Poppy Petition

[cornish-stormrider]

Scuse the banality but I have on occasion been known to sign a petition or two on behalf of various things

As such I get inundated daily by email from change or 38 degrees.....

Ho hum

Today's submission was from some Tonka nav John Nichol 😂 asking to sign a protest against Fifa over the poppy furore

I thought I'd check on the prune to see if I could find a linky and as I couldn't I thought I'd highlight its existence

If it is genuinely from the Baghdad Hilton guest ( we met once at Leeming but I doubt he remembers) then can I ask those willing to sign it please - if it is from someone pretending to be John then it needs investigating pronto.

Also can anyone with better it skills than I do a linky for me ?

Cheers, an fly safe

[NutLoose]

Strangely I do actually find myself sort of agreeing with FIFA in this..

Just as a not possible example,
Suppose Al Qeada had formed a national Afghan team, were invited to a tournament and introduced a national day of mourning for their dead from 911, should they be allowed to wear a symbol on their national kit remembering their dead?
I think not, so I can understand the reluctance in all of this, allowing one sets a precedent, that said, they have allowed the poppy to be worn before and it does recognise the dead from both sides of a conflict without any politics in it all.

You could also argue under what FIFA is saying, that no team should wear their national badge or flag on their kit too.

[Wander00]

Just going by BBC News, FIFA have said no political or commercial symbols. Poppy is neither, so both teams IMHO should just go ahead. If the idiots at FIFA, who have difficulty managing their own business, complain, there is a perfect defence

[pasta]

I thought the recognised way of getting something done by FIFA was just to slip the appropriate decision maker a brown envelope...

[macmp419]

Link:

https://www.change.org/p/fifa-let-england-and-scotland-footballers-wear-their-poppies-with-pride

[Underbolt]

My personal view on poppies is that they only really mean something when worn voluntarily, but in an age where they're automatically pinned by a production assistant onto anybody appearing on television at this time of year, shoehorned into corporate/promotional material etc., they're in danger of becoming our equivalent of those small American flags that US politicians wear, i.e. only conspicuous by their absence and less meaningful than they're actually intended to be.


I bet you anything that it's not the England players themselves that actually asked to be able to wear poppies on their kit, so are effectively having the "choice" forced on them...

[Parson]

I'm with Underbolt. A Poppy should be worn voluntarily. The 3 line whip by the BBC that everyone seen on the box must have a Poppy, 3 weeks or so before Remembrance Sunday undermines the whole principle (to me). Same goes for wearing them on sports kits.

[Chugalug2]

cs:-
see if I could find a linky and as I couldn't I thought I'd highlight its existence

Well, here it is in all its glory. Immediate reaction is you'd be better off petitioning Putin to desist in his various foreign adventures. FIFA don't do democracy anyway. As has been pointed out, try presenting a brown paper envelope instead.

Totally agree with Underbolt and Parson. The point of the Poppy is Remembrance, a voluntary act or it is nothing. If I were an English player I'd be tempted to defy an edict to wear it on the field on principle, no matter what FIFA's response (if any).

https://www.change.org/p/fifa-let-england-and-scotland-footballers-wear-their-poppies-with-pride

[Shack37]

I bet you anything that it's not the England players themselves that actually asked to be able to wear poppies on their kit, so are effectively having the "choice" forced on them...


Has any member of either the England or Scotland asked not to wear the poppy?

[Chugalug2]

S37:-
Has any member of either the England or Scotland asked not to wear the poppy?

As I understand it they've all been told they can't by FIFA, so why should any of them have asked not to wear one anyway?

[Shack37]

As I understand it they've all been told they can't by FIFA, so why should any of them have asked not to wear one anyway?


Chug
My question refers to prior to the FIFA decisión. The players would have known as poppies were worn last year.

[Chugalug2]

S37. Ah, not familiar enough with the issue I'm afraid. In which case I must echo others' comments re enforced wearing. When the TV companies began to vie with one one another to sport the first presenters of the news wearing the first Poppies of the year I began to feel uneasy. Never mind if these players objected to wearing them or not, did they pay for the ones worn anyway? Do those on the TV screen always pay for those pinned on them by those in attendance, or are they provided en-masse by the British Legion to publicise their appeal?

I'm troubled about all this. Giving used to be a private transaction between you and the lady with the tray of poppies, pins, and cash tin. Now its hyped up with online fixed price brooches, enormous ones that stay on the grille of vehicles until both go to the crusher together, a means of expressing our moral superiority over those who don't sport them, and now bloody foreigners who forbid them. British moral outrage in the ascendant? Spare us, Good Lord, from that we pray...

[Danny42C]

Still, small voice: all honour to the British Legion for all the years of the Poppy Appeal - but doesn't the Government have a debt to settle ?

[Wander00]

.......and a Covenant to honour

[racedo]

As a footie fan I completely agree with FIFA on this, every country can find a reason why they wish to commemorate something.

Over the last number of years a Repulic of Ireland player born in Northern Ireland has refused to wear a poppy in Premier League game and was open and honest about it, guy is a bit of a **** but reality is he is probably one of the few who was willing to be honest on the subject.

Everybody being forced to do it means it has little meaning.

[MPN11]

1. Stuff football, FIFA and all the dirty money that swills around in its gutters.

2. Poppy is Remembrance of the Fallen, period. I'm sick of people playing the Race/Politics/Religion cards.

3. Branch Poppy Politics is a different issue, which is why we have 7 weeks off this year [and the next, etc.]

[muppetofthenorth]

@racedo, yes, other countries can find other things to commemorate. Like Ireland, who put a symbol recognising the 100th anniversary of the Easter rising on their shirts for a FiFA-sanctioned football game back in April.

I'm all for rules, but not double standards.

[The Old Fat One]

Normally I steer clear of any conversation on poppies...it brings out the weird in some people.

But I feel compelled to note...I am in complete agreement with Chug on this one :\

[racedo]

@racedo, yes, other countries can find other things to commemorate. Like Ireland, who put a symbol recognising the 100th anniversary of the Easter rising on their shirts for a FiFA-sanctioned football game back in April.

I'm all for rules, but not double standards.

https://fullfact.org/law/football-poppy-ban-fifa/

FIFA has previously allowed armbands to be worn, not shirts.

As for the Irish one, no idea, quite possibly Football Association of Ireland didn't bother to ask.

[99 Change Hands]

Typical FIFA trying to rob us of those golden memories of Charlton, Shilton and Beckham proudly wearing poppies on their shirts.

Oh, hang on a minute, no-one has ever done it before, I wonder why they want to start now, sounds a bit political to me.

Personally I take mine off at sunset on 11 November, about 3 hours before kick-off.

I still have my golden memories of St George's Day parties as a child though, now that the PC brigade have banned them.

Oh, hang on a minute etc etc

[cornish-stormrider]

Thank you gents for some interesting responses, they raised some points that I will confess I hadn't thought of.

I will agree that to force one way or the other is wrong and should a player wear or not ought to be up to their own conscience

I might actually not wear one this year, it doesn't detract from the 364 days of the year I don't wear one and the circa 200 days I think about mates no longer present or the quiet words of thanks every time I pass a war memorial
But that never stops me from buying one, maybe this year I should put a bottle of the ''fiddich on the bar so all who pass can have a wee dram for remembering

[Shack37]

I shall wear a poppy on Nov.11 as I do every year. You don´t see many where I live but I no longer get the questioning looks in the pub as all my friends and neighbours are now fully aware of what it means.:ok:

[Wander00]

pretty used to them in this part of France

[Tankertrashnav]

Personally I think that the ideal solution would be for all English and Scottish players taking part in the match to be allowed to wear a poppy - if they want to.

Once it becomes almost compulsory, as in TV presenters, etc, it becomes meaningless.

[mopardave]

I thought the recognised way of getting something done by FIFA was just to slip the appropriate decision maker a brown envelope...


now now.......play nicely! :ok:

[tarantonight]

Personally I think that the ideal solution would be for all English and Scottish players taking part in the match to be allowed to wear a poppy - if they want to.

Once it becomes almost compulsory, as in TV presenters, etc, it becomes meaningless.

A very good point TTN, particularly regarding the TV comment.

TN.

[TelsBoy]

1. Stuff football, FIFA and all the dirty money that swills around in its gutters.

2. Poppy is Remembrance of the Fallen, period. I'm sick of people playing the Race/Politics/Religion cards.

In complete agreement with this post.

[NutLoose]

I watched that FIFA official on the news this morning spouting drivel about it being just one countries mark of respect, absolute drivel, she should look at a bloody map to see who was involved in WW1

http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-war-i/maps/world-war-I-participants-map.jpg (http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-war-i/countries-involved.html)

Course of the War 1914-18. Two sides of the war. In the First World War, the Allies, which made up of 27 states including France, Britain, Russia, Italy , the United States, Rumania, Greece, Serbia and Japan, fought against the Central Powers including Germany, Austria-Hungary, Turkey and Bulgaria.

And then check how many were involved in WW2

https://miepvonsydow.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/cxl7zzc.png

Britain did not fight alone, the war also involved many countries. World War II involved 61 countries with 1.7 billion people (three quarters of the world's population). Fifty million people lost their lives and hundreds of millions people were injured.It was NEVER a symbol of one countries Fallen, but of all countries Fallen.

[MPN11]

Hmmm, NutLoose, not quite I think. It is quintessentially a British thing.Today, the Haig Fund continues to support veterans from all conflicts and other military actions involving British Armed Forces up to today. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haig_Fund

[melmothtw]

It was NEVER a symbol of one countries Fallen, but of all countries Fallen.


Nice try Nutloose

[NutLoose]

Today, the poppy has become an emblem of faith for those who have served in the U.S. military, and the wearing of poppies continues to be an annual tradition on Memorial Day. More than 25 million Americans each year wear poppies as a tribute to the war dead.Not just UK

Red poppy a living symbol of fallen soldiers - News - Bartlesville Examiner-Enterprise - Bartlesville, OK (http://www.examiner-enterprise.com/news/local-news/red-poppy-living-symbol-fallen-soldiers)

Poppies have long been used as a symbol of sleep, peace, and death: Sleep because the opium extracted from them is a sedative, and death because of the common blood-red color of the red poppy in particular. In Greek and Roman myths, poppies were used as offerings to the dead.[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poppy#cite_note-autogenerated1-4) Poppies used as emblems on tombstones (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headstone) symbolize eternal sleep. This symbolism was evoked in the children's novel The Wonderful Wizard of Oz (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wonderful_Wizard_of_Oz), in which a magical poppy field threatened to make the protagonists sleep forever.[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poppy#cite_note-autogenerated1-4)
The poppy of wartime remembrance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remembrance_poppy) is Papaver rhoeas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papaver_rhoeas), the red-flowered corn poppy. This poppy is a common weed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weed) in Europe and is found in many locations; including Flanders (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flanders), which is the setting of the famous poem "In Flanders Fields (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Flanders_Fields)," by the Canadian surgeon and soldier John McCrae (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McCrae). In Canada, the United Kingdom, the United States, Australia, South Africa and New Zealand, artificial poppies (plastic in Canada, paper in the UK, Australia, South Africa, Malta and New Zealand) are worn to commemorate those who died in war. This form of commemoration is associated with Remembrance Day (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remembrance_Day), which falls on November 11. In Canada, Australia and the UK, poppies are often worn from the beginning of November through to the 11th, or Remembrance Sunday if that falls on a later date. In New Zealand and Australia, soldiers are commemorated on ANZAC day (April 25),[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poppy#cite_note-Seal2004-7) although the poppy is still commonly worn around Remembrance Day. Wearing of poppies has been a custom since 1924 in the United States. Miss Moina Michael (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moina_Michael) of Georgia is credited as the founder of the Memorial Poppy in the United States.[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poppy#cite_note-8)[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poppy#cite_note-BookInc2003-9)[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poppy#cite_note-United_States_of_America_Congressional_Record-10)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poppy

[Mil-26Man]

It was NEVER a symbol of one countries Fallen, but of all countries Fallen.


Which is precisely the reason why the FAs of all 61 countries that took part in the War are demanding that their teams be allowed to wear poppies....oh, wait.

[melmothtw]

The Bartlesville Examiner-Enterprise? Give it up Nutloose ;-)

[NutLoose]

Its a superior paper, :p but I did say at the very start I do agree in principal at what they are getting at, I just thought the FIFA female on the news this morning didn't know what she was talking about and hadn't the correct facts, as for giving her a bung, I think it would of had to be the other way round.:p

[MPN11]

On my desk right now I have a "Buddy Poppy", acquired/donated for at a Craft show in Virginia. It has a tab on the stalk saying "Proceeds to the Veterans of Foreign Wars for Veterans Assistance Programs."

http://www.vfw.org/community/community-service/buddy-poppy
Doesn't make it a Haig Poppy, of course. And they were a year late ;)

[ShotOne]

What's really the point of a petition on this; will it suddenly transform FIFA into a reasonable bunch of people? Let's just wear our poppies and that's it.

[Heathrow Harry]

God - the B'ville Examiner-Enterprise...

Famous for running "tito Dead" stories for years before he expired

Nut must work for Phillips Petroleum.........

[topgas]

I was walking through Wembley yesterday on the way to the Barbarians South Africa rugby when our group was stopped by an old lady who asked where we got our poppies, as she hadn't managed to find one. It seems Wembley is a poppy free area

[NutLoose]

Wearing a poppy is and should always be a personal choice, the press berating anyone in the media or politicians for not wearing one is just plainly wrong and actually degrades the meaning of the symbol.
It should be a personal choice to honour the fallen by wearing a poppy, not a requirement, service personnel actually do this at the raising and lowering of the Flag day in day out, not once a year.