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evansb
27th Oct 2016, 02:01
Marijuana is not a problem. Why do most of the world's nation states insist it is?

vapilot2004
27th Oct 2016, 02:12
It has always been considered a gateway drug. Alongside that belief, there are US DOJ criminal statistics that state 40% of males arrested in the US have cannaboids in their bloodstream, supporting the idea that that bong hit led to a life of crime (smoking a joint can land you in the joint).

After alcohol, marijuana is the second most common substance found in drivers of cars involved in fatal accidents in the US. Then there is the argument that marijuana use supports gangs, cartels, and even terrorism. The final claim could be made moot were it to be legalized. I wonder if providing terrorists with marijuana (and some loose women) might calm their irrational asses down a notch or so.

Full disclosure: I don't have an opinion either way on this, and have seen both sides of the argument for and against legalization. My better half has been known to partake in her younger days. I prefer to kill my brain cells the old fashioned way, with a nice glass (or three) of whisky.

evansb
27th Oct 2016, 02:44
Indeed. At the end of the U.S. Prohibition of Alcohol signing ceremony, a Supreme Court Justice was heard to say, "...Okay, you I'll give you booze, but we retain the illegality of marijuana!"..

It was a mere bargaining chip...and the beginning of hundreds of thousands of criminal arrests and subsequent personal criminal records.

RatherBeFlying
27th Oct 2016, 02:46
Marihuana possession charges were a favored way to criminalise dark skinned youfs until the '60s when it became fashionable among lighter skinned youfs when morphing into a way to criminalise the counterculture.

TWT
27th Oct 2016, 02:53
From my observations,some people can handle it (even doing complex tasks) while others cannot and just stare at a wall for a few hours.

I've never heard of anyone committing a violent crime under the sole influence of marijuana,although my experience is from long ago.

Some of the newer, concentrated forms can be bad for you.A brother of a friend ended up in a psych ward briefly after using a very concentrated form of it.

tartare
27th Oct 2016, 05:27
Young mate starts smoking dope at school.
His dope smoking friends go on to become med techs at a hospital.
Get into the nitrous and other stuff.
My mate shifts into their inner city flat.
Whaddya know - there's a baker living next door?!
Try this...
Two years later he robs his Dad's work, trying to steal something to sell to support his habit.
Court - diversion - rehabilitation.
When I last saw him - he looked shit - was clean but he and his partner had hep... and a kid.
Life = ******.
Don't tell me nothing's wrong with dope.
Try it once or twice when you're old enough and smart enough to know better.
Then walk away... my two cents worth.

Flying Binghi
27th Oct 2016, 07:34
Hmmm... when i were a yoof i thought that mary jane stuff were good... when others were taking it that is.

As an ardent motor cyclist in me teens and 20's i liked to ride at 99+% all the time. Unfortunately i weighed out at a fat free 103Kg (now i'm a more fat then muscle 103Kg) and were unable to compete with the 70Kg 'jockeys'. So seeing other riders get going on the dope and how they lost their edge thus allowing me to dominate the scratching runs certainly were a lesson about the stupidity of smoking dope..:)

I took my clear headed 'edge' to some interesting fixed wing and Helicopter flying and left the Dopesters to their misery...:cool:




.

meadowrun
27th Oct 2016, 08:57
Many who drink alcohol do not handle it well and get into the problems associated with excessive drinking. There is no upgrade to liquor except perhaps drugs.
I have known of many (vast majority) who smoke marijuana who never progressed to "hard" drugs. Some do but not as many, IMHO, as is propagandized by politicians and media.
That said, neither is appropriate when operating any type of machinery or doing complex or critical tasks.
Recreationally, it is no worse than a few belts, probably better given the health problems and violence associated with alcohol. Mellow is a good descriptor. It's a plant and before anyone jumps in, a "non-lethal" plant variety. Also makes some very good rope.

Andy_S
27th Oct 2016, 09:06
What about the mental health problems caused by regular use of the more potent strains of marijuana? Not only do they actually cause harm to the user, but the rest of us have to pick up the tab for their care.

Evanelpus
27th Oct 2016, 09:42
Marijuana is not a problem. Why do most of the world's nation states insist it is?

Mate, you are talking bollocks and need to be told this.

My step daughter has severe mental health issues which doctors have attributed to the use of the weed over a period of many years.

I hope it never affects your family as it has ours.

alwayzinit
27th Oct 2016, 09:45
Indeed Andy S!
My son and I were debating the pros and cons, right and wrongs of the "weed".
He like many at Uni dabbled in some smoking and found it enjoyable and mellow. His argument went something like "Have you EVER seen 2 weed users having a full on punch up outside a bar on a Saturday night?" etc etc.
My, fatherly, logic to one who wants a military flying career was simple, "Its illegal, dont do it. The booze v weed debate is irrelevant! You get a criminal record and POOF! there goes your plan!
The new more designed strains are, without doubt, beyond any foreseen horizon of high from my day and do mess around with the brains chemistry. NOT GOOD!
However, there are, without doubt, medical benefits to be had from the weed and its derivatives.
Cannabis oil put into hand cream for those suffering arthritis works, as does impregnated tampons for ladies who suffer chronic Period Pain. Those with MS also benefit from cannabis's properties.
Personally I would rather use a natural substance than a manufactured chemical drug. But again if its illegal the choice is mute.
That said British Sugar have been given licence to grow cannabis in industrial quantities for medical use at last!

VP959
27th Oct 2016, 09:52
Arguably, if we'd never made marijuana illegal in the first place, but had licensed it, like alcohol, we would not have anywhere near the level of drug-related issues we currently have.

I don't think I know anyone who hasn't smoked a bit of weed at some point in their lives, I certainly did for several years when I was a lot younger, in fact I only stopped when I gave up smoking in my 30's. Back then the really potent stuff hadn't been selectively bred, though, and I can say that, for me, marijuana was almost certainly less harmful than alcohol and most probably less addictive.

I don't drink often, but I do look forward to a drink. I have no craving for marijuana and never have had; my addiction back then was to nicotine in cigarettes (and joints........).

The oft-stated link between marijuana use and moving to more harmful and addicitve drugs is almost entirely down to marijuana being illegal. The suppliers of marijuana are also the suppliers of cocaine, heroin, amphetamine etc, etc. Those suppliers have a very strong interest in persuading marijuana users to try an addictive drug, I've experienced this myself many years ago, and I doubt it has changed.

Now that some US states have made marijuana legal, we should see whether it is really worse than alcohol or tobacco in terms of its impact on human health. My feeling for many years was that it was a hell of a lot less harmful than either tobacco or alcohol, but that's just based on my personal experience, and has no scientific support.

The Dutch seem to be able to allow limited marijuana use without it causing them any significant problems, and have been doing so for decades now. Perhaps it's time we made it legal and freed up police resources that are currently arresting marijuana users for more serious duties.

ExXB
27th Oct 2016, 09:58
Any addiction can be treated successfully. Look at Portugal, look at Switzeland. While some addicts never become clean they can still have a fruitful and productive life.

Or they can live in the gutter, abandoned by society, stealing to pay for their next fix, supporting organised crime and terrorism, dependent on social services, raising costs for policing, the courts and jails and prisons.

There is little evidence that marijuana is a gateway to hard drugs. See: Is Marijuana Really a ?Gateway Drug?? (http://www.factcheck.org/2015/04/is-marijuana-really-a-gateway-drug/)

Treating drug addiction as an illness, rather than a crime would produce significant benefits to society and to taxpayers. But the desire is to punish drug users rather than help them.

alwayzinit
27th Oct 2016, 10:09
Quite agree VP, however, hindsight is always 20/20.............

The decriminalizing of cannabis in various US states is far from clear and simple.
Firstly cannabis is still Federally illegal so those who grow, legally in a permitting state, are unable to use a commercial bank account (as the Banks are Federally Regulated!)
Moving a commercial crop across interstate borders, regardless of whether the 2 states are allowing cannabis, is a Federal Crime.
All in all the current situation in the US is a complete mess!
The Federal Agencies all want a slice of the revenue generated by the legal weed industry but are tying themselves up in knots as they do not want to Federally legalise the stuff!
Without doubt, as usual, many of the law makers have deep seated uniformed views or are at the voting beck and call of voters who do, for the frankly silly current situation to be rationalised any time soon.
So the Mexican gangs will keep smuggling, the DEA will keep NOT stopping said smuggling, innocents will keep dying and those who REALLY NEED the benefits of cannabis's magical properties will be made criminal or not depending which state they are in at the time.:ugh:
Truly FUBAR!

tartare
27th Oct 2016, 10:09
Sure - there's nothing wrong (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/marijuana-reveals-memory-mechanism/) with prolonged usage.
I think not.
And the point made by a previous poster is a very good one.
The man with the short haircut behind the desk at LAX aint gonna give a rats arse about your theories on dope when you try to get into the country with a drug conviction.
And - aviation content apologies - I wonder how many fast jet pilots are dope smokers?
Yes, I didn't think so... ;)

alwayzinit
27th Oct 2016, 10:19
"I wonder how many fast jet pilots are dope smokers?"
TBH I think that depends on how badly they had the living Be'Jesus scared out of them.................................................!!
However, your point is spot on, one should NEVER confuse logical with LEGAL!!:rolleyes:

VP959
27th Oct 2016, 10:37
Quite agree VP, however, hindsight is always 20/20.............

The decriminalizing of cannabis in various US states is far from clear and simple.
Firstly cannabis is still Federally illegal so those who grow, legally in a permitting state, are unable to use a commercial bank account (as the Banks are Federally Regulated!)
Moving a commercial crop across interstate borders, regardless of whether the 2 states are allowing cannabis, is a Federal Crime.
All in all the current situation in the US is a complete mess!
The Federal Agencies all want a slice of the revenue generated by the legal weed industry but are tying themselves up in knots as they do not want to Federally legalise the stuff!
Without doubt, as usual, many of the law makers have deep seated uniformed views or are at the voting beck and call of voters who do, for the frankly silly current situation to be rationalised any time soon.
So the Mexican gangs will keep smuggling, the DEA will keep NOT stopping said smuggling, innocents will keep dying and those who REALLY NEED the benefits of cannabis's magical properties will be made criminal or not depending which state they are in at the time.:ugh:
Truly FUBAR!
What a barking mad situation!

So growers, suppliers and users in a legal state have to conduct wholly cash transactions, cannot put their funds into any bank, etc?

Truly, truly, mad............

cattletruck
27th Oct 2016, 10:53
I used to think marijuana was not a problem, until me and my travel buddy were offered a joint in a country where the penalty for being caught was 10 years jail.

My travel buddy smoked it quickly to remove the evidence but before the joint took effect he made a casual remark that he gets a bit sensitive under the influence.

What an understatement!

I found the person whom I had hooked up with to backpack a sector over Europe with had suddenly changed and was trying to kill himself under some delusional schizophrenic episode. It was one of the most scariest moments of my life as I was responsible for allowing the dealer to peddle his wares in the first place. I stuck with this dude all night never letting him out my sight and restraining when needed until the effects finally wore off.

Some people just cannot handle marijuana period.

Had another similar experience with a marijuana smoker at a farm near Rockhampton, sad as it was it actually turned into one of the funniest stories of my life - I may just tell it here one day.

VP959
27th Oct 2016, 11:16
I used to think marijuana was not a problem, until me and my travel buddy were offered a joint in a country where the penalty for being caught was 10 years jail.

My travel buddy smoked it quickly to remove the evidence but before the joint took effect he made a casual remark that he gets a bit sensitive under the influence.

What an understatement!

I found the person whom I had hooked up with to backpack a sector over Europe with had suddenly changed and was trying to kill himself under some delusional schizophrenic episode. It was one of the most scariest moments of my life as I was responsible for allowing the dealer to peddle his wares in the first place. I stuck with this dude all night never letting him out my sight and restraining when needed until the effects finally wore off.

Some people just cannot handle marijuana period.

Had another similar experience with a marijuana smoker at a farm near Rockhampton, sad as it was it actually turned into one of the funniest stories of my life - I may just tell it here one day.
I think the main problem here is that, because marijuana is illegal and unregulated, and very closely tied in with the manufacture and distribution of many other drugs, the producers have been breeding very potent strains.

Certainly the stuff from Afghanistan and Morocco that was all that was available years ago, before the hydroponic revolution, was extremely mild in terms of its effects. Over the 15 years or so that I smoked it, I can never recall anyone getting anything other than a bit mellow, perhaps with a fit of the giggles from time to time.

Would these very potent strains have been bred if marijuana had been legal and licensed, like alcohol? I doubt it, as there wouldn't have been a real incentive to do so, and anyway, if it were licensed then there would be a means of exerting some control over what was available.

Based on my experience, I'd say that 99% of users would much prefer to buy the stuff legally. I have a friend who buys marijuana for his wife (she has MS) and he lives in fear of the dealers that supply him. The drug world is a pretty vicious place, and I think a large part of that is down to making relatively harmless drugs, like the original forms of marijuana, illegal.

On the subject of making things illegal, I recently came across another example where a new law may well have unintended consequences. For a couple of years I've been using a herbal remedy to combat the symptoms of IBS. It's been very effective, despite my general scepticism of herbal remedies in general. Earlier this year this herb became illegal, under the blanket ban the government imposed on all "psychoactive substances". I should stress that the herb I was using was not in any way psychoactive as far as I could tell, all it did for me was prevent stomach cramps very effectively.

Anyway, I couldn't buy it any more, and the cramps returned (not fun, as anyone who suffers from IBS can testify). It's not illegal to possess the banned substances under the new act, just an offence to import and sell them. So, I decided to see if I could still get the stuff.

It turned out to be dead easy to buy it on line, and cheaper, as there was no VAT! However, the really disturbing bit is that the same website offering this herb was also offering a very wide range of drugs, from amphetamines through to benzodiazapines and hallucenogens. I could as easily have bought 500 very addictive tablets as I could a few hundred grammes of the herb, which is really pretty scary.

These websites have sprung up as a consequence of the new law, but are many times worse than the "head shops" that the government intended to shut down for selling "legal highs". Sadly, I can foresee that instead of a few deaths from "legal highs", we'll now see many hundreds of people addicted to much more harmful drugs bought from these web sites, plus, I suspect, more deaths. If ever there was a good example of the "law of unintended consequences", then this is it.

DirtyProp
27th Oct 2016, 11:56
There is little evidence that marijuana is a gateway to hard drugs.
Several years ago I witnessed a good friend of mine progressing from "occasional joint smoker" to "everyday user" to "many joints a day user" to "cocaine user and dealer".
Enough evidence for me to never, ever use that shiite and never condone it.

VP959
27th Oct 2016, 12:08
Several years ago I witnessed a good friend of mine progressing from "occasional joint smoker" to "everyday user" to "many joints a day user" to "cocaine user and dealer".
Enough evidence for me to never, ever use that shiite and never condone it.
But was that progression driven by the ready availability of cocaine from the same supplier as he was getting marijuana from?

My experience (admittedly from many years ago) was that illegal drug dealers were ALWAYS trying to get users to try new drugs, or something different. It's why they acquired the name "pusher", because they literally pushed new drugs out to their customers, often giving free samples initially to get them hooked.

We don't see tobacco smokers graduating to marijuana, then cocaine or whatever, neither do we see drinkers following such a path, yet we know, beyond any doubt at all, that both tobacco and alcohol are highly addictive.

PLovett
27th Oct 2016, 12:21
The illegality of drugs such as marijuana, opiates and cocaine has more to do with one Harry Anslinger and the government of the day attempt to control immigration from Mexico and China.

He falsified research into the effect of drugs (it was he that created that infamous movie clip that ostensibly showed the effect of marijuana was to release all inhibitions). He got the US government to put pressure on other countries to outlaw drugs; he threatened doctors in certain states within the US where narcotics were prescribed with being deregistered unless they stopped.

The amazing truth about most illicit drugs is that for most people they are not physically addictive. Psychologically addictive, yes and that is the reason people become addicts. The main reason why addicted people take drugs, and you can include alcoholic in this, is to escape their day to day reality. These people hate their existence and drugs take them out of it, briefly.

If opiates were addictive then every person who has a major operation would come out of hospital as an addict as the pain medication is basically a form of heroin. There are some who do become addicts but that is for the reason I stated above but that is a very small number of the total who receive pain medication.

Now another amazing truth about illicit drugs. There are more people in the community taking drugs than you can possible realise. They are not addicts, they can stop taking them at will. At best estimate the people who are addicts are about 10% of users.

Our image of a drug user is the diseased looking, dirty, street living derelict begging, stealing for their next hit. We think that the drugs have done that to them and in one sense it has but it is not the direct effect of the drugs. It is because the person is spending all their energy and what money they have on drugs that food and personal cleanliness take a distant second place and eventually their health breaks down.

Finally, the drug laws have made very rich people out of criminals. So wealthy that when Nevada was holding out against making drugs illegal, the biggest lobbyists for prohibition were the local criminal gangs. It was a no-brainer for them as they had seen what happened in other states.

The "war on drugs" (one of the most incredibly stupid phrases ever devised by a government) is lost and cannot be won. In those countries where drug taking has been decriminalised and the resources put into helping those addicted rather than penalising them there has been a major decrease in drug taking. The results have been quite amazing. Initially drug use go up marginally but when the rehabilitation takes effect use goes down, way down.

Yes, I believe there are some very dangerous drugs out there that should be banned, meth-amphetamines for example; some of the designer drugs being concocted for those who think altering their reality is going to be fun. Alcohol has probably done more damage than all other drugs put together and nicotine which is truely physically addictive are not and most likely never will be banned.

However, if we are not going to outlaw alcohol or nicotine then it is being hypocritical to continue to outlaw marijuana, heroin or cocaine. In any event, the extent of damage being done to countries by the continuing criminal activity to supply them should lead people to demand a change. For completeness, I enjoy a glass or two of wine and the occasional beer. I don't smoke nicotine and once tried marijuana in a country far from here. It did nothing for me and I have never wanted to try it again.

ShyTorque
27th Oct 2016, 12:26
I don't think I know anyone who hasn't smoked a bit of weed at some point in their lives,

Some of us have never smoked anything at any point in their lives.

charliegolf
27th Oct 2016, 12:48
et we know, beyond any doubt at all, that both tobacco and alcohol are highly addictive.

Alcohol highly addictive? I drank most nights in college, followed by drinking plenty in the air force. I was not addicted then, and I'm not now. I don't think I know anyone who is!

VP959
27th Oct 2016, 13:10
Alcohol highly addictive? I drank most nights in college, followed by drinking plenty in the air force. I was not addicted then, and I'm not now. I don't think I know anyone who is!
Alcoholics Anonymous would say that alcohol can be very addictive for some people, and my view is that it is probably only some people who have a propensity to addiction anyway.

I worked with a bloke years ago who was, without a doubt, dependent on alcohol to function. He had stashes of booze all over the place, hidden in innocuous looking containers, to make sure he could stay "topped up" all day at work. I've no doubt in my mind that he was an alcohol addict. Whether it was a "psychological addiction" or a "physical addiction" is a moot point, as the outcome was the same.

I suspect that I could become alcohol dependent, and have suspected it for years. At one time I found it very hard to go for a day without a drink, yet never really drank to excess. Even now I have to consciously keep track of my drinking, making sure I have alcohol-free days and never consume more than a glass of wine or a pint or two of beer. Any more and I'd be back to wanting to drink more, and probably every day.

DirtyProp
27th Oct 2016, 13:31
But was that progression driven by the ready availability of cocaine from the same supplier as he was getting marijuana from? My experience (admittedly from many years ago) was that illegal drug dealers were ALWAYS trying to get users to try new drugs, or something different. It's why they acquired the name "pusher", because they literally pushed new drugs out to their customers, often giving free samples initially to get them hooked.

I honestly have no idea.
I never questioned him about that, I just saw the effects and that was enough for me.

We don't see tobacco smokers graduating to marijuana, then cocaine or whatever, neither do we see drinkers following such a path, yet we know, beyond any doubt at all, that both tobacco and alcohol are highly addictive.

As far as I know there are no different types of nicotine, just one.
Basically there are no choices, besides the different tobaccos, flavors, etc.
Same goes for alcohol.
The alcohol you find in a great Chianti is the same you get in a nice whisky (I think), except for more quantity.
There is no step-up, so to speak.

ExXB
27th Oct 2016, 14:54
The reality is that whatever we are doing it isn't working. Would we be any worse off trying other things, that just might work?

That is, if we can ever define our objective.

VP959
27th Oct 2016, 15:50
The reality is that whatever we are doing it isn't working. Would we be any worse off trying other things, that just might work?

That is, if we can ever define our objective.
That's my view, and has been for decades. The evidence shows that allowing controlled availability of marijuana hasn't led to increased harder drug abuse; it seems that the "stepping stone to harder drugs" argument isn't justified by the substances themselves. I'm firmly of the view that when "soft" drugs like marijuana have to be purchased illegally, then the purchasers are exposing themselves to sellers who want to sell them harder drugs. Take away that link and many marijuana users will, like smokers and drinkers, just stick to what's legally available.

There will always be a small number of people who abuse drugs, just as there are a small number who abuse alcohol. My own view is that some of this is caused by the nature of our society - for example, Ireland has a significantly greater drug abuse problem than we do.

ExXB
27th Oct 2016, 16:32
And, unlike nicotine or alcohol, marijuana has numerous medical benefits. My sister, who has fibromyalgia, would like to access a source of MJ without the active ingredient (THC) of a certain quality and dosage. She can get the 'prescription' but not the product.

racedo
27th Oct 2016, 17:22
Some of us have never smoked anything at any point in their lives.

Boring git....................... oh wait that applies to me too:)

Seen more than my fair share of school acquaintances easily seduced into dope and then other stuff, few dead from going on further, few alive but really f*****D in the head.

VP959
27th Oct 2016, 18:26
And, unlike nicotine or alcohol, marijuana has numerous medical benefits. My sister, who has fibromyalgia, would like to access a source of MJ without the active ingredient (THC) of a certain quality and dosage. She can get the 'prescription' but not the product.
It does indeed. Earlier I mentioned a friend who buys it for his wife, who has MS.

Imagine, if you will, a bloke nearing 70, former fairly senior officer, who has to resort to buying deals in the back streets of our local city from dodgy dealers, just to alleviate some of the worst symptoms of his wife's illness. It seriously scares him every time he has to do it, but he feels he has no choice.

He bakes cakes for her with it in, and it has a dramatic effect on reducing her leg tremors and allowing her a decent nights sleep, something that none of the prescription medications seem to have been able to do.

vapilot2004
27th Oct 2016, 19:13
The reality is that whatever we are doing it isn't working. Would we be any worse off trying other things, that just might work?

That is, if we can ever define our objective.

The US-led "war on drugs" has been an utter failure. We've managed to enrich cartels and enable both gangs and users with the 'incarcerate rather than rehabilitate' policy that is wisely not pursued by our British and European friends.

The upshot is, the drug war been really good for our private prison sector and as a bonus, helps keep the population of minorities under the broad thumb of prehendit in iustitia, not to mention, sticking it to those pesky Latin American nations south of our lily white border. :rolleyes:

jolihokistix
28th Oct 2016, 06:20
"Marijuana is not a problem".


So, to summarize so far: "Marijuana is a benefit for some, and not a problem for some, (at least not perceived to be); for some it's not a problem until it does become a problem, and for others it is a problem."

meadowrun
28th Oct 2016, 06:36
Just like alcohol.
Does anyone expect the (insert country) prohibition?

porch monkey
28th Oct 2016, 08:00
Yeah, no problem. Let's make all drugs legal. Be good to put the drug cartels and importers out of business. Only one condition however, YOU are personally responsible, both for the cost and the consequences of whatever actions you carry out while in your drug F2cked stupor. No discounts at court, no discounts from the costs of the damage that you do, and no public health money for you.

VP959
28th Oct 2016, 10:15
Yeah, no problem. Let's make all drugs legal. Be good to put the drug cartels and importers out of business. Only one condition however, YOU are personally responsible, both for the cost and the consequences of whatever actions you carry out while in your drug F2cked stupor. No discounts at court, no discounts from the costs of the damage that you do, and no public health money for you.
Like we pretty much do at the moment for alcohol-induced crime, you mean?

The exception here is that the NHS still gives treatment for alcohol-induced illnesses, but there has been a fair bit of debate recently as to whether, for example, an ongoing alcoholic should be a priority over a non-alcoholic when it comes to things like a liver transplant.

ExXB
28th Oct 2016, 10:57
I'm certainly not advocating unrestricted access to 'drugs'. However I do advocate that in treating drug addiction, as circumstances warrant, addicts be given access to the drugs they are addicted to. The drug pushers would hate this, but who cares?

Some drugs, such as marijuana, should be no more (nor no less) restricted than alcohol or nicotine.

cattletruck
28th Oct 2016, 11:17
We will always have people that are victims of their vices be it marijuana, alcohol, cigarettes, gambling, hard-drugs, speeding, sex, religion, money, etc, etc.

I reckon the depth of the problem is directly related to how selfish the individual with the problem is - it's a facet of the modern world.

VP959
28th Oct 2016, 11:48
We will always have people that are victims of their vices be it marijuana, alcohol, cigarettes, gambling, hard-drugs, speeding, sex, religion, money, etc, etc.

I reckon the depth of the problem is directly related to how selfish the individual with the problem is - it's a facet of the modern world.
I'm in 100% agreement with this.

My primary concern is that by making substances illegal we create a criminal opportunity to supply them, and that in turn leads to more criminal activity related to people trying to acquire the means to buy the substances illegally.

Supplying relatively harmless substances, like marijuana, legally, rather like the way that we control some over-the-counter drug sales, would almost certainly bring the street price down, and that in turn would reduce the revenue stream for illegal suppliers.

As ExXB mentioned, allowing addicts to be given legal access to the drugs they are addicted to (and only addicts, in my view) would also reduce the income stream for the criminals who supply them.

I don't believe that any amount of policing is going to make one jot of difference to the availability of illegal substances. I pretty much proved this by being able to find a supply of a now-banned herb within an hour of doing some internet searches. In the process I found suppliers willing to sell any sort of drug, guns, even commit assassinations for you, all anonymously, arranged over the web and paid with a near-anonymous currency (bitcoin). As previously mentioned, I was pretty shocked by what I found. I'm pretty disciplined, so would only use such a service to get the herb that helps my IBS, but I can easily see that someone younger and more adventurous might be tempted to buy some of the pretty cheap illegal drugs that were freely on offer, or might even be tempted to buy a gun this way (there were lots for sale, none too expensive, either).

Clearly I'm not going to say here exactly how I found these suppliers, but can say that I was helped by a newspaper article from a few months ago that described the process. I can also say that possession of the herb I use for treating IBS is not an offence under the new Psychoactive Substances Act, so I feel relatively safe just having some around. My GP also knows about this treatment, and has done for a couple of years, which may help if they ever change the law to make possession illegal. The law is only broken when buying the stuff, but even then my understanding is that it is the supplier who is committing the offence, rather than the buyer (I may be wrong, but, TBH, it's such a secure process I feel pretty safe about it).

Flash2001
28th Oct 2016, 12:22
Unscientific personal observation is that some people can handle it and some can't. I judge myself to be one that can't so I stay the hell away from it. I have noticed some distortion of the sense of time among some users (Very early braking for red lights etc.) I wonder if there is any way to tell how much a driver or machinery operator is affected. I'd like to see an 8 hour toke to drive rule but how might it be enforced? On the subject of stronger drugs: I believe that a study done in New York in the 30s showed that morphine/heroin addicts who could afford the drugs without turning to crime were mostly normally functioning human beings and tended to withdraw voluntarily and without symptoms after 10 to 20 years on the drug.

After an excellent landing etc...

ImageGear
28th Oct 2016, 12:41
I have a good friend with progressive SLE Lupus - the pain is excruciating and prescriptive medication has virtually no effect. Some relief can be obtained using marijuana oil but of course it is not available legally so what do you do. What would anyone do?. The only option is to find someone who makes it in their kitchen and then buy it at grossly inflated prices.

Not producing and distributing medicinal quality oil under controlled conditions is a sentence of death by pain for a lot of people.

Imagegear

racedo
28th Oct 2016, 13:20
Read a series of articles in last 10 years that discussed usage of drugs both legal and illegal.

One of the articles started talking of Zombies, it was a definite headline grabber but author was being quote serious in its use.

Their view was at a point in time of a major event (war / civil breakdown etc) where supply of both legal and illegal were constrained he examined what would occur.

He was looking on basis of US solely and indicated that circa 50% of US population were on some kind of drug (often addictive) , most people probably have 1-2 weeks supply maximum.

End of supply and you have potentially millions of people going Cold Turkey at same time desperate as he described it for the next "Fix" or seeking a new supply with its own mental stresses.

Indicating that from a clinical perspective seeing a single patient going Cold Turkey off drugs or Alcohol immediately was hard, a facility he had worked at needed a team of people and often had to restrain people to get them through it.

He indicated seeing 20,000 people in a city of 50,000 doing it pretty much guaranteed full civil insurrection and a thinning out of the population rapidly.
Also as drug use pretty much was right through society then there would likely be no Civil or Military functions exercising control hence anarchy.

I not sure author was completely correct but lot of his viewpoints were close to the mark.

meadowrun
28th Oct 2016, 13:37
Yes, and the sky would fall.

chuks
28th Oct 2016, 14:02
I had a friend from high school with whom I would actually drink tea! On the other hand, yes, I also hung with a crowd of smelly dope-smokers ... the whole tutti-frutti, including listening to Bob Dylan with devout attention to all his insights. We were going to change the world, except that it never slowed down enough for us to catch it.

Not long afterwards, though, my straight-arrow friend had become a devout smoker of the sacred ganja, for fun; he also used LSD, but "only for guidance."

This guy with a Master's from Northwestern University ended up being canned from a job driving a school bus in our small town, because he kept getting lost. Pah-thetic!

Can dope fry your brain? Yes, I think it can, because I saw it happen to my friend. Is dope a gateway drug, though? Not necessarily.

Take warning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApWCaL-NeJA

Peter-RB
28th Oct 2016, 14:06
I think I will stick to the juice of Juniper Berries, along with corn Juices and craftsman altered Grape Juice..seems to work big style for me and my pals..;)

Blacksheep
28th Oct 2016, 14:11
The mind is such an amazing thing in its natural state. Why would anyone want to alter it?

Unless they're persuaded to do so by someone wanting to exploit them for financial gain. His methods may be crude and distasteful, but perhaps President Duterte has a point?

meadowrun
28th Oct 2016, 14:38
The mind is such an amazing thing in its natural state. Why would anyone want to alter it?


Seems people have been doing just that from the beginnings of time. The Egyptians invented beer - not because they didn't like Nile water. The Germans celebrate it in rowdy festivals, the French don't drink wine for the fruit juice content and so many summer afternoon's are graced with tall G&Ts on the lawns. Seems it's part of being human.


Please do differentiate between those things harmless in moderation and the hard stuff that is just there to totally alter your existence - or try to. That's a phantom world that you can never really touch. There is no instant railroad to hell from toking the bud for the vast, vast majority of users. Just like those who drink do not all end up straightjacketed in a padded cell after going on a bender and deciding to practice some target shooting on moving objects. Everyone is an individual with individual reactions to anything. Legalizing pot will not bring on Armageddon, might actually improve quite a few things in the end.

ExXB
28th Oct 2016, 15:53
In my youth I was given a book. A Child's Garden of Grass

I vividly recall Chapter 21 "Dangers of Pot". After turning the page, a single phrase:

GETTING BUSTED

Turn the page again to Chapter 22.

True to this day, for most people.

Morphine, derived from the same source as heroin, is classed by the WHO as an essential drug. Drugs derived from marijuana are illegal and their use prescribed. Why?

VP959
28th Oct 2016, 19:30
Seems people have been doing just that from the beginnings of time. The Egyptians invented beer - not because they didn't like Nile water. The Germans celebrate it in rowdy festivals, the French don't drink wine for the fruit juice content and so many summer afternoon's are graced with tall G&Ts on the lawns. Seems it's part of being human.


Please do differentiate between those things harmless in moderation and the hard stuff that is just there to totally alter your existence - or try to. That's a phantom world that you can never really touch. There is no instant railroad to hell from toking the bud for the vast, vast majority of users. Just like those who drink do not all end up straightjacketed in a padded cell after going on a bender and deciding to practice some target shooting on moving objects. Everyone is an individual with individual reactions to anything. Legalizing pot will not bring on Armageddon, might actually improve quite a few things in the end.
Indeed thay have, and not just humans, either. Plenty of other animals deliberately seek out intoxicating substances, like elephants eating Marula fuit.

Pretty much every ancient culture has a history of substance "abuse", from datura through to hallucinogenic cacti and many, many varieties of fermented drinks containing alcohol. We even have some really exotic historical uses of powerful drugs like belladonna, etc, that today only remain as folk tales of "flying witches" (the reality is that some women found that crushing stuff like belladonna, wolfsbane, henbane etc into a paste on a stick, and then rubbing it on certain sensitive membranes caused enough hallucinogenic compounds to be absorbed as to give them the feeling they were flying).

There are so many stories of relatively harmless drugs (in terms of the risk of addiction and death) being used for millennia that I think it's reasonably safe to say that such drugs are a part of our culture.

There is a world of difference between the use of a naturally-occurring plant or fungus to alter perceptions and the deliberate manufacture of addictive and dangerous drugs, though, and I would include in that list the relatively recent phenomenon of selectively breeding marijuana to produce strains that are many, many times more powerful than those that have grown naturally for thousands of years.

david1300
30th Oct 2016, 01:06
Indeed thay have, and not just humans, either. Plenty of other animals deliberately seek out intoxicating substances, like elephants eating Marula fuit...

What rubbish :p Elephants and other animals do seek out Marula fruit, but not to get intoxicated.

Makes me wonder how much other stuff you post is poorly researched and simply wrong :confused:

Kruger Park Times | The Myth Of Elephants Drunk On Marulas (http://www.krugerpark.co.za/krugerpark-times-3-8-elephant-myth-22760.html)

Elephants Drunk in the Wild? Scientists Put the Myth to Rest (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/12/1219_051219_drunk_elephant_2.html)

david1300
30th Oct 2016, 01:11
It seems that for once Queensland and other Australian states my be near the forefront of change - in this case introducing Medicinal Cannabis:

Updated 13 Oct 2016, 11:50am
Queensland GPs will soon be able to prescribe medicinal cannabis for patients under new laws passed by State Parliament on Wednesday night.

The State Government said the Public Health (Medicinal Cannabis) Bill 2016 provided a legitimate pathway for Queensland patients of any age and with a range of conditions to access legal medicinal cannabis products.

The laws give certain specialists such as oncologists, paediatric neurologists and palliative care specialists the right to prescribe medicinal cannabis from March next year.

Where is medicinal cannabis legal?

Federal Government
Medicinal cannabis use is still illegal and only available through trials and limited special access schemes.
But, earlier this year, the Federal Government passed legislation legalising the cultivation of cannabis for medicinal purposes.

Queensland
Queensland doctors will soon be able to prescribe it for their patients' treatment. New laws will give certain specialists including oncologists, paediatric neurologists and palliative care specialists the right to prescribe medicinal cannabis from March 2017. Other doctors would be able to apply to Queensland Health for permission to prescribe the drug for patients with certain conditions.

Tasmania
The State Government announced in April specialist medical practitioners would be allowed to prescribe the drug to patients suffering serious and chronic illness from 2017.

NSW
In July, NSW Premier Mike Baird said 40 children in the state with the most severe cases of drug-resistant epilepsy would now have access to a cannabis-based treatment under a compassionate access scheme.
NSW is conducting a trial for patients suffering vomiting and nausea as a result of chemotherapy.

Western Australia
The WA Government previously said it would not conduct medicinal cannabis trials until it received the results of testing in New South Wales.

Northern Territory
Not legal.

South Australia
In April, SA Health Minister Jack Snelling ruled out changing the law in South Australia at this stage.

Victoria
It's legal here. It was the first state to pass legislation legalising the use of medicinal cannabis.
Other doctors, including GPs, would be able to apply to Queensland Health for permission to prescribe the drug for patients with certain conditions.

Medicinal cannabis: New laws allow access for Queensland patients of any age - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-13/medicinal-cannabis-new-laws-allow-access-qld-patients-any-age/7927944)

david1300
30th Oct 2016, 01:13
And from further on in that same report:

Medicinal cannabis local supply needed

Civil libertarians want the Queensland Government to work towards establishing a local industry to supply medicinal cannabis.

Queensland Council for Civil Liberties spokesman Michael Cope said the legislation would be of no use if steps were not taken to secure a supply.

"Our understanding is it's extremely difficult to get hold of because it's only manufactured in a few countries and it's being sold into other markets," he said.

"I wouldn't be surprised that it would be extremely expensive - it's a simple case of supply and demand."
There are limited medicinal cannabis schemes in New South Wales and Victoria.

Internationally, medicinal cannabis has been approved for use in Austria, Canada, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Germany, Israel, Italy, New Zealand, Spain, Sweden and the United States.

david1300
30th Oct 2016, 01:22
There are also licensed Hemp farmers in Queensland (and I believe elsewhere in Australia) that are currently in discussions with government about including medicinal cannabis as a crop they can cultivate. It will probably take until early to mid next year for the guidelines, rules and regulations to be finalised, but there also needs to be account taken of the TGA process (more or less equivalent to FDA in USA) as this develops further.

https://www.tga.gov.au/presentation-medicinal-cannabis-whats-happening

The exciting thing is that it seems that the availability and control of medicinal cannabis won't fall under the commercial control of big pharmaceutical companies. We can only hope that this is the case. These companies will probably try and stall the full scale introduction until they find a way to get their greedy commercial paws to control supply. I hope that their influence over western governments does not prevent the quick and widespread availability of medicinal cannabis.

Brian Abraham
30th Oct 2016, 06:30
What rubbish Elephants and other animals do seek out Marula fruit, but not to get intoxicatedMaybe not on purpose (drunk that is) but video seems to suggest it does happen. Who to believe?

TsDbEv019Ho

VP959
30th Oct 2016, 10:55
What rubbish :p Elephants and other animals do seek out Marula fruit, but not to get intoxicated.

Makes me wonder how much other stuff you post is poorly researched and simply wrong :confused:

Kruger Park Times | The Myth Of Elephants Drunk On Marulas (http://www.krugerpark.co.za/krugerpark-times-3-8-elephant-myth-22760.html)

Elephants Drunk in the Wild? Scientists Put the Myth to Rest (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/12/1219_051219_drunk_elephant_2.html)
My source was from a David Attenborough wildlife programme years ago, that showed elephants that were clearly intoxicated after eating this fruit.

Maybe that source was wrong, maybe it wasn't, but most animals are pretty damned good at avoiding foods that make them ill, so why wouldn't elephants avoid eating Marula fruit if the consequences were unpleasant for them?

The rest of my post you refer to is, to the best of my knowledge, true. Feel free to debunk it though.

racedo
30th Oct 2016, 15:16
The issue of medicinal cannabis is one that must admit not having issues with as provided it is prescribed by pharmacists who know its strength then it is just another prescription drug.

VP959
30th Oct 2016, 15:28
The issue of medicinal cannabis is one that must admit not having issues with as provided it is prescribed by pharmacists who know its strength then it is just another prescription drug.
I think one problem that's been encountered is that marijuana varies a great deal in terms of its active constituents, so one form of medicinal extract available by prescription may well not be any use for some patients.

The bigger problem (apart from the legality) is that there's no money for the drug companies in doing this. Any approved extract would have to be tested for safety, side effects etc, just like any other prescription drug, yet the pharma companies wouldn't be able to charge a high price for the product, just because it's available on the street relatively cheaply.

I can't see any government funding the approval of a marijuana extract so that it could be made available under prescription, either.

ExXB
30th Oct 2016, 17:17
The bigger problem (apart from the legality) is that there's no money for the drug companies in doing this. Any approved extract would have to be tested for safety, side effects etc, just like any other prescription drug, yet the pharma companies wouldn't be able to charge a high price for the product, just because it's available on the street relatively cheaply.

{cough} Big Pharma is certainly into pushing Oxycodone (etc.) when a cheaper alternative (heroin) is about.

They would leap at an opportunity to screw the consumer, yet again. The sad fact is that they are not interested because it isn't addictive.

Guptar
31st Oct 2016, 08:39
I read this thread with a mix of amusement and despair. It seems that all the posters to date have, at best no clue as to what they are talking about, or worst, apologists for the drug culture that has invaded mankind.

I speak from family experience and a close relative who is a geneticist.

Firstly, medicinal Cannabis.

There are some 750 different compounds in the pot family. Only one gets you "high". Medicinal Cannabis does not have the compound that gets you high. Drug fans often tout a joint as medicine. That is only a way they try to make pot "ok" as a social norm.

That one compound that gets you high is a Geno Toxin. It causes DNA to change. The user probably wont see its effects, but 7 generations down the line we will see an explosion of birth defects. Damaged DNA replicates, getting more damaged with each generation.

Chronic use of pot fries your brain. My partners ex who is 48 has the memory of a 80 year old. My 21 y/o step son is already showing signs of early onset dementia. He has been a chronic pot user for 6 years.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/behindtheheadlines/news/2016-05-26-could-cannabis-damage-dna-that-is-then-passed-down-generations/

Studies are being released, of course they will be attacked, funnily enough, the most unlikely people are pot users. Guess who attacks the validity of the reports.

Chronic abuse of pot has a disastrous effect on the mental health of some people. Friends who work in Mental Health in Denver tell me there has been an explosion in their workload since pot was legalized.

Anyone who thinks pot is harmless is just kidding themselves and gambling that their grandchildrens grandshildren won't be born with 3 legs.

meadowrun
31st Oct 2016, 08:49
Oh Fess up Guptar, you co-produced this little gem, didn't you?


http://flashbak.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/refer-madness-12.jpg

VP959
31st Oct 2016, 09:04
I read this thread with a mix of amusement and despair. It seems that all the posters to date have, at best no clue as to what they are talking about, or worst, apologists for the drug culture that has invaded mankind.

I speak from family experience and a close relative who is a geneticist.

Firstly, medicinal Cannabis.

There are some 750 different compounds in the pot family. Only one gets you "high". Medicinal Cannabis does not have the compound that gets you high. Drug fans often tout a joint as medicine. That is only a way they try to make pot "ok" as a social norm.

That one compound that gets you high is a Geno Toxin. It causes DNA to change. The user probably wont see its effects, but 7 generations down the line we will see an explosion of birth defects. Damaged DNA replicates, getting more damaged with each generation.

Chronic use of pot fries your brain. My partners ex who is 48 has the memory of a 80 year old. My 21 y/o step son is already showing signs of early onset dementia. He has been a chronic pot user for 6 years.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/behindtheheadlines/news/2016-05-26-could-cannabis-damage-dna-that-is-then-passed-down-generations/

Studies are being released, of course they will be attacked, funnily enough, the most unlikely people are pot users. Guess who attacks the validity of the reports.

Chronic abuse of pot has a disastrous effect on the mental health of some people. Friends who work in Mental Health in Denver tell me there has been an explosion in their workload since pot was legalized.

Anyone who thinks pot is harmless is just kidding themselves and gambling that their grandchildrens grandshildren won't be born with 3 legs.
That's a very disparaging view of many of is, and as a scientist I take it as an insult to my intelligence and integrity.

I agree that there are many compounds in marijuana, and only some have a beneficial effect when treating some diseases. My friends wife with MS does have a very significant reduction in tremors with small oral marijuana intake, so much so that she can get some sleep at night. Previously a wide range of conventional drugs had been tried that were ineffective. Others with MS have had very similar findings, so it seems clear that one, or some, of the many compounds within marijuana are beneficial in treating the symptoms of this disease.

Others have found that they get pain relief from using marijuana that they cannot get from other drugs, or at least not without unpleasant side effects, such as the effect of opiates on the bowel and transit rate, which for many who are already of limited mobility can cause obstructive constipation.

You've used some wide-ranging terms with open and unqualified definitions, such as "chronic abuse of pot has a disastrous effect on the mental health of some people". That simple isn't true for natural strains of marijuana that were around before the illegal growers started selectively breeding female plants for very high levels of certain compounds. Chronic marijuana use is common in some countries, and has been for hundreds of years, yet there is, apparently, no greater incidence of mental health issues there, nor any evidence at all that marijuana use causes genetic defects, than elsewhere.

When I was 15, in the Senior Scouts (as they were called then) we went on an overland expedition across Spain to Morocco and up into the Atlas mountains. Our Moroccan guide smoked marijuana during every rest break, much to our amusement as kids. It was very common to see the locals sit down and smoke a bit of weed, in much the same way as we'd have stopped for a cigarette (except our Leader wouldn't let us smoke as we were were too young..........).

I would certainly agree that many of the selectively bred female strains are potentially harmful, but they have come about because an illegal market has wanted to push stronger (and far more expensive) drugs to their marketplace.

Back in the late 60's and through the 70's, when I was a regular marijuana user, I heard of no one, not a single person, ever having adverse effects from the strains of marijuana that were available then. We used to joke at the time that the most harmful stuff in a joint was the tobacco, and it was me giving up smoking that led to me stopping the use of marijuana, solely because of the harmful effects of tobacco.

We didn't start to hear about people having wild delusions or mental health issues from marijuana use then at all, but we did around 20 years later, when the really potent strains that had been selectively bred started to hit the streets.

My view has always been that things taken in moderation are generally OK, and that problems arise when things are taken in excess. In the case of marijuana, the naturally occurring strains that were commonly available until around 1990 were proven, by multiple double blind trials, to have no significant harmful effects. That view is supported by millions of users globally, with use going back hundreds of years.

Equally, I'm certain that has changed with the massive increase in potency that has occurred with selectively bred plants, and there is certainly anecdotal evidence that these strains may be harmful if taken for prolonged periods.

Guptar
31st Oct 2016, 09:16
I apologize if I wasn't clear regarding medicinal cannabis, the non get high compounds are are becoming increasingly accepted as legitimate and effective therapies in the medical community.

But I stand behind my remarks on mental health and pot smokers. I have seen it first hand and the evidence from Denver alone is inarguable.

VP959
31st Oct 2016, 09:50
I apologize if I wasn't clear regarding medicinal cannabis, the non get high compounds are are becoming increasingly accepted as legitimate and effective therapies in the medical community.

But I stand behind my remarks on mental health and pot smokers. I have seen it first hand and the evidence from Denver alone is inarguable.
Again you're being very general, and condemning a whole raft of different drugs as if they were all the same.

I have no idea how many strains of marijuana there are today; certainly hundreds more than there were in my youth. Back then we either had Afghan or Moroccan as generic types, with no clear evidence as to where any of it had come from. What we did know for sure was that this was the same stuff that had been used for hundreds of years, and had been shown to be relatively harmless.

At that time, the lawmakers were intent on trying to prove, in the face of very strong arguments from the pro-marijuana lobby, that it was harmful. Governments poured millions into trials, yet could find no conclusive evidence at all (then) that marijuana was harmful, or had long-term effects on mental health.

Your remarks need to be heavily qualified to have some degree of truth. There is evidence that some, selectively-bred, strains of marijuana can cause short and long term health effects. However, it's clear that it's the abuse of these very strong strains that is the problem, not the naturally occurring plant that's been grown and smoked for centuries.

It's a bit like alcohol. Most of us could get away with drinking a handful of glasses of wine a week for life, with no ill effect at all. However, if we drank a handful of bottles of Spirytus Rektyfikowany (a strong Polish vodka) a week we would probably be in a mental institution within weeks and dead a few months after that.

ExXB
31st Oct 2016, 12:45
Research into marajuana's medical benefits is prohibited just about everywhere. Why? Because possession is a crime, just about everywhere.

racedo
31st Oct 2016, 14:28
Anyone who thinks pot is harmless is just kidding themselves

Au contraie Guptar

Unusually for a JB thread this has had decent amount on input where it hasn't gone off on a complete tangent discussing Aliens or Brexit by the end of Page 1.

There are people on here who will be regular users, ex users, soon to be users and boring gits like me and others who will never be users.

I have lost count of number of people I or my friends and contemporaries have known who have committed suicide. A significant enough proportion of whom I knew had used or abused illicit substances in the past.

I don't know if that was connected, my own opinion is yes but can't prove it.

Lighten up..................... that's lighten up, not light up.

Dan_Brown
1st Nov 2016, 06:40
I am unable to get my head around the fact, drugs are not legalized. Too many vested interests in keeping it illegal. Of this I am sure.

If they want drugs they are going to get them. The police will never stop it, as they wont stop prostitution.

Legalize it, then it would be under some sort of control, the criminal element would be eliminated and the government would get the tax.

I read somewhere that half of police time is used chasing drug related crime.

Legalizing the stuff would be a win win for us all. Of I forgot to mention it would top up the gene pool. If they want to blow their heads off on drugs, let them (preferably before they breed) as we have too many people anyway. Natural selection I call it.

WstCstCmtr
1st Apr 2017, 01:22
It has always been considered a gateway drug.
Always... since the 80s... 1980s. Or the 1930s if you really want to stretch it.

That is not always.

Octane
1st Apr 2017, 02:39
"Marijuana is not a problem. Why do most of the world's nation states insist it is?"

I strongly disagree and think that's a simplistic, naive statement...

Smoking dope was common when I was at university 30 odd years ago. None of my friends as far as I know went on to stronger drugs as a result.
Of the say dozen of us;

nowadays perhaps 3 of them enjoy the occasional joint, the rest?

1 chronic smoker has lost the plot completely, fixated with conspiracy stories (911 didn't happen, chemtrails, moon landings didn't happen etc). Impossible to have a sane conversation with him.

1 Chronic smoker started hearing voices. The TV was telling him he was responsible for the the Gulf War etc. His close friends got him back to the family sheep farm where he spent 3 years off the dope helping his Dad run the farm. He made a full recovery and 15 years later has a great career, family etc.

I stopped smoking the stuff 30 years ago because every time I got stoned I became incredibly depressed.

One of best friends is completely addicted to the stuff. Smokes vast quantities each day after work. He wants to give it up, has done so for years but is psychologically addicted and also addicted to the tobacco his mixes it with. He also has conspiracy theory tendancies. His lungs are absolutely f&*ked. His hacking, lengthy, violent coughs bring me to tears..

So when people tell me dope is harmless, I know it's bullshit, I've seen what it can and has done to close friends...

Note: I'm referring to smoking the stuff, medicinal Marijuana I know nothing about and may well be beneficial to sick people....

RatherBeFlying
1st Apr 2017, 03:03
Smoking tobacco killed both my father and grandfather at 51.

meadowrun
1st Apr 2017, 04:38
Excess in anything will likely cause problems. We are not hearing horror stories from states that have legalized use as this country creeps towards legalization (Jul18). Taking bloody forever even tho' there is a long established protocol for dispensing alcohol to all and sundry. Meanwhile alcohol continues to severely impact the population in various manners and tobacco is still legal. It's life, you take your chances. The end is always the same.

HeartyMeatballs
1st Apr 2017, 07:52
Tobacco killed my father. Alcohol killed my aunt.

Legalising means lovely tax revenue and less wasted police time chasing minor offences freeing up time to catch the killers and burglars.

G0ULI
1st Apr 2017, 11:15
As many as nine out of ten theft and burglary offences can be directly linked to illegal drug use and the need to finance the habit. Just a minor consequence? Well the 50 million of cocaine washed up on the beaches of Norfolk would have all had to be paid for somehow and the majority of that money would have come from the proceeds of crime. That amount probably represents a day or so supply for a city like London. So there are incredible amounts of money being siphoned out of the economy due to illegal drug use. Everybody ends up paying either due to personal loss or damage to property or through higher insurance premiums and the overall fear of becoming a victim of crime.

Marijuana is extremely harmful, even more so than tobacco due to a complete lack of quality control and the tendency to smoke it without filters. Marijuana mixed with tobacco is inhaled deeply by users to get the best hit. That carries cancer forming chemicals deeper into the lungs where they are more likely to cause disease.

Then there are the mental issues caused by drug abuse. Even a few weeks of marijuana use causes clearly detectable mental and personality changes in users.

Marijuana is the gateway drug to even more harmful and addictive substances. Nobody wakes up one morning and thinks that they will start out by injecting heroin. It is a progressive condition that starts with experimenting with 'mild' drugs. That alone is reason enough to keep marijuana on the banned list.

VP959
1st Apr 2017, 11:30
As many as nine out of ten theft and burglary offences can be directly linked to illegal drug use and the need to finance the habit. Just a minor consequence? Well the 50 million of cocaine washed up on the beaches of Norfolk would have all had to be paid for somehow and the majority of that money would have come from the proceeds of crime. That amount probably represents a day or so supply for a city like London. So there are incredible amounts of money being siphoned out of the economy due to illegal drug use. Everybody ends up paying either due to personal loss or damage to property or through higher insurance premiums and the overall fear of becoming a victim of crime.

Marijuana is extremely harmful, even more so than tobacco due to a complete lack of quality control and the tendency to smoke it without filters. Marijuana mixed with tobacco is inhaled deeply by users to get the best hit. That carries cancer forming chemicals deeper into the lungs where they are more likely to cause disease.

Then there are the mental issues caused by drug abuse. Even a few weeks of marijuana use causes clearly detectable mental and personality changes in users.

Marijuana is the gateway drug to even more harmful and addictive substances. Nobody wakes up one morning and thinks that they will start out by injecting heroin. It is a progressive condition that starts with experimenting with 'mild' drugs. That alone is reason enough to keep marijuana on the banned list.

I was a regular marijuana user for around 20 years. Never, not once, was I tempted to buy something more dangerous. It's like saying smoking is a gateway to alcohol abuse, just patent nonsense.

Illegality IS a gateway to many other illegal substances, without a doubt. The same dealers that are selling marijuana are also selling, and promoting, a wide range of drugs. Make marijuana legal and that problem goes away, along with the crime that's associated with it.

The health risks have been done to death earlier in this thread. Suffice to say that there is zero evidence that the original, native marijuana that has been around for centuries, and which I smoked for years, has any harmful effects. The same is not true of the stuff that's been selectively bred by illegal drug dealers.

megan
2nd Apr 2017, 06:42
Tobacco killed my father. Alcohol killed my aunt.And irresponsible consumption of food will kill you just as quick, from obesity to anorexia. Hell of a world we live in ain't it? So many ways to kill ones self.

parabellum
2nd Apr 2017, 12:31
In the mid eighties the medical insurance company that provided our free, (to us), insurance cover insisted that we attend a seminar once a year where their doctors could bang home their various messages. The two that I remember very clearly are: 1). If you can't remember the last day when you didn't have a drink you are not necessarily alcoholic but may well be becoming alcohol dependent and 2). A modest amount of Marijuana will do considerably more brain damage than a modest amount of alcohol.

SARF
2nd Apr 2017, 19:08
I don't care what people smoke , inject, drink or snort. Legalise the lot, tax it, sell it in small quantities and as mentioned, none of the looney stuff.
My biggest concerns with weed are that it affects young people mentally far more than mature adults..
We have a situation where middle aged people are taking cocaine with their furred up arteries and dodgy tickers, and youth are wrecking their developing minds by being monged out on weed. The drugs should be the other way round ..

Also with teenagers it's pretty tough to get them up and about and involved in what most people agree are healthy teen pursuits, team sports, clubs , racing karts, gliding, hiking. Blah blah blah .. when they are smacked up,on weed they are even more useless than usual

SARF
2nd Apr 2017, 19:09
Oh yes and the stuff stinks

mr fish
2nd Apr 2017, 21:50
as per the last post...


personally, and not caring a toss regarding "benefits" or otherwise, I cannot stand dopeheads and their "so cool" habits.


here's a newsflash...IT SMELLS LIKE DOGSHIT..and so do dopeheads.


also, just try living on a street where a house has a ahem, "grow on".


every time said "grow" is ready for harvest, you can smell the godawful stuff streets away...I know.

rottenray
3rd Apr 2017, 00:49
What about the mental health problems caused by regular use of the more potent strains of marijuana? Not only do they actually cause harm to the user, but the rest of us have to pick up the tab for their care.

If you can link to some case studies that show regular users using ONLY marijuana, ie not in combination with alcohol or other drugs have a higher incidence of needing more than average mental medical care, I'd love to see them.

Bear in mind that some of the folks who reach for the most potent dope are already self medicating to get over or around something in their lives.

Octane
3rd Apr 2017, 08:23
How the hell are 13, 14, 15 year old kids supposed to succeed at school and beyond in their lives if they're smoking dope already? Sadly I know of kids doing this regularly and one lives where I do right now. He's a waste of space stoned gamer and sadly I believe his outlook is bleak.
If you believe dope is harmless fun you're deluded.....

meadowrun
3rd Apr 2017, 13:42
Know any underagers who drink smoke cigarettes?
If you believe alcohol and tobacco are harmless fun, you're deluded....
Kind of a triple standard there.

jolihokistix
3rd Apr 2017, 14:30
evansb, I still feel the title of this thread should have been in quotation marks.


As it stands, your position is made clear in the stated proposition. Surely you were hoping for arguments from both sides, without revealing your own cards too early on!?!?

david1300
4th Apr 2017, 05:06
For anyone who does not believe that marijuana is addictive there is research that shows the opposite. This is not someones pet internet site, but a site that publishes high-quality peer-reviewed research. MMS: Error (http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmra1402309)
http://www.nejm.org/na101/home/literatum/publisher/mms/journals/content/nejm/2014/nejm_2014.370.issue-23/nejmra1402309/20140530-01/nejmra1402309.fp.png_v03



And a study on the effects of marijuana 24 hours after smoking. Note: this was from 2006 :
From the American Journal of Psychiatry http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/abs/10.1176/ajp.142.11.1325
Ten experienced licensed private pilots were trained for 8 hours on a flight simulator landing task. They each smoked a cigarette containing 19 mg of delta 9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), and 24 hours later their mean performance on the flight task showed trends toward impairment on all variables, with significant impairment in number and size of aileron changes, size of elevator changes, distance off center on landing, and vertical and lateral deviation on approach to landing. Despite these deficits, the pilots reported no awareness of impaired performance. These results may have implications for performance of complex tasks the day after smoking marijuana.

If you would like to do your own research read the articles sourced here - https://scholar.google.com.au/scholar?q=effects+of+marijuana&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiwjbam34nTAhXLFpQKHQCODV0QgQMIIjAA - the peer-reviewed papers published by reputable organisations like the Harvard Medical School, for example, and not ones like Is Weed Good For You? 20 Health Benefits Of Consuming Marijuana (http://www.idigitaltimes.com/weed-good-you-20-health-benefits-consuming-marijuana-433939)

Octane
4th Apr 2017, 06:10
"Know any underagers who drink smoke cigarettes?
If you believe alcohol and tobacco are harmless fun, you're deluded....
Kind of a triple standard there."

That's just a bullshit response. I never said alcohol and tobacco are harmless. Upgrade your glasses and reread my post..

Flying Binghi
4th Apr 2017, 06:51
via david1300: ""Ten experienced licensed private pilots were trained for 8 hours on a flight simulator landing task. They each smoked a cigarette containing 19 mg of delta 9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), and 24 hours later their mean performance on the flight task showed trends toward impairment on all variables, with significant impairment in number and size of aileron changes, size of elevator changes, distance off center on landing, and vertical and lateral deviation on approach to landing. Despite these deficits, the pilots reported no awareness of impaired performance. These results may have implications for performance of complex tasks the day after smoking marijuana.""

Whilst The concept of 'peer review' is fairly well discredited now-a-days, the observations made in the referenced study would likely be the same as most peoples real life observations of the average dope smoker.






.

david1300
4th Apr 2017, 08:49
Whilst The concept of 'peer review' is fairly well discredited now-a-days, the observations made in the referenced study would likely be the same as most peoples real life observations of the average dope smoker.

I agree that we can debate the value of peer review, and many would dismiss your un-referenced observation as just your own thought :p. However at least the academic papers are based on well-described processes that can be repeated and the process and results tested for validity.

Which is more than can be said for the random anecdotes in the thread that go along the lines of "I have been ..." or "I know someone who..."

But whats with making your post take up more space by having a white fullstop about 10 lines below your post? :confused: Do you feel more important taking up more space ;):ok:

Smiffy36
4th Apr 2017, 08:57
Cigarettes and alcohol are both legal, as we all know.
So why is there a huge black market in both?
Not just a market, but a fair proportion of it is fake to the extent some of the alcohol will kill you.
The market is there because of a. cost, legal access is expensive, fake and imported can be supplied for a great deal less, but at huge profit to the suppliers. B. supply to those under age.


So now translate that to this 'eutopic' future where you can pop into WH Smiths (UK seller of tobacco) and buy yourself a couple of exotic turbo cabbage fags and a couple of grams of heroine. Cost including tax and VAT? God knows but cheap it's not going to be. Safe? (Well, in the context of it won't be of silly strength, or mixed with talc, but in medicial/metal terms????)

Meanwhile on the corner of Acacia Avenue and the High Street lurks Mr GCSE in chemistry who is selling not only to the under 18's, but also to anyone who doesn't have the massive amount of cash needed to buy from legal sources. Oh and his product has so much more kick.....


In spite of what some think, the drugs supply chain is not going to go away if this rubbish is legalized, they just adapt. Suddenly your more mature clients go legit? Simply supply to the school gates, or increase the wattage of your product, more bang for buck and cheaper? Welcome back customers. You are back in square 1.

Yep, there's an argument that what we are doing isn't working. Working? Define that....? Its having the lid kept on it, to an extent. But legalize it, and you'd better have a really good plan to deal with the consequences.

meadowrun
4th Apr 2017, 12:40
I never said alcohol and tobacco are harmless
Point was that ignorants will do anything to escape - huffing gasoline and spray paint from paper bags, stealing parents prescriptions etc. Weed is one of the less damaging little escapes.


So why is there a huge black market in both?


Taxes and duties.
In the 1700's there was a 129% tariff on tea.
People bought from smugglers.
Want a nice cuppa? - you're a crim.


Time to get real and grow out of the prohibition attitudes. News is - It Didn't Work!

Flying Binghi
4th Apr 2017, 12:40
Via david1300: ...whats with making your post take up more space by having a white fullstop about 10 lines below your post? Do you feel more important taking up more space.

Just a quirk of mine. Being out standing in me field most days gives me a need for space. Lotta country people have that... if i can touch yer with an outstretched arm yer standing to close..;)

Lets try a 10 line space.....









.

Flying Binghi
4th Apr 2017, 13:00
As to peer review...

"...In the past few years more professionals have come forward to share a truth that, for many people, proves difficult to swallow. One such authority is Dr. Richard Horton, the current editor-in-chief of the Lancet – considered to be one of the most well respected peer-reviewed medical journals in the world.

Dr. Horton recently published a statement declaring that a lot of published research is in fact unreliable at best, if not completely false.

“The case against science is straightforward: much of the scientific literature, perhaps half, may simply be untrue. Afflicted by studies with small sample sizes, tiny effects, invalid exploratory analyses, and flagrant conflicts of interest, together with an obsession for pursuing fashionable trends of dubious importance, science has taken a turn towards darkness.”...

...It’s common for many to dismiss a lot of great work by experts and researchers at various institutions around the globe which isn’t “peer-reviewed” and doesn’t appear in a “credible” medical journal, but as we can see, “peer-reviewed” doesn’t really mean much anymore...

...Dr. Marcia Angell, a physician and longtime Editor in Chief of the New England Medical Journal, which is considered to another one of the most prestigious peer-reviewed medical journals in the world, makes her view of the subject quite plain:

“It is simply no longer possible to believe much of the clinical research that is published, or to rely on the judgment of trusted physicians or authoritative medical guidelines..."

Editor In Chief Of World?s Best Known Medical Journal: Half Of All The Literature Is False ? Collective Evolution (http://www.collective-evolution.com/2015/05/16/editor-in-chief-of-worlds-best-known-medical-journal-half-of-all-the-literature-is-false/)





.

Smiffy36
4th Apr 2017, 13:07
"Time to get real and grow out of the prohibition attitudes. News is - It Didn't Work!"

What do you mean by "It didn't work"?

It depends on what your point of view is, and it depends on the aim. Speed control on roads doesn't work.....if you apply some principles. So should we remove them all, and let people do 90 down residential streets?

"Taxes and duties.
In the 1700's there was a 129% tariff on tea.
People bought from smugglers.
Want a nice cuppa? - you're a crim."

Correct thats why there's a black market. So are you suggesting there should be no tax on legally sold drugs? Of course there will be, and therefore the current suppliers will continue to exist, and nothing changes. These are people making a great deal of money on the deal, they don't want to loose that, and they certainly are not going to go legit!

They will undercut and find younger markets just as they do now with tobacco and nicotine and leave society with a host of problems, some new, mostly those that exist now.

david1300
4th Apr 2017, 13:35
FB - noted and thank you. My personal gripe with the 'Clinical Studies' and 'Peer Review' systems are the non reporting of 'inconvenient' results - ones that fail to prove the point trying to be made.

But until something better is proven they are arguably the best we have right now.

meadowrun
4th Apr 2017, 21:23
let people do 90 down residential streets?


No. Some things in life are plainly dangerous. Like heroin and meth and fentanyl. Like drinking anti-freeze. Common sense isn't.


Tax marijuana, yes. But not to an excess. Otherwise you do have a continued proliferation of the black market. They eventually reduced the tariff on tea and the black market disappeared. Remove the profit and there is no business. Just handle it like alcohol. The model is already in place. Just get on with it and stop the manufactured horror stories, it's just silly.

VP959
5th Apr 2017, 09:11
FB - noted and thank you. My personal gripe with the 'Clinical Studies' and 'Peer Review' systems are the non reporting of 'inconvenient' results - ones that fail to prove the point trying to be made.

But until something better is proven they are arguably the best we have right now.

As a former scientist, who worked within Government for much of my career, I can say with a fair degree of certainty that a great deal of the published work from the last 20 to 30 years is likely to be flawed, especially if the underlying research was sponsored by a large company or what amounts to a lobby group (and some charities fall into this category).

The peer review process within many of the lesser-known journals is suspect, and even some undertaken by the handful of world renowned journals is not as robust as it used to be. One problem is that it has become increasingly difficult to find subject matter experts that are sufficiently competent and impartial to review papers in the depth that is required to be reasonably confident that the published data are accurate.

The misuse of statistics is rife, with outlying results that don't fit either the researcher's pre-conceptions, or the requirements of the research sponsor, often being left out of the published data set. Medical research studies, in particular, seem to suffer from this to a greater extent than some other areas of scientific endeavour, perhaps because there are such large vested interests within this field.

david1300
5th May 2017, 03:53
Try and tell these 8 children that marijuana is not a problem. Oh, sorry, you can't because they are dead :ugh:

When Cairns mother Raina Thaiday killed eight children in 2014 she had been clean of cannabis for months, but a psychiatrist found her prior long-term use may have triggered the violent schizophrenic episode.

There is a widely held view within the medical and social work community in Australia that there is a link between extended use of cannabis and psychosis.

While most research is careful not to draw causal links, a study by the University of Queensland that followed more than 3,800 21-year-olds for almost three decades revealed individuals who used cannabis for six or more years had a greater risk of developing psychotic disorders or symptoms like hallucinations and delusions.

The same document outlined how smoking cannabis at a younger age more than three times a week could increase an individual's risk for schizophrenia up to six times.

Cairns children killings: Does extended cannabis use play a role in psychosis? - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-05-05/cairns-children-killings-cannabis-psychosis-schizophrenia/8497294)

meadowrun
5th May 2017, 04:12
Several studies have linked marijuana use to increased risk for psychiatric disorders, including psychosis (schizophrenia), depression, anxiety, and substance use disorders, but whether and to what extent it actually causes these conditions is not always easy to determine.32 (https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/research-reports/marijuana/references) The amount of drug used, the age at first use, and genetic vulnerability have all been shown to influence this relationship. The strongest evidence to date concerns links between marijuana use and substance use disorders and between marijuana use and psychiatric disorders in those with a preexisting genetic or other vulnerability


There are always risks with anything. Thousands of years of usage have gone by without major, repeated, widespread episodes of psychosis


Meanwhile 44 people died in April 2017 in Vancouver from opioid overdoses. You'll get arrested here for possession of pot but not with heroin or adulterated heroin. Everyone is running around in circles to help them use it safely and get them into far and few between rehabilitation programs. not really much point given the recidivism rates. (many stories about people being revived with Narcan only to wake up and ask if they can go now? They have to get some more drugs. Fire rescue crews are spending more time with addicts than at actual fires. Often they are unable to respond to fires due to being already occupied down some alley.


Given these real problems, the relatively recent historical furor over a plant is getting laughable.

Flying Binghi
5th May 2017, 10:02
via meadowrun: ...Thousands of years of usage have gone by without major, repeated, widespread episodes of psychosis...

"usage"... yes, though by who ?

Go back a hundred or so years ago and try working in a Victorian era factory whilst stoned and see how long yer stay alive. Try the subsistence farming that were the lot of many only a hundred odd years ago and see how much food yer can put in the larder for winter when yer stoned... So back then those 'common people' who took a daily toke probably didn't survive long enough to become psychotic. And those dopers that did survive were likely amongst the street crazys and Bedlam residents that people like Dickens wrote of in passing.




.

meadowrun
5th May 2017, 16:43
And yet gin was so, so popular.

racedo
5th May 2017, 23:42
Yep, there's an argument that what we are doing isn't working. Working? Define that....? Its having the lid kept on it, to an extent. But legalize it, and you'd better have a really good plan to deal with the consequences.

Legalise guns and go back to enclaves where you live your life the way you want and your boundarys at 20ft tall are clear.

Take about 10 years but Darwins law will take care of most people in that time.

Also no NHS support for users.

Flying Binghi
6th May 2017, 02:18
via meadowrun: And yet gin was so, so popular.

...and more. Whilst doing a Bange search i found this from 1843...

14 Apr 1843 - HISTORY OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS. - Trove (http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/37117113?searchTerm=Marijuana&searchLimits=exactPhrase%7C%7C%7CanyWords%7C%7C%7CnotWords%7 C%7C%7CrequestHandler%7C%7C%7CdateFrom=1800-01-01%7C%7C%7CdateTo=1935-01-01%7C%7C%7Csortby)

ZFT
6th May 2017, 06:42
And yet gin was so, so popular.

Sold by the pint and cheap.

Heston
6th May 2017, 17:48
Sold by the pint and cheap.
Still is, thank the lord!

Old Nic
6th May 2017, 19:58
How the hell are 13, 14, 15 year old kids supposed to succeed at school and beyond in their lives if they're smoking dope already? Sadly I know of kids doing this regularly and one lives where I do right now. He's a waste of space stoned gamer and sadly I believe his outlook is bleak.
If you believe dope is harmless fun you're deluded.....

Very good point, but I have to ask, do you think his progress would be any greater if he was sozzled on alcohol at that age?

meadowrun
6th May 2017, 20:09
A man in Australia, arrested for possession of marijuana, is using as his defense that it is a plant and plants are given to man by God. Interfere with that and you interfere with his religious beliefs.
Substitute "god" for "nature' and I agree with him. That is all it is. Not a manufactured anything, just something straight from nature.

david1300
7th May 2017, 07:09
Very good point, but I have to ask, do you think his progress would be any greater if he was sozzled on alcohol at that age?

The reality is that the scenario you put forward isn't what the poster was referring to, so introduce as many 'what-if' scenarios as you like to confuse the issue and hide from reality if it makes you feel better.

racedo
7th May 2017, 12:17
A man in Australia, arrested for possession of marijuana, is using as his defense that it is a plant and plants are given to man by God. Interfere with that and you interfere with his religious beliefs.
Substitute "god" for "nature' and I agree with him. That is all it is. Not a manufactured anything, just something straight from nature.

That one being used by Welsh Sheep farmers for decades.

PukinDog
7th May 2017, 13:48
That one being used by Welsh Sheep farmers for decades.

The whole "natural" growing thing was used by those in the Land of the Lotus Eaters since at least just after the fall of Troy, so for at least 3000 years.

If Odysseus had become a blossom-eating stoner like his men and remained there, just being mellow lost in a perpetual recreational high, the Cyclops would have never eaten some of those same men, gotten drunk, and lost his only eye. So much violence could have been avoided. Therefore, drugs are good.

On the other hand, had he and his men remained there until death with no ambition other than seeking the next cool afternoon opium buzz, not only wouldn't there be any great mythical story for the Ages but his wife and son at home would have been needlessly abandoned for the sake of his own temporal pleasure, purposely remaining MIA to their distress, something he or any responsible person ought not do. Therefore, drugs are bad.

Pretty sure this clears it all up.

Brian Abraham
8th May 2017, 01:57
Not a manufactured anything, just something straight from natureThe modern stuff is not to be found in nature, by man's ingenuity he has bred the plant to enhance production of the active ingredient, and is much, much more potent as a result.

RatherBeFlying
8th May 2017, 03:11
People have been using and abusing psychotropic substances since the dawn of time.

Depending on societal environment, some substances occasion more damage than others.

We also see minorities subjected to overstringent policing and incarceration for their minority psychotropic preferences at great expense to the taxpayer and loss of otherwise usually productive members of minorities.

Pretty much every psychotropic substance will ruin a few lives among those who overindulge.

The damage pales in comparison to alcohol and tobacco where many non consumers get killed by drunk drivers and second hand smoke.

meadowrun
8th May 2017, 03:30
The modern stuff is not to be found in nature, by man's ingenuity he has bred the plant to enhance production of the active ingredient, and is much, much more potent as a result.


Like wheat.

megan
9th May 2017, 03:31
Pretty much every psychotropic substance will ruin a few lives among those who overindulge.

The damage pales in comparison to alcohol and tobacco where many non consumers get killed by drunk drivers and second hand smokeThe experience in Victoria, Australia.

Drug driving is a serious road safety issue. In the last five years approximately 41% of all drivers and motorcyclists killed who were tested, had drugs in their system. In comparison, 19% drivers and riders killed in the past five years had a BAC greater than 0.05.

Info from Road safety - TAC - Transport Accident Commission (http://www.tac.vic.gov.au/road-safety)

Alcohol and second hand smoke, at least here, has taken a back seat to drugs.

PukinDog
9th May 2017, 04:48
The experience in Victoria, Australia.

Drug driving is a serious road safety issue. In the last five years approximately 41% of all drivers and motorcyclists killed who were tested, had drugs in their system. In comparison, 19% drivers and riders killed in the past five years had a BAC greater than 0.05.

Info from Road safety - TAC - Transport Accident Commission (http://www.tac.vic.gov.au/road-safety)

Alcohol and second hand smoke, at least here, has taken a back seat to drugs.

Plenty of recent, objective studies done by researchers who are in no way shilling for the tobacco industry OR an anti-smoking agenda examining the 2nd hand smoke issue have come to the conclusion that there is almost no evidence (except in extremely rare cases, let alone the wild exaggeration of 50,000 per year thrown out by the U.S. Surgeon General 25 years ago based on very flawed studies), that it's responsible for people dying.

People are annoyed by 2nd hand smoke. People with respiratory illnesses certainly become distressed by exposure to it. It smells bad. Nobody likes it blown in their face or having the smell in their clothes. But the linkage between 2nd hand smoke and lung cancer or heart attacks just isn't there. Smokers are 12 x more likely to die from lung cancer than lifelong non-smokers. Ex-smokers who became non-smokers are 4 times as likely to die than lifelong non-smokers. But there is no hard research, supported by studying lifelong non-smokers who lived with smokers (usually spouses), that shows they die at a higher rate than lifelong non-smokers who didn't live with a smoker.

I'm not a smoker, but the notion that smokers kill non-smokers in any way relating or equating to drunk drivers killing innocents on the road is ignorant. The evidence just isn't there. I suspect the idea/hoax/ludicrous numbers were originally formulated to turn annoyance at smokers into outright anger to create a societal pariah status of those partaking (because those who don't can now see themselves as victims.. by someone else) while at the same time flawed studies provided handy "evidence" to expand the nature and scope of the massive anti-tobacco company lawsuits at the time.

It's a common tactic for pro-stoner types and dedicated potheads to resort to a tenuous and ultimately useless game of moral relativism with other types of activities instead of just sticking to debating the legalization of pot based on it's own benefits vs detriments. Comparing weed to alcohol or tobacco is really as irrelevant as me comparing the legalization of pot to the Federal ban on the importation and sale of lawn darts, a ban put in place based on how many people lawn darts caused the death of during the course of recreational misuse (which you can count on less than 1 hand). Pot has killed far more people by people doing stupid/oblivious things while stoned be it crashing a car, drowning, bleeding to death after walking through a glass door at a party, napping on train tracks, run over crossing the street to buy more Doritos, boiled alive by fumarole, skiing/snowboarding into trees while wasted, etc etc than lawn darts ever did and yet I can walk down the street and buy a car, water, a glass door, stock in a RR company, Doritos, a trip to Yellowstone, skis/snowboard, yet I can't get a new set of Jarts.

meadowrun
9th May 2017, 05:59
Federal ban on the importation and sale of lawn darts


Luckily most were made by McDonnell-Douglas so were exempt.


I believe it is all a question of threat analysis. Take out the most imminent threat first.
Concentrate on heroin, fentanyl, mdma, coke, crack, ecstasy, crystal meth, ketamine, I could go on.
The leaf is way down on the threat list.

Lonewolf_50
9th May 2017, 20:10
I am with meadowrun.


Our local narco squad (and a few DEA sorts) who I now and again have a drink with are a bit frustrated with the "synthetic dope" going around. The stuff is quite dangerous to many users. The formulae are variable and in some cases toxic.
They all would rather deal with a decriminalized pot, and focus more of their efforts on the chemicals and distribution networks listed above.

meadowrun
18th May 2017, 21:34
Watching a Trump/Columbian President news conference where the latter said we have been fighting the war on cocaine for forty years and with not much effect, so we must try harder.


Do they read their speeches before they vocalize?
And Trump follows on to an FBI question. "The FBI is special, very special. All around the world the FBI is very special".


So getting sick of the Washington vaudeville and the hypocracy of international politics.

tarantonight
19th May 2017, 23:13
Yes it is - a problem that is.

SASless
20th May 2017, 00:39
Having done some Narcotics Enforcement in my time....I would suggest sticking to Dealer Quantities alone might have some benefit....but limited resources need to be allocated where the maximum benefit is derived.

Right now today....in every part of this Country we have a Heroin Epidemic that strikes across all classes of society....and we are seeing Overdose Deaths EVERY DAY.

People are being killed by bad Heroin....again across all walks of Life.

If I were still involved in that kind of law enforcement....I would not even look at a Pot Case unless it tied into a Heroin or other dangerous drug trafficking organization.

I would be pursuing Murder Charges against Dealers when I could trace bad dope back to a Dealer following an Overdose Death Investigation.

MJ use might have some secondary crimes that pose hazard to the general public....but MJ alone is not a dangerous drug in my view.

The Cops need to be able to focus on serious business and Pot isn't it.

meadowrun
20th May 2017, 02:02
Most of the "bad heroin" these days is adulterated with Fentanyl which, pretty much, all comes from China.

Old Nic
20th May 2017, 15:22
The reality is that the scenario you put forward isn't what the poster was referring to, so introduce as many 'what-if' scenarios as you like to confuse the issue and hide from reality if it makes you feel better.

Reel that neck in david13000, the thread has a subject wider than one referred to incident. Drink is more of a problem in society than Ganja, I am alluding to the hypocrisy of one being illegal and the other quite acceptable (to those that equate legality with acceptability), many people refuse to see the absurdity in that.

meadowrun
20th May 2017, 17:47
As we head towards legalization in July 2018, most of the provinces have now started to complain about how much work they are having to do to prepare. Such hardship. Some couldn't design a cardboard box in 14 months. Quebec is whining about having 13 government departments working on it. All this when each and every one already has a well-aged fully set up liquor management system.
New Brunswick is different. They have dived in headfirst seeing it as a revitalization of their slumping economy.

meadowrun
22nd May 2017, 20:45
Somewhat off the tracks...........


"Hundreds of people are expected to attend an interfaith memorial Thursday to honour people who have lost their lives during the (fentanyl) overdose crisis.
It is being organized by the aboriginal Friendship Centre, Jewish Addiction community Services, Union Gospel Mission, Christ Church Cathedral, Providence Health Care etc...etc... It will also feature leaders from Vancouver's Buddhist and Sikh communities."
"People are dying and their friends and family don't have a decent place to grieve and mourn."
The fentanyl fueled overdose crisis killed 931 people last year and 347 as of March 31st. this year.


It is bizarre world we live in when we "honour" mainline drug addicts who through their own actions kill themselves, next to a dumpster in a dark alley or in a suburban middle-class bedroom. While I realize it is an addiction - it is first a lifestyle choice. Where is there any possible "honour".


Meanwhile you will still get arrested for a joint while you will be assisted in injection storefronts, by medics, police, and doctors to maintain and recover from an OD. Arrested for possession of heroin?............perish the thought.

WstCstCmtr
3rd Jun 2017, 16:32
For anyone who does not believe that marijuana is addictive there is research that shows the opposite. This is not someones pet internet site, but a site that publishes high-quality peer-reviewed research. MMS: Error (http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmra1402309)
http://www.nejm.org/na101/home/literatum/publisher/mms/journals/content/nejm/2014/nejm_2014.370.issue-23/nejmra1402309/20140530-01/nejmra1402309.fp.png_v03



And a study on the effects of marijuana 24 hours after smoking. Note: this was from 2006 :
From the American Journal of Psychiatry http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/abs/10.1176/ajp.142.11.1325
Ten experienced licensed private pilots were trained for 8 hours on a flight simulator landing task. They each smoked a cigarette containing 19 mg of delta 9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), and 24 hours later their mean performance on the flight task showed trends toward impairment on all variables, with significant impairment in number and size of aileron changes, size of elevator changes, distance off center on landing, and vertical and lateral deviation on approach to landing. Despite these deficits, the pilots reported no awareness of impaired performance. These results may have implications for performance of complex tasks the day after smoking marijuana.

If you would like to do your own research read the articles sourced here - https://scholar.google.com.au/scholar?q=effects+of+marijuana&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiwjbam34nTAhXLFpQKHQCODV0QgQMIIjAA - the peer-reviewed papers published by reputable organisations like the Harvard Medical School, for example, and not ones like Is Weed Good For You? 20 Health Benefits Of Consuming Marijuana (http://www.idigitaltimes.com/weed-good-you-20-health-benefits-consuming-marijuana-433939)
NIDA is NOT impartial. They have an agenda and find results that fit that agenda.

meadowrun
3rd Jul 2017, 01:43
Now legal for recreational use in Nevada.

Animal Mother
3rd Jul 2017, 10:35
Marijuana is not a problem.

Utter tripe. I deal with marijuana users and the issues they cause (due to marijuana use) on a weekly basis. Significant mental health issues, primarily being as a result of heavy marijuana use being the main culprit.

Do't forget about the drug driving issues, child welfare issues, H&S in work issues, et al.

Why do most of the world's nation states insist it is?

See above.

meadowrun
3rd Jul 2017, 11:40
Moderation in all things.
If you over use most anything, it will cause you problems. If marijuana did not exist in this world, those people - above - would still find something to abuse and create the subsequent problems. Don't single out marijuana to demonize, there are many candidates.


Biggest problem facing the world these days is perhaps the warfare of various types currently sparking around the globe. An argument could be made that if everyone used a bit of weed regularly, the number of conflicts would be dramatically reduced. It's a bloody certainty it wouldn't get any worse.

IcePaq
3rd Jul 2017, 19:10
Marijuana use is already enforced...........by the insurance companies.

This should let the cops go after the really hard stuff.

That said, I feel the US govt. is waiting for all the wannabe marijuana suppliers to go "all in" and then will pull the rug out from under the guys and simply make it state run with taxes and such.

Likely the same will happen to the vapes guys.

meadowrun
3rd Jul 2017, 20:48
Where it is legal, it is taxed.
As far as state run...would you want all your favorite beers, wines and stronger stuff made in government factories run and staffed by your average government worker?


Anyone for a nice TSA lager or a fine Homeland Chardonay?

G-CPTN
3rd Jul 2017, 21:55
As far as state run...would you want all your favorite beers, wines and stronger stuff made in government factories run and staffed by your average government worker?

The Carlisle Experiment – limiting alcohol in wartime (http://blog.nationalarchives.gov.uk/blog/pubs-vs-first-world-war/).

State Management Scheme (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Management_Scheme).

meadowrun
3rd Jul 2017, 23:04
Interesting.
Government meddling has never been successful be it the above mentioned and prohibition. That just led to black markets and gangsters as the prohibition on marijuana has led to production by criminal gangs, small time chancers and countless arrests and criminal records of young folks for possessing a joint. It has never slowed or eliminated consumption yet that lesson until now perhaps was lost on the nanny states. Government, in these cases only fits in for collecting taxes, regulating selling and, if necessary, product quality safety.

EEngr
4th Jul 2017, 01:24
Among some of the other effects of THC already mentioned, it can cause gynecomastia (man boobs) by decreasing testosterone levels. It also interferes with sex drive (at least among men). I'm not a doctor, but consumption during puberty, right when boys are expecting the hormones to kick in and develop some of the needed 'hardware' might prove to have long lasting, if not permanent adverse effects.

So, no thanks. I've got better ways to entertain myself than light up a joint. And if that is going to mess with the operation of my other joint, definitely not.:eek:

meadowrun
4th Jul 2017, 02:11
Each to his own of course.
No one I know of has ever suggested children partake and the laws do outlaw this. Ditto, children should not indulge in alcohol, meth, coke, heroin, huffing paint, glue, gasoline and all the other nasty stuff.

Animal Mother
4th Jul 2017, 08:21
So, no thanks. I've got better ways to entertain myself than light up a joint. And if that is going to mess with the operation of my other joint, definitely not.:eek:

Brilliant!

ORAC
4th Jul 2017, 08:25
No more going on a bender then......

Wyler
4th Jul 2017, 09:54
The alternative is the scourge of what is called 'Spice'.
Last Friday I did my usual shift at a Homeless Charity and we had, over a 2 hour period, 3 Ambulances to deal with a group of 7 young men and women under the influence of this crap.
It is produced illegally, of questionable content i.e synthetic cannabis mixed with fillers including pesticides. The batch on Friday caused simultaneous puking, twitching and 'soiling'. It lasts for about 10 minutes and then they recover, clean themselves up, have a drink and do it again!!!!
We did not call the ambulances as this is a self inflicted injury and, as said, they do come round. However, over time I have seen this stuff gradually destroy individuals and there are a few of our regulars that will not see out the year due, in the main, to this drug.
I agree, no drugs is the ideological solution but that is pure fantasy. However, a more practical solution, IMHO, is to legalise cannabis and the like and control it's quality and production.
These people will use drugs, no matter what. One of the young women on Friday is 6 months pregnant FFS. Never mind what they are doing to themselves (I have limited sympathy) the effect on us all is increasing. One of the Paramedics on Friday said that 80% of his calls from lunchtime to 1900 was for Spice related issues. 2 of the local A&Es were clogged up with these people. I spent Saturday with two city coppers talking about Aggression Management and they said they were dealing with this problem continuously on every shift.
Criminalisation of this stuff is driving it underground and leading to this problem. Other people I work with in the Charity sector, coppers, paramedics, nurses and doctors I come into contact with all agree that legalisation and control is the answer. Not to solve the problem but to make it manageable.
AND maybe you won't have to wait 30 minutes for an Ambulance to deal with that heart attack because it's taking a Spice user to hospital.

EEngr
5th Jul 2017, 21:19
The alternative is the scourge of what is called 'Spice'.

Perhaps the alternative should be some self control.

Granted, if we started with a clean sheet of paper and wrote our laws, marijuana would be way down on the list of harmful substances. Perhaps below alcohol. But if we take the position that people should be able to pursue any high they want, some will take the legalization of pot not as a compromise, but as a weakening by society on the whole topic. And it's OK to take the next step, which might be Spice. Or cocaine. Or Fentanyl.

We are breeding a generation of people who think that they have the right to feel 'comfy' 100% of the time. Even if that requires some chemical assistance. Life is full of ups and downs. And when you feel down (aside from something like diagnosed clinical depression), maybe you should just wait it out until you feel better on your own.

Wyler
6th Jul 2017, 12:57
In a perfect world.
I agree with those comments but what about those who have been the victims of systematic abuse since childhood, what about those who have been thrown out by feckless parents at the age of 16, what about those who have suddenly lost their jobs and homes because of redundancy, what about those who have genuine mental health issues...and the list goes on.
I see about 120 people per week. Of those about 7 or 8 fall into the categories you describe. The others, the vast majority, don't.
I don't like angry drunks. However, I know that banning alcohol will just drive it underground and make the situation worse.
We are where we are and people will not change. Face up to it an control it is my opinion.

jolihokistix
6th Jul 2017, 15:13
Reports of ISIS members smoking weed, teaching children how to behead their captives, and holding auctions for enslaved girls give me no hope that marijuana use will lead to world peace.

meadowrun
6th Jul 2017, 20:07
You think weed is the driving factor for the morons of ISIS?

megan
7th Jul 2017, 01:22
if that is going to mess with the operation of my other jointJoint??? But it doesn't contain any bones!!! ;)

jolihokistix
7th Jul 2017, 02:49
meadowrun, "You think weed is the driving factor for the morons of ISIS?"


No, but you might expect it to be a moderating/pacifying factor.

meadowrun
7th Jul 2017, 03:12
Normally, yes.
But this little band of horrors is way, way, off the anything normal applies scale.


Reports indicate ISIS fighters regularly use Cocaine, Meth and Captagon (Captagon is one of several brand names for the drug compound fenethylline hydrochloride, an amphetamine).
These drugs will be more responsible for their artificially heightened bloodlust.