NPAS thread removed

[Thomas coupling]

There it is.......gone:rolleyes:

[Nigerian Expat Outlaw]

It did get rather vitriolic.........

[Senior Pilot]

Removed by the OP.

[Thomas coupling]

Interesting.

Well then, let's see if I can generate some steam in the old dog anyway............

If one looks on the West Yorks Police web site, it shows a vacancy @ NPAS for a safety officer. Firstly, I thought they already had a safety (and compliance) officer and secondly why is THE safety officer for one of the biggest onshore helicopter operators - earning less than the business services manager?

Is this because the boss man perceives it that way from a priority perspective?

Methinks there is trouble @ Mill. :uhoh:

[ShyTorque]

I recently overheard a rumour that NPAS is being run from France!

Surely not....

[Non-PC Plod]

But TC, you should know that if you haven't had a crash for a bit, it means you are safe. If you are safe already, any further investment in safety is a waste.

Whereas, any investment in business services can be measured immediately in terms of shiny new paperclips on the desk.

Who in their right mind would forfeit shiny paperclips today for the indefinite promise of no crashes tomorrow?:hmm:

[MightyGem]

The 2015/16 Annual Report has yet to surface on their website:
NPAS Annual Reports | NPAS (http://npas.police.uk/about-us/npas-annual-reports)
:rolleyes:

[Thomas coupling]

Crossing the T's and dotting the I's to support a very top heavy organisation methinks.

[MerryDown]

Someones career was maybe being jeopardised by the threads content, last time I browsed the 489 pages of it, was all mostly topical chat about the positives of base closures and service delivery improvements made year on year in real terms.

Pass me coat

[SilsoeSid]

Seriously?

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_4947_zps9vkyyh2v.jpeg

Cymraeg | NPAS (http://www.npas.police.uk/cymraeg)

[Thomas coupling]

:D:D:D:O:O:D:D
Own goal methinks.

[MPAS]

I understand that some people are very proud of their shiny new NPAS/GACH badges and insignia. Maybe the organisation is quite flush and can afford to invest in lots of new badges :hmm:

[Non-PC Plod]

"Badges..... we dont need no stinking badges!" - apologies to 3 amigos

[Thomas coupling]

Oh dear,
word on the street is that no-one applied for the mickey mouse salary that was afforded the Head of Safety role?
What now?
In fact the wheel has just come off this particular management vehicle it seems......
Another own goal methinks........tut tut.
When will senior management at NPAS understand the level of importance aviation has in police work? It's not meant to be an us and them arrangement, never was, never will be. It is a team effort not a police effort.

[MightyGem]

Can't remember if this has been here before:
Statement on NPAS base closures | NPAS (http://npas.police.uk/news/statement-npas-base-closures)

Still banging on about 20 minutes I see.

[Cabby]

Are the 4 planks mentioned operational? when I say planks I mean fixed wing not persons mentioned ;)

[MPAS]

I am reliably informed that the first one 'might' be delivered by April next year, no one knows when it or the other 3 will be operational. Does that mean it will be after the next batch of rotary bases close :confused:

[Letsby Avenue]

I thought DT was Head of Safety? Has he gone?

[MPAS]

Not sure exactly, something to do with changing the role from Safety and compliance to just safety. Less responsibility, lower salary and having to live in West Yorkshire may have something to do with it.

[Thomas coupling]

Letsby, I think there's trouble at mill..............

[predrone]

Drones could replace helicopters in a remodelling of NPAS:

Police Professional :: News :: Drones could replace helicopters in a remodelling of the National Police Air Service (http://www.policeprofessional.com/news.aspx?id=27779)


:ugh::{

[Sky Sports]

Drones remotely deployed from control rooms!!!!!!!!!! :ugh::ugh::ugh:

You would think the police would know the rules about drone operations by now.

[Thomas coupling]

That's it then.....the Safety Officer is no more. Long live the safety officer. NPAS is now without a safety net, but no worries, they'll train a support staff member to do the job for £7/hour.

Let's see what a review of the situation uncovers.... My guess is a pay rise of atleast £10k to a more attractive £53+ to do the job. When will the cops ever learn.......

[airfarceone]

Anyone know what's going on with the NPAS plans for fixed wing? Seems to have gone quiet lately.

[Sky Sports]

Is it correct that the base closures are going ahead as planned and the fixed wing are going into storage until their hangar is finished late next year?

Surely they won't leave huge areas of the country without any cover for 6 months, will they?

[Cabby]

Re cover question:

Area of Scotland is 30,420 sq miles (78,789kms) and only has one police helicopter to cover the whole region.
Scotland Facts and Figures ? Scotland Info Guide (http://www.scotlandinfo.eu/scotland-facts-and-figures/)

Area of Wales is 8,000 sq miles (20,782kms) and only has one police helicopter unless plans have changed?
Wales | wales.com (http://www.wales.com/about-wales/facts-about-wales)

The rest of THE UK has 25 police helicopters to cover country at the last count I believe. Stand corrected if anyone else has up to date figures on the 902 fleet. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Police_Air_Service

Have NPAS ever published any figures which show the standby times for each base. (i.e. Hours not airborne during a 24 hour period, over a month/year?)

[SilsoeSid]

Re cover question:

Area of Scotland is 30,420 sq miles (78,789kms) and only has one police helicopter ...

Area of Wales is 8,000 sq miles (20,782kms) and only has one police helicopter ...
Wales | wales.com

The rest of England has 25 police helicopters ...

The rest of England .... :confused:

[SilsoeSid]

Apart from the fact that Scotland decides what it gets up to policing wise and decided not to have anything to do with a national service, wouldn't it be better to look at population and where it's all at!

England 54,786,300
Scotland 5,373,000
Wales 3,063,456

http://i68.tinypic.com/2mnj8qx.png

http://tinyurl.com/jgfjdxl http://www.npas.police.uk

[Noiseboy]

Drones launched from control rooms would need to be more akin to the sort of thing that gets sent around the world to kill people rather than the toys people generally envisage when drones are mentioned now. In that case, with drone operators employed instead of pilots, and current heli police personnel redeployed to other roles or observing from the control room, there are probably no significant cost savings to be had.

A model whereby cars equipped with a 'camera toy' in its boot, akin to the ARV, could perhaps work for local stuff where a heli (in particular the expensinve machines the tax payer is expected to fund in this country) is OTT, but currently the only available resource.

Wider ranging and more rural stuff perhaps still needs manned capability, although it would be interesting to see what the split of police missions is in terms of 'on the spot' camera jobs and moving ones. Presumably the concentration of bases around population centres tells it own story as to where police air response is most requested?

[predrone]

So, here we are TC. No Safety Manager = a no safety programme . When will management realise what a precious part of an aviation organisation this is? Rumour has it the new management style is "If you don't tow the line, you''ll be managed out". I fear this is the last we have seen of Just Culture. It would appear that it has exited with the Safety Manager. What a pile of CACH!

[PANews]

Not much I can add to the comprehensive review in PAN but to reiterate that the first P68R [presumably with its de-icing certified] is not due until the Spring so is expected to be the singleton at PAvCon in early June. There is plenty of spare hangar space at the airfield so pushing it into [say] the newly relocated Vulcan hangar for a month or two should not be a real problem.

I expect training to take up 1-2 months from [say] the April delivery so it will not be in real service until next summer.

Meanwhile the expected closures of Warton, Tesside and Wattisham will be in place by March..... Rumour has it that Warton and Teesside are already without aircraft and crews regularly anyway so its not exactly a trauma job.

The last two MD902 at Hurn and Carr Gate should be grounded before New Year dawns.:ok:

So I guess it is fair to say that one way and another there will be a massive unpoliced gap in aerial coverage along the eastern counties until at least next June.

Probably more important overall will be the results on this weeks meeting with the PCCs at which [unseen] plans have been put forward that might just see a modest expansion of NPAS into the future.

The fleet is gleamingly newly polished but beneath the paintwork of each 10,000 hour airframe is the base problem of the current fleet.

They were worth about £1M each .... half have had £1M spent on them in upgrades and each is now now still worth just about £1M...... [if you can get it] that sort of adds it all up really. They need an ongoing option to progressively acquire new airframes that will eventually give them a fleet that works as well as it might.

As someone who has delivered 24/7/365 policing on the ground over several years I think I might just add 'Since when has aerial policing DELIVERED 24/7/365 policing?'

[Cabby]

Anyone know how much an NPAS equipped P68R fixed wing costs?
What are the direct operating costs compared to an EC135?

A mention of a UK unit reaching 10,000 hours on police work is mentioned in Wikipedia. How much money will those 10,000 hours cost in terms of money?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocopter_EC135

Regarding the latest upgraded EC135's, if they have 10,000 hours on the airframe, how long do NPAS expect those a/c to last before it becomes too expensive to operate?

[PANews]

I am not aware of the claimed savings being offered between the P68R and the 135 as such information was apparently among the redacted sections of the documents I have seen. The usual claims made for fixed wing are that they might be one third of the price but there are so many variables. One saving of course is thay are two crew rather than three. No room for a third.

Most of the other questions lie in the how long is a peice of string category, difficult to quantify.

The ball park cost of a pre-NPAS unit was £1M per aircraft per year flying around 1,000 hours annually. So a 10,000 hour airframe might be first cost + £1M x10. That is much too simplistic.

As the older airframes, including G-YPOL, have already demonstrated 12,000 hours is no real problem and North Sea helicopters have flown way more than that so there might be time enough with the remanufactured airframes as long as none of them turn out to include the [inevitable?] rogue.

[tigerfish]

As someone who was involved in the development of Police Aviation since the mid 1980's, I remain very saddened by the reduction of effective air support available to the bobby on the beat since the creation of NPAS.
Like many others long before NPAS arrived I had been a strong supporter of a National Police Air Wing. But I had made the fatal mistake of looking at it from an operational viewpoint, better coverage, better training better standardisation etc etc. What I forgot was that in modern day policing Operational efficiency stood for nothing! All that mattered was the cost! Do it for tuppence if you can. Close bases, reduce the fleet, get rid of the enthusiastic thief catchers the only thing that matters is Political expediency etc etc .
But hey ho what does it matter? The rest of the service seems to be going down the tubes as well.
One bit of good news However is that my old unit Nr Bristol will be getting its new home! Combining its base and facilities with the local Air Ambulance. Both units operate the same type of A/C so potentially a better service for all concerned.
To those that knew me, I'm not dead yet! Getting a bit old and wrinkly but at nearly 72 I guess thats to be expected. Still active in my support for Police aviation though.

TF

[tigerfish]

SilsoeSid, Not understood!

TF

[SilsoeSid]

I'll rephrase it TF:
To make something clear so that assumptions aren't being made, I would just like to say that I have only ever posted under this username.
:ok:

[tigerfish]

SOS, Thats fine by me!

History has taught me to always judge my fellow men by the quality of their posts, and my own judgement regarding the independence and unbiased approach of their stance!

TF

[tigerfish]

Its been a long time now since our paths went in other directions but I wish the crews of all the Police - NPAS units a Safe and Peaceful Christmas. Especially those in my old unit at Filton Bristol.
TF

[MightyGem]

Some of you may remember that back in 2014, under FOI, I asked each Force who was then a member of NPAS, what was their total budget for Air Support in the Financial Year prior to them joining NPAS, and what was their contribution to NPAS for the FY 2014-15. The results are below.

While most were paying less, others were paying more, with a few, D&C, Thames Valley, Hertfordshire, were paying considerably more, often for less hours. The total number of hours were down slightly, as was the cost per flying hour. Total national savings were only £3.4M.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/MightyGem/2014-15-1_zpsfhand2yx.png
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/MightyGem/2014-15-2_zpsbmalo2yk.png

In November I asked NPAS what each Force paid them in the FY 2015-16, and the number of hours flown for each. The results, along with what they were paying prior to joining NPAS, are below. NPAS also included The Met, City of London and British Transport, but as they hadn’t joined in 2014, I haven’t included them.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/MightyGem/2015-16-1_zpsxf4ytszx.png
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/MightyGem/2015-16-2_zpsvampsm3r.png

While the majority are still paying less(but strangely two are paying exactly the same as prior to NPAS), D&C, Thames Valley and Essex are still paying considerably more, but for considerably less hours.

The majority of Forces have seen their hours reduced, some by around 50%, but the majority have seen their costs per hour increase. Just look at poor old Cleveland. Also D&C(again), GMP, S Yorks, Staffs and Warwick.

Total national savings have increased slightly to £4.6M, but hours flown have plummeted, and how many of these are 25,30 or 40 minute transit times? Not just there, but back again. The savings in cost per flying hour that had been gained in 2013-14 have been wiped out, with an overall increase of £515.

I'm sure that there are other things to be taken into account, but, since the time before NPAS, we’ve lost all those aircraft and bases for a Service that spends most of it’s flying time in transit for a saving of around £4.5M a year.

[ShyTorque]

This exercise was never going to give an increased capability. It could only ever be a cost reduction exercise, despite the smoke and mirrors. I always said, during my time in the police role, that some would make their careers by increasing the availability of police helicopters, on the grounds of cost reduction and later, some would make their careers by reducing the availability of police helicopters, on grounds of cost reduction.

And here we are.

[ARIS]

TC & predrone - Let's hope NPAS realise that without the existence & confidence in the existence of 'Just Culture' effective safety management will not be possible.
SMS objective = continuous improvement = (hopefully) no accidents via the ability to identify all hazards through staff engagement. No just culture = no staff engagement = increased likelihood for accidents.:uhoh:

[Thomas coupling]

Well what's the latest in flight safety then @NPAS. Well the sign on the door says "SHUT".
No safety manager and the Compliance guy leaves soon. The advert for a safety manager now asks for a degree or equivalent and still only pays peanuts.
Yet compliance pays 10 grand more.....and no degree......work that out.
Of course if anyone, anywhere pops their head above the parapet and criticises - its "engineering out" time folks.
All because the AM hasn't an effing clue how to run an aviation outfit and won't let the aviators in his team a look in. Why - because he thinks its just another police department and won't take professional advice.
All those years of shaping and designing possibly one of the best Safety Management Systems onshore in the UK - come to nothing.
Less aircraft.
Less flying.
Less safety management.
Less morale.

Swiss cheese springs to mind.:ugh:

We are watching the demise of what was once the envy of other European police outfits. Where will it all end? :uhoh:

[Rotate too late]

Fact: This is not the only organisation that relies heavily on LUCK as a planning tool....
(I'm agreeing with you by the way!)

[tigerfish]

Infact , - totally Banjaxed ! Thanks NPAS

TF

[Rotate too late]

http://www.getwestlondon.co.uk/news/west-london-news/proposal-close-100-year-old-12506465

Just sayin......

[Thomas coupling]

So now we finally have movement at the top with a new incumbent joining the management team. Out with the safety position, soon to go is compliance and to fill the gap: a new media officer...thank goodness for that, phew.

And they're only earning £70,000. Outrageous. Only £70k. And they are asking £40+ for a safety officer....tut tut.

[PANews]

The intention of getting out of Lippitts Hill continues.

After the plan to move to Elstree was shot down by a successful NIMBY campaign new places were sought and Northolt was again deemed the favourite.

The news that someone [anyone] wants to actually close Northolt must be a bolt from the blue in that planning scenario. Even though it may not happen soon it was at one time unthinkable. The fact that someone is now thinking it out loud must be a blow.

There are other options, including North Weald, but that has potential NIMBY problems with new house building so they would need to get in quick to be established before the new, non aviation minded, occupants of the new houses affect them.

The police generally are poor at long term planning but if they do not get it together soon they will either be stuck with Lippitts Hill forever or have no home close to London at all.

[Sky Sports]

stuck with Lippitts Hill forever or have no home close to London at all.

Biggin Hill anyone?

[predrone]

TC, harsh words! The current accountable manager is accountable to whom, exactly? Perhaps, he thinks he knows best! Rumour has it he likes to surround himself with those who tell him what he wants to hear, whether sage advice or not. An eight letter word beginning with D comes to mind and before anyone feels I am being rude, I was thinking along the lines of North Korea and Zimbabwe!
On another note, rumour has it that the new P68 will have an endurance somewhat less than the current EC135 T2+. Can anyone confirm this? If so, what will Dyfed Powys and others do? Perhaps, they will buy some drones.:eek::\
Drones drafted in to help North Wales Police crack crime - Daily Post (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/north-wales-cops-use-drones-12548195)

[Digital flight deck]

I wonder where the UK police aviation world will be when we get the next round of "Efficiency" cuts in April.

[MightyGem]

From an FOI request for the 2015/16 NPAS Annual Report, received yesterday:
The 2015/16 NPAS Annual Report will be published in due course.

Wonder what's taking so long?

[Sloppy Link]

Their time is being spent answering nugatory FOI requests..... :hmm:

[MaxR]

Their time is being spent answering nugatory FOI requests..... :hmm:
I think whether the requests are nugatory or not is rather subjective. If an informed enquirer can uncover information which is in the public interest then it is far from futile.

[Sloppy Link]

You are quite correct. I shall retain my subjective view on a case by case basis as I am sure you and others will retain yours.

Subjectively yours.....