level. They have conspired to denigrate any scientific opposition and prevent them from publishing papers that cast doubt on the CO2 caused climate change conjecture. I won't dignify it with "theory".
About the only noticeable effect of the extra CO2 (from around 300ppmv to 400 ppmv) has been a greening of the planet. Plants are still in CO2 starvation mode and more is better. No increase in hurricanes or other extreme weather, no increase in rate of sea level rise (it has been rising since the end of the last ice age and rose quickly around then as the ice melted). We are in an interglacial where the temperature has fluctuated by several degrees at various times in the last 10,000 years. The ice will be back soon enough.
You may also like to consider that NONE of the present self flagellation and self imposed energy poverty will do anything noticeable even if implemented in full, which is extremely unlikely.
Anybody serious about preventing human activity produced CO2 from entering the atmosphere should be demonstrating in the streets for coal and gas burning electric power stations to be replaced by nukes.
"Renewable" energy like wind runs on replacement windmill parts (made and transported by hydrocarbon fuels) and like solar is completely unreliable.
Consider that the only boats and aircraft powered by wind and solar nowadays are for recreational purposes only.
See South Australia recently. This will come to you where ever you live in Australia unless the current green mind virus abates.
Fortunately President Trump looks like derailing the climate gravy train and western civilisation has chance of survival.

[rutan around]

Eyrie are you for real or are you just s#*t stirring. I have never before read so much ill informed BS in one small post. It must be some sort of record.

[Flying Binghi]

via rutan around:
Eyrie are you for real or are you just s#*t stirring. I have never before read so much ill informed BS in one small post. It must be some sort of record.

Do tell rutan around. Apart from your need to place abusive posts, what is your issue with the Eyrie post ?





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[Band a Lot]

While I am not sold on Global Warming (nowadays called Climate Change {because it was not warming!})

I think all will agree that the less fossil fuels used and more renewable (clean) energy used, the result will be less pollution.


I am sure everybody would like less pollution on this planet.

[Flying Binghi]

via Band a Lot:
...I am sure everybody would like less pollution on this planet.

What "pollution" are you refering to Band a Lot ? The visual pollution of all them wind generators placed in pristine wilderness area's perhaps...




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[Dick Smith]

Here is an article 'Air race challenge: plugged in and set for a flight of fancy' in The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/air-race-challenge-plugged-in-and-set-for-a-flight-of-fancy/news-story/6971b594e7efc6d0fc7d17e3ea340095) today 12 December 2016.

Non-subscribers may need to click on this link (http://rosiereunion.com/file/Air%20race%20challenge.pdf).

[Band a Lot]

What "pollution" are you refering to Band a Lot ? The visual pollution of all them wind generators placed in pristine wilderness area's perhaps...




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I would expect the acid rains to take care of them Wind Generators over time!

Good news Dick, that's a hell of a range he is talking.

[Flying Binghi]

via Band a lot:
I would expect the acid rains to take care of them Wind Generators over time!...

"acid rains" ? Band a lot, where in Australia do we get acid rain?..:hmm:




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[Band a Lot]

Over time if you care to actually read than rant!

Countries most Affected by Acid Rain (http://acidrain2014.weebly.com/countries-most-affected-by-acid-rain.html)

Remember I said pollution - your eye sores are not pollution by definition but un sightly. Dam fine chance all Wind Generation is near populated areas in Australia so can you define Pristine?

Please read about pollution and tell me the lead content in Avgas in Australian ports???

Air pollutants (http://www.environment.gov.au/protection/air-quality/air-pollutants)

[Flying Binghi]

Over time if you care to actually read than rant!

Countries most Affected by Acid Rain (http://acidrain2014.weebly.com/countries-most-affected-by-acid-rain.html)

Remember I said pollution - your eye sores are not pollution by definition but un sightly. Dam fine chance all Wind Generation is near populated areas in Australia so can you define Pristine?

Please read about pollution and tell me the lead content in Avgas in Australian ports???

Air pollutants (http://www.environment.gov.au/protection/air-quality/air-pollutants)

Oh, one thing i do a lot of is read..:cool: ...and look at maps. Band a Lot, the maps yer linked to dont make no sense. e.g. have a look at New Zealand.

Keep in mind that the so-called acid rain scare of the 80's were shown to be thorougly overblown. Especially in the US. I'm not aware of any credible reports of acid rain here in OZ.

If yer worried about lead then i suggest you don't go to the beach as the sea spray from every wave has lead in it. And all that sea spray drys out on the beach bungalows and accumulates.... though all this has been covered in other threads.




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[Band a Lot]

Oh, one thing i do a lot of is read..:cool: ...and look at maps. Band a Lot, the maps yer linked to dont make no sense. e.g. have a look at New Zealand.

Keep in mind that the so-called acid rain scare of the 80's were shown to be thorougly overblown. Especially in the US. I'm not aware of any credible reports of acid rain here in OZ.

If yer worried about lead then i suggest you don't go to the beach as the sea spray from every wave has lead in it. And all that sea spray drys out on the beach bungalows and accumulates.... though all this has been covered in other threads.




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Personally if you do not mind lets go to Japan, my sister did a school exchange for 12 months back in about 1984. It was a family in Fukushima that now has no home, well not one they can ever live in again, but they were lucky to live!


Sunshine I did own a fuel company until recent, that still sold leaded fuel even thou 20 years prior most African countries did not sell leaded Avgas. WHY???

[Flying Binghi]

Whilst i think any electric people movers have a great future, there's still the issue of less then adequate batteries at this time. There's also the problem of the unreliable Oz power grid not being able to handle all the extra power hungry plug-ins. And thanks to the idiot greens Oz power will be third world reliable in a few short years.

For those that make their own power as per Dick Smith's idea of having a bank of solar panels to charge flying school aircraft just might run into the problem of affordable space. Many schools either rent their premises or lease from the airfield at a square metre rate. How many square metres required to fast charge an aircraft ? ...two aircraft ...three aircraft ...etc. ?

Our current avgas/kero powered fleet is doing stirling service for the farmers and many remote communities around Oz. Rubbishing the fuel source of our current aircraft fleet with false claims and repeating green hysteria just because somebody gots themselves an expensive new electric toy seems much like shooting oneself in the foot..:hmm:


via Band a Lot:
you do not mind lets go to Japan, my sister did a school exchange for 12 months back in about 1984. It was a family in Fukushima that now has no home, well not one they can ever live in again, but they were lucky to live!


Sunshine I did own a fuel company until recent, that still sold leaded fuel even thou 20 years prior most African countries did not sell leaded Avgas. WHY???


As Oz dont currently have nuclear power i'm a bit mystified what its got to do with this thread unless its to supply power to the grid that charges them electric aircraft. At any rate, there's certainly many ppruners who support nuclear power..:)

Fuel company ...and, Why ?




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