US Visa violation by New Zealander

[Roadtrip]

A naturalized New Zealand citizen is accused of entering the US for flight training without the appropriate visa. He was evasive and untruthful in his entry interview by immigration officials, then flew to Miami for training. This guy is purported to be the son of one of Sadam Hussein's mistresses. Also it was reported that the guy worked for Air New Zealand. With him was another mid-eastern extraction New Zealander.

Maybe some of our Kiwi's out there can confirm or deny. I didn't know that Air New Zealand uses Miami training companies. Something really fishy here. We'll see how it develops. One thing that is really disappointing is that the US government may deport him without criminal charges being filed.

[fullcoarse]

Heard on NZ radio this morning fellow kiwi Air NZ employee who saisthis guy was legit, and was doung flight engineer currency training on "an older aircraft which wasn't available in NZ"???

[Oleo]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/inl/index/0,1008,1258456a10,FF.html

[baronvonmildred]

Sounds like they are getting very strict on these visas or do they know something we don't? Thousands of us have done flight training whilst on tourist visa waivers.

[Pegasus77]

I had 30 mins of flight training during my last (private) stay in the US, to get checked out in a C172... I guess now I'm a criminal :D

P77

[Kubota]

I also like to "hire n fly" when I'm in the US. Does this mean I need a "student visa" when I'm in the US on an operating flight?

Aside, do you think the gent in question was arrested because of an immigration violation or because he's Saddam ("Death to the Great Satan") Hussein's stepson?

[AA SLF]

Folks - Since Sept-11 of 2001 occurred, AND the recent fact that our INS sent out visas to two of the hijackers six (6) months AFTER the event/their death!!, AND since our President has said he is going to re-organize the INS "out of existance" over the visa thing - the INS folks have gotten "on the ball" recently in a big way.

If a "Sept-11" happens in your hometown, and a Hussain relative comes to visit, you too might be a little bit "edgy".

Otherwise, this is still a great country and y'all are MORE THAN WELCOME to visit, etc.

Er - what's your last name please?? Do you spell that ALI or ALLY or is it BIN?? :)

[A-V-8R]

Baronvonmildred

Yup, they are getting very strict on visa violations in the US.

This is good and this is bad. Good for us who follow the rules, bad for the guy who gets arrested on an immigration charge.

Apparently, for legal reasons I don't fully understand, immigration violations are not subject to the same civil rights as our criminal system. There are people who have been locked up for two years without a lawyer while the goverment tries to find out what they were really up to.

It used to be that schools didn't tell Immigration when a student dropped out/left/graduated from school. Now the School computers are being crosslinked to the I.N.S. computers.
Didn't help at all when Mohammed Atta got his visa six months after 911.

A tourist visa is to tour; it is not a visa to go to flight school. Renting an airplane for a spin around the patch while on a toursist visa not the same as enrolling in an FAA approved course leading to certifications.

I would maintain that anyone on a tourist visa who enrolled in a course of instruction leading to a certification as a US FAA Airman be stripped of their license. Fruits of the Forbidden Tree; you were here on a tourist visa, not a student visa.

I'm a US citizen married to an Asian woman who jumped thru the hoops; got a Green Card, and became a naturalized citizen as soon as she could.

But she seems to be in the minority as far as I can see.

My soloution to the immigration problem here in the US is a $200 reward for every illegal immigrant you turn in, and a $400 fine for every one you turn in who is not an illegal.

Flushing New York, central Miami, San Francisco and Los Angeles would become ghost towns overnight.

[mutt]

A-V-8R

I would maintain that anyone on a tourist visa who enrolled in a course of instruction leading to a certification as a US FAA Airman be stripped of their license. Fruits of the Forbidden Tree; you were here on a tourist visa, not a student visa.

Guess that I'm busted, what address would you like me to send the certificates back to?????

Mutt.

[ironbutt57]

send him and the certs back to baghdad:mad:

['%MAC']

One must be very prudent when choosing ones parents. Perhaps this gentleman chose unwisely, and demonstrating such a disregard for such an important matter, should have his FE certificate revoked. On the other hand, he does choose to live in New Zealand, which represents a quality decision on his part. Do tenuous strings bind him to his father? Certainly, Air New Zealand would have looked into this matter with great alacrity. How quick we are to condemn, and not for ideology, for we know not his, but based on biology.

[CI300]

For what its worth.....I havnt met him in person, but I understand he is a fairly nice guy. Just unlucky with his choice of paternal father and destination. He moved here many years ago for a quite life with his family. Just another reason why I and a growing number of others avoid the U.S. whenever possible. Just not worth the trouble. Via asia to europe these days.

[Ignition Override]

C 1300: I wish we had fresh Guinness west of the Atlantic, without the bitter aftertaste.

NBC Evening News stated tonight that he is Saddam Hussein's nephew or stepson and was/is in Miami for Flt. Engineer training.

With all the attention focused on him and maybe several others who apparently don't have the correct visa, let's hope that a proportionate number of analysts and investigators keep track of others who might be much more likely to have possible links to Al Qaida or similar groups.

Do the CIA, FBI, NSA and others now have a much larger group of fully-qualified analysts than was the case last September?

[Standard_Departure]

Of course it is possible that the guy and his mother moved to NZ a very long time ago (when he was 2 years old), and that the first thing that he knew about Sadam being his father was when the US INS told him about it...

[L1011]

Have to agree with CI300. Travelling to the US right now is just too much hassle.

For the record, I am US educated, my sister lives there (naturalised US citizen) I have many close friends in that great country and even drive an American car. I am not anti-American.

I am brown-skinned and a pilot for a Middle Eastern airline. Can just see those patriotic security people "profiling" me. Don't need it thanks. Will spend my hard-earned dosh alsewhere this summer.

[Paterbrat]

Sounds like the system kicking in. The gentleman concerned being unfortunate in his stepfather (pretty obviously no choice of his). Since his real father was concerned with aviation he seems to have followed the paternal path and it appears was probably just legitimately persuing his annual recurrent training.

It is a high interest news item appearing at a time when the press is hungry for column inches and the TV news channels looking for juicy air time. The chap is of Arabic origin and worse for him that was Iraqi, not flavor much in favor in the US right now. He unfortunately also is in a profession where that is not a good combination/ asset right now particularly n the US.

The visa violation could be debatable, it appears that he complied with the requirement to fill out the new release statement before going to Aero****ices for his training. He probably felt that he did not need atudent visa as it was not an initial training. This may have been a mistake, but we have just had two instances where foreign nationals have gone to the US. One for his ATP and one for recurrent. Both complied with the requirement to inform the INS. Both were on normal visas. One was held for three hours while his details were checked then released, he was European and obviously Caucasian the other was OK. The US is on high alert and with good reason.

This man, sadly for him, may just be another victim of the fall-out of 9-11, a day that really did change the world. And some of those A**holes are still out there!

[CI300]

Allthough AIR NZ is his current employer, he had just got a new job with a freight company here in NZ (on the B727). Just watched his new boss on the evening news. His new boss confirms he was in the U.S. getting training on the B727 because a) its heaps cheaper and b) nobody around here supports 727 training anymore.

[A-V-8R]

Because of BIK_116.80 post, I have to revise my earlier assesment that he was being not tracked because of his heritage.

As I ususally travel on a shore pass or the nations good will to enter (Except for France and PRC) I'd completely forgot that some countries don't require Visa's of any kind; while I haven't researched it I'll take BIK_116.80 post as gospel.

However, the rest of the my post about cross linking Schools computers to the INS computers is true.

I also have to say that if your nationality does not require a visa for business or personal reasons for a stay of XXX days, and you're here and do get your Airmen certificates within said XXX days, there is nothing wrong with that.

I love the taste of shoe leather. As I get older and longer in tooth, I'll be able to floss my teeth with the shoelaces......

Sometimes I wonder why I post. The end result is like cleaning your guns when you're drunk; you shoot yourself in the foot!

[mcdude]

To me sounds like a case of a bona fide flight engineer, with bona fide credentials attempting to attend a bona fide training establishments bona fide four-day refresher course (check their website for details) for bona fide reasons (b727 F/E job prospect in New Zealand) coming against a system not accepting the above for various reasons some of which are legitamate but most of which are speculative against their own philosophy.

I'm certain a tourist visa is all that he required - I remain to be corrected

rgds mcdude

[Wino]

At American Airlines by unfunded government mandate we have to prove our citizenship before we can attend recurrent training.

And the methods with which we must prove our citizenship are hysterical at best. A military ID is not considered sufficient (even if it is accompanied by a "Top Secret" clearence) A CURRENT passport is required, not an expired one. or an original birth certificate with a raised seal. You may be flying a nuclear armed B-1 in the guard but that aint good enough to go training on the MD-80!

If you are not a US citizen (and we have many) that person must apply for a waiver from the department of justice. And my understanding is they must before EVERY training event.

So its okay for these people to FLY the aircraft. They just can't be trained to fly the aircraft.

Many of our pilots do not have a current passport either (The people that abhor international and just want to go back and forth from Dallas to Ohio in the their super 80) and who has their original birth certificate?... UNBELIEVABLE....

Cheers
Wino

[Trader]

In the US you are now required to have a specific VISA and security check before conducting training. A nice new bureacracy that takes 90 days (or so I am told) and requires you to authorize US government agencies to monitor your personal computer and email as well as bank account.

Call any Flight Safety Centre and ask them about the procedure.

[bpp1]

The man escorting Hussein's stepson is really Wael Wheyb(?) an Iraqi who defected to the US as a result of the gulf war. He is a former Iraqi Airways pilot and now carries a US passport. I believe a congress person helped him out in getting the passport. Wael changed his named to Wally Matthews (anyone watch Leave It To Beaver TV show) to appear more American. He is a former Kitty Hawk pilot and knows how easy it is/was to enter the US. I think someone was misled on this entry attempt.

[Knave]

I think the INS and FBI's biggest problem with this guy was the risk of the media suddenly reporting a 'Bumbling authorities' type story. The first reporter to get their hands on a scoop like that ( 'Saddams son training in Florida!') would be drooling. A lot of training in specialised areas simply isnt available outside the US, and going there to get it these days is becoming more of a chore. It used to be fun, but its getting to the point where they'll start frisking you for long fingernails.
Getting anything other than a general tourist visa for the US can be a real challenge for people in smaller countries.. the State Department types are so inefficient and straight out rude in some smaller embassies that theres hardly any incentive to sit on the hard plastic chair in The Bunker for five hours while the assistant consul takes his time approving your application, and its a fair bet youll be told to go home and come back next week. With service like this, its a fair bet a lot of people are shortcutting the system and travelling on mere tourist visas.

[Semaphore Sam]

Another poor chump caught up in hysteria. As an American citizen, I am ashamed. Europe has had terrorism for years, and has dealt with it in a grown-up fashion; it seems 'My Fellow Americans' are, as shocked children, unable to make relevant distinctions (like those 'Fox Friends' childish idiots). It's about time we grew up; before deporting all-and-sundry; a mature look at this guy's background would have determined, regardless of parentage, his seriousness as a professional crewmember. His deportation is absurd and outrageous. As an American, sir, if you see this, I apologize (at least for myself, if not for others).

[mdb3]

Semaphore Sam

I hope you are right.

[Big Dog 2]

OK I am off toFlorida to renta a motorhome for about 10 days I am a white Australian Pilot living in the UK .I have a UK and Australian ATPL I also have a US Private pilots licence issude about 12 years ago on a nother visit.
I may rent a light a/c while there to take the family for a jolly.
Also I will be in Miami and will drop in to see about 737 type rating as I hope to get a job with
Virgin Blue back in Aus one day,
Is there going to be any trouble for me and my family while there?
I know you guys in the US have the right to defend you selfs and so you should .But as said before I can go else where.
But I was look forward to this trip.

Ps any suggestions on were to go, or not to go, I pick the motor home in Orlando and have 10 days.
Also any good airports to rent say a 172 No doubt I will need a medical and checkout?

[TowerDog]

Big Dog 2:

Stop by in FLL and have a beer with the local PPRuNe crowd..

As for a 737 rating.
I bought my own years ago and can recommend a school in Texas called "Higher Power Aviation".
The owner is Mark Sterns and a good friend.

Cheers Mate.

[mutt]

Big Dog 2.

I suggest that you look at the thread in the wannabes forum regarding visas. believe that you will find that you can fly the C172 for fun on a visa waiver, but you most certainly cant do anything that results in a qualification, especially a jet rating for an aircraft above 12,500 lbs.

I will also second TD's comments about HPA and Mark Sterns, IMHO they run the best flight school that i have ever visited in the USA.

Enjoy the holiday.

Mutt

[whalecapt]

Latest from the New Zealand Herald:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?storyID=2050618&thesection=news&thesubsection=general

Further, it is now being reported that the gentleman in question had prior approval from the U.S. Department of Justice to attend the school !!

I can understand the concerns following 9/11, but the paranoia exhibited by some 'authorities' in the States these days, confirms it is no longer 'the land of the free'. :(

[ironbutt57]

sid...not so, saw reference to this guy while back....poor bloke...ya can't choose ya parents.....

[compressor stall]

Heard from a few sources of an Australian pilot who had just been given a job with Virgin Blue was heading over to the US to do his 737 endorsement a couple of months ago. He had all the right paperwork, including letters from the airline, the course provider, consulate etc.

Upon arrival, he was searched, flying docs found, he produced the letters, but to no avail. Searched again, locked in a room with illegal immigrants, then handcuffed and frogmarched thru the LA apt to the next Qantas flight departing to Aus (they rang and moved forward his return ticket date) and sent to Auckland NZ.

He was not allowed a phone call in LA, nor any consular access. The first access he had to a phone was in Auckland. The US Embassy in Australia confirmed that ALL his documentation was in order.

[skytiger]

Anyone who would like to share their immigration horror stories / problems so this issue can be pursued may email :

[email protected]

Patricia "Tiger" Brooks, Director
Tiger Lines Cargo, Ltd.

[arcniz]

It has been a strange year.

Having myself been hassled, over decades, by quite an array of officious and sometimes seriously threatening frontier (and inland) authorities encountered while traveling, I feel concern for non US-citizens who are being caught on the rough edges of the system during this period of official transition from under-controlling the US frontiers to overcontrolling them.

At this moment in time, the U.S. press seems poised to follow up and crucify any official who is caught being lax or making a bad decision that leaves a trail, so the govt. guys who want to collect their pensions are inclined to err way far on the side of caution.

As most at Pprune likely already understand, being even slightly indignant, threatening, impatient, deceptive or evasive is the best way to set off their alarm bells.

For those who have serious red - flag type issues, whether due to history, birth, or associations, the best insurance against problems is to disclose the sticky bits up front - before the fact, if possible - to relevant authorities and to people or organizations that can subsequently vouch for the disclosure. Of course, for private-minded persons, this can be difficult - for quite legitimate reasons. One can hope that ICAO or some of the U.S. Aviation organizations will eventually get in the loop to help individuals avoid and / or resolve various sorts of potential problems at the border.

Let's try to have a little sense of humor about this. It will pass soon enough as the new rules are sorted out, digested and - eventually - understood. Meanwhile, it is good theater - when you aren't the one in the box.